Sam Godwin is a second-generation farmer operating a 300-acre organic orchard in north central Washington, primarily growing apples, pears, and cherries. His farm, which is small by industry standards, faces economic pressures in a market dominated by larger operations, and so has adopted organic practices since the early 2000s to differentiate and add value.
Sam is in his second year of integrating practices to enhance soil health and reduce input costs, guided by consultants from Advancing Eco Agriculture. By using sap analysis and tools like compost, clover, and fish products, he has seen significant improvements, particularly in cherry yields, achieving over 10 tons per acre with high-quality fruit.
In this episode, John and Sam discuss:
The challenges of operating a small family farm in a consolidating industry
The transition from organic to regenerative agriculture practices
Improvements in cherry yield and quality using sap analysis
The importance of soil health and cover crops like clover in orchards
The role of proprietary genetics in gaining a competitive market advantage
The significance of succession planning for the next generation of farmers
Additional Resources
To read additional case studies on AEA’s success in cherries, please visit: https://advancingecoag.com/case-studies/
About John Kempf
John Kempf is the founder of Advancing Eco Agriculture (AEA). A top expert in biological and regenerative farming, John founded AEA in 2006 to help fellow farmers by providing the education, tools, and strategies that will have a global effect on the food supply and those who grow it.
Through intense study and the knowledge gleaned from many industry leaders, John is building a comprehensive systems-based approach to plant nutrition – a system solidly based on the sciences of plant physiology, mineral nutrition, and soil microbiology.
Support For This Show & Helping You Grow
Since 2006, AEA has been on a mission to help growers become more resilient, efficient, and profitable with regenerative agriculture.
AEA works directly with growers to apply its unique line of liquid mineral crop nutrition products and biological inoculants. Informed by cutting-edge plant and soil data-gathering techniques, AEA’s science-based programs empower farm operations to meet the crop quality markers that matter the most.
AEA has created real and lasting change on millions of acres with its products and data-driven services by working hand-in-hand with growers to produce healthier soil, stronger crops, and higher profits.
Beyond working on the ground with growers, AEA leads in regenerative agriculture media and education, producing and distributing the popular and highly-regarded Regenerative Agriculture Podcast, inspiring webinars, and other educational content that serve as go-to resources for growers worldwide.
Learn more about AEA’s regenerative programs and products: https://www.advancingecoag.com
Podcast Transcript
0:02 – 0:03
I think we're good.
0:04 – 0:04
OK.
0:05 – 0:06
Hi, friends. This is John.
0:06 – 0:07
Welcome to the Regenerative
0:07 – 0:09
Agriculture podcast,
0:09 – 0:10
where we have all kinds of
0:10 – 0:11
conversations related to
0:11 – 0:13
regenerating soil health,
0:13 – 0:14
regenerating
0:14 – 0:17
the quality of food and
0:17 – 0:18
ultimately regenerating public
0:18 – 0:19
health, which,
0:20 – 0:21
as it turns out, is kind of
0:21 – 0:22
having its moment in the sun
0:22 – 0:23
with
0:23 – 0:25
what is happening politically
0:25 – 0:26
here in North America.
0:27 – 0:28
But it is really coming to
0:29 – 0:31
more greater global
0:31 – 0:31
consciousness.
0:32 – 0:33
More people are aware of the
0:33 – 0:34
impact that
0:35 – 0:36
the quality of the food they
0:36 – 0:38
have that they are consuming is
0:38 – 0:39
having on their own health
0:40 – 0:41
and the impact that it is having
0:41 – 0:42
on ecosystems.
0:43 – 0:43
So
0:43 – 0:45
lots of fun conversations to be
0:45 – 0:46
had in this direction.
0:46 – 0:48
And in this discussion, I'm
0:48 – 0:50
joined by Sam Goodwin in this
0:50 – 0:51
episode.
0:52 – 0:54
And I've been looking forward to
0:54 – 0:55
having the conversation with Sam
0:55 – 0:57
because we live in a moment
0:57 – 0:57
where
0:58 – 1:00
we are we are at the moment we
1:00 – 1:01
are the lowest
1:02 – 1:04
farm income relative to a
1:04 – 1:05
relative price index, we're at
1:05 – 1:07
the lowest farm income that
1:07 – 1:08
we've been at in 100 years.
1:09 – 1:10
Many farms are negative income,
1:10 – 1:12
23 and 24 were very challenging,
1:12 – 1:14
25 is even more challenging.
1:15 – 1:17
And in that very challenging
1:17 – 1:18
macroeconomic context,
1:19 – 1:20
how do we think about moving
1:20 – 1:22
forward with regenerative
1:22 – 1:24
agriculture in that particular
1:24 – 1:25
environment? So,
1:25 – 1:27
Sam, I want to say thank you for
1:27 – 1:28
being here. Thank you for being
1:28 – 1:29
willing to share your story.
1:30 – 1:31
I've really been looking forward
1:31 – 1:32
to this discussion.
1:33 – 1:35
Tell us a bit about your
1:35 – 1:37
operating context, the
1:37 – 1:37
environment that you're
1:37 – 1:39
operating in, the scope of your
1:39 – 1:39
operation.
1:40 – 1:41
Yeah.
1:41 – 1:42
Thanks, John, for inviting me.
1:43 – 1:44
I've been looking forward to the
1:44 – 1:45
conversation as well.
1:46 – 1:48
We're a small tree fruit farming
1:48 – 1:50
operation in north central
1:50 – 1:51
Washington.
1:51 – 1:53
We farm apples, pears and
1:53 – 1:54
cherries predominantly.
1:55 – 1:57
We do a little bit of stone
1:57 – 1:59
fruit too, but nothing really to
1:59 – 2:00
speak of.
2:00 – 2:01
Our
2:01 – 2:04
focus has been to
2:04 – 2:06
really get good at growing
2:06 – 2:07
organic fruit.
2:07 – 2:09
And that's really been the
2:09 – 2:10
journey we've been on.
2:10 – 2:12
We were first certified organic
2:12 – 2:14
in the early 2000s.
2:15 – 2:17
I'm a second generation farmer,
2:18 – 2:21
so started with my father, grew
2:21 – 2:22
up on the farm
2:23 – 2:26
in the 60s is when we originally
2:26 – 2:27
started farming.
2:28 – 2:29
And so I've been doing it a long
2:29 – 2:30
time.
2:30 – 2:31
I've been involved in the
2:31 – 2:32
industry,
2:33 – 2:35
not only with my own personal
2:35 – 2:37
farm, but I've worked in a
2:37 – 2:39
packing shed and learned about
2:39 – 2:41
packing as well as in a sales
2:41 – 2:42
desk, learning about selling our
2:42 – 2:43
product.
2:43 – 2:45
So I've kind of had the chance
2:45 – 2:46
to work from tip to tail in the
2:46 – 2:47
industry.
2:48 – 2:51
Our farm is about 300 acres.
2:52 – 2:55
It's small by tree fruit
2:55 – 2:56
standards,
2:56 – 2:58
and it's in a world that's
2:59 – 3:01
growing almost exponentially.
3:01 – 3:02
It seems like the big farms are
3:02 – 3:04
getting much larger and the
3:04 – 3:05
small farms are going away.
3:06 – 3:08
So we find ourselves in a world
3:08 – 3:09
where the
3:09 – 3:12
family farm and family farmer is
3:12 – 3:14
under this constant economic
3:14 – 3:16
pressure to try to stay one step
3:16 – 3:17
ahead.
3:18 – 3:20
So in that search for
3:20 – 3:21
efficiency,
3:22 – 3:23
we started, we're in our second
3:23 – 3:26
year of, I guess, really trying
3:26 – 3:27
to understand and learn and
3:27 – 3:30
engage with regenerative farming
3:30 – 3:30
and
3:31 – 3:32
take our organic farm to the
3:32 – 3:34
next level is kind of the way I
3:34 – 3:35
like to think about it in terms
3:35 – 3:36
of
3:36 – 3:39
switching to incorporate
3:39 – 3:41
regenerative practices as well.
3:42 – 3:44
I think that
3:45 – 3:46
it's fascinating.
3:47 – 3:48
We've learned a tremendous
3:48 – 3:50
amount in a really short amount
3:50 – 3:51
of time with the help of
3:51 – 3:54
consultants from AEA.
3:54 – 3:54
And so it's really
3:56 – 3:58
really exciting to see SAP
3:58 – 3:59
analysis and see some of the
3:59 – 4:00
tools and see how
4:01 – 4:03
we're starting to apply them and
4:03 – 4:04
ultimately how it's
4:04 – 4:06
transitioning into results on
4:06 – 4:07
the farm.
4:08 – 4:10
So we're just coming out of a
4:10 – 4:12
cherry season where we're year
4:12 – 4:13
two of cherries.
4:13 – 4:14
And
4:15 – 4:17
I saw results that quite
4:17 – 4:19
frankly, were a little bit
4:19 – 4:20
surprising to me from my
4:21 – 4:22
20 plus years experience.
4:24 – 4:26
OK, now now you've caught me.
4:26 – 4:27
I was about to ask you to go
4:27 – 4:29
back and I want to I want to
4:29 – 4:30
learn more about your history
4:30 – 4:32
and how your farm has evolved
4:32 – 4:33
over the last 20 or 30 years.
4:33 – 4:34
But
4:34 – 4:36
now now that we're now we're
4:36 – 4:37
going to save that question.
4:37 – 4:38
Tell us about the cherries.
4:39 – 4:41
So this season's this season's
4:41 – 4:42
cherries,
4:43 – 4:44
you know, we we
4:45 – 4:47
just committed and kind of with
4:47 – 4:49
blind faith jumped into to
4:49 – 4:51
working with Jim and getting our
4:51 – 4:53
SAP analysis and following the
4:53 – 4:54
program.
4:55 – 4:56
And
4:57 – 4:59
not really knowing what to
4:59 – 5:00
expect, but we, we just wanted
5:00 – 5:01
to,
5:03 – 5:04
I really believe in measuring
5:04 – 5:05
and data. And so seeing the
5:05 – 5:07
results at the, at the SAP level
5:07 – 5:08
in the blocks,
5:09 – 5:10
um,
5:10 – 5:12
what, what we've experienced is
5:12 – 5:13
the
5:13 – 5:15
first year we saw results, but
5:15 – 5:16
it was a really short crop.
