Brad McIntyre, a fourth-generation farmer in Caldwell, Idaho, has transformed his family’s operation along the Snake River Basin, scaling back from 3,000 to 1,000 acres due to urbanization and rising costs. Inspired by no-till pioneers, he now manages a diverse farm with seed production, grass-finished beef, pastured pork, poultry, and eggs; all non-GMO.
Brad advances regenerative agriculture through no-till farming, diverse rotations, and cover crops, maintaining yields while cutting inputs. He produces locally adapted, high-quality seeds with strong germination for companies like Green Cover Seed. His livestock integration enhances soil health, and direct-to-consumer meat sales promote community health and sustainability.
In this episode, John and Brad discuss:
Brad’s shift from conventional hay work to regenerative farming
No-till seed production for brassicas and alfalfa with better germination
Epigenetic seed adaptations for local resilience
Livestock integration for soil health and direct meat sales
Direct-to-consumer marketing with consistent, local products
The role of soil health in sustainable farming and stewardship
Additional Resources
To read Biochemical Individuality by Roger J. Williams, a book exploring how individual biochemical differences influence flavor perception, click here
To learn more about Green Cover Seed, visit their website: https://greencover.com/
About John Kempf
John Kempf is the founder of Advancing Eco Agriculture (AEA). A top expert in biological and regenerative farming, John founded AEA in 2006 to help fellow farmers by providing the education, tools, and strategies that will have a global effect on the food supply and those who grow it.
Through intense study and the knowledge gleaned from many industry leaders, John is building a comprehensive systems-based approach to plant nutrition – a system solidly based on the sciences of plant physiology, mineral nutrition, and soil microbiology.
Support For This Show & Helping You Grow
Since 2006, AEA has been on a mission to help growers become more resilient, efficient, and profitable with regenerative agriculture.
AEA works directly with growers to apply its unique line of liquid mineral crop nutrition products and biological inoculants. Informed by cutting-edge plant and soil data-gathering techniques, AEA’s science-based programs empower farm operations to meet the crop quality markers that matter the most.
AEA has created real and lasting change on millions of acres with its products and data-driven services by working hand-in-hand with growers to produce healthier soil, stronger crops, and higher profits.
Beyond working on the ground with growers, AEA leads in regenerative agriculture media and education, producing and distributing the popular and highly-regarded Regenerative Agriculture Podcast, inspiring webinars, and other educational content that serve as go-to resources for growers worldwide.
Learn more about AEA’s regenerative programs and products: https://www.advancingecoag.com
Podcast Transcript
0:00 – 0:01
All right.
0:05 – 0:07
Hi, friends. Welcome to the
0:07 – 0:07
Regenerative Agriculture
0:07 – 0:09
Podcast. This is Jon Kempf.
0:09 – 0:11
And I really enjoy having
0:11 – 0:14
conversations where we discuss
0:14 – 0:16
all the various aspects of soil
0:16 – 0:17
health,
0:17 – 0:19
plant health, livestock health,
0:19 – 0:20
human health,
0:20 – 0:22
and how we can how we can
0:22 – 0:23
steward and manage and optimize
0:23 – 0:24
these ecosystems for the best
0:24 – 0:26
performance of everyone.
0:27 – 0:29
And today we have a conversation
0:29 – 0:30
I've been looking forward to for
0:30 – 0:32
a while with Brad McIntyre out
0:32 – 0:33
of Idaho, if I'm not mistaken.
0:35 – 0:36
Brad is
0:36 – 0:38
As a fairly diverse operation
0:38 – 0:39
doing a number of different
0:39 – 0:40
things you know it's when you
0:40 – 0:41
have this diversity of
0:41 – 0:43
perspective you develop
0:43 – 0:46
your own perspective on what's
0:46 – 0:47
happening in your local context
0:47 – 0:48
that is perhaps more nuanced
0:48 – 0:49
than if
0:49 – 0:51
you're just doing one or two
0:51 – 0:52
things. Even if you're doing
0:52 – 0:53
those one or two things really
0:53 – 0:55
well there's a diversity of
0:55 – 0:55
perspective that's really
0:55 – 0:56
beneficial.
0:56 – 0:57
So
0:56 – 0:58
Brad thank you for being here.
0:58 – 0:59
Thank you for all the work that
0:59 – 1:01
you're doing on your operation.
1:01 – 1:02
Why don't you
1:02 – 1:04
Well, let's begin by you giving
1:04 – 1:06
us a bit of the context of the
1:06 – 1:07
scope of your operation,
1:08 – 1:09
the environment, the ecosystem
1:09 – 1:11
that you're farming in and what
1:11 – 1:12
your operation looks like.
1:13 – 1:14
Yeah. Thanks, John, for having
1:14 – 1:16
me. I've been excited to sit
1:16 – 1:17
down and chat with you.
1:17 – 1:18
I've listened to a lot of your
1:18 – 1:21
podcasts and learned and grown
1:21 – 1:23
through those. So I really
1:23 – 1:24
appreciate this opportunity.
1:25 – 1:27
We are in
1:27 – 1:28
Caldwell, Idaho.
1:29 – 1:31
We farm right here on the Snake
1:31 – 1:33
River Basin. We're about a mile
1:33 – 1:35
and a half up off the river.
1:35 – 1:36
So we
1:36 – 1:39
have a very diverse soil types
1:39 – 1:40
through each field.
1:41 – 1:43
And we're in a fairly populated
1:43 – 1:44
area.
1:44 – 1:46
We're out on the outskirts of
1:46 – 1:48
it, but we have smaller field
1:48 – 1:50
sizes and a lot of pressure from
1:51 – 1:53
people moving out and building
1:53 – 1:55
houses. And so that
1:55 – 1:57
has kind of shaped what our
1:57 – 1:58
business looks like today.
1:58 – 2:00
But I am a farmer.
2:00 – 2:02
generation farmer here in this
2:02 – 2:02
area.
2:02 – 2:05
And I, my, actually, my children
2:05 – 2:05
are going to be fifth
2:05 – 2:06
generation. So we're really
2:06 – 2:07
proud of that.
2:08 – 2:09
We
2:09 – 2:11
mainly row crop seed, a lot of
2:11 – 2:12
seed crop in this area.
2:12 – 2:14
And as
2:14 – 2:16
we were growing our farm, as I
2:16 – 2:17
was, as a kid, we were growing,
2:18 – 2:20
doing a lot of custom work in
2:20 – 2:21
the hay industry, alfalfa
2:21 – 2:21
industry.
2:22 – 2:23
We were, you
2:24 – 2:25
know, doing a lot.
2:25 – 2:28
anywhere from 4 ,000 to 5 ,000
2:28 – 2:28
acres of cutting,
2:30 – 2:32
and really just
2:32 – 2:34
heavy in equipment and
2:35 – 2:35
labor.
2:36 – 2:37
And it was getting to the point
2:37 – 2:38
as these steel sizes were
2:38 – 2:40
shrinking because of housing,
2:40 – 2:41
roads were busier,
2:42 – 2:43
we really started
2:43 – 2:46
trying to understand what the
2:46 – 2:47
future looks like for us and our
2:47 – 2:48
business,
2:49 – 2:51
and equipment costs continuing
2:51 – 2:52
to go up.
2:53 – 2:55
We just came to the point where
2:55 – 2:56
we realized that that wasn't
2:56 – 2:57
going to be something that was
2:57 – 2:59
going to be good for the future
2:59 – 2:59
And
3:00 – 3:02
so we started scaling that back
3:02 – 3:03
in the same time I
3:04 – 3:06
was I'm always in that mindset
3:06 – 3:08
of trying to find ways to do
3:08 – 3:10
things easier better and I was
3:10 – 3:12
Looking for a rock picker
3:12 – 3:13
because of the snake we were
3:13 – 3:14
playing we have a lot of rocks
3:14 – 3:15
down here and so I was looking
3:15 – 3:17
for a mechanical rock picker and
3:17 – 3:19
it led me down a rabbit hole of
3:19 – 3:21
someone that quit using the rock
3:21 – 3:22
picker because of no till and
3:23 – 3:25
And from there, I found the No
3:25 – 3:28
-Till Conference in Indiana to
3:28 – 3:28
go to,
3:29 – 3:30
and there I met Gabe Brown,
3:31 – 3:32
Ray Archuleta, and
3:32 – 3:34
I just never looked back.
3:34 – 3:35
I came home,
3:35 – 3:36
instead of looking at equipment,
3:37 – 3:39
I came home worried about soil
3:39 – 3:40
health.
3:40 – 3:42
And so as we're winding that
3:42 – 3:44
custom hire business down,
3:44 – 3:46
really focusing in on soil
3:46 – 3:48
health and getting the family on
3:48 – 3:49
board with that,
3:50 – 3:51
because I have my father here
3:51 – 3:53
still, and I have my brother,
3:53 – 3:54
Ben,
3:53 – 3:56
and also my brother, Brian and
3:56 – 3:58
Spencer work in and out of the
3:58 – 3:59
business with us.
3:59 – 4:01
We all got excited about it.
4:01 – 4:03
And so we went headlong into
4:03 – 4:05
soil health and all those
4:05 – 4:06
aspects of no -till,
4:07 – 4:08
animals,
4:09 – 4:10
you know, how do we cover crops?
4:11 – 4:12
How do we do this the very best?
4:12 – 4:13
And so our business has kind of
4:13 – 4:15
evolved from that passion.
4:15 – 4:17
So now currently today,
4:17 – 4:18
we
4:18 – 4:20
still farm around 1000 acres.
4:20 – 4:22
We went from 3000 to 1000.
4:23 – 4:24
We have
4:25 – 4:26
livestock on the farm.
