Podcast Extra: Navigating Macroeconomic Shocks with Dr. Michael McNeill

In this Podcast Extra, John Kempf speaks with Dr. Michael McNeill at the Acres U.S.A. Eco-Ag Conference in December 2025. During their conversation, they field questions from the audience and dive deep into the intersection of macroeconomics, history, and the future of farming.

Topics discussed include:

The historical context of the 1962 “Adaptive Program for Agriculture” and its intentional design to reduce the American farm population.

Personal reflections on the 1980s farm crisis and the role of high-interest rates in driving farm bankruptcies and consolidation.

Strategies for developing resilient farming systems that can withstand economic shifts, political changes, and climate volatility.

A vision for a “major reset” in American agriculture within the next five years, shifting toward either massive consolidation or smaller food-as-medicine operations.

The critical role of collaboration and mentorship between older and younger generations to facilitate land transition and knowledge sharing

Additional Resources
To learn more about Acres U.S.A, please visit: https://www.acresusa.com/

To listen to a previous Regenerative Agriculture Podcast episode featuring Dr. McNeill, please visit: https://advancingecoag.com/podcast/disease-resistance-and-regenerating-soil-with-michael-mcneill/

About John Kempf
John Kempf is the founder of Advancing Eco Agriculture (AEA). A top expert in biological and regenerative farming, John founded AEA in 2006 to help fellow farmers by providing the education, tools, and strategies that will have a global effect on the food supply and those who grow it.

Through intense study and the knowledge gleaned from many industry leaders, John is building a comprehensive systems-based approach to plant nutrition – a system solidly based on the sciences of plant physiology, mineral nutrition, and soil microbiology.

Support For This Show & Helping You Grow
Since 2006, AEA has been on a mission to help growers become more resilient, efficient, and profitable with regenerative agriculture.

AEA works directly with growers to apply its unique line of liquid mineral crop nutrition products and biological inoculants. Informed by cutting-edge plant and soil data-gathering techniques, AEA’s science-based programs empower farm operations to meet the crop quality markers that matter the most.

AEA has created real and lasting change on millions of acres with its products and data-driven services by working hand-in-hand with growers to produce healthier soil, stronger crops, and higher profits.

Beyond working on the ground with growers, AEA leads in regenerative agriculture media and education, producing and distributing the popular and highly-regarded Regenerative Agriculture Podcast, inspiring webinars, and other educational content that serve as go-to resources for growers worldwide

Learn more about AEA’s regenerative programs and products: https://www.advancingecoag.com

Podcast Transcript

0:00 – 0:00

Welcome everyone.

0:01 – 0:03

I've been really fascinated by

0:03 – 0:06

the topic of macroeconomics in

0:06 – 0:07

general,

0:08 – 0:09

understanding how our banking

0:09 – 0:10

system works,

0:11 – 0:12

and

0:12 – 0:14

understanding how

0:14 – 0:17

macroeconomics really influence

0:17 – 0:18

agriculture, and how they

0:18 – 0:19

influence farming,

0:19 – 0:21

and the rise and decline of

0:21 – 0:22

civilizations throughout

0:22 – 0:23

history.

0:26 – 0:28

When I was having this

0:28 – 0:29

conversation with Taylor one day

0:29 – 0:30

and he asked me, he said, well,

0:30 – 0:32

I think you need to talk about

0:32 – 0:33

this

0:33 – 0:34

topic at the conference.

0:35 – 0:35

Well,

0:36 – 0:38

I had all well -meaning

0:38 – 0:41

intentions to come prepared to

0:41 – 0:44

this talk with lots of notes

0:44 – 0:46

about specific reports that I

0:46 – 0:47

had written, specific

0:47 – 0:47

documentation.

0:50 – 0:51

Thanks to me not having enough

0:51 – 0:53

to get done, none of that

0:53 – 0:53

happened.

0:54 – 0:57

But when I was here, I realized

0:57 – 0:58

there were several people here

0:58 – 1:00

who I didn't realize were going

1:00 – 1:02

to be here who had actually

1:02 – 1:03

lived through some of the

1:03 – 1:06

experiences that I wanted to

1:06 – 1:07

talk about. And so what better

1:07 – 1:09

opportunity than to get some

1:09 – 1:11

friends up here on the stage and

1:11 – 1:12

actually have a conversation

1:12 – 1:13

about some of the things that

1:13 – 1:14

have happened over the last 60

1:14 – 1:16

years around American

1:16 – 1:17

agriculture and agricultural

1:17 – 1:18

economics.

1:20 – 1:21

I'm very pleased and very

1:21 – 1:22

delighted to let all of you know

1:22 – 1:24

that Michael McNeil is here

1:24 – 1:25

today, and he's going to be

1:25 – 1:26

joining me here on stage to talk

1:26 – 1:28

about agriculture economics,

1:28 – 1:29

because he got the inside story.

1:30 – 1:31

So, please welcome Michael.

1:38 – 1:39

Thanks for being here, Michael.

1:40 – 1:41

All

1:41 – 1:42

right, so,

1:43 – 1:44

we,

1:45 – 1:48

in a certain sense, we know that

1:49 – 1:50

Farm economics and farm

1:50 – 1:52

financial condition is very

1:52 – 1:53

stressed in the countryside

1:53 – 1:55

right now. We stand in, I think

1:55 – 1:56

you could arguably say we stand

1:56 – 1:58

in very perilous conditions,

1:58 – 1:59

many farming operations do.

2:02 – 2:04

I think it is important for us

2:04 – 2:07

to realize, particularly for

2:07 – 2:08

myself, many of us in the

2:08 – 2:09

younger generation,

2:10 – 2:12

to recognize and understand how

2:12 – 2:13

we got to this place.

2:14 – 2:16

It's been very fascinating for

2:16 – 2:17

me.

2:18 – 2:19

I grew up listening to my

2:19 – 2:20

grandfather's stories.

2:20 – 2:22

My grandfather was a

2:22 – 2:24

conscientious objector during

2:24 – 2:24

the Second World War.

2:24 – 2:25

He was born in 1918.

2:26 – 2:28

After the war, after his war

2:28 – 2:29

service was over, he came back

2:29 – 2:30

home,

2:30 – 2:31

got married,

2:31 – 2:32

bought a farm,

2:32 – 2:34

it was a small dairy farm,

2:34 – 2:35

and he paid for that farm in

2:35 – 2:36

four years with

2:37 – 2:38

the proceeds from the farm.

2:39 – 2:40

And I've heard many stories, in

2:40 – 2:41

fact, if you,

2:42 – 2:43

I have read,

2:44 – 2:45

haven't gone deep enough to

2:45 – 2:46

validate this, but I've read

2:46 – 2:48

that during the time period in

2:48 – 2:50

the late 40s and through the

2:50 – 2:51

50s,

2:51 – 2:52

and in some areas even into the

2:52 – 2:53

early 60s,

2:53 – 2:56

the common payoff period for a

2:56 – 2:58

farm, depending on the region

2:58 – 3:00

and the context, was five to

3:00 – 3:00

seven years,

3:01 – 3:02

and occasionally as much as nine

3:02 – 3:02

years.

3:03 – 3:04

It's a very different

3:04 – 3:06

macroeconomic environment from

3:06 – 3:06

where we are today.

3:09 – 3:13

I think many

3:13 – 3:14

people in the younger generation

3:14 – 3:17

kind of have this expectation

3:17 – 3:17

that,

3:19 – 3:21

well, the context as we know is

3:21 – 3:22

that

3:22 – 3:24

all of us who are paying

3:24 – 3:25

attention very clearly

3:25 – 3:26

understand that there is a lot

3:26 – 3:27

of economic extraction.

3:28 – 3:29

that is happening out of rural

3:29 – 3:30

economies.

3:30 – 3:31

There's a lot of economic

3:31 – 3:32

extraction from rural

3:32 – 3:33

communities. Rural communities

3:33 – 3:35

are becoming financially

3:35 – 3:36

distressed.

3:36 – 3:37

The population is declining.

3:38 – 3:40

And the kind of the general

3:40 – 3:41

assumption,

3:41 – 3:43

if we are not familiar with

3:43 – 3:45

history, is that all of this

3:45 – 3:48

economic extraction occurred by

3:49 – 3:51

a large number of different

3:51 – 3:52

people

3:53 – 3:55

and corporations, businesses,

3:56 – 3:58

making interests,

3:58 – 4:00

or making decisions in their own

4:00 – 4:01

self -interest,

4:01 – 4:02

and that we got to this place

4:02 – 4:04

where we are today, over a 70 or

4:04 – 4:05

80 year history,

4:06 – 4:06

kind of gradually,

4:07 – 4:08

slowly,

4:08 – 4:11

by people who didn't think about

4:11 – 4:13

the long -term consequences of

4:13 – 4:14

decisions that they're making,

4:14 – 4:15

and the impact that they would

4:15 – 4:16

have.

4:17 – 4:18

I don't believe that to be the

4:18 – 4:19

case.

4:19 – 4:20

Once you really study history,

4:20 – 4:22

I've come to the conclusion

4:22 – 4:24

that this was very deliberate,

4:25 – 4:27

it was designed, and it was

4:27 – 4:28

intended at the highest levels.

4:28 – 4:29

This was not accidental.

4:30 – 4:31

This was a very deliberate, very

4:31 – 4:32

intentional process.

4:33 – 4:34

And so

4:34 – 4:37

there was this one report,

4:39 – 4:40

An Adaptive Program for

4:40 – 4:41

Agriculture,

4:41 – 4:43

was a report that was published

4:43 – 4:46

in 1962 by the American

4:46 – 4:47

Committee for Economic

4:47 – 4:48

Development.

4:48 – 4:50

And I'd suggest you go look up

4:50 – 4:51

the report if you're interested,

4:51 – 4:52

but what happened

4:53 – 4:54

That report came to the

4:54 – 4:55

conclusion, I'm just

4:56 – 4:57

speaking very broadly here, but

4:57 – 5:00

in essence they said that

5:01 – 5:04

we're running into trouble

5:05 – 5:06

managing the country.

5:07 – 5:10

The rural population is too

5:10 – 5:11

independent.

5:11 – 5:13

They're financially independent.

5:13 – 5:14

They're heavily armed.

5:14 – 5:16

They have a significant, quite a

5:16 – 5:17

fair -sized population.

5:17 – 5:18

They could overthrow the

5:18 – 5:19

government if they wanted to.

5:19 – 5:21

And we don't have effective

5:21 – 5:22

control of our food supply and

5:22 – 5:23

being able to keep our food

5:23 – 5:24

supply cheap and inexpensive for

5:24 – 5:25

the long term because of their

5:25 – 5:26

independent -mindedness.

5:28 – 5:30

And if we want to

5:30 – 5:34

maintain a cheap food supply

5:34 – 5:34

for

5:35 – 5:36

the long term,

5:36 – 5:38

we have two possible pathways.

5:38 – 5:42

We can institute supply controls

5:42 – 5:44

as in similar to the Canadian

5:44 – 5:45

system

5:45 – 5:46

5:46 – 5:48

we can

5:49 – 5:50

deplete

5:51 – 5:53

economic success, the financial

5:53 – 5:54

success of the rural

5:54 – 5:55

communities,

5:55 – 5:56

and bring them

5:56 – 5:59

under our control through

5:59 – 6:00

financial management.

6:02 – 6:03

And they chose the second

6:03 – 6:04

choice, the second pathway.