5:17 – 5:19
So everyone expects to have big
5:19 – 5:20
high quality when you don't have
5:20 – 5:21
any volume.
5:22 – 5:23
This year was, that was not the
5:23 – 5:24
case this year.
5:24 – 5:25
We had
5:26 – 5:27
a full crop.
5:28 – 5:30
So we've averaged across our 60
5:30 – 5:31
acres of cherries.
5:32 – 5:33
We've averaged.
5:34 – 5:36
A little over 10 tons to the
5:36 – 5:38
acre of production volume
5:40 – 5:41
and we've been
5:41 – 5:42
it's big.
5:42 – 5:43
It's good. It's a great
5:44 – 5:45
target for us
5:46 – 5:48
and we're we're averaging
5:51 – 5:54
75 % of the fruit is nine and a
5:54 – 5:55
half row and larger, which is
5:56 – 5:57
most
5:59 – 6:01
cherries you see in a grocery
6:01 – 6:02
store are gonna be 10, 10 and a
6:02 – 6:03
half row.
6:04 – 6:04
So it's
6:05 – 6:07
a full size larger with that
6:07 – 6:08
crop load.
6:09 – 6:11
The most impressive thing about
6:11 – 6:13
it is we've seen our bricks of
6:13 – 6:14
sugar in the cherries
6:14 – 6:18
stay in that 19, 20, 21 brick
6:18 – 6:19
range, which is fabulous for a
6:19 – 6:20
red cherry.
6:21 – 6:23
And our pressures have been in
6:23 – 6:25
the 300s for the most part.
6:26 – 6:27
I was just going to ask about
6:27 – 6:28
firmness. Yeah.
6:28 – 6:30
So the firmness has been has
6:30 – 6:31
been outstanding.
6:31 – 6:32
So as
6:32 – 6:34
a result of that, we've been
6:34 – 6:35
able to
6:35 – 6:38
let our fruit hang a day or two
6:38 – 6:39
longer
6:39 – 6:41
because it's so firm.
6:41 – 6:42
So then you get bigger, sweeter,
6:42 – 6:43
and
6:43 – 6:45
ultimately you get that higher
6:45 – 6:45
yield.
6:46 – 6:47
For for those of our listeners
6:47 – 6:49
who aren't familiar with the
6:49 – 6:50
Firm Tech and the Firmness
6:50 – 6:51
Index,
6:51 – 6:52
can you give us a bit of
6:52 – 6:55
of context for what 300 means on
6:55 – 6:56
a relative scale?
6:56 – 6:57
Yeah.
6:57 – 6:58
So so
7:01 – 7:04
most organizations are saying
7:04 – 7:05
you got to be, you know,
7:06 – 7:08
280 or above if you want to
7:08 – 7:09
export your cherries offshore
7:09 – 7:11
somewhere, which is where the
7:11 – 7:13
typically the premier markets
7:13 – 7:14
are.
7:14 – 7:15
But
7:15 – 7:17
but we
7:19 – 7:20
we saw
7:21 – 7:23
I'll talk specifically about our
7:23 – 7:24
shell and cherries, which is oh,
7:24 – 7:27
it's an early cherry we harvest
7:27 – 7:28
in June, mid -June.
7:29 – 7:30
And
7:30 – 7:31
It's a cherry that we always
7:31 – 7:34
struggle for size, sugar, and
7:34 – 7:35
firmness.
7:36 – 7:38
And this year when we finished
7:38 – 7:39
harvest, our final picking,
7:40 – 7:43
we were still at like 311 on
7:44 – 7:45
the scale. and
7:45 – 7:47
our sugars were 21%.
7:48 – 7:50
So it was an unbelievable eating
7:50 – 7:50
experience.
7:51 – 7:51
And
7:51 – 7:54
ultimately it does nothing but
7:54 – 7:55
thrill the consumer when they
7:55 – 7:57
can get something that's big and
7:57 – 7:59
crunchy and tastes that good.
8:00 – 8:01
And so as a result,
8:02 – 8:04
we saw really high packouts in
8:04 – 8:05
the upper eighties.
8:05 – 8:06
So I
8:07 – 8:08
think that
8:08 – 8:11
that's really was a was a really
8:11 – 8:12
nice or a pleasant surprise.
8:13 – 8:14
And I really attribute the only
8:14 – 8:16
thing that's different this year
8:16 – 8:17
than
8:17 – 8:19
in the past is is trying to to
8:19 – 8:21
really honor the regenerative
8:21 – 8:23
SAP analysis and trying
8:24 – 8:25
to keep things in balance.
8:26 – 8:28
So I want to understand the the
8:28 – 8:30
context of the the 10 tons per
8:30 – 8:31
acre a little bit, because that
8:31 – 8:33
number of what a what an optimal
8:33 – 8:33
target
8:34 – 8:36
might be can can vary widely
8:36 – 8:38
based on tree spacing and tree
8:38 – 8:39
size and so forth.
8:39 – 8:40
So
8:40 – 8:41
What would have been a
8:41 – 8:43
historical expectation for these
8:43 – 8:44
blocks?
8:44 – 8:45
Well,
8:45 – 8:46
normally with
8:47 – 8:49
our
8:51 – 8:53
historical average with Chelan
8:53 – 8:54
Cherries, as an example,
8:55 – 8:57
is probably six or seven
8:57 – 8:59
tons to the acre on a good year.
9:01 – 9:03
Not uncommon to see five.
9:04 – 9:05
Wow.
9:06 – 9:09
So a significant improvement
9:09 – 9:11
because of the volume and the
9:11 – 9:12
size and
9:13 – 9:14
then having the quality
9:15 – 9:17
meant that in a year when the
9:17 – 9:18
market was, our cherry market
9:18 – 9:20
this season, was under pressure.
9:22 – 9:22
A
9:23 – 9:24
lot of people had to stop
9:24 – 9:25
picking.
9:26 – 9:27
Markets were saturated.
9:27 – 9:28
They couldn't move the fruit.
9:29 – 9:30
But by having
9:30 – 9:33
exceptional quality and size,
9:34 – 9:36
we were fortunate enough to be
9:36 – 9:38
able to continue to harvest and
9:38 – 9:40
deliver the fruit.
9:40 – 9:41
crop
9:41 – 9:44
to the consumer, which is really
9:44 – 9:45
what it's all about.
9:46 – 9:47
Yeah, that reminds me of what
9:47 – 9:48
you're saying.
9:48 – 9:49
In essence,
9:49 – 9:51
the comment that I've heard from
9:51 – 9:52
several cherry growers, and I
9:52 – 9:53
think
9:53 – 9:54
Mike Omeg stated it quite
9:54 – 9:55
succinctly
9:55 – 9:56
in one conversation where he
9:56 – 9:57
said that
10:00 – 10:02
The the premium for
10:02 – 10:04
regeneratively grown fruit that
10:04 – 10:06
is higher quality in the case of
10:06 – 10:07
cherries doesn't necessarily
10:07 – 10:08
mean that you have a price
10:08 – 10:10
premium. Sometimes it means you
10:10 – 10:10
have a customer.
10:12 – 10:13
Exactly.
10:12 – 10:14
And that was exactly the case
10:14 – 10:15
and experience this year.
10:16 – 10:17
Yeah.
10:18 – 10:18
Yeah. So
10:19 – 10:21
you've you've been organic for
10:21 – 10:21
quite some time.
10:21 – 10:23
If you made the organic
10:23 – 10:24
transition in the early 2000s,
10:24 – 10:26
that's now almost a 25 year
10:26 – 10:27
period. What has how
10:27 – 10:29
has your agronomic management
10:29 – 10:30
and
10:30 – 10:33
How has your operation grown and
10:33 – 10:35
evolved over that last 25 -year
10:35 – 10:36
period?
10:37 – 10:38
Yeah, so
10:38 – 10:39
because
10:42 – 10:45
of our size and our location in
10:45 – 10:46
north central Washington,
10:47 – 10:49
we never expected our farm to
10:49 – 10:50
become vertically integrated.
10:51 – 10:52
There's not a lot of people.
10:53 – 10:54
We're a long ways from people.
10:55 – 10:58
Our valley is narrow and we
10:59 – 11:01
don't have the big open spaces
11:01 – 11:03
that a lot of the large
11:03 – 11:04
vertically integrated farms
11:05 – 11:07
enjoy in the southern part of
11:07 – 11:08
the state.
11:08 – 11:10
So we wanted to get really good
11:10 – 11:11
at something that we thought
11:11 – 11:12
they would want.
11:12 – 11:14
And so our, our ticket was
11:14 – 11:15
organic.
11:15 – 11:17
So we started learning and
11:17 – 11:20
converting to organic early on,
11:20 – 11:22
uh, relatively speaking to the,
11:22 – 11:24
to the industry
11:25 – 11:27
and, you know, took our learning
11:27 – 11:28
lumps early because there's,
11:28 – 11:30
there really weren't any books
11:30 – 11:32
or any recipes or any help
11:32 – 11:33
to, to,
11:33 – 11:35
to learn the organic techniques.
11:35 – 11:36
or the tricks of the trade.
11:37 – 11:39
So we've learned the hard way by
11:39 – 11:40
trial and error and, you
11:41 – 11:43
know, just continuing to be
11:43 – 11:44
innovative and looking for new
11:44 – 11:45
ways and better ways to do
11:45 – 11:46
things.
11:47 – 11:49
So we've seen our scale, you
11:49 – 11:51
know, the first year on
11:51 – 11:53
the farm that my father started,
11:54 – 11:55
you know, we started with,
11:56 – 11:57
I think it was like a 20 acre
11:57 – 11:58
block that was organic.
11:59 – 12:00
Now we're farming,
12:02 – 12:04
of the 300 acres, about
12:05 – 12:07
225 are organic and
12:08 – 12:11
my brother who I partner with
12:11 – 12:13
has another 300 plus acres
12:13 – 12:14
that's organic.
12:14 – 12:16
So we're pushing about, together
12:16 – 12:18
we push about 600 acres of
12:18 – 12:19
organic tree fruit,
12:20 – 12:21
mostly apples and pears.