4:26 – 4:27
We do direct sales,
4:28 – 4:29
meat direct sales of grass
4:29 – 4:30
finished beef,
4:30 – 4:31
pastured pork,
4:32 – 4:32
pastured poultry,
4:33 – 4:34
and that's broilers and
4:35 – 4:37
turkeys. And then we have egg
4:37 – 4:38
layers also on pasture.
4:39 – 4:40
And so that business has really
4:40 – 4:42
evolved, but it all centers
4:42 – 4:43
around soil health
4:44 – 4:46
and how do we make our local
4:46 – 4:47
ecosystem better?
4:47 – 4:50
And then also how do we feed our
4:50 – 4:51
local
4:51 – 4:53
people and get them healthier?
4:56 – 4:57
And are you doing any
4:58 – 5:00
crop production other than
5:00 – 5:01
through the livestock?
5:01 – 5:02
Is it primarily all livestock
5:02 – 5:03
and grazing and grass -based
5:03 – 5:04
focus at this point?
5:05 – 5:06
We do still do some seed
5:06 – 5:09
production. We raise brassica
5:09 – 5:11
seeds because we do run a seed
5:11 – 5:12
house as part of that.
5:12 – 5:16
So we clean and process seed and
5:16 – 5:16
bag it
5:17 – 5:19
custom and also for ourselves.
5:20 – 5:22
So a lot of purple top turnip
5:22 – 5:23
and then other,
5:24 – 5:25
you know, if we get contracts on
5:25 – 5:26
other brassica seeds, we'll,
5:26 – 5:27
we'll raise them.
5:27 – 5:29
I sell quite a bit of seed to
5:29 – 5:31
green cover seed.
5:31 – 5:33
And so that's been about a third
5:33 – 5:34
of our business is doing the
5:34 – 5:34
seeds.
5:35 – 5:36
And then a third is that direct
5:36 – 5:39
sales and a third is other
5:39 – 5:40
cropping that we don't need for
5:40 – 5:42
the animals or the seed that we
5:42 – 5:43
sell commercially into the
5:44 – 5:45
feedlots and dairies around
5:45 – 5:46
here.
5:47 – 5:49
And those crops that you're
5:49 – 5:50
selling with those
5:49 – 5:52
also be grain crops, corn, etc.?
5:53 – 5:55
Yeah, corn mainly is what we
5:55 – 5:57
sell outside of what our needs
5:57 – 5:58
are for
5:58 – 6:01
the farm and for the seed house.
6:01 – 6:02
And everything we do is non
6:02 – 6:03
-GMO.
6:04 – 6:05
And that way that can work back
6:05 – 6:07
and forth for our own animals.
6:08 – 6:10
I've not visited your operation.
6:10 – 6:11
I don't remember the rainfall
6:11 – 6:13
context, but if I remember
6:13 – 6:14
correctly from some of our
6:14 – 6:15
earlier conversations, you are
6:15 – 6:17
doing a lot of irrigation and
6:17 – 6:18
you have some very challenging
6:18 – 6:19
irrigation water quality.
6:21 – 6:23
Yeah, we are fully irrigated.
6:23 – 6:25
If we didn't have irrigation, we
6:25 – 6:26
would have no cropland here.
6:28 – 6:30
Rainfall is anywhere in that 8
6:30 – 6:30
to 10
6:30 – 6:32
inch range for the whole year,
6:33 – 6:35
but most of it falls from
6:35 – 6:37
October to May.
6:40 – 6:41
And so that summertime is very
6:41 – 6:42
dry. We actually just had a
6:43 – 6:44
a heavy rainfall event the last
6:44 – 6:45
couple of days.
6:45 – 6:46
We got right at two inches of
6:46 – 6:47
rain,
6:48 – 6:49
inch and a half one day and a
6:49 – 6:51
half inch the next day, which is
6:51 – 6:53
unheard of in our area.
6:53 – 6:54
But that's what we've been
6:54 – 6:55
seeing more and more is
6:56 – 6:59
longer periods of drought and
6:59 – 7:01
then really intense storms that
7:01 – 7:03
aren't, that hasn't been normal.
7:03 – 7:04
That's where we're starting to
7:04 – 7:05
see this change.
7:09 – 7:10
Yeah, I think weather patterns
7:10 – 7:11
are
7:12 – 7:14
shifting as land use shifts all
7:14 – 7:16
around the country and
7:17 – 7:18
I'm really intrigued with some
7:18 – 7:19
of the work that Alfalo and some
7:19 – 7:20
of his colleagues are pointing
7:20 – 7:21
to about how we can use
7:21 – 7:23
agriculture and landscape
7:23 – 7:25
management to change regional
7:25 – 7:26
rainfall patterns.
7:26 – 7:27
But that's a conversation for
7:27 – 7:28
another day, I suppose.
7:28 – 7:29
Yeah.
7:29 – 7:29
Yeah.
7:31 – 7:33
Yeah. So you
7:33 – 7:35
have a few aspects that I'd love
7:35 – 7:36
to get into. But, you know,
7:37 – 7:39
when you mentioned the seed
7:39 – 7:40
production, I remember I
7:41 – 7:42
think it might have been at a
7:42 – 7:44
Green Cover Nexus event where
7:44 – 7:44
you
7:45 – 7:46
were talking about your seed
7:46 – 7:47
production and the custom seed
7:47 – 7:48
work that you do, and you had
7:48 – 7:50
two different seed lines.
7:50 – 7:52
You had the lifeline and the
7:52 – 7:53
deathline.
7:53 – 7:54
I still remember that quote.
7:55 – 7:56
Tell us a little bit about that.
7:57 – 7:59
Yeah, so just the way we treat
7:59 – 8:03
seed is, you know, if a customer
8:03 – 8:05
wants it treated with chemical,
8:05 – 8:07
it's the deathline.
8:07 – 8:09
And if we treat it with,
8:11 – 8:12
biologicals, inoculants,
8:12 – 8:14
and whatever that has life in
8:14 – 8:15
it,
8:15 – 8:16
it goes through a different, you
8:16 – 8:18
know, different line.
8:18 – 8:20
And so you have life and death.
8:21 – 8:22
And so I always like focusing on
8:22 – 8:23
the life side.
8:24 – 8:25
And yeah,
8:25 – 8:26
it's just one of those.
8:27 – 8:28
And I like to think about it
8:28 – 8:30
like that, because we're always
8:30 – 8:31
out to kill something, or we're
8:31 – 8:32
always out to keep something
8:32 – 8:33
alive.
8:33 – 8:34
I'd way rather focus on,
8:35 – 8:37
I call them my livestock in the
8:37 – 8:38
soil.
8:38 – 8:39
And then I've got my livestock
8:39 – 8:41
on the above the soil.
8:41 – 8:42
So
8:42 – 8:43
I would way rather be focused on
8:43 – 8:45
keeping something alive than
8:45 – 8:46
killing something.
8:50 – 8:51
Brad, one of the things that I'm
8:51 – 8:52
intrigued by,
8:52 – 8:54
have been for a long time, is
8:54 – 8:55
just the
8:56 – 8:59
significant gap that appears to
8:59 – 9:00
be present in commercially
9:00 – 9:01
produced seed
9:02 – 9:04
where there doesn't appear to be
9:04 – 9:05
any
9:05 – 9:08
emphasis or focus on quality
9:09 – 9:12
other than quality defined as
9:12 – 9:13
germination rate.
9:14 – 9:16
So when you look at longevity,
9:16 – 9:18
you look at seedling vigor and
9:18 – 9:19
so forth, seed size, test
9:19 – 9:20
weight,
9:20 – 9:23
energy content, you can consider
9:23 – 9:24
all these various parameters.
9:25 – 9:26
So how
9:26 – 9:29
do you think about producing
9:29 – 9:31
quality seed and what are the
9:31 – 9:33
factors that are particularly
9:33 – 9:34
important and valuable to you?
9:36 – 9:38
Yeah, I mean, we're graded in
9:38 – 9:41
the seed industry by our germ
9:41 – 9:44
and, you know, how pure the seed
9:44 – 9:45
is.
9:45 – 9:46
And that's, that's what
9:46 – 9:48
everyone's, you know, buys off
9:48 – 9:50
of and rates everything off of.
9:51 – 9:54
The one thing that I have found
9:54 – 9:56
really interesting with
9:56 – 9:57
my,
9:58 – 10:00
like, if you take purple top
10:00 – 10:02
turnip into perspective, when
10:03 – 10:05
I took over the seed house from
10:05 – 10:06
the gentleman, there was three
10:06 – 10:08
lots of seed that were in that
10:08 – 10:09
building
10:08 – 10:10
of purple top turnip that
10:10 – 10:12
were under germ that
10:12 – 10:13
never could,
10:14 – 10:15
you know, they were like in that
10:15 – 10:16
50 to 60 % germ range.
10:18 – 10:20
And they all had been raised in
10:20 – 10:22
the, you know, conventional way
10:22 – 10:24
in rows, lots of fertilizer,
10:24 – 10:26
lots of tillage
10:26 – 10:27
to keep them clean.
10:28 – 10:30
And I started raising purple
10:31 – 10:33
top turnip in,
10:33 – 10:35
and I was just, you know,
10:35 – 10:37
drilling it. So it was in that
10:37 – 10:38
seven inch
10:38 – 10:39
spacing with a no -till drill.
10:40 – 10:42
And everyone told me,
10:42 – 10:44
You know, you're crazy.
10:44 – 10:47
And I'm like, well, I don't do
10:47 – 10:48
tillage. So I got to figure out
10:48 – 10:49
how to raise the seed crop.