6:04 – 6:06

From that pathway forward,

6:09 – 6:11

through the late 1960s,

6:12 – 6:13

1970s,

6:13 – 6:15

there were salesmen traveling

6:15 – 6:17

rural highways selling credit to

6:17 – 6:18

farms.

6:18 – 6:20

Very inexpensive credit,

6:20 – 6:22

making credit very attractive to

6:22 – 6:23

farmers, getting them used to

6:23 – 6:24

using credit.

6:24 – 6:25

And then of course, the early

6:25 – 6:26

1980s came the 1980s farm

6:26 – 6:27

crisis.

6:29 – 6:30

Interest rates hiked,

6:30 – 6:31

farms were forced into

6:31 – 6:32

bankruptcy.

6:33 – 6:34

And by the way, one of the

6:34 – 6:36

stated goals of this economic

6:36 – 6:37

development report that I missed

6:37 – 6:40

mentioning was the explicitly

6:40 – 6:43

stated outcome of reducing the

6:43 – 6:46

farm population by 60 % in five

6:46 – 6:47

years.

6:48 – 6:49

That was a stated articulated

6:49 – 6:50

goal.

6:51 – 6:52

So where

6:53 – 6:56

we are today is not an accident.

6:56 – 6:58

And this continued extraction of

6:59 – 7:00

trying to keep farmers right on

7:00 – 7:02

the tipping threshold of

7:02 – 7:03

remaining economically viable,

7:03 – 7:05

not going bankrupt, but

7:05 – 7:06

continues consolidation,

7:06 – 7:08

is deliberate and intentional.

7:09 – 7:09

And

7:10 – 7:11

the

7:11 – 7:15

point that I want for us to come

7:15 – 7:15

away with,

7:16 – 7:17

or for us to think about, is how

7:17 – 7:19

do we put ourselves into a

7:19 – 7:21

position where we are not

7:21 – 7:22

vulnerable going forward?

7:24 – 7:25

With that,

7:25 – 7:27

I'm very grateful to Michael for

7:27 – 7:28

joining me here on the stage

7:28 – 7:30

because Michael actually lived

7:30 – 7:31

through the 1980s farm crisis

7:31 – 7:33

and he had a very interesting

7:33 – 7:36

inside perspective on what was

7:36 – 7:37

happening with credit management

7:37 – 7:39

and how this whole situation

7:39 – 7:40

evolved.

7:40 – 7:41

So,

7:41 – 7:43

Michael, I feel like I've given

7:43 – 7:44

entirely too long of a prelude

7:44 – 7:45

here to set the stage.

7:45 – 7:46

but

7:45 – 7:48

I'd love for you to tell us

7:48 – 7:50

about the

7:50 – 7:52

context of your experience.

7:53 – 7:54

What was the scope of the work

7:54 – 7:55

that you were doing during this

7:55 – 7:56

period, and what were the things

7:56 – 7:57

that you observed in the

7:57 – 7:59

countryside as this situation

7:59 – 8:00

evolved?

8:00 – 8:02

Well, your presentation of

8:02 – 8:05

what was going on was very

8:05 – 8:05

accurate.

8:07 – 8:09

There was that movement to

8:09 – 8:11

reduce the number of us farmers

8:11 – 8:13

by a dramatic amount.

8:14 – 8:17

And the economic approach was

8:17 – 8:20

a really good way to do that.

8:21 – 8:23

And it was very effective.

8:24 – 8:27

And I'm going to say about

8:27 – 8:29

1984,

8:31 – 8:32

85,

8:33 – 8:35

it sort of started dawning on

8:36 – 8:38

people that were wanting this to

8:38 – 8:39

happen, that

8:39 – 8:41

how do we put the brakes on

8:41 – 8:42

this?

8:43 – 8:44

Because

8:44 – 8:45

farmers were dropping like

8:45 – 8:46

flies.

8:47 – 8:49

And they were the good ones that

8:49 – 8:50

they were taking out.

8:51 – 8:53

Because if they had some equity

8:53 – 8:53

buildup,

8:54 – 8:55

they were probably

8:56 – 8:56

pretty good farmers.

8:57 – 8:59

And because the banks were

8:59 – 9:01

desperate for money,

9:02 – 9:03

that's the ones you shut down.

9:04 – 9:06

And it dawned on them, this

9:06 – 9:07

isn't working very well.

9:08 – 9:11

And so I was fortunate enough to

9:11 – 9:13

get a job.

9:14 – 9:17

I had a five year contract to

9:18 – 9:19

save

9:20 – 9:22

the farmers that were...

9:22 – 9:23

Was that your mandate?

9:24 – 9:25

That was my mandate,

9:26 – 9:29

but it was kind of sneaky in

9:29 – 9:32

that I worked with FMHA

9:34 – 9:35

farm loans,

9:35 – 9:36

the guaranteed loans, and they

9:36 – 9:38

said, well the job you're going

9:38 – 9:40

to have is we want you to to go

9:40 – 9:43

out and check

9:45 – 9:46

the banks that are working with

9:46 – 9:48

these guaranteed loans.

9:48 – 9:50

You basically are going to

9:50 – 9:52

monitor them and make sure

9:52 – 9:53

they're doing this correctly.

9:55 – 9:57

So I was working as an

9:57 – 9:59

agricultural consultant and I

9:59 – 10:01

was helping my farmers as best I

10:01 – 10:03

could because I could see I was

10:03 – 10:05

losing farmers, which meant

10:05 – 10:07

I'm losing business too.

10:08 – 10:08

And so

10:10 – 10:11

I'm going to have to figure out

10:11 – 10:12

a way to

10:12 – 10:13

help them.

10:14 – 10:15

So I kind of launched on this

10:15 – 10:16

project and learned how to make

10:16 – 10:19

cash flows and understand the

10:19 – 10:20

financing.

10:21 – 10:23

So I would take a work with a

10:23 – 10:25

grower and develop a cash flow

10:25 – 10:29

program for him that was

10:29 – 10:30

going to work in this very

10:30 – 10:31

difficult time.

10:32 – 10:34

Take that to the bank

10:35 – 10:36

and say, OK,

10:36 – 10:38

here's the cash flow.

10:38 – 10:39

This guy is going to work.

10:39 – 10:41

No, we're going to sell him out.

10:42 – 10:44

No, why would you sell him out

10:44 – 10:47

because see he can he's gonna

10:47 – 10:48

survive this No,

10:49 – 10:49

we're gonna sell him out

10:50 – 10:51

what they needed was his money.

10:53 – 10:55

And so I'd say no we've worked

10:55 – 10:56

really hard in this cash flow

10:56 – 10:58

It's very accurate and

10:59 – 11:00

he's agreed that he's gonna

11:00 – 11:01

follow it like a budget.

11:02 – 11:03

Nope. That's it So

11:04 – 11:06

then I opened my badge and show

11:06 – 11:09

that I am an auditor for FMHA

11:09 – 11:11

guaranteed loans and

11:11 – 11:13

the banker Oh, well,

11:13 – 11:14

maybe we gotta look at this

11:14 – 11:15

again

11:16 – 11:19

And so I went through quite a

11:19 – 11:20

few of those scenarios.

11:20 – 11:23

Those farmers are still viable

11:23 – 11:24

and

11:23 – 11:25

working well today.

11:25 – 11:26

It's unfortunate there weren't

11:26 – 11:27

more of you in the countryside

11:27 – 11:28

in that position.

11:28 – 11:29

There weren't very many.

11:30 – 11:31

And so I

11:33 – 11:34

learned a lot from that.

11:37 – 11:38

Things got better.

11:39 – 11:41

We were able to kind of put the

11:41 – 11:43

brakes on that and it leveled

11:43 – 11:44

out.

11:44 – 11:45

Now,

11:45 – 11:48

I see things starting to tighten

11:48 – 11:49

up again today.

11:49 – 11:50

And guess what?

11:50 – 11:52

It's for the same reason.

11:52 – 11:53

You need to reduce the farmers

11:53 – 11:55

to a lesser number,

11:55 – 11:56

easier to control.

11:57 – 11:59

You do that through economics.

12:00 – 12:02

So let's back up just a step.

12:02 – 12:04

You used a phrase just now.

12:04 – 12:05

You said you see a similar

12:05 – 12:07

scenario emerging.

12:07 – 12:10

What was the

12:10 – 12:12

situation analysis prior

12:13 – 12:14

to the 1980s? What did it look

12:14 – 12:16

like through the 60s and 70s?

12:16 – 12:17

It was boom time.

12:18 – 12:20

You couldn't make a mistake.

12:22 – 12:23

Anything you invested in,

12:23 – 12:25

any expansion you did,

12:25 – 12:26

just made things

12:27 – 12:28

better.

12:28 – 12:29

It was great.

12:31 – 12:33

It was a time I was starting up

12:33 – 12:34

farming,

12:34 – 12:37

and I started with a quarter

12:37 – 12:38

section of land.

12:39 – 12:41

In a matter of three or four

12:41 – 12:43

years, I'd expanded that to 900

12:43 – 12:43

acres,

12:44 – 12:46

which was a pretty good jump in

12:46 – 12:47

a pretty short time.

12:48 – 12:50

I'd had a small

12:50 – 12:53

feeding lot operation.

12:53 – 12:55

I was feeding out about 40 head

12:55 – 12:56

of cattle.

12:56 – 12:58

I ramped that up to 350 head of

12:58 – 12:59

cattle.

13:00 – 13:01

Oh, it's really working good.

13:02 – 13:03

4 % interest,

13:04 – 13:07

borrowing money, things were

13:07 – 13:08

great.

13:09 – 13:11

And then all of a sudden that 4

13:11 – 13:14

% interest went to 18 % in a

13:14 – 13:15

matter of a few months.

13:16 – 13:18

And then all the cattle I had on

13:18 – 13:20

feed all of a sudden went from

13:20 – 13:22

being very profitable to being

13:22 – 13:24

tremendous loss.

13:26 – 13:29

And so I personally experienced

13:29 – 13:30

it.

13:30 – 13:32

and I figured a way out of it,

13:32 – 13:33

and then I took that

13:34 – 13:36

information to everyone else

13:36 – 13:37

that I could help.

13:38 – 13:41

And so I see a similar situation

13:41 – 13:42

developing now,

13:43 – 13:44

but it's going to be different.

13:45 – 13:47

But there's different reasons,

13:47 – 13:49

but the economic pressure is

13:49 – 13:49

going to be the same.

13:50 – 13:51

There are many questions that I

13:51 – 13:52

would like to ask,

13:52 – 13:53

but,

13:53 – 13:55

and I want to, this is such an

13:55 – 13:56

important topic, I want to open

13:56 – 13:57

it up for all of you to be able

13:57 – 13:59

to ask questions as well, but

13:59 – 14:00

one

14:01 – 14:02

of the, I think one of the

14:02 – 14:04

fundamental questions we need to

14:04 – 14:05

be thinking about and be asking

14:05 – 14:07

ourselves is, how do we insulate

14:07 – 14:09

ourselves? How do we protect

14:09 – 14:10

ourselves and not put ourselves

14:10 – 14:11

in a vulnerable position?

14:12 – 14:13

That's the right question to

14:13 – 14:13

ask.

14:14 – 14:16

And I spoke about that

14:17 – 14:18

Well, on Tuesday, we talked

14:18 – 14:20

about how do you

14:20 – 14:23

develop a farming system

14:24 – 14:27

that's resilient to all the

14:27 – 14:28

changes that we're going to

14:28 – 14:28

experience.