12:22 – 12:23
We have a
12:23 – 12:26
small amount of organic cherries
12:26 – 12:27
left.
12:27 – 12:29
At one time, my whole 60 acres
12:29 – 12:29
were organic.
12:30 – 12:31
We've had to pull that backward
12:31 – 12:34
down to where we only have about
12:36 – 12:38
six or seven acres of organic
12:38 – 12:39
cherries left
12:40 – 12:41
because of the problem with
12:41 – 12:43
powdery mildew, which is a
12:43 – 12:45
really tough disease that we
12:45 – 12:46
face.
12:46 – 12:48
My hope is that as we get these
12:48 – 12:49
blocks
12:49 – 12:50
fully
12:51 – 12:53
integrated into a regenerative
12:53 – 12:55
practice and we have better,
12:55 – 12:56
stronger, healthier plants,
12:57 – 12:59
maybe we'll be able to convert
12:59 – 13:00
our cherries back to organic in
13:00 – 13:02
the future once we prove that
13:03 – 13:05
we can manage powdery mildew.
13:06 – 13:08
But that was really the disease
13:08 – 13:09
that pushed us out of
13:10 – 13:11
out of the organic cherry
13:11 – 13:13
business, sir, for the most
13:13 – 13:13
part.
13:14 – 13:16
Yeah, that is interesting.
13:16 – 13:17
That'll be an interesting
13:17 – 13:18
conversation. I know
13:19 – 13:21
there are several cherry growers
13:21 – 13:22
that are running trials right
13:22 – 13:22
now with pinion,
13:23 – 13:24
and I'd like to have a
13:24 – 13:25
conversation with you on that,
13:25 – 13:26
right,
13:26 – 13:27
that as well, because
13:27 – 13:30
what we've seen so far is that
13:30 – 13:31
early days we're still getting
13:31 – 13:32
experience with it but I think
13:32 – 13:34
that one is going to move the
13:34 – 13:35
needle for organic management of
13:35 – 13:38
mildew and various diseases so
13:38 – 13:41
yeah that's that's mildew is a
13:41 – 13:42
tough one and it's it's
13:42 – 13:43
especially hard for us because
13:43 – 13:45
we're so far north we're late
13:46 – 13:48
and what we found is that before
13:48 – 13:49
the
13:49 – 13:50
5th of July
13:51 – 13:52
we
13:53 – 13:55
can manage organically and, and
13:55 – 13:57
usually get an organic cherry
13:57 – 13:58
crop delivered without too much
13:58 – 13:59
problem.
14:00 – 14:02
When you get after the 5th of
14:02 – 14:04
July, it gets really difficult.
14:04 – 14:06
And we pick cherries, I think we
14:06 – 14:08
finished this year on August
14:08 – 14:09
17th.
14:10 – 14:11
Wow. So, so when you go that
14:11 – 14:13
late, it's a long time you're
14:13 – 14:14
exposed to weather and
14:14 – 14:16
opportunities for, for mildew.
14:17 – 14:17
Yeah.
14:18 – 14:18
Yeah. So in,
14:19 – 14:21
as you've transitioned from that
14:21 – 14:23
original 20 acre block, what
14:23 – 14:24
were.
14:24 – 14:26
What have been the cultural
14:26 – 14:27
management practices and what
14:27 – 14:30
have been the things that you've
14:30 – 14:32
learned from experience that I'm
14:32 – 14:33
asking for the benefit of other
14:33 – 14:34
people so they can learn from
14:34 – 14:35
your experience instead of from
14:35 – 14:36
their own?
14:36 – 14:37
Sure.
14:38 – 14:39
So what
14:41 – 14:43
we found is the
14:43 – 14:45
prescription for converting to
14:45 – 14:46
organic is, you know, you got to
14:46 – 14:49
farm it organically three years
14:49 – 14:52
before you convert on
14:52 – 14:54
paper to become an organic farm.
14:54 – 14:56
I mean, that's just the
14:56 – 14:58
legalistic rules of organic
14:58 – 15:00
farming. from the Department of
15:00 – 15:00
Agriculture.
15:02 – 15:04
What we found is that especially
15:04 – 15:05
with
15:05 – 15:08
large canopy orchards,
15:09 – 15:11
you really have to start about
15:11 – 15:13
two years before that working,
15:14 – 15:16
softening your conventional
15:16 – 15:18
program and kind of stepping
15:18 – 15:19
back
15:19 – 15:21
with a good IPM approach to
15:22 – 15:24
build predators and to get your
15:24 – 15:27
orchard ready to start the
15:27 – 15:28
organic transition.
15:29 – 15:30
What we found is that when we
15:30 – 15:31
just tried to go cold turkey
15:31 – 15:32
from one to the other,
15:33 – 15:34
there was usually a train wreck
15:34 – 15:35
in year two
15:36 – 15:37
of the conversion where
15:37 – 15:38
something
15:39 – 15:40
would spike out.
15:40 – 15:41
You know, thinking about pears
15:41 – 15:42
as an example,
15:43 – 15:44
the first year it's like there's
15:44 – 15:46
enough residual carryover from
15:46 – 15:48
the fertilizer and all the
15:48 – 15:49
practices you've been doing
15:49 – 15:50
conventionally.
15:51 – 15:52
that you don't really notice it.
15:52 – 15:54
But in year two, tree decline
15:54 – 15:57
starts and then the onslaught of
15:57 – 15:59
silla and mites and different
15:59 – 16:01
pests come in and it becomes
16:01 – 16:03
very difficult to manage.
16:04 – 16:06
So you end up losing a year or
16:06 – 16:07
two of production because the
16:07 – 16:09
pests get their share, right?
16:09 – 16:10
One way or another.
16:11 – 16:13
But by softening the program for
16:13 – 16:14
a couple of years before you
16:14 – 16:15
start the transition,
16:16 – 16:17
you kind of help give the good
16:17 – 16:19
bugs a chance to catch up before
16:19 – 16:21
you put them on the spot.
16:21 – 16:22
So.
16:22 – 16:23
I guess that's probably my
16:23 – 16:24
biggest
16:25 – 16:27
thing from a pest standpoint.
16:28 – 16:29
Were there any things that you
16:29 – 16:30
were doing specifically to try,
16:31 – 16:31
other than
16:32 – 16:33
softening the chemistries and
16:33 – 16:35
the frequency of applications,
16:35 – 16:36
were there any things that you
16:36 – 16:38
were doing to specifically try
16:38 – 16:39
to build the populations of
16:39 – 16:40
beneficial insects?
16:41 – 16:44
Well, we do beneficial insect
16:44 – 16:46
release as well as sterile
16:46 – 16:48
insect release to help control
16:48 – 16:49
problem pests,
16:49 – 16:51
which is, I think, a pretty
16:51 – 16:51
standard
16:52 – 16:54
practice now that a lot of
16:54 – 16:55
conventional farms are even
16:55 – 16:56
doing some of these practices.
16:57 – 16:59
I think that, I think that,
17:00 – 17:02
you know, the organic way is,
17:02 – 17:03
um,
17:03 – 17:04
finding its way into the
17:04 – 17:07
mainstream in the, in the Apple
17:07 – 17:08
industry, especially.
17:09 – 17:10
So there's companies out there
17:10 – 17:12
for hire that, that provide
17:12 – 17:14
these services on large scale
17:14 – 17:16
to, to many, to many big farms.
17:17 – 17:18
And do you think the pressure,
17:18 – 17:20
where's the pressure coming
17:20 – 17:20
from? to adopt these
17:21 – 17:22
practices in more mainstream
17:22 – 17:23
apple production?
17:23 – 17:24
Is it just as a result of market
17:24 – 17:25
pressures and demand?
17:26 – 17:27
I think it's, I think it's
17:28 – 17:31
85 % market pressure and demand.
17:31 – 17:34
Uh, there's a small group of us
17:34 – 17:36
who are still kind of altruistic
17:36 – 17:37
and we think, you know, if it's
17:37 – 17:38
good for the planet, it'll be
17:38 – 17:39
good for our farm.
17:40 – 17:41
And so,
17:41 – 17:43
uh, but, but because of the
17:44 – 17:45
price differentials that we've
17:45 – 17:47
seen over the last 15 years,
17:47 – 17:49
A lot of people have dipped
17:49 – 17:50
their toe into organic.
17:51 – 17:53
What I tell people is I don't
17:53 – 17:55
think organic farming of tree
17:55 – 17:56
fruit is harder.
17:56 – 17:57
It's just different.
17:58 – 17:59
You're managing it at a
17:59 – 18:00
different point.
18:00 – 18:01
And the biggest difference is,
18:02 – 18:03
is there's no safety parachute.
18:03 – 18:04
If you mess up,
18:05 – 18:07
you're going to damage crop and
18:07 – 18:07
you're going to lose
18:07 – 18:08
productivity.
18:09 – 18:11
Where conventionally, if you
18:11 – 18:12
make a mistake, you can usually
18:12 – 18:14
find a silver bullet.
18:14 – 18:16
And it may not solve the
18:16 – 18:17
problem, but it's going to keep
18:17 – 18:19
you from losing the battle with
18:19 – 18:21
whatever the problem was in that
18:21 – 18:22
in that instance.
18:24 – 18:25
One of the
18:26 – 18:28
observations that
18:28 – 18:30
I've one of the things I've
18:30 – 18:32
observed has been that as as we
18:32 – 18:34
get more plants growing
18:34 – 18:35
underneath the trees,
18:35 – 18:36
particularly in apples, when you
18:36 – 18:37
have
18:37 – 18:39
you no longer have an herbicide
18:39 – 18:40
strip and you have the the root
18:40 – 18:42
system surrounded by other
18:42 – 18:43
plants and grasses and so forth,
18:44 – 18:46
that there there
18:46 – 18:47
can actually be
18:47 – 18:49
beneficial fruit quality effects
18:49 – 18:51
on a number of different apple
18:51 – 18:52
varieties. Have you observed
18:52 – 18:53
this to be the case?
18:53 – 18:54
What does your under tree row
18:54 – 18:55
management look like?
18:56 – 18:57
Yeah, I
18:58 – 19:00
there's there's two parts to
19:00 – 19:02
that question, in my opinion.