10:50 – 10:51
And they wouldn't give me a
10:51 – 10:52
contract. And that's when I
10:52 – 10:53
started working with green
10:53 – 10:54
cover. And I said, Hey,
10:54 – 10:56
I want to be focused on no till
10:56 – 10:56
because I want to be focused on
10:56 – 10:57
my soil.
10:58 – 11:00
Are you willing to purchase from
11:00 – 11:01
me? And they said, Yeah, if
11:01 – 11:02
you're gonna be focused on soil,
11:03 – 11:04
yeah, we'll definitely support
11:04 – 11:05
you. And that's how it all got
11:05 – 11:07
started. But the one thing is,
11:07 – 11:08
is I've
11:08 – 11:10
in in when it comes to those
11:10 – 11:11
brassicas, I've never had a bad
11:11 – 11:12
germ.
11:12 – 11:15
And my germ typically gets
11:15 – 11:18
better as it's sitting there and
11:18 – 11:20
it doesn't sit real long.
11:20 – 11:22
But I've actually held a box
11:22 – 11:23
back and I've tested it.
11:24 – 11:25
It's four years old now and it
11:25 – 11:28
is maintaining like 95 % germ.
11:29 – 11:31
What creates that?
11:31 – 11:32
You're smarter than me and you'd
11:32 – 11:33
be able to
11:33 – 11:35
maybe answer that.
11:35 – 11:37
but there's something to soil
11:37 – 11:40
health that's keeping that germ
11:40 – 11:42
and everything really good on
11:42 – 11:42
that.
11:42 – 11:44
Hang on, you've literally got me
11:44 – 11:46
scratching my forehead here.
11:46 – 11:48
How does germination rate
11:48 – 11:49
improve over time?
11:49 – 11:50
I didn't know such a thing was
11:50 – 11:51
possible.
11:51 – 11:52
I don't know.
11:54 – 11:55
That certain lot started like at
11:55 – 11:56
91, and maybe it's a seed lab
11:56 – 11:58
issue, but
11:58 – 12:01
that germ has got better.
12:02 – 12:04
Like an alfalfa seed and clover
12:04 – 12:05
seed, there's hard seed.
12:05 – 12:07
And so maybe there's hard seed
12:07 – 12:09
that they test as bad germ.
12:10 – 12:13
You get that recording in
12:13 – 12:14
alfalfa and clover,
12:15 – 12:15
but
12:15 – 12:17
on brassica, maybe there's a
12:17 – 12:18
hard seed aspect to it.
12:18 – 12:19
I don't know, but
12:19 – 12:20
that
12:20 – 12:21
something,
12:21 – 12:23
that seed is staying viable.
12:23 – 12:24
And I've yet, in all the years
12:24 – 12:26
I've grown in
12:27 – 12:29
my no -till system, I've never
12:29 – 12:30
had a bad germ.
12:30 – 12:32
Maybe I just, I need to find,
12:32 – 12:34
maybe I'm jinking myself, but
12:34 – 12:36
I've never had a bad germ.
12:37 – 12:39
And there's some sort of, I feel
12:39 – 12:41
like it's in the way we're
12:41 – 12:42
raising it.
12:43 – 12:44
And how
12:44 – 12:45
has
12:46 – 12:48
seed size or
12:48 – 12:51
seed weight perhaps, there's
12:51 – 12:52
both a size and a weight
12:52 – 12:53
component, but how
12:53 – 12:55
has seeds per pound changed?
12:55 – 12:57
How is it different in the 90 %
12:57 – 12:59
germ versus the 50 to 60 % germ?
13:02 – 13:03
They're typically,
13:04 – 13:05
you know,
13:05 – 13:08
it's such a small seed anyways,
13:08 – 13:09
but it's very,
13:09 – 13:12
I would say average size.
13:12 – 13:13
It's not super plump.
13:14 – 13:16
But the box weight is heavier,
13:17 – 13:19
where a lot of my standard box
13:19 – 13:20
size
13:21 – 13:22
for a brassica when I'm
13:22 – 13:24
went for other growers when they
13:24 – 13:26
come in, we'll have around that
13:26 – 13:29
2350 pounds or 2400 pounds.
13:30 – 13:33
This specific lot that I've kept
13:33 – 13:35
back is closer to 2 ,500 pounds,
13:35 – 13:36
so it's denser.
13:38 – 13:39
Yeah.
13:40 – 13:43
And in addition to the shift
13:43 – 13:45
from tillage production to a no
13:45 – 13:45
-till production,
13:46 – 13:48
what has the shift been in
13:48 – 13:50
nutrition management and
13:50 – 13:51
herbicide, pesticide management
13:51 – 13:52
and so forth?
13:54 – 13:55
So on those,
13:56 – 13:57
like when you're looking at the
13:57 – 13:59
brassicas type seeds,
14:01 – 14:03
We've tried doing pre -emergence
14:03 – 14:04
for weeds and stuff.
14:06 – 14:07
And I don't,
14:08 – 14:10
in the no -till system, I don't
14:10 – 14:11
see any change.
14:11 – 14:13
So we've backed off of doing any
14:13 – 14:14
of those. We just plant it
14:14 – 14:16
thicker than the industry says
14:16 – 14:17
to plant it.
14:17 – 14:19
We do get some mustard that come
14:19 – 14:20
in,
14:20 – 14:22
but with me controlling the
14:22 – 14:23
cleaning side, I can get those
14:23 – 14:24
out.
14:24 – 14:25
Here and there we'll have some
14:25 – 14:26
issues, but it takes a little
14:26 – 14:28
bit extra work and extra passes,
14:28 – 14:29
but
14:29 – 14:31
I can take the time because I
14:31 – 14:33
have the machines to do it, to
14:33 – 14:34
get it clean.
14:35 – 14:37
And so no herbicide,
14:38 – 14:39
and I haven't,
14:42 – 14:43
I can't say I haven't, there's
14:43 – 14:44
been times,
14:44 – 14:45
I would say half of the years I
14:45 – 14:47
don't have to do anything for
14:47 – 14:48
pests.
14:48 – 14:49
We do struggle with,
14:50 – 14:50
oh,
14:52 – 14:53
I'm gonna forget,
14:55 – 14:55
you might have to cut this, I'm
14:55 – 14:56
trying to remember the exact
14:56 – 14:57
pest.
14:59 – 15:01
It's a weevil, a cabbage seed
15:01 – 15:01
pod weevil.
15:02 – 15:03
We do struggle with cabbage seed
15:03 – 15:04
pod weevil.
15:04 – 15:06
And so the years that it comes
15:06 – 15:07
in heavy and early, we will have
15:07 – 15:08
to take care of it.
15:08 – 15:10
But other than that, I just
15:10 – 15:11
usually if it comes in late, I
15:11 – 15:13
just let it, you
15:14 – 15:15
know, run its course.
15:16 – 15:18
And maybe it knocks yield out,
15:18 – 15:19
maybe it doesn't.
15:19 – 15:20
I've never tested that.
15:20 – 15:22
I just don't, I try not to
15:22 – 15:23
spray.
15:23 – 15:24
And so we were able to really
15:24 – 15:25
kind of
15:25 – 15:26
And then
15:26 – 15:28
on our nitrogen, we will put
15:28 – 15:30
some nitrogen on it,
15:30 – 15:32
but we follow your nitrogen
15:32 – 15:32
recipe.
15:33 – 15:35
And so we were able to use about
15:35 – 15:36
half of what the industry says
15:36 – 15:37
to use.
15:38 – 15:39
And we seem to have really,
15:40 – 15:40
really healthy
15:41 – 15:42
seed.
15:44 – 15:46
Taking this approach, what does
15:46 – 15:48
your seed productivity per acre
15:48 – 15:50
look like in terms of pounds per
15:50 – 15:52
acre, yield per acre of actual
15:52 – 15:54
pounds as compared to the
15:54 – 15:55
historical trend?
15:59 – 16:00
Our average,
16:01 – 16:02
I would say we're in the
16:02 – 16:03
average. We haven't seen a real
16:03 – 16:05
big jump in
16:05 – 16:06
yield,
16:07 – 16:09
but we definitely had the
16:09 – 16:12
reduction in expenses and high
16:12 – 16:13
quality seed,
16:13 – 16:15
but not ever losing a crop,
16:15 – 16:16
that's important.
16:18 – 16:19
You may not have seen an
16:19 – 16:21
increase in yield, but have you
16:21 – 16:22
seen any yield reductions?
16:24 – 16:24
No,
16:24 – 16:25
no.
16:26 – 16:27
In no -till in general,
16:27 – 16:30
everyone said, oh, just plan on
16:30 – 16:32
a yield reduction as you get
16:32 – 16:32
going.
16:35 – 16:37
From where our yields were, we
16:37 – 16:38
flatlined for a couple of years.
16:38 – 16:40
We did not grow, but we didn't
16:40 – 16:41
fall.
16:41 – 16:43
And then we've slowly been on an
16:43 – 16:43
incline.
16:45 – 16:47
And there's some random years
16:47 – 16:49
with other issues, like on corn,
16:49 – 16:50
might have a little bit of a
16:50 – 16:51
lag.
16:51 – 16:54
You can always tie it back to a
16:54 – 16:54
management issue,
16:56 – 16:58
but we've been able to actually
16:58 – 17:01
increase our yields through no
17:01 – 17:01
-till
17:02 – 17:04
almost every year.
17:06 – 17:08
What do you attribute to the
17:08 – 17:09
fact that you did not have a
17:09 – 17:11
yield decline as was predicted
17:11 – 17:13
and suggested you should expect?
17:16 – 17:17
I
17:17 – 17:19
don't know if I can really put
17:19 – 17:20
my finger on it.
17:21 – 17:23
The first, when we started no
17:23 – 17:25
-till, it was all behind alfalfa
17:25 – 17:26
into small grains.