14:29 – 14:30

We're going to experience

14:30 – 14:31

climate change

14:31 – 14:34

because climate does change.

14:35 – 14:35

Nothing new there.

14:36 – 14:38

But we're probably going to see

14:38 – 14:40

a little bit more violent

14:40 – 14:41

weather conditions, maybe more

14:41 – 14:42

drought, more storms.

14:43 – 14:45

Develop a farming system that's

14:45 – 14:46

resilient to that.

14:47 – 14:48

We're going to see

14:50 – 14:53

changes in social

14:54 – 14:55

and

14:55 – 14:56

political things

14:57 – 14:58

that are happening in our

14:58 – 14:59

country and around the world.

15:00 – 15:02

We need a farming system that's

15:02 – 15:04

resilient to those.

15:06 – 15:09

So how do you develop a

15:09 – 15:11

resilient farming system?

15:12 – 15:13

The first thing, and the most

15:13 – 15:15

important thing, I think,

15:15 – 15:16

is knowledge.

15:17 – 15:19

So I feel like I'm preaching to

15:19 – 15:20

the choir here.

15:21 – 15:22

That's why you're here,

15:22 – 15:23

to get more knowledge.

15:25 – 15:27

But look around at the empty

15:27 – 15:27

chairs.

15:28 – 15:29

There's a lot of people that

15:29 – 15:30

should have been here that

15:30 – 15:31

aren't here.

15:32 – 15:35

And so that lack of knowledge is

15:35 – 15:36

going to be a big problem.

15:39 – 15:40

Another way

15:41 – 15:43

to develop resilience is through

15:43 – 15:43

diversity.

15:46 – 15:48

A corn soybean farming system is

15:48 – 15:50

not a very diverse system.

15:50 – 15:52

We need to look at other crops.

15:53 – 15:54

We need to get those

15:55 – 15:56

working for us, we need to maybe

15:56 – 15:59

look at niche markets and make

15:59 – 16:00

our farm

16:00 – 16:03

resilient to these changes.

16:04 – 16:05

So those are some of the key

16:05 – 16:06

things to look at.

16:07 – 16:08

But one of the big ones,

16:08 – 16:10

because of this economic side

16:10 – 16:12

that we're now talking about, I

16:12 – 16:15

think one of the big ones is do

16:15 – 16:17

not be reliant on outside

16:17 – 16:18

funding.

16:19 – 16:20

Fund your operation

16:20 – 16:21

yourself,

16:22 – 16:24

which may mean making your own

16:24 – 16:26

inputs on your farm.

16:27 – 16:29

we can raise covered crops, we

16:29 – 16:30

can make our own fertility that

16:30 – 16:31

way.

16:31 – 16:32

Kind of hard on your business,

16:32 – 16:33

John, but sorry.

16:36 – 16:36

But

16:36 – 16:39

another thing that I think is

16:39 – 16:41

really important is to avoid

16:41 – 16:44

listening to biased advisors.

16:45 – 16:47

I work with a lot of my

16:48 – 16:49

growers now that

16:50 – 16:53

Well, they go to their seed

16:53 – 16:55

dealer to decide what seeds

16:55 – 16:55

should I plant.

16:56 – 16:58

They go to the fertilizer dealer

16:58 – 17:00

to what fertilizer should I use.

17:01 – 17:02

And you

17:02 – 17:04

have to be really careful.

17:06 – 17:07

These people are very

17:07 – 17:08

knowledgeable about what they're

17:08 – 17:10

selling, but they're also very

17:10 – 17:11

exuberant in doing so.

17:13 – 17:15

You got to do a good job, John,

17:15 – 17:16

or you won't stay in business.

17:16 – 17:17

But

17:17 – 17:19

they can be biased.

17:19 – 17:20

And so you need to be careful.

17:20 – 17:23

to be careful to get your

17:23 – 17:25

information and knowledge from

17:25 – 17:26

unbiased providers.

17:27 – 17:28

I didn't realize I should be

17:28 – 17:29

wearing steel -toed boots up

17:29 – 17:30

here on stage.

17:30 – 17:32

Well, you said to be honest,

17:33 – 17:34

to lay it out like you see it.

17:34 – 17:35

So I did.

17:36 – 17:38

But there are a lot of good

17:38 – 17:41

people in agri -industry.

17:42 – 17:44

You have to find them,

17:44 – 17:46

because there are some that are

17:46 – 17:46

not.

17:47 – 17:49

When you speak about resilience,

17:50 – 17:51

the need to develop resilience,

17:51 – 17:52

17:52 – 17:53

want to come back to the

17:53 – 17:55

economics and the farm funding

17:55 – 17:56

piece, because I think that is a

17:56 – 17:57

very important piece.

17:57 – 17:58

But

17:57 – 18:01

one other aspect I'd like

18:01 – 18:03

to ask you about is the

18:04 – 18:06

resilience of community and

18:06 – 18:07

relationships.

18:08 – 18:10

Because when

18:11 – 18:13

we get into difficult times,

18:14 – 18:16

It is often people helping each

18:16 – 18:17

other out.

18:17 – 18:19

And this is something that I

18:19 – 18:20

think is very different today as

18:20 – 18:22

a society, culturally, is very

18:22 – 18:23

different today from what it was

18:23 – 18:24

in the 1980s.

18:25 – 18:26

People worked together

18:26 – 18:28

collaboratively much more so.

18:28 – 18:29

The agricultural community has

18:29 – 18:30

kept some of this, but society

18:30 – 18:31

at large,

18:32 – 18:34

to a large degree, has lost the

18:34 – 18:35

desire,

18:36 – 18:37

perhaps even the ability, to

18:37 – 18:38

work together effectively.

18:39 – 18:41

in equal exchange,

18:41 – 18:42

or I shouldn't even say in equal

18:42 – 18:43

exchange, but just for the

18:43 – 18:44

purpose and the sake of helping

18:44 – 18:45

each other out.

18:45 – 18:47

The farming community still does

18:47 – 18:47

that

18:48 – 18:49

reasonably well.

18:49 – 18:51

In a crisis scenario, when

18:51 – 18:52

there's a fire or something

18:52 – 18:53

happens, there's an accident,

18:53 – 18:54

something happens, people show

18:54 – 18:55

up to help each other out.

18:55 – 18:57

But that isn't routine, standard

18:57 – 18:59

operating procedure anymore, in

18:59 – 19:00

many cases, the way it was in

19:00 – 19:01

the 1980s.

19:01 – 19:03

How important is that,

19:03 – 19:05

and how important is it for us

19:05 – 19:06

to develop that?

19:07 – 19:08

I think it's very crucial.

19:10 – 19:11

During the

19:12 – 19:15

early 80s and into the 70s,

19:15 – 19:18

we saw people struggling.

19:19 – 19:22

As we went into this farm

19:22 – 19:22

crisis,

19:23 – 19:25

people were losing

19:25 – 19:28

combines or losing their new

19:28 – 19:29

tractor that they bought.

19:30 – 19:31

And then they were,

19:32 – 19:32

hey,

19:32 – 19:34

I'm not using mine that much.

19:34 – 19:35

Why don't we work together on

19:35 – 19:36

this?

19:36 – 19:38

And they started teaming up and

19:38 – 19:39

they were able to save their

19:39 – 19:42

farms and save their business.

19:43 – 19:44

was sharing equipment.

19:46 – 19:46

Today,

19:48 – 19:50

I hate to admit this, but it

19:50 – 19:52

seems like neighbors

19:52 – 19:53

sitting there watching.

19:53 – 19:54

I think,

19:54 – 19:55

I think old John's going to go

19:55 – 19:57

down. I'll get his, I'll get his

19:57 – 19:58

farm back.

19:58 – 20:00

Just let him go under,

20:00 – 20:01

you know,

20:01 – 20:02

not go help him at all.

20:02 – 20:03

That,

20:03 – 20:04

that's not going to work

20:06 – 20:06

because,

20:08 – 20:09

so you do that.

20:10 – 20:11

You get his farm.

20:12 – 20:13

You haven't paid attention to

20:13 – 20:15

what was causing that loss.

20:15 – 20:17

And that loss will come back and

20:17 – 20:18

haunt you as well.

20:19 – 20:20

Because now you're farming more

20:20 – 20:21

land,

20:21 – 20:22

you're gonna need more

20:21 – 20:22

machinery,

20:23 – 20:24

you're gonna need maybe more

20:24 – 20:25

labor,

20:26 – 20:27

and you gotta be able to find

20:27 – 20:28

it.

20:28 – 20:31

Or if you borrow money to get

20:31 – 20:32

it,

20:33 – 20:33

now that

20:34 – 20:36

economic stranglehold is there.

20:36 – 20:37

When you look at

20:38 – 20:41

how the value of farmland has

20:41 – 20:43

become disassociated with the

20:43 – 20:44

value of the crop that you are

20:44 – 20:45

producing,

20:46 – 20:48

you look at the agricultural

20:48 – 20:49

landscape, who are the possible

20:49 – 20:50

buyers of farmland today?

20:51 – 20:51

What is their defining

20:51 – 20:52

characteristic?

20:53 – 20:55

They have to have substantial

20:55 – 20:57

existing equity or financial

20:57 – 20:58

resources.

20:58 – 20:59

You cannot get into farming

20:59 – 21:00

without

21:00 – 21:02

outside or already existing

21:02 – 21:04

resources, perhaps from a

21:04 – 21:05

previous generation or from some

21:05 – 21:06

other

21:06 – 21:08

financial successes that you've

21:08 – 21:08

had.

21:09 – 21:10

When you look at that scenario,

21:11 – 21:14

it is very difficult next to

21:14 – 21:15

impossible for

21:16 – 21:17

young people who aren't already

21:17 – 21:19

in farming to get into farming

21:19 – 21:21

without significant debt.

21:22 – 21:23

And so

21:23 – 21:25

earlier

21:25 – 21:26

you mentioned

21:26 – 21:29

that we should avoid

21:30 – 21:32

using bank financing,

21:32 – 21:34

if that was my interpretation of

21:34 – 21:34

what you said.

21:35 – 21:37

And today that seems like a pipe

21:37 – 21:39

dream to most farmers.

21:39 – 21:41

How do we get ourselves into a

21:41 – 21:42

different situation?

21:42 – 21:43

Good question.

21:43 – 21:45

And I get that asked of me quite

21:45 – 21:46

often.

21:46 – 21:47

That means you should by now

21:47 – 21:48

have a good answer.

21:50 – 21:52

My grandson asked me that same

21:52 – 21:53

question.

21:55 – 21:57

He is 19

21:57 – 21:59

years old and said, Grandpa,

21:59 – 22:01

you know, I think I'd like to

22:01 – 22:02

farm.

22:02 – 22:04

How do I do that?

22:05 – 22:06

I said, well, you can't do it

22:06 – 22:07

without me.

22:08 – 22:09

And he's like,

22:10 – 22:12

You know, I mean, he's 19.

22:12 – 22:13

He's like,

22:13 – 22:14

what do you mean?

22:14 – 22:16

I can handle this.

22:17 – 22:17

I'm a man.

22:18 – 22:20

And I said, now, listen, let's

22:20 – 22:21

just do a little scenario here.

22:21 – 22:22

Here's a sheet of paper.