19:03 – 19:04
So if we're talking about a tree
19:04 – 19:06
that's under four years old,
19:06 – 19:07
that's where you're still
19:07 – 19:09
growing the orchard.
19:09 – 19:11
It's very different than if it's
19:11 – 19:13
a mature orchard and you're
19:13 – 19:13
producing fruit.
19:14 – 19:15
So in the first
19:16 – 19:17
three or four years of the
19:17 – 19:19
tree's life in the orchard,
19:20 – 19:21
you have to pay very close
19:21 – 19:22
attention to that
19:23 – 19:24
tree row because
19:25 – 19:27
you don't want to out -compete
19:27 – 19:28
the tree with weeds and other
19:28 – 19:31
things. So we spend a lot of
19:31 – 19:33
time and money managing
19:33 – 19:35
weed control,
19:35 – 19:37
especially in young and
19:37 – 19:38
developing orchards.
19:39 – 19:40
It's really, really important
19:40 – 19:41
because
19:41 – 19:43
Most of the modern trees, if
19:43 – 19:44
you're growing high density type
19:44 – 19:47
trees, which are all shallow
19:47 – 19:48
rooted trees,
19:49 – 19:49
that
19:50 – 19:52
top 16 inches of the soil is
19:52 – 19:53
where everything's happening.
19:54 – 19:55
And it's really, really
19:55 – 19:57
important to manage the weeds
19:57 – 19:59
without pruning the roots
19:59 – 20:00
because
20:00 – 20:01
you don't want to stunt the tree
20:01 – 20:02
growth.
20:03 – 20:04
So that's
20:04 – 20:06
the first two or three years.
20:06 – 20:07
Once you have an established
20:07 – 20:09
orchard and an established tree,
20:10 – 20:11
you're absolutely correct.
20:12 – 20:15
We're big practitioners of mow
20:15 – 20:15
and blow.
20:16 – 20:19
Our soils are highly variable
20:19 – 20:20
where we grow.
20:20 – 20:22
It's a glaciated soil
20:22 – 20:24
that is within
20:25 – 20:27
the orchard. We'll have sand,
20:27 – 20:28
rock, gravel,
20:28 – 20:31
and maybe a clay silt all in the
20:31 – 20:32
same two
20:33 – 20:34
or three acre section.
20:34 – 20:35
So
20:35 – 20:37
we really work hard.
20:37 – 20:40
We use a lot of chicken
20:41 – 20:43
compost and chicken feather
20:43 – 20:44
meal.
20:44 – 20:46
That's kind of a backbone of our
20:46 – 20:47
fertility
20:48 – 20:49
program.
20:49 – 20:51
But we also use a lot of fish.
20:52 – 20:53
We use some hog
20:54 – 20:56
and we've,
20:57 – 20:59
you know, we seed a lot of
20:59 – 21:00
clover in the orchard and then
21:00 – 21:01
mow and blow that for
21:02 – 21:04
trying to get
21:04 – 21:07
more organic matter and nitrogen
21:07 – 21:09
because our soils are so poor.
21:09 – 21:10
I'm surprised by that.
21:10 – 21:12
Many cases when I have
21:12 – 21:13
conversations with orchardists
21:13 – 21:14
around recommending or
21:14 – 21:16
suggesting the idea of clover in
21:16 – 21:18
an orchard, that
21:18 – 21:20
produces quite a reaction in
21:21 – 21:22
regards to mole pressure.
21:23 – 21:24
Yeah, our
21:25 – 21:27
soils are so
21:28 – 21:30
old and weak. And we've been,
21:31 – 21:32
I mean, some of my orchards have
21:32 – 21:34
been in orchard for over a
21:34 – 21:35
hundred years.
21:36 – 21:36
So,
21:37 – 21:38
I mean, we have to,
21:39 – 21:40
We spend more money and time
21:40 – 21:42
trying to manage and build soil
21:42 – 21:43
than
21:43 – 21:45
anything else we do on our farm.
21:46 – 21:48
I mean, it's the number one
21:48 – 21:49
thing to have in a healthy farm
21:49 – 21:51
is having good dirt.
21:52 – 21:53
So when you are,
21:54 – 21:55
let's talk a little bit about
21:55 – 21:57
the clover and also any
21:57 – 21:58
other,
21:58 – 22:00
are you, with your, with your
22:00 – 22:01
mow and blow, are you actively
22:01 – 22:02
planting cover crops to
22:03 – 22:05
be able to move those cover
22:05 – 22:06
crops into the tree row?
22:06 – 22:08
What does, what does your, when
22:08 – 22:09
you say that you're spending
22:09 – 22:10
more time and energy actively
22:10 – 22:11
building soil, what does that
22:11 – 22:12
look like?
22:12 – 22:14
Yeah. So, so,
22:15 – 22:16
I mean, we bring in a lot of
22:16 – 22:17
additives from
22:18 – 22:19
like
22:20 – 22:21
perfect blend chicken,
22:22 – 22:22
uh,
22:22 – 22:23
processed chicken.
22:24 – 22:25
So it's, it's basically
22:25 – 22:27
composted chicken waste or
22:27 – 22:28
litter.
22:28 – 22:31
Um, so that's a big source of
22:31 – 22:32
our NPK.
22:34 – 22:34
We,
22:34 – 22:37
we have used a lot of
22:37 – 22:40
there's in our area, there's a
22:40 – 22:41
peat moss or
22:42 – 22:44
there was a peat moss place.
22:44 – 22:46
So a lot of times with new
22:46 – 22:48
orchards, we would bring peat
22:48 – 22:50
moss in to add water holding
22:50 – 22:51
capacity and
22:51 – 22:54
more organic matter into our
22:54 – 22:54
soils.
22:55 – 22:56
We've also,
22:59 – 23:01
in all of our orchards, when we
23:01 – 23:02
plant new orchards and work them
23:02 – 23:03
up,
23:03 – 23:05
I have a plan.
23:05 – 23:07
of, it's a low profile growing
23:07 – 23:08
grass,
23:08 – 23:10
white clover and vetch that
23:11 – 23:12
we like to use.
23:12 – 23:14
And then we mow and blow that
23:14 – 23:15
into the,
23:16 – 23:17
into the tree rows.
23:19 – 23:20
So we
23:21 – 23:22
just can't get enough.
23:22 – 23:24
I mean, there's, it's,
23:25 – 23:26
Transportation is so expensive,
23:27 – 23:28
we can't transport enough
23:28 – 23:31
material or afford to transport
23:31 – 23:32
enough material.
23:32 – 23:34
We just have to try to grow more
23:34 – 23:35
of it ourselves and provide it
23:35 – 23:37
just because of the cost of
23:37 – 23:38
transportation.
23:38 – 23:40
So to give everybody an idea,
23:41 – 23:42
we're located about
23:45 – 23:46
25 or 30 minutes from the
23:46 – 23:47
Canadian border,
23:48 – 23:49
almost in the center of the
23:49 – 23:51
state on the east side of the
23:51 – 23:52
Cascades.
23:52 – 23:55
So we're in the bottom of the
23:55 – 23:56
Okanagan Valley that extends up
23:56 – 23:58
into British Columbia.
24:00 – 24:01
And the
24:01 – 24:04
town I live in has maybe
24:05 – 24:06
the outlying area, the
24:06 – 24:08
population is 2 ,500 people,
24:08 – 24:09
maybe,
24:09 – 24:11
if we count everybody on a good
24:11 – 24:13
day and a dog or cat or two.
24:14 – 24:15
So
24:17 – 24:18
it's a remote area.
24:20 – 24:23
So given that distance that you
24:23 – 24:24
have, both from the perspective
24:24 – 24:25
of bringing in raw materials,
24:25 – 24:27
but also then how does that
24:27 – 24:29
influence your
24:29 – 24:30
your market,
24:30 – 24:32
marketing and market demand.
24:33 – 24:35
Yeah, so so because
24:35 – 24:36
of our location,
24:37 – 24:40
I'll use cherries as an example.
24:41 – 24:42
Cherries are a
24:43 – 24:44
really sexy product.
24:45 – 24:46
People really love them,
24:47 – 24:48
but they're really fast.
24:48 – 24:50
You pick them one day, they're
24:50 – 24:51
packed the next day, and then
24:51 – 24:52
they're
24:52 – 24:53
on a truck or an airplane going
24:53 – 24:54
somewhere the third day.
24:55 – 24:57
And, you know, the lifespan of a
24:57 – 24:58
cherry is
24:58 – 25:00
seven to 10 days.
25:00 – 25:01
typically.
25:01 – 25:03
So it's just a very rapid
25:03 – 25:04
product.
25:05 – 25:07
Our cherries are predominantly
25:07 – 25:09
are predominantly packed in
25:09 – 25:10
Wenatchee.
25:11 – 25:12
So that's a
25:13 – 25:14
two and a half hour truck ride
25:14 – 25:16
from our farm just to get to the
25:16 – 25:17
packer.
25:18 – 25:19
So we've built hydro cooling
25:19 – 25:21
facilities on our farm so we can
25:21 – 25:22
chill the
25:22 – 25:24
cherries to get the heat out of
25:24 – 25:25
them
25:24 – 25:26
before they go in the truck to
25:26 – 25:27
go to Wenatchee.
25:29 – 25:31
So all
25:33 – 25:34
of our all of our products
25:35 – 25:36
our apples and pears go to
25:36 – 25:37
Brewster, which is an hour south
25:37 – 25:38
of us.
25:39 – 25:40
So our shortest ride is about an
25:40 – 25:41
hour to
25:42 – 25:43
get it just to the packing
25:43 – 25:44
facility, where
25:45 – 25:47
then it gets stored or processed
25:47 – 25:48
and
25:48 – 25:50
ultimately sent to a consumer,
25:50 – 25:51
which is,
25:53 – 25:54
I don't know, Wenatchee is
25:54 – 25:56
probably 45
25:58 – 26:00
minutes north of I -90,
26:01 – 26:01
I would guess.
26:02 – 26:03
And
26:03 – 26:05
Brewster's almost two hours
26:05 – 26:06
north of I -90.
26:07 – 26:09
For our trucks, for the trucks
26:09 – 26:11
hauling it to the consumer to
26:11 – 26:12
get back onto an interstate,
26:13 – 26:14
it's a long ways.