17:27 – 17:29
And then from there, we would go
17:29 – 17:31
into corn or other seed crops
17:31 – 17:32
from that point.
17:32 – 17:33
And so the
17:33 – 17:35
nice thing about no -tilling
17:35 – 17:37
into alfalfa is you had those
17:37 – 17:39
big channels for that root
17:39 – 17:41
decay, and then those roots can
17:41 – 17:42
keep going down those channels
17:42 – 17:44
and so get through the
17:44 – 17:45
compaction areas.
17:45 – 17:47
And a diverse rotation.
17:47 – 17:49
We're not just corn, soybeans.
17:49 – 17:51
We have a lot of different crops
17:51 – 17:52
we can grow in our
17:53 – 17:54
county.
17:55 – 17:56
And so
17:56 – 17:58
that, I think, helps a lot with
17:58 – 18:00
that decline is we're not just
18:01 – 18:02
corn on corn, corn, beans.
18:03 – 18:04
You know, we have that diverse
18:04 – 18:05
rotation and all that
18:05 – 18:07
root matter and stuff dying
18:07 – 18:09
down. And we just
18:09 – 18:10
never saw it.
18:13 – 18:14
I want to dig into the livestock
18:14 – 18:15
side of the operation,
18:16 – 18:17
understand that a bit better as
18:17 – 18:18
well.
18:17 – 18:18
But while we're having this
18:18 – 18:19
conversation about seed
18:19 – 18:20
production,
18:21 – 18:23
Um, where, where do you see the
18:23 – 18:24
opportunities for
18:25 – 18:26
people,
18:26 – 18:28
uh, in seed production or to
18:28 – 18:29
grow their own seed?
18:29 – 18:31
Where do you, it seems to me
18:31 – 18:33
from some of the conversations I
18:33 – 18:34
overhear, and I'm not deeply
18:34 – 18:36
embedded in this space, so I
18:36 – 18:37
don't know the details, but it
18:37 – 18:38
seems to me that there,
18:38 – 18:41
um, is a reasonable amount of
18:41 – 18:43
unsupplied demand in this space.
18:43 – 18:44
What are you seeing?
18:45 – 18:47
Yeah, I think the biggest thing
18:47 – 18:48
is finding the
18:48 – 18:49
right buyer
18:50 – 18:51
and
18:51 – 18:53
the seed industry is, is kind of
18:53 – 18:55
in a lull at the moment.
18:56 – 18:58
With ag economy where it's at,
18:59 – 19:01
farmers are kind of rocking back
19:01 – 19:02
on their heels and not knowing
19:02 – 19:03
really what to do.
19:03 – 19:05
So there's kind of a kind of a
19:05 – 19:06
weird spot right now.
19:06 – 19:07
But I
19:08 – 19:10
still think people need
19:10 – 19:12
to be growing as much of their
19:12 – 19:13
own seed as possible.
19:13 – 19:14
Just when you look at
19:15 – 19:18
epigenetics in their local
19:18 – 19:19
growing region,
19:20 – 19:21
why not be focused on that?
19:26 – 19:27
I know that in some of the group
19:27 – 19:29
discussions with Green Cover,
19:29 – 19:30
we've had some conversations
19:30 – 19:32
about epigenetic variability in
19:32 – 19:33
various regions.
19:33 – 19:34
Have you experienced any of that
19:34 – 19:35
in your own seed production?
19:38 – 19:39
I think
19:41 – 19:43
the biggest thing,
19:43 – 19:45
I always save seed back
19:45 – 19:47
that like my purple top turnip,
19:48 – 19:50
I guess unless I have a problem,
19:50 – 19:51
I always try to, you know, keep
19:51 – 19:53
quarantine and then save my seed
19:53 – 19:54
back.
19:56 – 19:58
One thing that I saw that was
19:58 – 20:00
was pretty crazy in the
20:00 – 20:00
epigenetic side,
20:01 – 20:02
we
20:02 – 20:04
took over a farm that had
20:04 – 20:06
previously had
20:06 – 20:10
someone raised a forage collard
20:10 – 20:11
on it.
20:11 – 20:12
And so this
20:13 – 20:14
person,
20:14 – 20:16
they had the collard, somebody
20:16 – 20:17
else took the farm over and
20:17 – 20:18
raised onions and bell peppers
20:18 – 20:19
on this farm.
20:20 – 20:21
And
20:21 – 20:22
this
20:22 – 20:23
area of the field that they
20:24 – 20:25
didn't wanna farm because the
20:25 – 20:26
soil was really poor.
20:27 – 20:28
These forage collards kept
20:28 – 20:30
coming back and reseeding,
20:30 – 20:31
but they were not receiving any
20:31 – 20:32
water.
20:32 – 20:33
And so we're in this really,
20:33 – 20:35
really low rainfall environment,
20:36 – 20:38
but those forage collards just
20:38 – 20:39
kept growing back and they got
20:39 – 20:41
this really heavy stand.
20:41 – 20:45
And so when I took that
20:46 – 20:47
back,
20:47 – 20:47
that
20:47 – 20:50
place back, I started farming it
20:50 – 20:51
again.
20:52 – 20:52
And so
20:53 – 20:55
this had been two years of no
20:56 – 20:57
irrigation.
20:58 – 21:00
I had the guy go up and harvest
21:00 – 21:02
those, and those things went
21:03 – 21:05
almost 3 ,000 pounds to the
21:05 – 21:06
acre,
21:05 – 21:07
and they've had no nutrients,
21:07 – 21:09
no water, and then they had just
21:09 – 21:11
receded. two years in a row,
21:11 – 21:12
well, three years in a row,
21:13 – 21:14
right in the same area.
21:15 – 21:16
And so then I
21:16 – 21:17
took that seed and used it in my
21:17 – 21:18
cover crop mixes,
21:19 – 21:20
and
21:20 – 21:21
that seed
21:22 – 21:24
had grown like, I mean, it
21:24 – 21:26
just was so much bigger.
21:26 – 21:28
It was, you know, probably six
21:28 – 21:29
inches taller than the other
21:29 – 21:31
seed that you could buy of the
21:31 – 21:32
same variety.
21:33 – 21:34
And there was just something
21:35 – 21:37
that had happened as it went
21:37 – 21:39
through all that drought and
21:39 – 21:40
stress,
21:42 – 21:43
something with the epigenetics.
21:43 – 21:45
And would that react in other
21:45 – 21:46
people's area?
21:45 – 21:46
I don't know.
21:46 – 21:47
But in our area,
21:48 – 21:50
that seed was pretty amazing in
21:50 – 21:51
the mixes.
21:53 – 21:54
What would be intriguing now is
21:54 – 21:55
to take some of that seed and
21:55 – 21:56
take it into other areas and see
21:56 – 21:57
how it responds in other areas.
21:58 – 21:59
Yeah, yeah, it would be.
22:00 – 22:01
But I know there's, as it
22:01 – 22:02
adapts, I mean,
22:02 – 22:04
we grow alfalfa seed.
22:05 – 22:07
We have a line of alfalfa seed.
22:07 – 22:09
And the guy that I purchased the
22:10 – 22:11
the seed house from,
22:11 – 22:14
his theory on alfalfa seed was
22:14 – 22:15
to
22:15 – 22:16
always take
22:17 – 22:20
seed from his new field from his
22:20 – 22:20
oldest field,
22:22 – 22:23
because that seed,
22:23 – 22:24
that alfalfa was adapting.
22:25 – 22:27
And so he would take seed from
22:27 – 22:28
the oldest field and plant the
22:28 – 22:29
new field.
22:29 – 22:30
And then he was always, as he
22:30 – 22:31
planted new fields,
22:32 – 22:33
he would do that.
22:33 – 22:33
And so that's what we've been
22:33 – 22:34
trying to do.
22:35 – 22:36
And
22:36 – 22:38
I'm a firm believer that are
22:39 – 22:40
you getting the very best
22:41 – 22:43
testing alfalfa out there doing
22:43 – 22:44
that?
22:44 – 22:45
Probably not. That's the
22:45 – 22:46
argument always out there.
22:47 – 22:48
You know, are you missing out
22:48 – 22:48
on,
22:48 – 22:50
you know, 10 more points of
22:50 – 22:51
relative feed value?
22:52 – 22:53
Maybe.
22:54 – 22:55
But most of the time when you're
22:55 – 22:57
harvesting alfalfa, it comes
22:57 – 22:59
down to a management issue or a
22:59 – 23:01
weather issue of what you did
23:01 – 23:03
creates the issue with the
23:03 – 23:04
quality, right?
23:04 – 23:05
Timing and all that.
23:06 – 23:06
So I
23:06 – 23:08
would rather have a plant that's
23:08 – 23:09
really hardy for my area
23:10 – 23:13
and just stays in and grows in
23:13 – 23:16
its environment better than
23:16 – 23:17
these racehorse type varieties
23:17 – 23:18
that in three years,
23:19 – 23:20
there's just no stand left.
23:23 – 23:25
So when you consider selecting
23:25 – 23:26
or when
23:26 – 23:28
you've taken this approach of
23:28 – 23:30
keeping the oldest alfalfa and
23:30 – 23:31
it was also
23:31 – 23:33
the approach utilized by your
23:33 – 23:34
predecessor, how old alfalfa
23:34 – 23:36
fields and stands do you have at
23:36 – 23:36
this point?
23:37 – 23:38
How long are you able to
23:38 – 23:39
maintain them?
23:41 – 23:45
He would leave fields in 10 to
23:45 – 23:45
12 years,
23:47 – 23:48
his alfalfa seed fields.
23:48 – 23:51
The thinner they are, it
23:51 – 23:53
would still produce well,
23:54 – 23:56
and then you're rotating it out.