22:23 – 22:24

I want you to write down what

22:24 – 22:26

you need to start farming.

22:27 – 22:28

You'll need a tractor.

22:29 – 22:31

You'll need a planter.

22:32 – 22:34

So we went through the list of

22:35 – 22:36

tools that he may need.

22:36 – 22:37

I said,

22:37 – 22:38

you'll need some land.

22:39 – 22:40

And I'm going to tell you right

22:40 – 22:41

now, it's too expensive for you

22:41 – 22:42

to buy, so you're going to have

22:42 – 22:43

to rent it.

22:46 – 22:47

So you have to go out there and

22:47 – 22:48

compete and

22:48 – 22:50

get that land rented.

22:51 – 22:52

So we put down a number for

22:52 – 22:53

that.

22:53 – 22:54

We got through that list.

22:55 – 22:57

I said, OK, add that up.

22:57 – 22:58

See how does that look?

22:59 – 23:00

He pulls out his phone.

23:00 – 23:02

He types all these numbers in

23:02 – 23:02

it.

23:03 – 23:04

He said, that's $3 million.

23:05 – 23:06

I said, that's right.

23:06 – 23:07

He said, well, I don't have

23:07 – 23:08

enough money to pay first

23:08 – 23:09

semester college.

23:10 – 23:11

How am I going to get $3

23:11 – 23:12

million?

23:12 – 23:13

And I said, now do you

23:13 – 23:15

understand why I said you can't

23:15 – 23:15

farm without me?

23:17 – 23:18

Because I own the equipment.

23:19 – 23:20

It's paid for.

23:21 – 23:22

And if I want to share that with

23:22 – 23:24

you, I can get you started.

23:25 – 23:26

But without that, you're not

23:26 – 23:27

going to start.

23:28 – 23:30

And so I thought about that

23:30 – 23:31

conversation,

23:32 – 23:32

and

23:32 – 23:33

John,

23:33 – 23:34

how

23:34 – 23:35

do you There's a lot of guys out

23:35 – 23:36

there that are kind of my age

23:36 – 23:37

that are still farming.

23:38 – 23:40

We're going to reset American

23:40 – 23:41

agriculture here real soon.

23:42 – 23:43

How can we do that

23:44 – 23:45

and what will it look like?

23:46 – 23:48

Well, here's what I think what

23:48 – 23:49

it will look like without

23:49 – 23:51

significant rapid intervention.

23:52 – 23:54

I think it will look like rapid

23:54 – 23:56

consolidation because the only

23:56 – 23:58

people who can afford to buy

23:58 – 24:00

land in today's environment are

24:00 – 24:02

existing farmers or investors,

24:02 – 24:04

which spells consolidation.

24:06 – 24:07

Traveled around the world quite

24:07 – 24:08

a bit.

24:08 – 24:10

Just got back from Ukraine.

24:11 – 24:13

I was on a farm there.

24:14 – 24:15

Fairly sizable.

24:16 – 24:17

1 .1 million acres.

24:18 – 24:20

I've been traveling in Brazil.

24:21 – 24:22

Same thing.

24:22 – 24:23

Giant farms.

24:24 – 24:25

Is that the way we want to go?

24:27 – 24:27

It's the way we're going.

24:28 – 24:29

We're headed there.

24:31 – 24:33

And what that's going to do is

24:33 – 24:34

take out

24:34 – 24:36

a good majority of the people

24:36 – 24:37

here in this room.

24:38 – 24:39

We can look forward to being

24:39 – 24:41

farm workers instead of farmers.

24:42 – 24:45

And that means we become serfs?

24:45 – 24:46

Slaves? How do you want to...

24:46 – 24:47

More so than we already are?

24:48 – 24:48

Yes.

24:49 – 24:50

Yes.

24:51 – 24:52

So it's

24:52 – 24:53

happening.

24:54 – 24:56

Is that the policy that we want?

24:57 – 24:58

Ask yourself that question.

24:58 – 24:59

and

25:00 – 25:01

then do something about that

25:01 – 25:02

answer.

25:02 – 25:03

What can we do about it in our

25:03 – 25:05

own individual lives?

25:05 – 25:06

You haven't yet, I'm also

25:06 – 25:07

recognizing you haven't yet

25:07 – 25:09

answered my original question of

25:09 – 25:10

how do we put ourselves out of a

25:10 – 25:12

position of being beholden to

25:12 – 25:13

the bank?

25:14 – 25:16

What I've been working with some

25:16 – 25:19

of my young growers is I said,

25:20 – 25:21

okay, here's a way to start.

25:22 – 25:24

Go look into this

25:24 – 25:26

organic farming,

25:27 – 25:29

acquire some cattle.

25:31 – 25:33

And then be friendly with your

25:33 – 25:34

next door neighbor.

25:35 – 25:36

Let him,

25:37 – 25:38

convince him if you pasture your

25:38 – 25:39

cattle on

25:40 – 25:42

his cover crop, on his farm,

25:43 – 25:45

that that's going to benefit him

25:45 – 25:46

because he's going to get a

25:46 – 25:49

better yield from having the

25:49 – 25:50

cover crop and having it

25:50 – 25:51

pastured.

25:52 – 25:53

And you're going to do well

25:54 – 25:55

because you got free feed.

25:57 – 25:58

It's collaboration.

25:58 – 25:59

It's working together.

26:00 – 26:01

Back to what we said.

26:02 – 26:03

we did when we were really

26:03 – 26:04

pressured,

26:04 – 26:05

we worked together.

26:06 – 26:07

And so I think it's going to

26:07 – 26:09

take that kind of collaboration

26:09 – 26:11

between the

26:13 – 26:14

cash grain farmer

26:14 – 26:16

and a livestock producer

26:17 – 26:19

and

26:19 – 26:23

the elderly farming population

26:23 – 26:24

and the young population.

26:25 – 26:26

If you collaborate,

26:28 – 26:29

we'll make it, we'll survive.

26:29 – 26:32

And you'll do that without a lot

26:32 – 26:33

of borrowed money.

26:34 – 26:35

So I have conversations with

26:35 – 26:37

many of these younger,

26:37 – 26:39

both younger existing farmers

26:39 – 26:40

and younger would -be farmers,

26:40 – 26:43

who many of them are quite

26:43 – 26:46

cynical about the generosity

26:46 – 26:48

or lack thereof of the older

26:48 – 26:49

generation. They look at,

26:49 – 26:51

they're very smart young people,

26:51 – 26:52

they're capable of looking at

26:52 – 26:53

the history and

26:53 – 26:54

understanding

26:55 – 26:57

the financial opportunity, the

26:57 – 26:58

growth opportunity, and the very

26:58 – 27:00

different farming and

27:00 – 27:01

macroeconomic environment that

27:01 – 27:03

existed 20 and 30 and 40 years

27:03 – 27:04

ago.

27:04 – 27:06

And they're saying, we want to

27:06 – 27:07

farm. They're having these

27:07 – 27:08

conversations with older people.

27:08 – 27:09

But from

27:10 – 27:11

their perspective, many of the

27:11 – 27:13

older people care only about

27:13 – 27:14

cashing out.

27:15 – 27:17

They care about getting the

27:17 – 27:19

maximum of the market value for

27:19 – 27:20

their land. There isn't a

27:20 – 27:22

particularly strong interest in

27:22 – 27:23

facilitating the next generation

27:23 – 27:26

of farmers. How do we navigate

27:26 – 27:26

that scenario?

27:27 – 27:29

I see that as

27:30 – 27:33

part of our society today that

27:33 – 27:36

has been developing a concept

27:36 – 27:38

we call greed.

27:38 – 27:40

And greed is a very...

27:40 – 27:43

And it's a very powerful

27:43 – 27:44

motivator and driver.

27:44 – 27:47

And our society,

27:47 – 27:49

because of

27:49 – 27:51

all of our electronics and

27:51 – 27:52

things,

27:52 – 27:54

are seeing things happen fast.

27:55 – 27:58

We need instant gratification.

27:58 – 27:59

We can't look forward

28:00 – 28:01

very easily anymore.

28:02 – 28:03

And it's been a result of

28:03 – 28:05

some of the technologies that

28:05 – 28:07

we've acquired that have

28:07 – 28:08

certainly been helpful and

28:08 – 28:09

useful,

28:10 – 28:11

but there is a downside to that.

28:12 – 28:14

that most people don't see.

28:14 – 28:16

And I'm not bashing technology

28:16 – 28:17

because I love it.

28:17 – 28:20

I do a lot with it, but I don't

28:20 – 28:21

let it run my life.

28:21 – 28:24

I use it to better my life.

28:25 – 28:28

And when you start doing that,

28:29 – 28:30

you back away from

28:31 – 28:32

money being your

28:33 – 28:35

sole purpose in life.

28:36 – 28:37

And so,

28:37 – 28:38

okay, I'm not the youngest guy

28:38 – 28:39

here on the stage.

28:40 – 28:43

And would I like to sell my farm

28:43 – 28:45

and get all this money?

28:46 – 28:47

What would I do with it?

28:48 – 28:49

No,

28:49 – 28:50

I respect that.

28:50 – 28:52

That's pretty much it.

28:52 – 28:53

Yeah, it's so exciting.

28:54 – 28:56

I can hardly hardly wait.

28:57 – 28:58

Thanks, John.

29:00 – 29:01

Touche.

29:03 – 29:05

But I

29:05 – 29:07

think there is some of that goes

29:07 – 29:09

on, but I'm seeing a movement.

29:10 – 29:12

People are recognizing that.

29:12 – 29:13

No, maybe maybe

29:14 – 29:16

I want to want to eat here as I

29:16 – 29:18

get older. And I better have

29:18 – 29:19

somebody out there that's

29:19 – 29:20

willing to produce that food.

29:21 – 29:23

And I

29:24 – 29:26

think that if we pay attention

29:26 – 29:27

and

29:27 – 29:29

develop resilient farming

29:29 – 29:30

systems,

29:31 – 29:32

we'll survive it.

29:33 – 29:34

All right.

29:34 – 29:35

I've got about 20 other

29:35 – 29:36

questions that I'd like to ask

29:36 – 29:37

Michael, but I'd like to open it

29:37 – 29:38

up for the audience because this

29:38 – 29:39

29:39 – 29:42

a rare opportunity to have a

29:42 – 29:43

conversation with someone who

29:43 – 29:45

was actually on the inside, who

29:45 – 29:47

saw what was happening in the

29:47 – 29:48

banking industry in the 1980s

29:48 – 29:49

from the inside, who's had a

29:49 – 29:50

depth of experience.

29:51 – 29:52

So I'd like to just open it up

29:52 – 29:52

for any questions.

29:52 – 29:53

Anyone have any questions for

29:53 – 29:55

Michael or any questions on this

29:55 – 29:55

topic?

29:55 – 29:56

Yes.

29:56 – 29:57

I have two.

29:58 – 29:59

One is one

29:59 – 30:02

way to mitigate some of the risk

30:02 – 30:03

30:04 – 30:05

farms

30:06 – 30:06

going

30:07 – 30:09

away is a

30:09 – 30:12

effective succession plan.

30:13 – 30:15

So I think the whole family

30:15 – 30:17

needs to work on those

30:17 – 30:19

succession plans so that if a

30:19 – 30:22

surprise death comes along or

30:22 – 30:24

something like that, there's a

30:24 – 30:25

way to keep that

30:25 – 30:26

farm running

30:27 – 30:30

with family members, which can

30:30 – 30:32

alleviate the financial burden

30:32 – 30:33

of buying land in the first

30:33 – 30:34

place.