26:15 – 26:16
It's a big, big consideration.
26:17 – 26:18
Yeah.
26:17 – 26:18
And then in many cases you're
26:18 – 26:20
migrating or you're moving fruit
26:20 – 26:21
from there to the East Coast.
26:22 – 26:23
Exactly. So
26:23 – 26:25
fruit can go
26:26 – 26:28
all the way to the East Coast.
26:28 – 26:31
It can go to Mexico
26:31 – 26:33
in the South, up to Canada in
26:33 – 26:34
the North
26:34 – 26:35
in a
26:37 – 26:38
fair manner.
26:38 – 26:40
But some of it goes on an
26:40 – 26:42
airplane or a boat heading
26:42 – 26:43
overseas.
26:43 – 26:45
So primarily to Asia,
26:46 – 26:48
Asia is a big, is a big target,
26:48 – 26:49
a big target market.
26:49 – 26:50
Yeah. For the, for cherries,
26:50 – 26:52
especially Korea, Asia.
26:52 – 26:54
And then I think there's some,
26:54 – 26:55
there's some. some in
26:56 – 26:57
South
26:58 – 27:00
America, so down to Australia or
27:00 – 27:00
New Zealand.
27:02 – 27:04
But Asia is the main the main
27:04 – 27:07
market for or for that for the
27:07 – 27:08
export.
27:10 – 27:12
So in in this and in this
27:12 – 27:12
environment,
27:13 – 27:15
what are the you've
27:17 – 27:19
been organic for some time and
27:19 – 27:21
this entire marketplace.
27:22 – 27:23
is,
27:23 – 27:23
as you said at the beginning of
27:23 – 27:24
this conversation,
27:25 – 27:26
the marketplace is relatively
27:26 – 27:28
saturated for cherries and for
27:28 – 27:29
apples.
27:29 – 27:31
You made the transition to
27:32 – 27:34
organic fruit some time ago to
27:34 – 27:36
try to give you an
27:38 – 27:39
additional market advantage.
27:40 – 27:42
What are the incentives that
27:42 – 27:45
have motivated you to consider
27:45 – 27:47
a regenerative approach?
27:48 – 27:49
Yeah, so
27:53 – 27:55
we've
27:56 – 27:57
always
27:59 – 28:01
been innovative or wanted trying
28:01 – 28:02
to be innovative.
28:02 – 28:03
I one
28:03 – 28:05
of my fundamental beliefs is
28:05 – 28:05
that
28:05 – 28:07
as a small family farm,
28:08 – 28:11
if we're competing solely on
28:11 – 28:12
economies of scale, we're going
28:12 – 28:13
to lose that race.
28:14 – 28:15
We're going to get ground up and
28:15 – 28:16
we're going to I mean, we're
28:16 – 28:17
going to lose.
28:17 – 28:20
So as we evaluated and talked
28:20 – 28:22
about it with my family and and
28:22 – 28:24
we've we've worked through this,
28:25 – 28:26
came to the conclusion that we
28:26 – 28:29
really only have one true
28:29 – 28:31
competitive advantage.
28:31 – 28:32
And that is,
28:33 – 28:35
since we're smaller, we can
28:35 – 28:37
change easier and faster.
28:38 – 28:40
So if we're willing to innovate
28:40 – 28:42
and willing to change,
28:42 – 28:44
we can outcompete the big guys
28:44 – 28:47
to the breadcrumbs of what's
28:47 – 28:49
new and next and better.
28:50 – 28:51
if we're willing to keep our
28:51 – 28:53
minds open and keep flexible and
28:53 – 28:55
striving for that.
28:56 – 28:58
And that's the game we're
28:58 – 29:00
playing now is we're trying to
29:01 – 29:03
anticipate where the next
29:03 – 29:05
advantage is and then get there
29:05 – 29:07
first so that we can enjoy that
29:07 – 29:08
premium for that time,
29:09 – 29:10
always looking for the next one,
29:10 – 29:11
because we've got to kind of
29:11 – 29:12
jump to the next.
29:12 – 29:14
I mean, that's the merry -go
29:14 – 29:15
-round or the wheel that we're
29:15 – 29:16
on now is this.
29:17 – 29:18
constantly innovating.
29:18 – 29:20
And you've seen it in
29:21 – 29:22
tree fruit in the state of
29:22 – 29:23
Washington.
29:23 – 29:25
We've been labor disadvantaged
29:25 – 29:28
for 25 years. It's not new.
29:29 – 29:29
It's just
29:32 – 29:35
more urgent now because it's hit
29:35 – 29:37
the tipping point to where the
29:37 – 29:39
wages are getting so high that
29:40 – 29:41
it's hard to keep
29:42 – 29:44
finding the next thing that's
29:44 – 29:45
going to make you offset that
29:45 – 29:46
cost of labor,
29:47 – 29:49
whether it's better tractors or
29:50 – 29:52
more efficient sprayers or
29:52 – 29:54
harvest platforms or whatever it
29:54 – 29:55
is.
29:55 – 29:57
We're constantly chasing
29:57 – 29:57
mechanization,
29:58 – 30:00
looking for the next
30:00 – 30:03
labor savings in this really
30:03 – 30:05
labor intensive industry of tree
30:05 – 30:06
fruit.
30:08 – 30:10
So you described your motivation
30:10 – 30:12
in terms of capturing market
30:12 – 30:14
premiums and constantly being
30:14 – 30:15
innovative, being at the being
30:15 – 30:17
at the at the cutting edge, if
30:17 – 30:17
you will.
30:19 – 30:20
And I
30:21 – 30:22
find it interesting that you
30:22 – 30:23
framed it this way, because
30:24 – 30:26
in many cases,
30:27 – 30:28
Well, I'm seeing that there is
30:29 – 30:32
a wide disparity or I suppose a
30:32 – 30:33
great deal of diversity in
30:34 – 30:35
how
30:36 – 30:37
farm products are being priced
30:37 – 30:38
if they're being grown
30:38 – 30:39
regeneratively.
30:39 – 30:41
Occasionally there is a premium,
30:41 – 30:42
frequently there is not.
30:43 – 30:44
What are you observing
30:45 – 30:46
Where are the advantages for
30:46 – 30:47
you?
30:48 – 30:49
Are there price advantages or
30:49 – 30:51
what are the incentives?
30:54 – 30:55
There's a couple of incentives,
30:56 – 30:57
I think.
30:57 – 30:59
So we haven't proven it yet.
30:59 – 31:00
I don't have the data to say
31:00 – 31:01
with certainty that this is
31:01 – 31:02
going to happen.
31:02 – 31:03
But
31:03 – 31:06
my expectation is that as we get
31:06 – 31:08
the soil in balance and we get
31:08 – 31:09
better at regenerative,
31:10 – 31:11
we're
31:11 – 31:13
going to have less inputs that
31:13 – 31:14
we're going to have to put in
31:14 – 31:15
because
31:15 – 31:16
We're going to have healthier
31:16 – 31:18
soil that's generating its own
31:18 – 31:20
nitrogen, for example.
31:21 – 31:22
And so I'm going to have to
31:22 – 31:24
buy less nitrogen to put into
31:24 – 31:25
the soil eventually.
31:26 – 31:29
We're not there yet, but we did
31:29 – 31:31
we did save about 10 percent on
31:31 – 31:34
our nitrogen inputs last after
31:34 – 31:35
one year of experience.
31:36 – 31:38
We'll follow our SAP analysis
31:38 – 31:40
and we'll decide this, you know,
31:40 – 31:42
this spring or the spring of
31:42 – 31:42
what we do. But
31:43 – 31:44
we're continuing down that
31:44 – 31:46
continuing down that path.
31:46 – 31:47
So there's one.
31:48 – 31:49
I think there's some savings to
31:49 – 31:51
by not applying stuff you don't
31:51 – 31:52
need
31:52 – 31:53
once you build confidence in the
31:53 – 31:54
system.
31:55 – 31:57
The other the other areas is I
31:59 – 32:01
know organically there was a
32:01 – 32:03
premium because of the
32:03 – 32:05
belief in organic production
32:06 – 32:07
early on.
32:08 – 32:08
And that
32:10 – 32:12
as demand or as supply of
32:12 – 32:13
organic has outpaced demand,
32:14 – 32:15
that premium shrinking.
32:16 – 32:18
And over the last 25 years,
32:18 – 32:19
we've seen this.
32:19 – 32:20
It's like a roller coaster.
32:20 – 32:22
We've seen the wave where
32:23 – 32:24
prices look
32:24 – 32:26
Organic prices look great.
32:27 – 32:28
A bunch of new farmers jump in.
32:29 – 32:30
Supply goes up.
32:30 – 32:32
Prices shrink down to near
32:32 – 32:34
conventional pricing.
32:35 – 32:36
A bunch of people lose interest
32:36 – 32:38
because the premium's not there.
32:38 – 32:39
They jump out.
32:39 – 32:41
The price grow back because now
32:41 – 32:43
supply and demand are back
32:43 – 32:43
aligned.
32:44 – 32:45
We've seen, this is our third
32:45 – 32:46
cycle of that.
32:46 – 32:47
So we
32:48 – 32:50
expect that that's just kind of
32:50 – 32:51
the nature of the game we're
32:51 – 32:52
playing.
32:53 – 32:54
So if that's a third cycle in 25
32:54 – 32:55
years, you have roughly an eight
32:55 – 32:56
year cycle.
32:57 – 32:57
Exactly.
32:58 – 32:59
Exactly.
32:59 – 33:00
So,
33:00 – 33:02
um, and people who aren't really
33:02 – 33:04
committed to,
33:05 – 33:06
or don't believe in organic.
33:07 – 33:08
who are just chasing dollars
33:08 – 33:10
tend to jump in and out.
33:10 – 33:13
And the people who think that
33:13 – 33:14
organic truly is,
33:15 – 33:16
you know,
33:17 – 33:19
more flavorful food that's
33:19 – 33:20
better for you, that has
33:21 – 33:24
has more value than just being
33:24 – 33:26
organic, the name,
33:27 – 33:29
they stick in it and they keep
33:29 – 33:30
they keep trying to figure out
33:30 – 33:32
ways to innovate and get better
33:32 – 33:34
and and find the next, you know,
33:34 – 33:35
the next good thing.