23:59 – 24:00
You're probably getting a
24:00 – 24:03
certain root type that's going
24:03 – 24:03
to
24:04 – 24:06
last longer, is my assumption.
24:07 – 24:08
branch types might be going
24:08 – 24:09
away,
24:09 – 24:11
and that more tap roots are
24:11 – 24:11
staying.
24:11 – 24:14
That's just my assumption.
24:15 – 24:16
But,
24:16 – 24:18
you know, as we planted those,
24:18 – 24:19
you know, into forage
24:19 – 24:20
production,
24:21 – 24:22
they weren't, I did a nine way
24:22 – 24:25
study on a field one year, and I
24:25 – 24:26
had some really expensive
24:26 – 24:28
varieties all the way down to
24:28 – 24:29
this variety from the neighbor
24:29 – 24:30
at the time, I didn't own it
24:30 – 24:31
yet.
24:31 – 24:33
And it,
24:34 – 24:36
it was the number three on the
24:36 – 24:38
first year on yield and quality.
24:39 – 24:40
And then it was the number two.
24:40 – 24:41
And then it was number one
24:41 – 24:42
through,
24:42 – 24:43
you know, so on the third year
24:43 – 24:44
was number one, and the fourth
24:44 – 24:46
and fifth year is number one,
24:46 – 24:47
the one,
24:47 – 24:48
the two varieties that were
24:48 – 24:50
number one, two on the first
24:50 – 24:51
year,
24:51 – 24:53
the one variety had to take out
24:53 – 24:54
on the third year,
24:54 – 24:56
while they both got taken out on
24:56 – 24:56
the third year,
24:57 – 24:58
the one variety was so bad,
24:59 – 25:01
you you could find a plant out
25:01 – 25:02
there that was the number one
25:02 – 25:02
the first year.
25:02 – 25:03
So
25:03 – 25:04
it's just kind of like a
25:04 – 25:05
racehorse.
25:05 – 25:06
And so I
25:07 – 25:08
think it's from keeping those
25:08 – 25:10
fields in longer, all those
25:10 – 25:11
disease plants are gone now.
25:11 – 25:13
Anything that was susceptible to
25:13 – 25:16
those root diseases has weeded
25:16 – 25:17
themselves out.
25:18 – 25:20
And so you're just constantly
25:21 – 25:22
making a hardier and hardier
25:22 – 25:24
variety for my area.
25:25 – 25:26
I don't think it would work that
25:26 – 25:29
great in everywhere, but for my
25:29 – 25:30
area and my disease pressure,
25:30 – 25:31
it's working.
25:32 – 25:33
Well, the same practice, the
25:33 – 25:34
same approach would work in
25:34 – 25:36
developing those local
25:36 – 25:36
adaptations.
25:37 – 25:38
Yes.
25:38 – 25:39
And that's where I think it's
25:39 – 25:41
important for people to look at
25:41 – 25:43
seed production in their area on
25:43 – 25:44
these open varieties
25:44 – 25:47
and to get a hardy
25:47 – 25:49
variety that works in that area.
25:49 – 25:51
And I think that's what we are
25:51 – 25:52
missing in
25:53 – 25:54
a lot of this seed production.
25:54 – 25:56
You know, grass is bred
25:56 – 25:58
normally in certain areas.
25:58 – 25:59
Grass seed and
25:59 – 26:01
alfalfa seed production has its
26:01 – 26:02
certain areas because it's very
26:02 – 26:03
best for those areas.
26:03 – 26:04
Well,
26:04 – 26:06
can we produce it in other
26:06 – 26:06
areas?
26:06 – 26:08
Yeah, your yields might be less,
26:08 – 26:09
but are we getting a more
26:10 – 26:12
locally adept variety that would
26:12 – 26:14
still yield well,
26:15 – 26:16
produce well,
26:16 – 26:18
and knowing that it's going to
26:18 – 26:20
be better for that environment?
26:20 – 26:21
Well, what you just said is
26:21 – 26:23
quite interesting, Brad, because
26:23 – 26:25
the reason grasses are grown in
26:25 – 26:26
a certain area
26:26 – 26:28
And the reason alfalfa seed is
26:28 – 26:29
grown in a certain area or for
26:29 – 26:30
any of these different crops,
26:30 – 26:32
they're grown in areas where
26:32 – 26:32
from
26:33 – 26:34
an environmental perspective, a
26:34 – 26:36
climate perspective, they have
26:36 – 26:37
the lowest disease
26:37 – 26:38
susceptibility possible.
26:38 – 26:39
They're very dry environments
26:39 – 26:42
that are conducive to
26:42 – 26:45
seed drying down and not getting
26:45 – 26:46
moldy, not having all kinds of
26:46 – 26:47
diseases.
26:48 – 26:49
And what you're suggesting is
26:49 – 26:50
that
26:50 – 26:51
now that's great for seed
26:51 – 26:52
production, but it might not be
26:52 – 26:54
so great for the actual value of
26:54 – 26:55
the crop once it gets planted.
26:55 – 26:56
into soil that's a thousand
26:56 – 26:57
miles away.
26:58 – 27:00
Yeah, that's that is that's my
27:00 – 27:01
theory.
27:02 – 27:04
Now, you know, maybe there's a
27:04 – 27:06
lot of haters out there for that
27:06 – 27:07
theory, but I just really I
27:07 – 27:08
would rather see seed
27:09 – 27:11
that's adept and is going to
27:11 – 27:13
produce well for a local region.
27:14 – 27:15
And that takes away my business.
27:15 – 27:17
Right. But it's for a local
27:17 – 27:18
region
27:18 – 27:19
because
27:20 – 27:21
it might work better for the
27:21 – 27:23
long term. Now in cover crop
27:23 – 27:24
production, I can see
27:24 – 27:26
maybe that's not, you know,
27:26 – 27:27
you're just on that one year
27:27 – 27:29
deal and you're in and out, but
27:29 – 27:30
you
27:30 – 27:31
look at like grasses and
27:31 – 27:32
alfalfas, the stuff that's
27:32 – 27:33
gonna, that's more expensive,
27:33 – 27:34
stays in long time.
27:35 – 27:37
Like, why aren't we focusing on
27:37 – 27:37
stuff that's,
27:38 – 27:39
you know, it's already primed
27:39 – 27:40
for that biology.
27:40 – 27:42
You're not spraying it, you
27:42 – 27:43
know,
27:44 – 27:45
kill those things.
27:45 – 27:45
And,
27:45 – 27:47
you know, it's just primed for
27:47 – 27:47
your biology.
27:49 – 27:51
It makes sense to me to focus on
27:51 – 27:52
regional seed production.
27:53 – 27:54
Well, in the case of cover
27:54 – 27:55
crops,
27:55 – 27:55
I
27:57 – 27:59
remember a story, I certainly
27:59 – 28:00
had it off recording, I think I
28:00 – 28:01
might have had it with Keith
28:01 – 28:03
Burns here on the podcast as
28:03 – 28:04
well, if I remember correctly,
28:04 – 28:05
where he
28:05 – 28:08
spoke about the speed of
28:08 – 28:10
genetic adaptation, I think in a
28:10 – 28:13
four -year environment where a
28:13 – 28:15
southern rye
28:15 – 28:17
was brought to a more northern
28:17 – 28:19
environment and in a period of
28:19 – 28:21
four years had adapted to where
28:21 – 28:22
it no longer had the spring
28:22 – 28:24
flush of growth.
28:24 – 28:26
similar to what it had had in
28:26 – 28:27
the south.
28:27 – 28:29
And I
28:30 – 28:31
can see this working in both
28:31 – 28:32
directions, where you can have
28:33 – 28:35
varieties that are more adapted
28:35 – 28:36
to southern or northern
28:36 – 28:36
latitudes,
28:37 – 28:38
and you can either get more
28:38 – 28:39
rapid growth in the fall or
28:39 – 28:41
slower growth in the spring.
28:41 – 28:42
And you can actually use that to
28:42 – 28:43
your advantage from a cover crop
28:43 – 28:44
perspective,
28:44 – 28:46
but perhaps not from an actual
28:46 – 28:47
cropping and seed production
28:47 – 28:48
harvest perspective.
28:50 – 28:50
Yeah.
28:50 – 28:51
So
28:51 – 28:53
with that thinking about you
28:53 – 28:55
saying that, and it just pops up
28:55 – 28:55
into my head,
28:56 – 28:57
this is the second year in a row
28:57 – 28:58
that we've had
28:59 – 29:01
spring oats in our cover crop
29:01 – 29:02
mix come
29:03 – 29:04
up the next spring
29:05 – 29:07
into, you know, other crops that
29:07 – 29:08
I'm trying to produce for seed.
29:11 – 29:12
So,
29:11 – 29:12
and they're not like new plants,
29:12 – 29:14
they survived and then went to
29:14 – 29:14
seed.
29:15 – 29:16
So are
29:17 – 29:18
we, I should have, I should
29:18 – 29:19
probably like try to keep that,
29:19 – 29:21
see if Am I slowly like
29:21 – 29:23
producing a winter hardy oat?
29:23 – 29:24
I don't know.
29:25 – 29:25
It's like,
29:26 – 29:27
how is this
29:27 – 29:30
slowly, you know, making a
29:30 – 29:31
winter hardy oat and maybe the
29:31 – 29:33
winter wasn't as hard, but we
29:33 – 29:34
still got down to zero,
29:35 – 29:37
but they didn't freeze out.
29:37 – 29:38
And they're in,
29:39 – 29:40
you know, I planted a new crop
29:40 – 29:41
and then they're still there.
29:41 – 29:42
They didn't, they didn't die
29:42 – 29:43
like they should have.