30:35 – 30:37

The other thing is, on the other

30:37 – 30:38

side of the coin,

30:38 – 30:40

there's plenty of people

30:40 – 30:44

that are in their 60s and 70s

30:44 – 30:46

and 80s that don't have anybody

30:46 – 30:47

30:47 – 30:49

take the farm after they die.

30:51 – 30:54

And so that's a real problem for

30:54 – 30:55

a lot of people I know.

30:56 – 30:59

And maybe you could discuss that

30:59 – 31:00

a little bit.

31:00 – 31:01

Well, I think you're on the

31:01 – 31:03

right track. Developing an

31:03 – 31:06

appropriate succession plan for

31:06 – 31:07

the land is very important.

31:08 – 31:09

However,

31:09 – 31:11

With the stroke of a pen, I can

31:11 – 31:12

be all erased.

31:12 – 31:14

So government policy is going to

31:14 – 31:15

31:15 – 31:17

really important for us to pay

31:17 – 31:19

very close attention to.

31:19 – 31:20

Can you just expand on that

31:20 – 31:21

thought for a bit?

31:21 – 31:23

How can government policy

31:23 – 31:24

destroy a succession plan?

31:25 – 31:26

You can do it

31:27 – 31:28

economically by

31:28 – 31:30

taxation.

31:32 – 31:33

So if you die,

31:35 – 31:37

you could have written all kinds

31:37 – 31:39

of great ideas on how you could

31:40 – 31:42

transition to your

31:43 – 31:45

children or your grandchildren,

31:46 – 31:47

but they could raise the tax on

31:47 – 31:49

that transition so high

31:49 – 31:50

that they'll have to sell the

31:50 – 31:51

farm to do it.

31:52 – 31:53

31:54 – 31:55

laws and rules and policy

31:55 – 31:58

changes are something we need to

31:58 – 32:00

pay a great deal of attention to

32:00 – 32:01

right now.

32:03 – 32:03

All right.

32:03 – 32:04

And OK.

32:05 – 32:06

Yes.

32:05 – 32:06

Let's go to you.

32:16 – 32:18

land, and I would have been the

32:18 – 32:19

fourth generation on my family

32:19 – 32:20

farm, but it did not.

32:21 – 32:22

There was not.

32:22 – 32:23

The

32:23 – 32:25

relationship was not there.

32:26 – 32:28

And so for my situation, I was

32:28 – 32:30

in the dream of farming, went to

32:30 – 32:31

college for agriculture.

32:31 – 32:32

It wasn't going to happen to me

32:32 – 32:33

here at my family farm.

32:34 – 32:36

So my husband and I thought how

32:36 – 32:38

much money we'd make, and it's

32:38 – 32:39

built into our real estate.

32:40 – 32:41

Build it as you're learning

32:41 – 32:42

about real estate, find rental

32:42 – 32:44

properties, build it in homes,

32:44 – 32:45

and develop a small set of

32:45 – 32:46

conditions in our town.

32:48 – 32:50

Backstorage, a few years ago, we

32:50 – 32:52

were able to purchase 320 acres

32:52 – 32:54

because of the hard work that we

32:54 – 32:55

put in for 80 years in real

32:55 – 32:56

estate.

32:56 – 33:00

So my question for you is, I now

33:00 – 33:02

have 330 acres total.

33:02 – 33:04

We are in year two of

33:04 – 33:05

transitioning out of corn and

33:05 – 33:06

soybean from vegetable

33:06 – 33:08

production to organic,

33:08 – 33:10

which entered a revolution in

33:10 – 33:10

productivity.

33:11 – 33:13

We are completely funding it

33:13 – 33:13

ourselves.

33:13 – 33:15

We do have a bank loan.

33:15 – 33:17

We have $230 ,000 loan every

33:17 – 33:18

year we have to pay.

33:19 – 33:20

Currently don't have any sheet

33:20 – 33:21

metal yet. Just put it in cash

33:21 – 33:23

during the last year.

33:25 – 33:27

What I believe would benefit me

33:27 – 33:28

is,

33:28 – 33:30

what are some ideas?

33:30 – 33:32

What is out there right now that

33:32 – 33:33

is making money?

33:33 – 33:34

What is the cutting edge?

33:34 – 33:35

What are niche markets?

33:35 – 33:37

What are value -added topics

33:37 – 33:38

that we can create?

33:39 – 33:40

Inheritance Network for me,

33:40 – 33:41

working with neighboring

33:41 – 33:43

landowners, the person we bought

33:43 – 33:45

it from was a third generation,

33:45 – 33:46

removed. They live in the

33:46 – 33:47

Northern Fairway.

33:48 – 33:49

We were in Wisconsin.

33:49 – 33:51

They didn't have any connections

33:51 – 33:52

in the land. They were renting

33:52 – 33:53

it for the last 12 years to farm

33:53 – 33:54

farmers.

33:55 – 33:56

So working with my neighbors to

33:56 – 33:58

borrow equipment, we have no

33:58 – 33:59

stock right there.

33:59 – 34:01

But we normally want to go from

34:01 – 34:03

nothing to probably 500 pounds

34:03 – 34:05

of beef cattle or roast beef

34:05 – 34:06

cattle.

34:06 – 34:09

So for me, I want to know, what

34:09 – 34:10

is this cutting edge that I can

34:10 – 34:11

get into? I'm going to have to

34:11 – 34:12

do everything from scratch.

34:12 – 34:14

I need to buy from her family.

34:14 – 34:15

I need to figure out all of the

34:15 – 34:16

meat systems.

34:16 – 34:18

If grass -fed meat is the way to

34:18 – 34:19

go.

34:19 – 34:20

But I think I would just love to

34:20 – 34:22

hear discussions like, what is

34:22 – 34:23

the next thing?

34:23 – 34:24

What is this cutting edge?

34:26 – 34:28

Well, I may give you an answer

34:28 – 34:29

that you

34:29 – 34:30

don't like,

34:31 – 34:32

but you spend a lot of time with

34:32 – 34:35

production and it's exciting.

34:35 – 34:36

you're getting really good at

34:36 – 34:37

it.

34:37 – 34:39

What you need to really get good

34:39 – 34:39

at is marketing.

34:41 – 34:43

You gotta really put some effort

34:43 – 34:44

into marketing.

34:45 – 34:47

I've noticed that as I travel

34:47 – 34:48

around the world.

34:50 – 34:52

I've met farmers that instead

34:52 – 34:54

of going down to their local co

34:54 – 34:56

-op elevator and selling their

34:56 – 34:57

product,

34:58 – 34:59

they're traveling to

35:00 – 35:01

Turkey, they're going to Israel,

35:01 – 35:03

they're going all

35:03 – 35:04

over the world.

35:05 – 35:06

in finding a market.

35:07 – 35:09

They may go to Japan and say,

35:09 – 35:11

well, I found a guy that wants

35:12 – 35:14

to buy my marifat peas.

35:15 – 35:16

And you're like, well, what kind

35:16 – 35:17

of a pea is that?

35:17 – 35:17

I don't even know what.

35:18 – 35:20

But there's the market.

35:20 – 35:21

He found a market.

35:22 – 35:22

So I'm

35:23 – 35:25

going to suggest you spend a lot

35:25 – 35:27

of time with marketing right

35:27 – 35:28

now,

35:28 – 35:29

because you've got everything

35:29 – 35:30

else

35:30 – 35:31

pretty well under control.

35:32 – 35:33

Sounds like you're doing a good

35:33 – 35:34

job there.

35:34 – 35:35

But marketing is going to be

35:35 – 35:36

really important.

35:36 – 35:38

So start looking for a market

35:38 – 35:40

for something and

35:41 – 35:41

be open -minded.

35:43 – 35:45

And you've got a guy that wants

35:45 – 35:45

something,

35:46 – 35:47

a group, company,

35:48 – 35:49

can you produce it?

35:50 – 35:52

Come home and say, yes, I can,

35:52 – 35:53

or no, I can't.

35:53 – 35:54

Go back out and look again.

35:55 – 35:57

But marketing is going to be key

35:57 – 35:59

for you to be sustainable.

36:01 – 36:02

And to build on Michael's

36:02 – 36:03

comment,

36:04 – 36:06

Sometime ago, on the podcast, I

36:06 – 36:07

interviewed a farmer from

36:07 – 36:09

Nebraska named Steve Tucker, and

36:09 – 36:10

I would highly recommend that

36:10 – 36:11

interview from a marketing

36:11 – 36:12

perspective.

36:12 – 36:14

But Steve described an

36:14 – 36:15

experience

36:15 – 36:16

that I have

36:17 – 36:20

heard people relate probably at

36:20 – 36:21

least two dozen times.

36:22 – 36:23

Steve,

36:23 – 36:26

as a farmer, went to Expo West,

36:26 – 36:27

which is the big natural health

36:27 – 36:29

products expo out in Anaheim,

36:29 – 36:30

California.

36:31 – 36:33

and walked through and visited.

36:33 – 36:34

There was all these companies

36:34 – 36:35

that have all these natural

36:35 – 36:36

products.

36:37 – 36:38

And he's like, well, where are

36:38 – 36:39

you getting the millet from?

36:39 – 36:40

Or where are you getting this

36:40 – 36:41

product from? Oh, we're getting

36:41 – 36:43

it from Japan. We're getting it

36:43 – 36:45

from overseas. They're importing

36:45 – 36:45

it.

36:45 – 36:46

I said, well, wouldn't you like

36:46 – 36:48

to source that from a farmer

36:48 – 36:48

here in North America?

36:49 – 36:50

It's like, oh, yeah, we would

36:50 – 36:50

absolutely love to.

36:50 – 36:51

We just we don't know who to

36:51 – 36:53

call. Nobody carries it.

36:53 – 36:54

Nobody's distributing it.

36:54 – 36:56

So he was able to build those

36:56 – 36:57

relationships.

36:57 – 36:59

And I've I've heard this story

36:59 – 37:00

over and over that there are

37:00 – 37:03

many emerging companies

37:04 – 37:06

that are looking for supply

37:06 – 37:08

chain of non -traditional

37:08 – 37:09

products,

37:10 – 37:11

but they don't know who to call.

37:12 – 37:13

They can't find it.

37:13 – 37:15

And the farmers aren't reaching

37:15 – 37:15

out to them.

37:16 – 37:18

So there is this mismatch.

37:18 – 37:20

There's actually a company that

37:20 – 37:21

has just launched over the last,

37:22 – 37:23

I think the last year,

37:23 – 37:24

called Rhizosphere,

37:25 – 37:27

that is intended to be kind of

37:27 – 37:29

an online dating service, if you

37:29 – 37:31

will, of matching up growers and

37:31 – 37:33

producers with buyers.

37:34 – 37:35

So that's one thing that I would

37:35 – 37:37

mention, just echoing and

37:37 – 37:38

building on Michael's comment.

37:38 – 37:39

And then there is another one,

37:40 – 37:41

and that is

37:41 – 37:44

many farmers today are trapped

37:44 – 37:46

by debt and

37:47 – 37:50

they have become inflexible on

37:50 – 37:52

the types of crops that they

37:52 – 37:53

think of themselves capable of

37:53 – 37:54

producing.