33:36 – 33:38
So so on
33:38 – 33:39
our farm,
33:39 – 33:40
we feel like
33:40 – 33:42
Regenerative is the next logical
33:42 – 33:44
step beyond organic because of
33:44 – 33:46
the focus on the soil because we
33:47 – 33:48
found ourself doing this stuff
33:48 – 33:49
Anyway,
33:50 – 33:51
so if there's a way to to
33:51 – 33:53
potentially monetize that in the
33:53 – 33:55
future And I think through roc
33:55 – 33:56
and some of these
33:57 – 33:59
it's so new. We don't know
33:59 – 34:00
exactly how it's going to all
34:00 – 34:01
play out But I think there's an
34:01 – 34:02
opportunity to
34:03 – 34:04
monetize this and
34:05 – 34:06
and in in the tree fruit
34:06 – 34:08
industry, you know, there's one
34:09 – 34:10
large
34:11 – 34:13
Organic outfit Whole Foods.
34:13 – 34:14
I don't think it's a
34:15 – 34:16
they've been committed to
34:16 – 34:18
organic for a long long time and
34:18 – 34:20
have been champions of it
34:20 – 34:22
and and they're the only
34:23 – 34:24
People
34:25 – 34:26
right now that are really I
34:27 – 34:28
think supporting regenerative
34:30 – 34:32
Monetarily and
34:32 – 34:34
and hopefully they continue to
34:34 – 34:35
do that at that level starts a
34:35 – 34:36
trend and other
34:36 – 34:38
people who want to
34:38 – 34:41
jump in and get regeneratively
34:41 – 34:42
certified stuff
34:44 – 34:46
will put their ante up to be
34:46 – 34:47
able to get into it to get the
34:48 – 34:50
surety of supply that everybody
34:50 – 34:51
wants or needs.
34:53 – 34:54
Where do you see the significant
34:54 – 34:57
opportunity for growers in the
34:57 – 34:57
future?
35:00 – 35:03
Well, I can share a little bit
35:03 – 35:05
about how we're looking at
35:05 – 35:06
things.
35:07 – 35:08
And I'm going to talk
35:08 – 35:10
specifically to tree fruit.
35:11 – 35:13
In the tree fruit industry, we
35:14 – 35:16
have moved to a model to where
35:16 – 35:19
most of our new investment, we
35:19 – 35:20
have a very standardized
35:20 – 35:21
platform.
35:21 – 35:23
All of our trees are 10, our
35:23 – 35:24
rows are 10 feet, our trees are
35:24 – 35:25
two feet apart.
35:26 – 35:27
We're doing everything the same
35:27 – 35:30
way because it allows us to have
35:30 – 35:32
standard operating or standard
35:32 – 35:34
work rules to
35:34 – 35:37
get really good at managing the
35:38 – 35:39
envelopes in the environment
35:39 – 35:40
that we've set up.
35:41 – 35:43
It also because of how far north
35:43 – 35:43
we are in our
35:44 – 35:47
lower degree degree hours, we're
35:47 – 35:48
kind of paying more up front
35:48 – 35:49
because we're planting more
35:49 – 35:50
trees per acre,
35:51 – 35:53
but we don't have to grow as big
35:53 – 35:54
a tree to get the same volume of
35:54 – 35:55
fruit per acre.
35:56 – 35:58
So we've done the math and
35:58 – 35:59
convinced ourself that that's
35:59 – 36:02
what's best for our latitude and
36:02 – 36:03
longitude and location.
36:04 – 36:05
I
36:07 – 36:09
think the biggest advantage for
36:09 – 36:11
growers in the future is to
36:14 – 36:15
Find the partner that you're
36:15 – 36:16
going to work with, unless
36:16 – 36:17
you're big enough to be
36:17 – 36:18
vertically integrated, find the
36:18 – 36:19
partners you're going to work
36:19 – 36:21
with and get really good at
36:21 – 36:22
delivering what
36:23 – 36:25
the consumer wants and needs and
36:25 – 36:27
that they recognize as value,
36:28 – 36:29
whether that's organic or
36:29 – 36:30
regenerative.
36:30 – 36:31
or,
36:31 – 36:33
you know, the best Gala grow or
36:33 – 36:35
conventional Gala grower on the
36:35 – 36:37
planet that delivers only the
36:37 – 36:38
perfect sizes for,
36:38 – 36:40
for the, for what their sales
36:40 – 36:41
company needs.
36:42 – 36:43
You have to be really valuable
36:43 – 36:44
to, to those
36:45 – 36:47
larger organizations so that
36:47 – 36:49
they'll want to continue to
36:49 – 36:52
handle your products and include
36:52 – 36:53
you in the,
36:53 – 36:53
in the game.
36:55 – 36:57
We're also trying
36:57 – 36:58
to ensure that by
36:59 – 37:00
we've.
37:00 – 37:03
moved to mostly proprietary
37:03 – 37:04
genetics.
37:05 – 37:07
So by getting to genetics that
37:07 – 37:07
have
37:08 – 37:10
some favorable benefit.
37:11 – 37:12
So for example,
37:13 – 37:15
we started growing Honeycrisp in
37:15 – 37:17
the 90s before Honeycrisp was
37:17 – 37:19
really the apple.
37:20 – 37:22
And the primarily reason that my
37:22 – 37:23
father started that
37:24 – 37:26
was because our sites are
37:26 – 37:28
farther north, they're colder,
37:28 – 37:29
our soils are poor.
37:30 – 37:32
We couldn't grow good galas.
37:33 – 37:35
We grew a really good small
37:35 – 37:35
gala.
37:36 – 37:37
Well, nobody wants a small gala.
37:37 – 37:38
Everybody wants a medium to big
37:38 – 37:39
apple.
37:40 – 37:42
Honeycrisp tend to be too big.
37:42 – 37:43
Put them in our soil type.
37:44 – 37:45
We grow a really nice medium
37:45 – 37:47
sized honeycrisp, which is
37:47 – 37:48
really difficult to do in good
37:48 – 37:49
soils in the South.
37:50 – 37:51
So by
37:52 – 37:53
finding the right genetics and
37:53 – 37:55
the right match, it's allowed to
37:55 – 37:56
give us a competitive advantage
37:56 – 37:58
with honeycrisp.
37:59 – 38:01
So we grow a lot of honeycrisp
38:01 – 38:03
offspring proprietary genetics.
38:04 – 38:05
We have Cosmic Crisp planted.
38:06 – 38:08
We grow a phenomenal Cosmic
38:08 – 38:10
Crisp of unbelievable color.
38:11 – 38:12
We grow a Sugar Bee Apple, which
38:12 – 38:16
is the mother is a Honeycrisp
38:16 – 38:17
Apple.
38:17 – 38:18
It's a
38:19 – 38:21
later developing, but super
38:21 – 38:22
sweet,
38:22 – 38:24
super exciting apple, probably
38:25 – 38:26
Well, I know it's
38:26 – 38:28
last year, it's the fastest
38:28 – 38:31
growing by volume and price of
38:31 – 38:32
all the apples in the apple
38:32 – 38:33
category.
38:34 – 38:35
We
38:35 – 38:38
grow Lucy Rose and Lucy Glow,
38:38 – 38:39
which is a red flesh.
38:39 – 38:40
The internal
38:40 – 38:42
flesh is red,
38:42 – 38:43
but its mother is a Honeycrisp.
38:44 – 38:46
So we've had these proprietary
38:46 – 38:48
varieties that we're partnering
38:48 – 38:48
with
38:49 – 38:52
to grow varieties that we think
38:52 – 38:52
or
38:55 – 38:55
we hope will
38:56 – 38:59
allow us to build our brand and
38:59 – 39:01
have something other than just
39:01 – 39:03
another apple on the shelf.
39:07 – 39:08
Sam, I'd like I'd love to get
39:08 – 39:10
into this conversation with you
39:10 – 39:10
because I'm so
39:11 – 39:12
apples are so genetically
39:12 – 39:15
diverse and there are such
39:15 – 39:17
incredible flavor profiles
39:17 – 39:18
available, including many that
39:18 – 39:19
are not even grown commercially
39:19 – 39:21
yet at this point.
39:21 – 39:22
That
39:22 – 39:24
that's that's a very fun
39:24 – 39:25
earthworm hole to go down.
39:26 – 39:27
But I have a feeling that's an
39:27 – 39:28
earthworm hole for another time.
39:28 – 39:29
OK.
39:31 – 39:33
We started this conversation by
39:33 – 39:35
talking about cherries and some
39:35 – 39:36
of the
39:36 – 39:37
quality improvements and the
39:37 – 39:38
yield improvements that you'd
39:38 – 39:39
seen with cherries.
39:39 – 39:40
And this,
39:40 – 39:41
I'm not surprised by your
39:41 – 39:43
experience because we found that
39:43 – 39:45
very early on,
39:46 – 39:48
15 some years ago, when we first
39:48 – 39:49
started working with a lot of
39:49 – 39:50
tree fruit, I had the
39:50 – 39:53
expectation that tree
39:53 – 39:54
fruit would be
39:55 – 39:57
inherently slower to respond
39:57 – 39:58
than annual crops because
39:59 – 40:00
There is this physiological
40:00 – 40:01
component of dealing with the
40:01 – 40:03
entire trunk and branches and
40:03 – 40:04
the mineral,
40:04 – 40:05
the nutritional integrity of
40:05 – 40:06
this entire tree structure.
40:08 – 40:08
And
40:08 – 40:11
we've found that to not be the
40:11 – 40:12
case, particularly for the stone
40:12 – 40:13
fruit and particularly for
40:13 – 40:14
cherries.
40:15 – 40:16
Apples tend to be a little bit,
40:17 – 40:19
they have cumulative responses
40:19 – 40:20
that build year over year.
40:21 – 40:24
And I'm intrigued by this aspect
40:24 – 40:25
of cherries because not
40:26 – 40:28
only are they amongst the most
40:28 – 40:29
responsive tree crops, but
40:29 – 40:31
they're also the shortest to
40:31 – 40:32
harvest. I mean, many cases,
40:32 – 40:33
we've started working with a
40:33 – 40:35
crop at bloom or shortly after
40:35 – 40:37
bloom and bud break in the
40:37 – 40:38
spring,
40:38 – 40:41
and you've got two months to
40:41 – 40:41
harvest.