29:43 – 29:44
So I
29:45 – 29:47
think you can take stuff that
29:47 – 29:49
isn't supposed to do as well and
29:49 – 29:49
it can
29:50 – 29:51
adapt.
29:51 – 29:53
Is it going to be the best and
29:53 – 29:54
always work every year?
29:54 – 29:55
I don't know.
29:56 – 29:59
But I think it can get used to
29:59 – 30:00
that environment and you can
30:00 – 30:01
start
30:01 – 30:02
feeding a better and better,
30:03 – 30:03
you
30:04 – 30:06
know, hearty and heartier plant.
30:07 – 30:08
Well, one of the one of the
30:08 – 30:09
aspects that I really
30:09 – 30:12
appreciated about the rye
30:12 – 30:13
adaptation story that Keith
30:13 – 30:14
shared and the collard
30:14 – 30:16
adaptation story that you just
30:16 – 30:17
shared
30:17 – 30:19
is the speed at which it
30:19 – 30:20
happens.
30:20 – 30:21
It happens so rapidly.
30:21 – 30:22
In the case of the rye, it
30:22 – 30:24
happened in four generations.
30:24 – 30:25
In the case of collards, it
30:25 – 30:26
happened in two generations.
30:28 – 30:28
And
30:28 – 30:29
somehow,
30:30 – 30:31
I think many of us have,
30:33 – 30:35
because we no longer do it,
30:35 – 30:36
because we're no longer as
30:36 – 30:37
closely associated with seed
30:37 – 30:38
production,
30:38 – 30:39
many of us have this kind of
30:39 – 30:42
intrigue that producing seed is
30:42 – 30:44
somehow requires some special
30:44 – 30:45
effort, some special energy,
30:46 – 30:48
and that saving our own seed and
30:48 – 30:51
replanting in the future is a
30:51 – 30:52
very long payback window.
30:52 – 30:54
It's going to take years,
30:54 – 30:56
a decade or longer perhaps, in
30:56 – 30:57
order to see a crop response.
30:58 – 31:00
But that in fact is not what I'm
31:00 – 31:01
observing on many different
31:01 – 31:03
crops and environments, that the
31:03 – 31:05
changed epigenetic expression
31:05 – 31:07
actually happens surprisingly
31:07 – 31:07
rapidly.
31:09 – 31:11
Yeah, I don't, I think, as
31:11 – 31:12
humans, we like to
31:13 – 31:15
think that we're, we can trick
31:15 – 31:17
nature more than we really can.
31:18 – 31:18
It
31:19 – 31:21
all survived this long on its
31:21 – 31:22
own.
31:21 – 31:23
And I look at that, you know,
31:23 – 31:23
that collar story,
31:25 – 31:26
it got nothing.
31:26 – 31:27
And it produced
31:28 – 31:30
over 1000 pounds an acre more
31:30 – 31:32
than than when people try to
31:32 – 31:33
produce it.
31:34 – 31:36
So you missed adding that in the
31:36 – 31:37
story.
31:37 – 31:38
Yeah. So
31:38 – 31:39
where,
31:40 – 31:43
And like, how can you ever, you
31:43 – 31:44
know, recreate that?
31:44 – 31:46
I don't know, because you try
31:46 – 31:47
and we get,
31:48 – 31:49
you know, I know people raising
31:49 – 31:52
that variety, like the 1800 to
31:52 – 31:54
2000 pounds, and it did right at
31:54 – 31:56
3000 pounds clean.
31:57 – 31:58
And
31:58 – 32:00
it was like a four acre plot.
32:00 – 32:01
So I
32:02 – 32:03
mean, just insane.
32:03 – 32:04
And,
32:04 – 32:06
you know, I guess I could try to
32:06 – 32:07
raise it and see, see what I
32:07 – 32:08
could get
32:08 – 32:09
seed wise, but
32:10 – 32:11
I don't want to do that.
32:11 – 32:12
Right. So
32:12 – 32:14
What is interesting is that
32:14 – 32:17
there in the forage collard you
32:17 – 32:18
have a crop
32:19 – 32:23
that the growth cycle is adapted
32:23 – 32:24
to your rainfall pattern.
32:27 – 32:28
Why
32:29 – 32:30
are you growing irrigated
32:30 – 32:31
alfalfa again?
32:31 – 32:32
Seems to me you should be
32:32 – 32:33
growing dryland collards.
32:36 – 32:37
Yeah, if you could.
32:37 – 32:38
I
32:38 – 32:39
just don't know how I would
32:39 – 32:41
create that.
32:41 – 32:42
But yeah, maybe maybe you put
32:42 – 32:44
the seed out and it would just
32:44 – 32:46
go. And you know that that takes
32:46 – 32:48
another level of guts, I guess.
32:51 – 32:52
Well, it takes a lower
32:52 – 32:53
opportunity cost, probably.
32:54 – 32:55
Yeah. Yeah.
32:55 – 32:56
And maybe I could find some land
32:56 – 32:57
and try it on it.
32:59 – 33:00
But yeah, that's that that was
33:00 – 33:01
our experience.
33:02 – 33:03
But what's interesting to me,
33:03 – 33:04
what you're describing,
33:04 – 33:05
I
33:06 – 33:07
don't have a ton of experience
33:07 – 33:08
growing either collards or
33:08 – 33:10
turnips, but they're both winter
33:11 – 33:13
winter annuals, and wouldn't the
33:13 – 33:15
rainfall pattern that matches to
33:15 – 33:16
the collards also be similar to
33:16 – 33:18
the turnips? Will the turnips
33:18 – 33:19
have a higher water requirement
33:19 – 33:20
in the spring when they're
33:20 – 33:21
bulbing?
33:22 – 33:23
Yeah, they have a higher water
33:23 – 33:25
requirement, and then they just
33:25 – 33:25
need a little bit.
33:27 – 33:29
That's why I was so surprised at
33:29 – 33:31
the yield and the health of
33:31 – 33:31
those
33:31 – 33:33
collards getting no
33:33 – 33:36
rain, really. I mean, there was
33:36 – 33:37
a few scattered showers in that
33:38 – 33:40
May to end of June when
33:41 – 33:42
they were ready.
33:44 – 33:46
from what I could see is they
33:46 – 33:47
got,
33:47 – 33:49
they seeded down in like
33:50 – 33:52
August time with rains, because
33:52 – 33:53
the seed fell out.
33:53 – 33:55
And then we, we got some timely
33:55 – 33:56
August rains when they came back
33:56 – 33:58
up again, watching them.
33:58 – 34:00
And so they, they were planted
34:00 – 34:02
earlier than we typically seed
34:02 – 34:02
them.
34:03 – 34:06
And their, their roots were
34:07 – 34:08
so big
34:09 – 34:09
going into,
34:10 – 34:12
you know, coming into the
34:12 – 34:12
summer,
34:12 – 34:14
because I think because they
34:14 – 34:14
seeded earlier,
34:15 – 34:16
and that's something that,
34:16 – 34:17
You know, we probably ought to
34:17 – 34:19
try now turnips, you can't do
34:19 – 34:20
that per se, because that bowl
34:20 – 34:21
will get too big, and then it'll
34:21 – 34:22
pop in the
34:22 – 34:24
in the wintertime.
34:25 – 34:26
And then you have problems with
34:26 – 34:27
that.
34:27 – 34:28
But where collard is more of a
34:28 – 34:29
is that root,
34:31 – 34:32
maybe it's just getting an
34:32 – 34:34
earlier planting timing.
34:34 – 34:37
and then it can get that deeper
34:37 – 34:40
taproot going where you don't
34:40 – 34:41
have to
34:41 – 34:42
irrigate it.
34:43 – 34:44
That was one of the key concepts
34:44 – 34:45
of the system of root
34:45 – 34:48
intensification and the various
34:48 – 34:50
methods and the pioneering work
34:50 – 34:51
that has been done on growing
34:52 – 34:54
larger yields of small grains is
34:54 – 34:55
planting them
34:55 – 34:56
quite a bit earlier where
34:56 – 34:57
they're now
34:57 – 34:58
Well, depending on which
34:58 – 34:59
latitude and region, of course,
35:00 – 35:00
there's a lot of variability,
35:00 – 35:02
but there's experimentation with
35:02 – 35:03
planting them as early as mid
35:03 – 35:04
-July to develop this
35:05 – 35:07
very robust root system and a
35:07 – 35:09
large crown that just emerges
35:09 – 35:10
from spring dormancy and is off
35:10 – 35:11
to the races.
35:12 – 35:14
And probably at a lighter
35:14 – 35:15
planting rate?
35:16 – 35:17
Yes.
35:17 – 35:18
Yes. A much lighter planting
35:18 – 35:20
rate. I've planted early, a
35:20 – 35:21
couple of years ago, I planted
35:21 – 35:22
early on
35:22 – 35:24
some winter wheat and I
35:25 – 35:26
actually
35:26 – 35:28
it, it died. A lot of it lodged
35:28 – 35:30
and died because it got so thick
35:30 – 35:31
in the spring,
35:32 – 35:34
then it couldn't, it just was
35:34 – 35:35
just too thick.
35:35 – 35:36
And so that's what my thought
35:36 – 35:37
was after that experience was
35:37 – 35:39
like, man, if we planted thinner
35:39 – 35:41
early like that,
35:42 – 35:42
what would it do?
35:44 – 35:45
I remember, I think, uh,
35:46 – 35:47
this is just me stretching my
35:47 – 35:48
memory. This might've been from
35:48 – 35:49
the Mark Bonfils method.
35:49 – 35:50
It might've been from system of
35:50 – 35:51
root intensification.
35:51 – 35:52
And I,
35:53 – 35:54
I'm even hesitant to mention, I
35:54 – 35:55
should go back and dig it up
35:55 – 35:56
again.