37:55 – 37:56

And

37:56 – 37:59

because they have all of this

38:00 – 38:00

capital,

38:01 – 38:03

all this capex tied up in

38:03 – 38:05

combines and tractors and grain

38:05 – 38:06

bins and everything else that

38:06 – 38:08

locks them into producing a

38:08 – 38:08

certain crop.

38:10 – 38:11

Several weeks ago,

38:11 – 38:13

I was visiting one of our

38:13 – 38:14

customers in California,

38:15 – 38:16

and he's

38:17 – 38:18

like, well, times are really

38:18 – 38:19

tough right now.

38:19 – 38:21

I wasn't able to get, we've been

38:21 – 38:22

growing onions for the last half

38:22 – 38:23

a dozen years, I wasn't able to

38:23 – 38:24

get a contract to grow onions

38:24 – 38:25

this next year.

38:25 – 38:27

I haven't been able to get a

38:27 – 38:27

contract to grow tomatoes.

38:28 – 38:28

I haven't been able to get a

38:28 – 38:29

contract to grow peppers.

38:30 – 38:31

So we're going to grow something

38:31 – 38:33

this next year, but I don't know

38:33 – 38:34

what it is. We'll just, we'll

38:34 – 38:35

pivot. We'll find something for

38:35 – 38:36

which we can have a market.

38:36 – 38:37

We'll grow something else.

38:38 – 38:40

And this was a spirit that

38:41 – 38:43

I was very familiar with because

38:43 – 38:44

I grew up on a vegetable farm.

38:45 – 38:46

And we had the same thing.

38:47 – 38:49

We were constantly, our crop mix

38:49 – 38:50

was constantly changing.

38:50 – 38:51

We didn't even have the

38:51 – 38:53

expectation that we would be

38:53 – 38:55

growing the exact same mix and

38:55 – 38:58

ratios of crops in three or four

38:58 – 38:58

years from now.

38:58 – 39:00

There was a need for constant

39:00 – 39:00

fluidity.

39:01 – 39:02

And that attitude of

39:02 – 39:03

flexibility,

39:03 – 39:05

that internal resilience

39:05 – 39:07

has been lost.

39:08 – 39:10

Both many operations don't have

39:10 – 39:13

that internal resilience because

39:13 – 39:16

of financial burden and debt

39:16 – 39:17

obligations and so forth, but

39:17 – 39:18

they also have lost it

39:18 – 39:19

internally,

39:19 – 39:20

where they don't have the

39:20 – 39:22

internal resilience or the

39:22 – 39:24

desire to look for other crops

39:24 – 39:25

and look for other

39:25 – 39:26

opportunities. So that is

39:26 – 39:28

something that I would point out

39:28 – 39:29

also, I believe is highly

39:29 – 39:30

important, is to develop that

39:30 – 39:31

internal flexibility.

39:32 – 39:33

We have another question over

39:33 – 39:34

here.

39:50 – 39:52

I don't have a qualified

39:52 – 39:53

opinion, but he does.

40:12 – 40:14

by two people who encountered

40:14 – 40:16

it, who put it into this cross,

40:17 – 40:20

which then is made available for

40:20 – 40:22

new farmers.

40:23 – 40:25

And with all sorts of them more,

40:25 – 40:27

get them to the point where they

40:27 – 40:30

have the expertise to grow the

40:30 – 40:31

crops.

40:32 – 40:34

And essentially,

40:35 – 40:38

it allows young people to get

40:38 – 40:40

into agriculture like that,

40:41 – 40:42

just like

40:42 – 40:43

that.

40:45 – 40:47

They don't have that damage on

40:47 – 40:48

the Asian part.

40:49 – 40:51

And they have the support of

40:51 – 40:52

being healthy and experts in

40:52 – 40:54

behavior culture.

40:54 – 40:58

So this collaborative strategy

40:58 – 40:59

is important,

41:00 – 41:02

and it's something that can be

41:02 – 41:04

cultivated in any local area.

41:04 – 41:06

All it took were a couple people

41:06 – 41:07

to say, hey, you know what?

41:07 – 41:08

There's a problem here.

41:09 – 41:12

Let's begin to work on this as a

41:12 – 41:13

community.

41:14 – 41:15

And the two, that's the key.

41:38 – 41:39

Don't tell that to a bureaucrat

41:39 – 41:41

in DC. They will figure out a

41:41 – 41:41

way.

41:46 – 41:47

Thank you, John.

41:48 – 41:49

You have a question here?

41:54 – 41:55

My opinion of the farm usually

41:55 – 41:56

has this,

41:56 – 41:58

or what we've done before is,

41:59 – 41:59

41:59 – 42:01

don't know if we've gone into

42:01 – 42:03

debt and we've at least spent

42:04 – 42:05

as many money

42:05 – 42:08

we do have on infrastructure for

42:08 – 42:09

the farm.

42:09 – 42:12

Are you suggesting not to go

42:12 – 42:14

into debt or to spend it on any

42:14 – 42:17

preservers? on the farm this

42:17 – 42:18

coming year,

42:18 – 42:20

or what's your thought on that?

42:50 – 42:52

Financing, you talked about your

42:52 – 42:54

grandfather financing the farm

42:54 – 42:55

and

42:55 – 42:56

paid it off in four years.

42:57 – 42:58

That's reasonable.

42:58 – 43:00

You can probably trust

43:00 – 43:02

things not to change too

43:02 – 43:04

dramatically over a two, three,

43:04 – 43:05

four year period.

43:05 – 43:07

But if you got to do it over a

43:07 – 43:08

30 year period,

43:09 – 43:11

be very cautious about doing

43:11 – 43:13

that in today's environment.

43:20 – 43:21

Appreciate you having this

43:21 – 43:21

conversation, John.

43:22 – 43:23

I had so many thoughts when we

43:23 – 43:24

were starting.

43:24 – 43:26

We most of the time, at the end

43:26 – 43:27

of the day, when we're in

43:27 – 43:28

economics, we are rangers, we

43:28 – 43:29

always look at this.

43:30 – 43:31

I mean, that finance

43:31 – 43:32

conversation, right?

43:33 – 43:34

The average ranger in the U .S.

43:34 – 43:35

loses

43:35 – 43:37

1 1⁄2 % of his or her investment

43:37 – 43:38

if he falls back from the ranger

43:38 – 43:39

group.

43:39 – 43:40

So,

43:40 – 43:41

the payback period isn't quite

43:41 – 43:42

the same, do you think?

43:43 – 43:44

Because the rangers aren't

43:44 – 43:45

making money.

43:45 – 43:47

They're always making money the

43:47 – 43:48

way they did.

43:48 – 43:49

Did you make more money than I

43:49 – 43:50

do, John? Remember I mentioned

43:50 – 43:51

you were a ranger?

43:52 – 43:54

I was walking somewhere in

43:54 – 43:55

Hartford yesterday to come up

43:55 – 43:56

with a conversation, to have a Q

43:56 – 43:58

&A, where people were trying to

43:58 – 43:59

pass a

43:59 – 44:00

chalkboard.

44:00 – 44:01

And kind

44:02 – 44:03

of in critical of three

44:03 – 44:05

generations, one of the problems

44:05 – 44:06

here is

44:06 – 44:07

that

44:07 – 44:10

for, what, 40 years, have 17

44:10 – 44:11

,000

44:38 – 44:39

Real estate should be now a

44:39 – 44:40

reventure for a lot of people.

44:41 – 44:43

It's all trying to play grass

44:43 – 44:45

-cut games based on inflation,

44:45 – 44:46

right?

44:47 – 44:48

And

44:48 – 44:49

it's then this macroeconomic

44:49 – 44:51

policy that's forcing a tension

44:51 – 44:53

between the boomers and the

44:53 – 44:54

younger generation,

44:55 – 44:56

trying to borrow the farmer,

44:57 – 44:58

because the boomers have been

44:58 – 45:01

squeezed by this extractive

45:01 – 45:02

nature of inflation.

45:02 – 45:04

And now we're doing nothing to

45:04 – 45:05

pass along, because they don't

45:05 – 45:07

have the money to go to

45:07 – 45:08

sustained retirement, besides

45:08 – 45:09

transferring the asset,

45:10 – 45:11

which means you can't afford to

45:11 – 45:12

transfer money.

45:13 – 45:14

And so, at the end of our route

45:14 – 45:15

for my century,

45:15 – 45:16

through the profit model,

45:17 – 45:19

we still have no money, no land,

45:19 – 45:21

no cattle, no flat land, or any

45:21 – 45:23

of the rest of the five years.

45:23 – 45:25

We are going to do all the

45:25 – 45:26

problems that we want.

45:26 – 45:28

And the challenge is then that

45:28 – 45:29

we don't hate ourselves.

45:30 – 45:30

We're not hating anyone.

45:31 – 45:32

We just believe that

45:32 – 45:34

In order for us to raise money

45:34 – 45:36

with all these children, we have

45:36 – 45:37

to go out there and do it.

45:37 – 45:38

And we have to do something for

45:38 – 45:39

everybody, including the people

45:39 – 45:40

behind this.

45:41 – 45:43

So a lot of the young people are

45:43 – 45:45

walking away with the question

45:45 – 45:46

of the U .S.

45:45 – 45:46

government

45:45 – 45:46

trying

45:47 – 45:48

to sell a product to the

45:48 – 45:48

children.

45:49 – 45:50

I feel instead of like

45:51 – 45:52

Andy said in there, we have to

45:52 – 45:54

understand the dilemma from the

45:54 – 45:55

older generation's perspective.

45:57 – 45:59

They got extracted from and

45:59 – 46:00

gained with monetary policy.

46:00 – 46:02

Back to the conversation you had

46:02 – 46:04

earlier about monetary policy

46:04 – 46:04

for the U .S.

46:05 – 46:06

as a whole has a recurrence of

46:06 – 46:08

the gutter of agriculture being

46:08 – 46:09

naturally based, and even more

46:09 – 46:10

than that, the work of

46:10 – 46:11

generation, and the amplitude of

46:11 – 46:12

the consequences.

46:14 – 46:16

The same thing that we're in a

46:16 – 46:18

place where we

46:19 – 46:21

have a gutter of capital -based

46:21 – 46:21

inclination,

46:21 – 46:22

soil,

46:22 – 46:23

health,

46:23 – 46:24

money, culture, labor,

46:25 – 46:26

functional work of generation,

46:27 – 46:28

and everything in that body,

46:29 – 46:31

and we're trying to take

46:31 – 46:32

responsibility for fixing that.

46:33 – 46:35

But we're all trying to figure

46:35 – 46:36

out how to make that happen.

46:37 – 46:38

And it goes to what you were

46:38 – 46:40

saying of the inheritance and

46:40 – 46:42

the youth and all 40 of them

46:42 – 46:43

together.

46:43 – 46:45

How do you guys promote the

46:45 – 46:46

young people over me,

46:47 – 46:49

start to finally connect with

46:50 – 46:52

those that are going to work for

46:52 – 46:53

a non -financial,

46:53 – 46:54

non -profit for the next,

46:55 – 46:56

figure out how to actually

46:56 – 46:58

restore the capital base of the

46:58 – 47:01

society, including mentoring the

47:01 – 47:02

younger generation of the

47:02 – 47:03

private citizens again.

47:03 – 47:04

Because

47:04 – 47:05

trying to do it now is killing.