40:44 – 40:45
in that time window,
40:45 – 40:47
the trees are able to respond to
40:47 – 40:49
nutrition in a significant way.
40:49 – 40:50
So all
40:50 – 40:52
of that as context to say, I'm
40:52 – 40:53
not really surprised by your
40:53 – 40:54
cherry responses,
40:54 – 40:55
but
40:55 – 40:57
what have you been observing
40:57 – 40:58
with the apples and pears?
40:58 – 41:00
How has that been developing?
41:01 – 41:02
Yeah, that's a great question.
41:03 – 41:06
So when I think about and
41:06 – 41:08
compare and contrast the three
41:08 – 41:09
varieties,
41:10 – 41:11
you're absolutely right.
41:11 – 41:12
Cherries
41:12 – 41:14
The reason cherries, I really
41:14 – 41:16
enjoy working with cherries is
41:16 – 41:18
because they respond immediately
41:18 – 41:19
to
41:19 – 41:20
whatever you're doing,
41:21 – 41:24
whether it's a pruning cut or no
41:24 – 41:25
matter what you're doing to
41:25 – 41:27
manipulate the tree, you see the
41:27 – 41:29
results right away and it grows
41:29 – 41:32
very rapidly. So we may get two
41:32 – 41:33
or three feet of growth in a
41:33 – 41:35
cherry tree in a single season.
41:36 – 41:38
So you make the cut and you see
41:38 – 41:39
the horticultural impact from
41:39 – 41:41
the timing and all of the
41:41 – 41:43
manipulations you're making.
41:43 – 41:44
whether you're trying to break
41:44 – 41:46
buds or whatever it is you're
41:46 – 41:46
trying to manipulate.
41:47 – 41:50
So cherries are fun because you
41:50 – 41:52
get that feedback that year.
41:53 – 41:54
Apples are kind of in the
41:54 – 41:55
middle.
41:56 – 41:58
Apples, I would say it's a two
41:58 – 41:59
to three year window.
42:00 – 42:02
So it's probably a third as fast
42:02 – 42:05
as cherries when I think of the
42:05 – 42:07
horticultural responses to the
42:07 – 42:07
manipulations.
42:09 – 42:10
But because of that,
42:12 – 42:14
we've it allows us to develop
42:14 – 42:16
some rules in apples to say,
42:16 – 42:17
hey, we know,
42:17 – 42:19
look, when we make this cut,
42:19 – 42:21
we'll see a bud break behind the
42:21 – 42:23
cut at this timeframe as an
42:23 – 42:24
example.
42:25 – 42:26
So we can develop
42:27 – 42:30
prescriptions to get the tree to
42:30 – 42:31
do things we want to do.
42:32 – 42:35
Now with feeding the tree, we're
42:35 – 42:37
seeing the same thing.
42:37 – 42:38
So getting the right
42:38 – 42:40
You know, starting feeding at
42:40 – 42:41
the right soil temperatures, for
42:41 – 42:44
example, to maximize root growth
42:44 – 42:45
and root penetration.
42:46 – 42:48
We use a lot of fish product and
42:48 – 42:50
getting that fish product fed at
42:50 – 42:52
the right time so that it's
42:52 – 42:53
breaking down and available in
42:53 – 42:54
the right windows.
42:55 – 42:56
That's a lot of what we're
42:56 – 42:57
playing with and we're trying to
42:57 – 42:58
figure out now as we work
42:58 – 42:59
through the programs.
43:00 – 43:02
And it takes a
43:02 – 43:04
couple of years to see that
43:04 – 43:05
residual effect.
43:07 – 43:08
We're in year two of the
43:08 – 43:09
journey.
43:10 – 43:12
I think I see results in the sap
43:12 – 43:14
analysis in year two
43:14 – 43:16
where in my apple blocks I'm
43:16 – 43:18
starting to see trees balance
43:18 – 43:20
out. I'm starting to see some
43:20 – 43:21
patterns where, you know,
43:22 – 43:25
the boron, magnesium and zinc
43:25 – 43:26
are
43:26 – 43:28
three things that we're always
43:28 – 43:28
low in.
43:29 – 43:31
But I see that we're not as low
43:31 – 43:32
as we were last year.
43:32 – 43:34
We're low still, but we're not
43:34 – 43:35
as low as we were.
43:35 – 43:36
So there's hope that we're going
43:36 – 43:39
to build those and remineralize
43:39 – 43:41
the trees to the point to where
43:42 – 43:44
the spring application or the
43:44 – 43:46
fall application, whatever we're
43:46 – 43:49
doing is sufficient to span us
43:49 – 43:50
through the window.
43:51 – 43:52
But
43:52 – 43:54
we're watching that.
43:54 – 43:56
Pairs are like bonds.
43:57 – 43:59
They don't do anything fast.
44:00 – 44:02
It's an angel pair, it's eight
44:02 – 44:03
or nine years before you see
44:03 – 44:04
your first pair.
44:05 – 44:07
So it's just everything slows
44:07 – 44:08
down.
44:08 – 44:10
And we're still on
44:11 – 44:12
the journey and we're chasing
44:12 – 44:14
pears, but our expectations are
44:14 – 44:15
different because of the way
44:16 – 44:16
pears,
44:17 – 44:18
and pears are a lot more
44:18 – 44:19
complex.
44:20 – 44:21
They just behave differently.
44:22 – 44:24
The fruit's much more
44:24 – 44:26
challenging to get it harvested
44:26 – 44:26
right.
44:27 – 44:28
It really is,
44:29 – 44:31
it's a totally,
44:31 – 44:32
horticulturally, it's another
44:32 – 44:34
step up from apples.
44:35 – 44:36
It's a it's a real it's a real
44:36 – 44:38
challenge, but it's a fabulous
44:38 – 44:40
piece of fruit when it's done
44:40 – 44:40
well.
44:40 – 44:41
And
44:42 – 44:45
that's the other thing that we
44:45 – 44:47
focused on as a small family
44:47 – 44:48
farm is our
44:49 – 44:51
fundamental belief was is if we
44:51 – 44:52
could get really good at really
44:52 – 44:53
hard things,
44:53 – 44:56
it's harder for big companies to
44:56 – 44:58
knock it off and do it on 1000
44:58 – 44:59
acre scales.
44:59 – 45:01
We'll do it on
45:01 – 45:03
10 acre scales or five acre
45:03 – 45:05
scales and get really good at
45:05 – 45:07
doing something that's very
45:07 – 45:07
challenging.
45:09 – 45:11
and ultimately deliver high
45:11 – 45:12
quality fruit.
45:13 – 45:13
It
45:15 – 45:16
didn't talk a lot about how I
45:16 – 45:18
got to the farm, but I grew up
45:18 – 45:19
on a farm.
45:20 – 45:22
I trained as an engineer at
45:22 – 45:24
university and I worked in
45:24 – 45:26
aerospace for 15 years before
45:26 – 45:26
coming back.
45:27 – 45:29
I wanted to I
45:29 – 45:31
wanted to prove to myself that I
45:31 – 45:32
could go make it on my own
45:32 – 45:34
before just following in my
45:34 – 45:35
dad's footsteps,
45:35 – 45:37
even though that's what I always
45:37 – 45:39
wanted to do. I wanted to be a
45:39 – 45:39
farmer.
45:39 – 45:41
I knew that when I went to
45:41 – 45:41
college,
45:42 – 45:42
but
45:44 – 45:45
Some of us, it takes a little
45:45 – 45:47
time to learn that we got to
45:47 – 45:48
just go back to the dirt and get
45:48 – 45:49
into it.
45:50 – 45:53
So when we
45:53 – 45:54
came back
45:54 – 45:56
to the farm with
45:56 – 45:58
my wife in hand,
45:59 – 46:01
we really wanted to do what was
46:01 – 46:04
good for the farm and for the
46:04 – 46:05
plants. and people,
46:06 – 46:08
but we wanted to grow what we
46:08 – 46:09
felt like we wanted to eat.
46:09 – 46:11
We didn't want to just deliver
46:11 – 46:11
another
46:13 – 46:15
red apple that's red, and that's
46:15 – 46:16
why we're selling it.
46:15 – 46:16
But we wanted to deliver
46:16 – 46:18
something that truly excites
46:18 – 46:19
people when they eat it.
46:23 – 46:25
Sam, thank you for saying that,
46:25 – 46:26
because I think this is such an
46:26 – 46:27
important motivation.
46:27 – 46:28
There's something that I've
46:28 – 46:29
observed in
46:31 – 46:31
many cases
46:32 – 46:34
The growers who go down a
46:34 – 46:37
pathway of beginning to grow
46:37 – 46:38
differently,
46:41 – 46:43
quite frequently they are,
46:44 – 46:46
they're initially attracted by a
46:46 – 46:47
market incentive of some type
46:48 – 46:50
or they're motivated by economic
46:50 – 46:51
duress.
46:53 – 46:54
But often as they,
46:55 – 46:56
and occasionally,
46:56 – 46:58
occasionally they're also
46:58 – 46:59
motivated by health concerns or
46:59 – 47:00
health challenges.
47:00 – 47:01
They really want to do the right
47:01 – 47:02
thing from a health perspective
47:02 – 47:03
for the health of their own
47:03 – 47:04
health.
47:04 – 47:05
But for those who don't come
47:05 – 47:07
from that perspective, many
47:07 – 47:08
times there is this gradual
47:08 – 47:09
transition.
47:10 – 47:12
And those who thrive, they don't
47:12 – 47:13
just survive, but they actually
47:13 – 47:15
thrive. Those who thrive are the
47:15 – 47:15
ones
47:15 – 47:18
who get to that place where
47:18 – 47:19
they're not just motivated by
47:19 – 47:20
the economics. The economics are
47:20 – 47:21
important. They're essential, of
47:21 – 47:22
course.
47:22 – 47:23
But what
47:24 – 47:26
they are really motivated by is
47:26 – 47:28
this desire to do the right
47:28 – 47:29
thing,
47:29 – 47:30
to support people, to support
47:30 – 47:32
the planet, to support their own
47:32 – 47:32
operation.