35:56 – 35:57
But for some reason, I'm
35:57 – 35:58
thinking that when they were
35:58 – 35:59
planting in mid -July,
35:59 – 36:01
and this was on winter wheat,
36:01 – 36:03
they were planting it at like 15
36:03 – 36:04
,000 to 18 ,000 population,
36:05 – 36:06
which is
36:06 – 36:09
row spacing was 18
36:10 – 36:12
inches and spacing in the row at
36:12 – 36:13
12 inches, if I recall
36:13 – 36:14
correctly. It's like they're
36:14 – 36:16
planting it almost closer to a
36:16 – 36:17
corn crop than we commonly do a
36:17 – 36:18
small grain.
36:18 – 36:19
That's crazy.
36:21 – 36:22
Yeah, that is a
36:23 – 36:24
corn crop spacing.
36:24 – 36:25
Yeah.
36:24 – 36:26
And like we planted it probably
36:27 – 36:28
125 pounds per acre.
36:29 – 36:30
you know, so yeah, I don't know
36:30 – 36:32
that's all you know, lots of
36:32 – 36:32
seeds
36:32 – 36:34
So yeah,
36:34 – 36:36
I could I could see that because
36:36 – 36:36
then you get I
36:37 – 36:38
mean that thing when we did it
36:38 – 36:41
so early we plant it and We were
36:41 – 36:42
there planting a cover crop.
36:43 – 36:44
So we're like it was just a
36:44 – 36:45
corners of these pivots I was
36:45 – 36:46
like, ah, let's just
36:46 – 36:47
get the corners planted while
36:47 – 36:48
we're there with the equipment
36:48 – 36:49
and
36:49 – 36:50
then it got so thick
36:51 – 36:52
There was no weeds that was
36:52 – 36:54
definitely it was never had to
36:54 – 36:54
use a herbicide,
36:55 – 36:57
but it was so thick it just
36:57 – 36:58
ended up
36:59 – 37:00
just melt away.
37:03 – 37:04
All right. So you
37:05 – 37:06
had this awesome collar story
37:06 – 37:08
and you also almost missed
37:08 – 37:09
telling us the best part.
37:09 – 37:10
And so now I'm going to ask you
37:10 – 37:12
the question of what, what other
37:12 – 37:13
great, uh,
37:13 – 37:15
observations or experiences have
37:15 – 37:17
you had that surprised you or
37:17 – 37:17
intrigued you?
37:24 – 37:26
Nothing's coming to the top of
37:26 – 37:27
my head. Let me think on that
37:27 – 37:28
as, as we talk,
37:29 – 37:30
I'm sure there's, there's other
37:30 – 37:32
things that'll pop up.
37:33 – 37:34
The color story is the one
37:34 – 37:36
that's been most impressive to
37:36 – 37:37
me by far.
37:38 – 37:39
Yeah, that's a great story.
37:39 – 37:40
It's a great, it's a great
37:40 – 37:41
example for us to learn from.
37:42 – 37:44
Right. And a great example, I
37:44 – 37:45
think a great example of
37:45 – 37:46
that.
37:46 – 37:47
We really still don't know that
37:47 – 37:49
much and we still have a lot to
37:49 – 37:50
learn to try to.
37:52 – 37:52
You
37:53 – 37:54
know what? I think a major part
37:54 – 37:55
of the reason is why we don't
37:55 – 37:56
know that much.
37:56 – 37:58
It's because so much of what we
37:58 – 37:59
think we know is false.
38:01 – 38:02
Yeah.
38:02 – 38:03
There's actually a whole lot of
38:03 – 38:05
things that if we think if we
38:05 – 38:07
had less information or
38:07 – 38:09
not listen, if we had less
38:09 – 38:11
training, less knowledge and we
38:11 – 38:12
just paid more attention and we
38:12 – 38:14
were more observant in some way,
38:14 – 38:14
we would be better off.
38:16 – 38:17
Yeah. I really like when Gabe
38:17 – 38:18
Brown
38:18 – 38:19
says,
38:19 – 38:20
you know, we got to change the
38:20 – 38:21
way we see things
38:22 – 38:25
because our mind does get in the
38:25 – 38:27
way. of this is what we've
38:27 – 38:28
always done and so this is
38:28 – 38:29
what's right.
38:30 – 38:31
And in opening our mind to
38:32 – 38:34
learning by observation and
38:34 – 38:36
seeing it different,
38:37 – 38:38
I think that's really key in
38:38 – 38:39
agriculture,
38:39 – 38:40
no matter what agriculture
38:40 – 38:42
you're in, is keeping an open
38:42 – 38:43
mind
38:43 – 38:45
and going out and spending time
38:45 – 38:47
to see it different
38:47 – 38:49
and challenging,
38:50 – 38:51
like, you know, like you always
38:51 – 38:53
say, challenge the status quo,
38:54 – 38:54
but challenging
38:55 – 38:58
what you believe is right.
38:59 – 39:00
And,
39:00 – 39:01
you know,
39:02 – 39:04
I really feel like we can learn
39:04 – 39:05
so much more if we just
39:06 – 39:08
take the time to go and see.
39:11 – 39:13
I think one of the earliest
39:13 – 39:15
versions of that quote that I
39:15 – 39:17
heard was from Kerry Reams back
39:17 – 39:18
in the 1970s. And no, I didn't
39:18 – 39:20
hear Kerry say that in the 70s,
39:20 – 39:21
but it was written down by many
39:21 – 39:22
of his students.
39:22 – 39:24
His his mantra that he kept
39:24 – 39:25
repeating over and over was,
39:26 – 39:27
see what you look at.
39:28 – 39:31
And the same the same essence in
39:31 – 39:32
that
39:32 – 39:34
we look at things, but we don't
39:34 – 39:35
connect the dots.
39:35 – 39:37
And so I think seeing is
39:39 – 39:41
it's observing carefully, but
39:41 – 39:42
also,
39:43 – 39:45
um, then thinking about our
39:45 – 39:46
observations and questioning our
39:46 – 39:49
observations and, and trying to
39:49 – 39:50
correlate them to other pieces
39:50 – 39:51
of information, understanding
39:51 – 39:52
what's really happening, going
39:52 – 39:54
on. So observation is,
39:55 – 39:57
is partially visual, but it's
39:57 – 40:00
also partially then the, the
40:00 – 40:01
intellectual exercise of
40:01 – 40:02
thinking
40:02 – 40:04
and just questioning what
40:04 – 40:05
exactly it is that we're
40:05 – 40:06
observing and how it connects.
40:07 – 40:08
Yeah, and I really like,
40:09 – 40:10
because
40:10 – 40:12
maybe it's my personality, but I
40:12 – 40:14
can do that somewhat and get
40:15 – 40:16
a little bit of that
40:16 – 40:17
observation.
40:18 – 40:18
But when I
40:19 – 40:22
really feel like I gain more is
40:22 – 40:25
when multiple people go and
40:25 – 40:27
observe something and then we
40:27 – 40:28
can have a discussion about it.
40:30 – 40:32
It's that you feed on each other
40:32 – 40:34
and then somebody says something
40:34 – 40:36
and it really gets your brain
40:36 – 40:37
thinking.
40:37 – 40:39
With my brothers, we can have
40:39 – 40:41
these conversations and then
40:41 – 40:42
it's like, oh,
40:42 – 40:44
you just said something and I
40:44 – 40:46
saw that there and then you can
40:46 – 40:46
really build on it.
40:47 – 40:47
I think
40:48 – 40:49
As humans, we need that
40:49 – 40:49
community.
40:50 – 40:52
And that's why I like these
40:52 – 40:54
podcasts, because it stirs
40:54 – 40:56
thought. And then you can relate
40:56 – 40:57
it back to things that you
40:57 – 40:58
observed in the field.
40:59 – 41:00
And then you can really start
41:00 – 41:00
building
41:00 – 41:03
ways to change or try new
41:03 – 41:04
things.
41:04 – 41:06
But it's really important to
41:06 – 41:08
try new things, too.
41:08 – 41:10
I think one thing my dad
41:10 – 41:12
instilled in us, a saying he
41:12 – 41:12
always had was,
41:13 – 41:14
seed doesn't grow in a bag.
41:15 – 41:16
Go try something different.
41:17 – 41:18
Try something new.
41:18 – 41:20
And so we need to observe and
41:20 – 41:21
then we need to go make change
41:21 – 41:23
and try it and try to fail.
41:23 – 41:24
Every year you should try to
41:24 – 41:25
fail at something.
41:30 – 41:31
Well, without trying to fail,
41:31 – 41:32
without attempting to make
41:32 – 41:33
mistakes, you know,
41:34 – 41:35
I've had this conversation,
41:36 – 41:38
maybe not on the podcast.
41:38 – 41:39
I
41:38 – 41:40
struggle to remember sometimes
41:40 – 41:40
where I've had these
41:40 – 41:41
discussions. But
41:42 – 41:43
when
41:43 – 41:44
we are when
41:45 – 41:47
we are children, we celebrate
41:47 – 41:49
our children making mistakes up
41:49 – 41:50
to a certain age.
41:51 – 41:52
You fall off a bike.
41:52 – 41:53
Hey,
41:53 – 41:54
I was
41:54 – 41:56
we celebrate them.
41:56 – 41:57
We encourage them.
41:58 – 42:00
When is there learning to walk
42:00 – 42:01
as learning to ride a bike is
42:01 – 42:03
there learning to write whatever
42:03 – 42:04
it is through up to a certain
42:04 – 42:06
age is there learning there
42:06 – 42:08
constantly encouraged through
42:08 – 42:10
mistakes every
42:10 – 42:12
time you fall off you get back
42:12 – 42:13
on you start over again
42:13 – 42:15
and then when you're ready.