47:11 – 47:12

47:14 – 47:16

your question, Joel, succinctly

47:16 – 47:17

is how do we propose that a

47:17 – 47:19

younger generation connect and

47:19 – 47:20

interact and develop those

47:20 – 47:21

relationships with the older

47:21 – 47:22

generation, is that it?

47:29 – 47:30

Well,

47:42 – 47:43

you brought up a very

47:44 – 47:46

important problem and it is very

47:46 – 47:47

difficult to do.

47:48 – 47:49

I am seeing an increase though

47:49 – 47:50

in interest

47:51 – 47:52

47:52 – 47:54

moving capital

47:56 – 47:58

to the younger generation.

48:00 – 48:02

It's easier to do within the

48:02 – 48:03

family than

48:04 – 48:04

it is

48:05 – 48:06

outside of the family.

48:07 – 48:08

And outside of the family,

48:08 – 48:11

the land trust idea is a good

48:11 – 48:13

one. And I've worked with that

48:13 – 48:15

some, and it works quite well.

48:16 – 48:18

But within the family,

48:19 – 48:20

there's always

48:21 – 48:22

stresses.

48:23 – 48:24

So we call them family stresses

48:24 – 48:26

that make things difficult.

48:31 – 48:32

We need change.

48:33 – 48:35

Change comes fastest with

48:36 – 48:37

pressure,

48:39 – 48:41

be that political pressure, be

48:41 – 48:42

that economic pressure.

48:43 – 48:45

And we are going to be pressured

48:45 – 48:46

48:46 – 48:48

the next few years.

48:48 – 48:51

And so I'm going to get brave

48:51 – 48:52

and say we're going to see a

48:52 – 48:54

major reset in American

48:54 – 48:55

agriculture,

48:55 – 48:57

probably in the next five years.

48:59 – 49:00

And when you think we're going

49:00 – 49:01

to have a major reset within the

49:01 – 49:03

next five years, what are the,

49:04 – 49:05

I know you don't have a crystal

49:05 – 49:06

ball and

49:06 – 49:07

you're not investing,

49:08 – 49:09

but

49:10 – 49:12

You have the benefit of having

49:12 – 49:14

had experience kind of from an

49:14 – 49:15

inside point of view during the

49:15 – 49:16

80s.

49:17 – 49:18

What do you think that reset

49:18 – 49:20

might look like from your

49:20 – 49:21

perspective?

49:21 – 49:22

What are some of the things that

49:22 – 49:23

you see emerging that other

49:23 – 49:24

people might not see?

49:26 – 49:28

I see it potentially going two

49:29 – 49:30

different directions,

49:31 – 49:32

and it may go both directions at

49:32 – 49:33

the same time.

49:33 – 49:35

I see that there'll be a

49:35 – 49:37

reduction in the number of

49:37 – 49:38

farmers and an increase in farm

49:38 – 49:39

size.

49:39 – 49:40

That's one direction.

49:41 – 49:43

I also think that we're going to

49:43 – 49:45

see an increase in very small

49:45 – 49:46

farms and

49:47 – 49:48

more food production.

49:49 – 49:50

As we learn that food is

49:50 – 49:51

medicine,

49:52 – 49:53

it's taking us a while to figure

49:53 – 49:53

that one out,

49:54 – 49:56

but as we do that, we're going

49:56 – 49:58

to see smaller operations

50:00 – 50:01

growing.

50:03 – 50:05

Talking to one of my friends at

50:05 – 50:06

John Deere,

50:07 – 50:07

he said, well,

50:08 – 50:10

the largest selling tractor

50:10 – 50:11

right now

50:11 – 50:13

is a 25 to

50:14 – 50:16

40 horsepower tractor.

50:16 – 50:18

That's our big market.

50:19 – 50:20

I said, well, who's buying

50:20 – 50:21

those?

50:21 – 50:23

Well, people are going out and

50:23 – 50:25

getting a 20 -acre tract of land

50:25 – 50:27

or 10 -acre tract of land or a 5

50:27 – 50:30

-acre tract of land and growing

50:30 – 50:30

food.

50:31 – 50:33

And so I think that we're going

50:33 – 50:34

to see that

50:35 – 50:36

increase,

50:36 – 50:37

and the population is going to

50:37 – 50:39

move out of urban areas into

50:39 – 50:40

that.

50:41 – 50:42

So you're going to see the big

50:42 – 50:44

ones, they're going to happen,

50:44 – 50:45

and you're going to see the

50:45 – 50:46

little ones increase.

50:47 – 50:49

So I'd like to build on the

50:49 – 50:50

question that the young lady

50:50 – 50:52

asked earlier about where the

50:52 – 50:54

economic opportunity is in grass

50:54 – 50:55

-fed beef production,

50:56 – 50:58

and ask a version of that

50:58 – 50:59

question of

50:59 – 51:00

where is the economic

51:00 – 51:03

opportunity and where is the

51:03 – 51:04

community -building opportunity

51:05 – 51:05

for

51:06 – 51:08

the younger generation that

51:08 – 51:11

perhaps is developing financial

51:11 – 51:12

resources outside of

51:12 – 51:13

agriculture, coming into

51:13 – 51:14

agriculture in a smaller way?

51:14 – 51:15

So this second track, this

51:15 – 51:17

second pathway that you just got

51:17 – 51:18

done describing,

51:19 – 51:20

There

51:20 – 51:23

is a measure of

51:23 – 51:25

frustration or dissatisfaction

51:25 – 51:26

by many who are getting into

51:26 – 51:27

this space and doing smaller

51:27 – 51:29

scale vegetable production or

51:29 – 51:29

fruit production,

51:30 – 51:31

CSAs perhaps,

51:32 – 51:33

whatever the case might be.

51:33 – 51:35

And they work

51:36 – 51:39

very hard for 10 or 15 years

51:39 – 51:40

and

51:40 – 51:41

they achieve some level of

51:41 – 51:43

success but they've worn out

51:43 – 51:44

their body in the process.

51:44 – 51:46

And they realize at some point

51:46 – 51:48

that that pathway for many

51:48 – 51:50

hasn't been sustainable.

51:50 – 51:51

for the long term.

51:52 – 51:52

So,

51:53 – 51:54

there's kind of a two -fold

51:54 – 51:56

question here, is where is the

51:56 – 51:58

economic opportunity for those

51:58 – 52:00

people, for that group of people

52:00 – 52:01

who wants to come in with more

52:01 – 52:02

limited personal resources?

52:03 – 52:05

And kind of a related question

52:05 – 52:06

to that is,

52:07 – 52:08

speaking to the community

52:08 – 52:10

resilience piece that you spoke

52:10 – 52:11

about earlier, where is the

52:11 – 52:12

opportunity and the pathway for

52:12 – 52:13

building community?

52:15 – 52:18

I'll share a personal experience

52:18 – 52:19

that I observed.

52:21 – 52:23

I live in Kossuth County, Iowa.

52:25 – 52:27

It's a double county, so it's a

52:27 – 52:28

large county.

52:29 – 52:31

In Kossuth and Palo Alto

52:31 – 52:32

counties,

52:33 – 52:35

five years ago, we had 2 ,200

52:35 – 52:37

acres of row crop organic

52:37 – 52:38

farming,

52:39 – 52:41

a fairly nice amount.

52:42 – 52:43

This past spring,

52:44 – 52:46

we planted a little over 120

52:46 – 52:47

,000.

52:48 – 52:51

So there's been a shift there.

52:52 – 52:54

What did that do to our

52:54 – 52:55

community?

52:56 – 52:58

Well, I live in Algona.

52:59 – 53:01

It's a small rural town in

53:01 – 53:02

Kossuth County.

53:04 – 53:05

Main Street was

53:06 – 53:07

dying.

53:09 – 53:11

If you go down in the middle of

53:11 – 53:11

the afternoon,

53:12 – 53:13

drive down Main Street, you'd

53:13 – 53:14

probably see one or two cars

53:14 – 53:15

parked in front of the bank,

53:17 – 53:18

maybe

53:19 – 53:20

one in front of

53:21 – 53:22

a restaurant,

53:23 – 53:23

maybe two.

53:26 – 53:27

three or four or five in front

53:27 – 53:27

of the bar,

53:28 – 53:28

unfortunately.

53:32 – 53:34

There'd be some in front of the

53:34 – 53:36

dentist's office and that type

53:36 – 53:38

of similar service offices were

53:38 – 53:39

still there.

53:39 – 53:40

That was it.

53:42 – 53:43

Today,

53:45 – 53:47

if you drive down Main Street,

53:47 – 53:50

say a Thursday afternoon,

53:51 – 53:52

you're gonna have a hard time

53:52 – 53:53

finding a place to park.

53:54 – 53:55

You're probably gonna have to go

53:55 – 53:57

to a side street or maybe one of

53:57 – 53:58

the parking lots behind the

53:58 – 53:59

stores.

54:00 – 54:01

What happened?

54:02 – 54:05

The more money is staying in

54:05 – 54:05

that community,

54:06 – 54:07

and that community's coming back

54:07 – 54:08

alive.

54:09 – 54:11

So as we change our agricultural

54:11 – 54:12

systems,

54:13 – 54:14

rural communities can thrive

54:14 – 54:15

again,

54:16 – 54:17

and there is proof of it there.

54:18 – 54:19

Okay, very good.

54:19 – 54:20

I want to go back, come over

54:20 – 54:21

here to the question.

54:50 – 54:52

If we as an older generation,

54:53 – 54:55

sorry to sound mad, but we're

54:55 – 54:56

takers,

54:57 – 54:59

we need to be givers now to

54:59 – 55:02

rebuild the human biology that

55:03 – 55:06

this gentleman is, obviously is.

55:06 – 55:08

He's trying to find somebody

55:08 – 55:10

that's a giver to

55:10 – 55:11

help

55:11 – 55:13

rebuild not only what's in the

55:13 – 55:14

brain on

55:15 – 55:16

your own farm, and maybe you can

55:16 – 55:20

help him help you rebuild that

55:20 – 55:21

biology in your farm.

55:22 – 55:23

But a comment about Dr.

55:23 – 55:24

Lyons'

55:24 – 55:26

question for State of Ontario.

55:27 – 55:29

When I went to Ball Lake, I was

55:29 – 55:32

told that if you invested or

55:32 – 55:33

even lost a bit of dollar, you

55:33 – 55:34

could go to the bank,

55:35 – 55:37

multiplied seven times in the

55:37 – 55:38

local community.

55:40 – 55:41

Oh, I can't remember the name,

55:41 – 55:44

but there was a deal here in the

55:44 – 55:46

90s that for each dollar you

55:46 – 55:47

spent on supplements,

55:48 – 55:49

by the way, we're buying

55:49 – 55:51

supplements to realize those

55:51 – 55:52

things weren't in our food.

55:52 – 55:54

For each dollar you spent on

55:54 – 55:55

supplements,

55:56 – 55:58

you saved $40 from the risk of

55:58 – 55:59

life of a pharmaceutical.

56:00 – 56:01

So if you went to this

56:01 – 56:03

gentleman's farm and

56:03 – 56:04

bought his food,

56:05 – 56:07

that then negated it into

56:07 – 56:07

perceptibles.

56:08 – 56:10

He put the money in the bank,

56:11 – 56:14

multiplied seven times 40,

56:14 – 56:17

280 multiplier in the local

56:17 – 56:18

community.

56:18 – 56:20

But I want to give this

56:20 – 56:22

gentleman a hand for being the

56:22 – 56:24

biology that we need above the

56:24 – 56:26

soil he is trying so hard to

56:26 – 56:27

make it work.