47:33 – 47:34
and for optimal health for
47:34 – 47:35
everything that they are
47:35 – 47:37
stewarding and caring for.
47:37 – 47:38
And it's when they get to that,
47:38 – 47:40
they may not necessarily start
47:40 – 47:41
there, but once they get there
47:41 – 47:43
internally in their hearts and
47:43 – 47:44
minds,
47:44 – 47:45
there is
47:46 – 47:49
this takeoff ramp that happens
47:49 – 47:50
in the way that they interact
47:50 – 47:51
with their farm.
47:51 – 47:52
It changes the nature of the
47:52 – 47:53
interaction and it changes the
47:53 – 47:54
quality of the outcomes.
47:56 – 47:57
I agree with that
47:57 – 47:58
wholeheartedly.
48:00 – 48:03
My motivating factor for coming
48:03 – 48:04
back to the farm was one, I'm
48:04 – 48:06
clearly passionate about farming
48:06 – 48:07
and growing food and feeding
48:07 – 48:09
people is I can't think of
48:09 – 48:11
anything that's more exciting to
48:11 – 48:13
do than to be able to to offer
48:13 – 48:15
really good tasting food to
48:15 – 48:15
people.
48:16 – 48:17
But
48:18 – 48:20
more importantly to me, it was
48:21 – 48:23
I spent enough time in the city
48:24 – 48:26
to know that there's a lot of
48:26 – 48:27
people in the city that are
48:27 – 48:28
dreaming about when they can
48:28 – 48:30
retire or move back to the
48:30 – 48:32
country or find a way to escape
48:32 – 48:33
the city.
48:34 – 48:35
And so I
48:35 – 48:36
wanted my children,
48:37 – 48:39
because I had a young family,
48:39 – 48:41
I wanted them to experience
48:41 – 48:43
living and growing up in a rural
48:43 – 48:45
community on a farm the way I
48:45 – 48:46
had.
48:47 – 48:47
And so
48:47 – 48:49
we needed to get back when we
48:49 – 48:50
got back
48:50 – 48:53
so that my my oldest was in
48:53 – 48:54
eighth grade.
48:54 – 48:56
So she was, you know, 13, 14
48:56 – 48:57
years old.
48:57 – 48:59
And I wanted her to be able to
48:59 – 49:00
experience high school in a
49:00 – 49:02
smaller school, in a rural
49:02 – 49:04
community, and learn about the
49:04 – 49:05
farm.
49:05 – 49:07
And we've raised two other
49:07 – 49:08
children on the farm.
49:09 – 49:11
And what motivates me today is
49:11 – 49:12
about,
49:12 – 49:13
it's really about
49:14 – 49:16
figuring out how to bridge the
49:16 – 49:16
next generation.
49:17 – 49:19
So I'm happy to report that my
49:19 – 49:22
oldest daughter lives on the
49:22 – 49:22
farm with her,
49:23 – 49:24
with my son -in -law,
49:25 – 49:26
and they're raising
49:26 – 49:28
my grandchildren on the farm.
49:30 – 49:31
We're working through the
49:31 – 49:33
transition so that they're
49:33 – 49:33
slowly
49:33 – 49:35
becoming more engaged and they
49:35 – 49:36
both work on the farm.
49:37 – 49:38
So we're trying to build the
49:38 – 49:41
next generation and continue the
49:41 – 49:42
cycle so
49:42 – 49:44
that this revolution,
49:45 – 49:46
let's call it,
49:46 – 49:48
can continue to
49:48 – 49:50
do what's right and deliver
49:50 – 49:53
really good quality food that
49:53 – 49:55
people can enjoy for years to
49:55 – 49:55
come.
49:56 – 49:58
That's outstanding, Sam, because
49:58 – 50:00
I think that this issue of
50:00 – 50:01
succession is
50:02 – 50:05
the issue that far too many
50:05 – 50:07
farms are failing to think
50:07 – 50:08
through and failing to prepare
50:08 – 50:09
for
50:09 – 50:11
and so
50:13 – 50:15
easily cause a legacy of
50:15 – 50:16
outstanding work to just fall
50:16 – 50:17
off the end of a cliff,
50:18 – 50:19
come to the end of the road.
50:20 – 50:21
Yeah, it's
50:22 – 50:24
sad, but true. It's sad, but
50:24 – 50:25
true.
50:25 – 50:26
Yeah.
50:26 – 50:27
Sam, we've had a very wide
50:27 – 50:28
ranging conversation.
50:28 – 50:30
What important aspects of your
50:30 – 50:31
operation or of your work have
50:31 – 50:32
we not yet talked about?
50:34 – 50:35
Well,
50:35 – 50:37
so the so the the
50:39 – 50:41
next part of the of the of the
50:41 – 50:43
journey for us, I think, is
50:43 – 50:45
we're continuing to invest in
50:45 – 50:47
our brand and trying to
50:48 – 50:50
differentiate our farms so that
50:50 – 50:51
we can so
50:52 – 50:53
that we can continue to build or
50:53 – 50:55
build equity in that in that
50:55 – 50:56
brand and not just be another
50:56 – 50:57
apple on the shelf.
50:58 – 51:00
And and in doing that,
51:01 – 51:02
We also,
51:02 – 51:05
we also want to, uh,
51:06 – 51:08
kind of navigate this transition
51:08 – 51:09
of
51:10 – 51:12
what's next in regenerative in
51:12 – 51:14
the regenerative play and, you
51:14 – 51:16
know, how certification going to
51:16 – 51:17
play and how are,
51:17 – 51:19
how are all the policies and
51:19 – 51:21
politics and all the stuff that,
51:21 – 51:23
that ultimately set up success,
51:24 – 51:26
uh, try to navigate that
51:26 – 51:28
without, um, stubbing our toe
51:28 – 51:30
or, or wasting a bunch of time
51:30 – 51:30
and money
51:31 – 51:31
chasing,
51:32 – 51:33
uh,
51:33 – 51:34
you know, uh, a piece of paper.
51:35 – 51:37
that says that we're certified
51:37 – 51:39
to only find out that that paper
51:39 – 51:40
doesn't really
51:42 – 51:45
apply or fit, or it's just a
51:45 – 51:46
step in the journey, I guess.
51:47 – 51:49
The example I'll use is Global
51:49 – 51:50
Gap.
51:50 – 51:52
So we went through the, we went
51:52 – 51:53
through the race and got
51:54 – 51:55
global gap certified because
51:55 – 51:57
that's, was the food safety
51:57 – 51:59
model that was being followed.
52:00 – 52:03
And then as that took off,
52:03 – 52:05
it got more expensive and, and
52:05 – 52:08
became a burden instead of a
52:08 – 52:09
benefit.
52:09 – 52:10
And
52:10 – 52:11
I ended up, you know,
52:12 – 52:13
morphing to, uh,
52:15 – 52:15
to SQF,
52:16 – 52:17
which is, you know,
52:18 – 52:20
a more farmer friendly approach
52:20 – 52:22
to to ensuring that we're
52:22 – 52:25
uniformly applying food safety
52:25 – 52:26
standards in our daily
52:26 – 52:27
operation.
52:28 – 52:31
So we want to avoid those
52:31 – 52:33
missteps as much as we can.
52:33 – 52:34
But we want to also
52:35 – 52:37
it almost feels like being a Boy
52:37 – 52:40
Scout. We need to as a family
52:40 – 52:41
farm, we need to get badges on
52:41 – 52:42
our belt so
52:43 – 52:44
that people know that we care
52:44 – 52:45
and we're trying the right
52:45 – 52:47
thing. So whether it's,
52:47 – 52:50
you know, be smart or be safe or
52:51 – 52:52
you know, having, uh,
52:54 – 52:55
you know, work with the Xerces
52:55 – 52:56
society to have
52:57 – 52:59
beneficial pollinator habitat
52:59 – 53:00
and,
53:00 – 53:01
and being able to get some of
53:01 – 53:02
the,
53:02 – 53:04
some of the recognition for some
53:04 – 53:05
of the activities we're doing
53:05 – 53:06
that are the right things to do
53:08 – 53:09
so that it helps people in
53:09 – 53:11
market understand that
53:11 – 53:13
we really do care.
53:13 – 53:14
Cause at the end of the day,
53:14 – 53:15
that's what I want to come out
53:15 – 53:16
as it,
53:16 – 53:18
you know, we really care about
53:18 – 53:20
giving you something that we
53:20 – 53:22
serve and eat in our, in our
53:22 – 53:23
home.
53:23 – 53:26
It's not just another apple in a
53:26 – 53:27
box being
53:27 – 53:29
shipped around in a semi truck
53:30 – 53:31
and having people being able to
53:31 – 53:33
connect and feel that that
53:33 – 53:34
belonging.
53:35 – 53:37
Maybe it's my southern roots.
53:37 – 53:38
I mean, my parents were both
53:38 – 53:40
from Texas and you couldn't come
53:40 – 53:43
see my mom without getting a
53:43 – 53:44
glass of iced tea and a cookie
53:44 – 53:45
or something.
53:45 – 53:47
that she had just taken out of
53:47 – 53:47
the oven.
53:48 – 53:49
And and I think that's still
53:49 – 53:51
part of my part of my upbringing
53:51 – 53:53
and heritage is that we we want
53:53 – 53:55
people to leave feeling like
53:55 – 53:56
they're better off than they
53:56 – 53:57
were when they showed up.
54:00 – 54:01
Thank you, Sam.
54:01 – 54:02
That's a wonderful note to end
54:02 – 54:03
on, because
54:03 – 54:04
ultimately,
54:06 – 54:09
The value of our work is in
54:09 – 54:11
regenerating relationships with
54:11 – 54:12
landscapes, with people, with
54:12 – 54:13
each other, with our supply
54:13 – 54:14
chains.
54:14 – 54:16
And you are well down the
54:16 – 54:17
pathway towards regenerating
54:17 – 54:18
relationships on multiple
54:18 – 54:19
dimensions.
54:19 – 54:20
So
54:20 – 54:21
thank you for your work.
54:21 – 54:22
Thank you for being here.
54:22 – 54:23
And thank you for being willing
54:23 – 54:24
to share your experiences.
54:25 – 54:26
Thanks, John.
54:26 – 54:27
Have a great day.