56:28 – 56:29

Amen.

56:30 – 56:30

Thank you.

56:31 – 56:32

John,

56:36 – 56:37

can I add more to that?

56:38 – 56:39

Yes.

56:40 – 56:41

As a young guy without a message

56:41 – 56:43

in life, how can I find the

56:43 – 56:44

older generation to help me?

56:44 – 56:46

I'm not primarily talking about

56:46 – 56:47

the financial.

56:48 – 56:49

I've done a really good job, you

56:49 – 56:51

know, figuring out how to

56:51 – 56:52

finalize my occupation.

56:53 – 56:55

My biggest pain point is not

56:55 – 56:56

being able to train the younger

56:56 – 56:57

generation.

56:57 – 56:58

They have a school system that's

56:58 – 57:00

all about recruiting and

57:00 – 57:02

information rather than critical

57:02 – 57:02

thinking.

57:02 – 57:04

They don't have much chance to

57:04 – 57:05

learn skills, and they get in

57:05 – 57:06

trouble with their whole life,

57:06 – 57:07

and it's hard to work for it.

57:09 – 57:12

I am spending more money to

57:12 – 57:13

redeem the states and hold

57:13 – 57:15

states to try to train new

57:15 – 57:16

people to turn them into useful

57:16 – 57:18

workers in the labor force and

57:18 – 57:20

global economy than I am on

57:20 – 57:21

pain.

57:22 – 57:24

I need help from elders to help

57:24 – 57:26

me mentor the young generation.

57:26 – 57:27

Because if I don't have

57:27 – 57:29

experience to teach them the

57:29 – 57:30

character and wisdom that they

57:30 – 57:31

need,

57:31 – 57:33

I'm not going to survive the

57:33 – 57:34

economics of pain and mistakes.

57:36 – 57:38

And I can't be an executive at a

57:38 – 57:40

family farm while also trying to

57:40 – 57:41

be a mom

57:41 – 57:44

to a whole handful of kids that

57:44 – 57:45

I'm trying to turn into workers.

57:45 – 57:47

I can do it a little bit.

57:47 – 57:48

I don't have the intensity, the

57:48 – 57:51

time required to restore the

57:51 – 57:52

keeping my own family in

57:52 – 57:54

operation while trying to also

57:54 – 57:55

be an executive at a new

57:55 – 57:57

apartment that I might have to

57:57 – 57:58

still afford.

58:12 – 58:14

You've identified a problem that

58:14 – 58:16

I think we're all struggling

58:16 – 58:17

with right now.

58:18 – 58:20

It sort of has to do with a

58:20 – 58:20

cycle

58:21 – 58:23

that you have a

58:26 – 58:28

difficult life and

58:29 – 58:30

then you have a very good life

58:30 – 58:31

of opulence.

58:32 – 58:33

than a difficult,

58:33 – 58:35

and the generations go from

58:35 – 58:36

generation to generation.

58:38 – 58:40

And so if you're coming off of a

58:40 – 58:42

difficult time

58:42 – 58:43

period,

58:43 – 58:44

I think of the depression.

58:46 – 58:49

Strong men make good

58:49 – 58:51

times, good times make weak men.

58:51 – 58:53

That describes it perfectly.

58:54 – 58:56

And we are right now in the good

58:56 – 58:58

times are making weak men.

59:03 – 59:04

That's what we're talking about

59:04 – 59:05

today.

59:05 – 59:06

It looks like we're going to

59:06 – 59:07

change that,

59:08 – 59:10

and with that change will come

59:10 – 59:11

some pain,

59:12 – 59:13

and with that pain will come

59:13 – 59:14

some good men.

59:17 – 59:18

Sorry, Joel, that's somewhat of

59:18 – 59:19

a non -answer, but that's the

59:19 – 59:21

best answer you're getting at

59:21 – 59:21

the moment.

59:22 – 59:24

Troy, could you step back to the

59:24 – 59:25

microphone so we can capture the

59:25 – 59:26

recording? And while you're

59:26 – 59:27

doing that, I'll go to Nigel.

1:00:02 – 1:00:03

1:00:04 – 1:00:05

there the ability for victory

1:00:05 – 1:00:06

gardens?

1:00:06 – 1:00:08

It's a great idea.

1:00:09 – 1:00:12

I spent a month in Ukraine

1:00:12 – 1:00:14

this summer

1:00:15 – 1:00:17

and they have torn up their

1:00:18 – 1:00:18

lawns.

1:00:19 – 1:00:20

There are no more lawns.

1:00:21 – 1:00:23

It's from the edge of the house

1:00:23 – 1:00:25

to the edge of their neighbor's

1:00:25 – 1:00:26

house is all garden.

1:00:27 – 1:00:28

That's their victory garden.

1:00:29 – 1:00:30

Again, adversity

1:00:31 – 1:00:33

probably brought that on.

1:00:35 – 1:00:37

But what I experienced while

1:00:37 – 1:00:39

traveling there was some really

1:00:39 – 1:00:40

good food.

1:00:41 – 1:00:42

It was really, really good.

1:00:43 – 1:00:45

Nutrient -dense, good flavor.

1:00:47 – 1:00:49

So these home gardens are

1:00:49 – 1:00:50

growing really good food.

1:00:52 – 1:00:52

Can we do that?

1:00:53 – 1:00:54

Yes, we can.

1:00:54 – 1:00:55

Do we want to do it?

1:00:56 – 1:00:58

Maybe we're a little lazy, I

1:00:58 – 1:00:59

don't know.

1:00:59 – 1:01:00

Maybe we don't have the

1:01:00 – 1:01:02

adversity and the pressure to do

1:01:02 – 1:01:04

it, but I think that the time is

1:01:04 – 1:01:07

coming when we realize that

1:01:07 – 1:01:09

quality of our food is going to

1:01:09 – 1:01:10

be very important.

1:01:11 – 1:01:12

I'm reminded of a phrase.

1:01:13 – 1:01:15

I've repeated it several times

1:01:15 – 1:01:16

already here at this event.

1:01:16 – 1:01:18

It was originally coined by

1:01:18 – 1:01:19

Charles Walters, who was the

1:01:19 – 1:01:20

original founder of Acres USA,

1:01:22 – 1:01:24

and he repeated frequently

1:01:25 – 1:01:27

people leave their census as a

1:01:27 – 1:01:28

group,

1:01:28 – 1:01:29

and they come to their census

1:01:29 – 1:01:29

one at a time,

1:01:31 – 1:01:33

unless you have

1:01:33 – 1:01:35

significant adversity, as in

1:01:35 – 1:01:36

Ukraine,

1:01:36 – 1:01:37

and then you can have, and so,

1:01:38 – 1:01:42

as painful as this may sound

1:01:42 – 1:01:43

to say,

1:01:43 – 1:01:44

and it is painful for me to say

1:01:44 – 1:01:45

this,

1:01:45 – 1:01:47

but perhaps the adversity hasn't

1:01:47 – 1:01:48

become significant enough yet.

1:01:49 – 1:01:50

Perhaps the pain hasn't become

1:01:50 – 1:01:52

significant enough yet to really

1:01:52 – 1:01:54

inspire systemic, a desire for

1:01:54 – 1:01:56

systemic level change within

1:01:56 – 1:01:57

society as a whole.

1:01:59 – 1:02:00

Yes.

1:02:00 – 1:02:02

I just had a thought,

1:02:02 – 1:02:04

regarding Joel's question.

1:02:05 – 1:02:06

That is something we can hear,

1:02:07 – 1:02:07

we can

1:02:08 – 1:02:10

see the wealth of knowledge and

1:02:10 – 1:02:12

inspiration that it has,

1:02:14 – 1:02:15

and that it's all been

1:02:15 – 1:02:16

happening.

1:02:16 – 1:02:19

And I'm here with such a

1:02:19 – 1:02:20

community of people.

1:02:21 – 1:02:23

And that maybe we have to recall

1:02:23 – 1:02:26

that he needs to have at

1:02:26 – 1:02:28

least one or two chains of

1:02:28 – 1:02:29

labor.

1:02:29 – 1:02:30

It's not a recommendation,

1:02:30 – 1:02:33

it can be a desire to justify

1:02:33 – 1:02:34

being a partisan.

1:02:35 – 1:02:37

kind of knowledge, and they even

1:02:37 – 1:02:39

feel that they're part of the

1:02:39 – 1:02:40

system that's changing,

1:02:41 – 1:02:42

that they know that they're not

1:02:42 – 1:02:45

just working in a little area,

1:02:45 – 1:02:46

that they're working on this

1:02:46 – 1:02:47

farm,

1:02:47 – 1:02:48

and they're,

1:02:48 – 1:02:50

okay, this is all working with

1:02:50 – 1:02:50

them.

1:02:50 – 1:02:52

They actually see that they're

1:02:52 – 1:02:54

really part of the transition.

1:02:55 – 1:02:56

So when that comes with

1:02:56 – 1:02:58

knowledge and education,

1:02:58 – 1:03:00

they have so much technology to

1:03:00 – 1:03:02

put this knowledge on.

1:03:02 – 1:03:04

And then we'll buy it as a

1:03:04 – 1:03:04

trial,

1:03:04 – 1:03:06

not on their cell phone,

1:03:06 – 1:03:08

to distract them, to let them

1:03:08 – 1:03:10

know how someone can buy your

1:03:10 – 1:03:11

phone.

1:03:11 – 1:03:12

You acknowledge,

1:03:13 – 1:03:15

by some way or another, where

1:03:15 – 1:03:17

you sat with the other human

1:03:17 – 1:03:19

consulting folks.

1:03:19 – 1:03:22

So that's just something that

1:03:22 – 1:03:23

makes this knowledge spread

1:03:23 – 1:03:26

around to the people in your

1:03:26 – 1:03:29

community in some form or

1:03:31 – 1:03:44

another.

1:03:52 – 1:03:55

in allowing us to access the

1:03:55 – 1:03:57

wisdom of previous generations.

1:03:57 – 1:03:59

It can be a very valuable tool

1:03:59 – 1:04:00

for that. However,

1:04:00 – 1:04:02

I'm of the persuasion that

1:04:03 – 1:04:04

the

1:04:04 – 1:04:06

venue or the means of

1:04:07 – 1:04:08

giving access to that

1:04:08 – 1:04:09

information is

1:04:10 – 1:04:11

perhaps more important than the

1:04:11 – 1:04:12

information itself.

1:04:13 – 1:04:14

And to state it directly,

1:04:15 – 1:04:18

I'm of the opinion that

1:04:18 – 1:04:20

human -to -human communication

1:04:21 – 1:04:22

we can convey and communicate

1:04:22 – 1:04:24

things and connect with people's

1:04:24 – 1:04:25

hearts and minds in ways that we

1:04:25 – 1:04:26

will never be able to with

1:04:26 – 1:04:27

technology.

1:04:28 – 1:04:29

At least I sure hope that

1:04:29 – 1:04:29

remains the case.

1:04:31 – 1:04:32

You

1:04:32 – 1:04:33

know, the

1:04:34 – 1:04:36

very first time I had Michael on

1:04:36 – 1:04:36

the podcast,

1:04:37 – 1:04:38

1:04:39 – 1:04:41

first interview with him is

1:04:41 – 1:04:42

still to this day one of the

1:04:42 – 1:04:44