42:15 – 42:16
adulthood,
42:16 – 42:17
all of a sudden perfection is
42:17 – 42:18
expected.
42:18 – 42:20
And now when you make a mistake,
42:20 – 42:22
you get discouraged so
42:22 – 42:22
frequently.
42:23 – 42:24
Like, that was stupid.
42:25 – 42:26
Why did you do that?
42:26 – 42:28
So there's this complete flip in
42:28 – 42:30
how we think about making
42:30 – 42:31
mistakes as
42:31 – 42:32
you approach adulthood.
42:33 – 42:35
And if we kept more of
42:35 – 42:37
that childhood encouragement,
42:38 – 42:39
and encouraged each other to
42:39 – 42:40
make mistakes, to make more
42:40 – 42:42
mistakes, to make them faster.
42:42 – 42:43
Huh, you fell off that bike.
42:43 – 42:44
Bet that was a rough landing.
42:44 – 42:45
Let's get back on and try it
42:45 – 42:46
again.
42:46 – 42:47
Let's try something different.
42:47 – 42:48
If we had more of that
42:48 – 42:49
encouraging perspectives
42:50 – 42:52
in our ventures that we pursue
42:52 – 42:54
as adults, think of how the
42:54 – 42:55
world might be a different place
42:55 – 42:56
from both a feeling perspective
42:56 – 42:58
and a productivity perspective.
42:59 – 43:00
Oh, I think I think you're spot
43:00 – 43:01
on.
43:01 – 43:02
You know, it's interesting that
43:02 – 43:05
I have six kids and I'm training
43:05 – 43:06
my
43:07 – 43:07
daughter,
43:07 – 43:09
so my second oldest, to drive.
43:11 – 43:12
She's taking driver's ed, but
43:12 – 43:16
I bought her a little VW bug,
43:16 – 43:17
and it's a manual.
43:17 – 43:18
And so she's all nervous about
43:18 – 43:19
it. So I was teaching her how to
43:19 – 43:21
drive it last night.
43:21 – 43:22
And she's
43:23 – 43:24
definitely making mistakes.
43:25 – 43:25
And
43:25 – 43:27
she's getting all nervous.
43:27 – 43:28
And I'm like, no, you're great.
43:28 – 43:29
Everything's fine.
43:29 – 43:31
And really putting some use on
43:31 – 43:32
the vehicle.
43:33 – 43:36
And I'm totally happy about it,
43:36 – 43:37
giving her lots of grace.
43:38 – 43:39
and patience.
43:40 – 43:41
And then, like you said, in
43:41 – 43:42
adults, like if an adult was to
43:42 – 43:44
do that, you'd be like, what are
43:44 – 43:44
you doing?
43:45 – 43:46
And, you
43:47 – 43:48
know, I think the
43:49 – 43:50
world would be a completely
43:50 – 43:50
different
43:51 – 43:52
place.
43:52 – 43:53
And with my faith,
43:54 – 43:55
I feel like
43:56 – 43:57
our father in heaven
43:57 – 43:59
views us the way we view our
43:59 – 44:00
children.
44:01 – 44:02
Oh, I mean, he's just being
44:02 – 44:03
silly, you know.
44:04 – 44:05
And there's a lot of grace
44:05 – 44:06
involved,
44:06 – 44:07
where as
44:07 – 44:09
adults, we are so critical on
44:09 – 44:10
each other.
44:10 – 44:11
We're critical on the next
44:11 – 44:13
farmer across the road,
44:14 – 44:15
when in reality, they just
44:15 – 44:17
haven't visualized and saw it
44:17 – 44:18
different.
44:19 – 44:20
But we're so critical on
44:21 – 44:22
the way their crops look, maybe
44:22 – 44:24
the way their borders look.
44:25 – 44:26
And
44:26 – 44:27
at the end of the day,
44:28 – 44:29
they're still learning and it
44:29 – 44:30
doesn't matter.
44:30 – 44:32
We need to have more grace for
44:32 – 44:33
people.
44:34 – 44:35
Thank you, Brad.
44:35 – 44:36
That was very well said.
44:39 – 44:40
We need to have more grace for
44:40 – 44:41
people,
44:41 – 44:41
including ourselves.
44:42 – 44:44
Oh, and especially ourselves.
44:44 – 44:46
You look at suicide rates
44:46 – 44:48
amongst agriculture industry.
44:49 – 44:50
We need to have more grace.
44:50 – 44:52
And, you know, financial issues
44:52 – 44:53
definitely don't help that.
44:53 – 44:54
But
44:55 – 44:56
we all need to help each other a
44:56 – 44:57
little more.
44:59 – 45:00
You know, I find it interesting
45:00 – 45:01
that I
45:05 – 45:06
know I was about to frame this
45:06 – 45:08
in the context of of other
45:08 – 45:09
cultures, but I don't don't
45:09 – 45:11
really have enough perspective
45:11 – 45:12
to have an informed opinion
45:12 – 45:13
there.
45:12 – 45:13
But
45:14 – 45:15
the opposite of grace
45:17 – 45:20
is having judgment and being
45:20 – 45:21
judgmental about each other.
45:22 – 45:24
and oh my goodness does it seem
45:24 – 45:25
we ever excel on that.
45:27 – 45:28
Just look at social media and
45:29 – 45:32
that tells you where a people a
45:32 – 45:33
nation or people are
45:34 – 45:36
and it's that the first thing is
45:36 – 45:37
we see we
45:38 – 45:40
see the bad in everyone and if
45:40 – 45:41
we could change that if we could
45:42 – 45:44
you know I saw a little short
45:44 – 45:46
video and it was talking about
45:46 – 45:47
this of if
45:47 – 45:48
you know somebody cuts you off
45:48 – 45:50
in traffic and the first thought
45:50 – 45:52
you had was oh they're
45:52 – 45:54
you know, they probably have an
45:54 – 45:55
emergency and they've got to get
45:55 – 45:57
there before me and it's good
45:57 – 45:58
for them to do that versus,
45:59 – 46:00
oh my word, what a jerk.
46:01 – 46:02
You know,
46:03 – 46:04
can we change the way we see?
46:04 – 46:06
people and see their actions
46:06 – 46:07
because we don't know what's
46:07 – 46:09
happening in their life.
46:09 – 46:10
We don't know why,
46:10 – 46:12
you know, a certain farmer has
46:12 – 46:13
dirty borders or,
46:14 – 46:15
you know, their crop looks the
46:15 – 46:16
way they are. Maybe they're just
46:16 – 46:17
going through a tough time and
46:17 – 46:18
maybe we should go get to,
46:19 – 46:20
you know, have conversations
46:20 – 46:21
with them and,
46:21 – 46:23
you know, and just with people.
46:24 – 46:25
How do we treat people?
46:25 – 46:27
A little kinder, just offer that
46:27 – 46:29
grace because we've been given a
46:29 – 46:30
lot of grace, right?
46:31 – 46:31
Everyone, you know,
46:32 – 46:33
when we screw up,
46:34 – 46:35
There's a lot of grace given to
46:35 – 46:36
us. Why aren't we giving it out?
46:42 – 46:42
Thank you, Brad.
46:43 – 46:44
That was such a good
46:44 – 46:45
conversation.
46:47 – 46:50
I want to be considered of the
46:50 – 46:51
many people who I'm sure have
46:51 – 46:52
conversations about your
46:52 – 46:54
livestock operation or have
46:54 – 46:55
questions about your livestock
46:55 – 46:56
operation.
46:57 – 46:58
You're growing a number of
46:58 – 46:59
different things.
47:00 – 47:01
Are you, I think if I understood
47:01 – 47:03
correctly, you market all of
47:03 – 47:04
those directly to consumers.
47:05 – 47:06
Do you also do all of your own
47:06 – 47:07
processing? What does that,
47:07 – 47:08
what's the scope and the size of
47:08 – 47:10
that operation look like?
47:11 – 47:13
Yeah, currently, we are
47:13 – 47:15
raising all the animals
47:15 – 47:16
ourselves.
47:16 – 47:18
We do not process them
47:18 – 47:19
ourselves. We have a USDA
47:19 – 47:20
processor
47:20 – 47:23
for all livestock.
47:24 – 47:25
We don't do anything here at the
47:25 – 47:26
farm.
47:27 – 47:28
I
47:27 – 47:29
have enough going on.
47:30 – 47:32
The one thing, I don't need
47:32 – 47:32
another job.
47:33 – 47:34
And I don't need to manage
47:34 – 47:36
anything more. And as long as
47:36 – 47:37
there's somebody in the
47:37 – 47:38
community that's willing to do
47:38 – 47:40
that job, and I can pay them and
47:40 – 47:44
help build them up as a
47:44 – 47:45
business.
47:45 – 47:46
I'm ready to help them with
47:46 – 47:47
that.
47:48 – 47:49
So we do have other people J bar
47:49 – 47:52
poultry does our poultry and
47:52 – 47:53
Northwest premium does all of
47:53 – 47:54
our
47:54 – 47:57
pork and beef.
47:57 – 47:59
So they do a great job and we're
47:59 – 48:01
happy that they're in business
48:01 – 48:03
and able to do that for us.
48:03 – 48:05
So yes, all of it's direct to
48:05 – 48:06
consumer.
48:06 – 48:08
99 .5
48:09 – 48:11
% of our sales is all right here
48:11 – 48:12
in what we call the Treasure
48:12 – 48:13
Valley, so the
48:14 – 48:15
greater Boise area.
48:16 – 48:18
We're about 40, 45 minutes from
48:18 – 48:19
Boise.
48:19 – 48:21
And so that Treasure Valley is
48:21 – 48:23
where all of this meat is
48:23 – 48:26
produced and is sold into.
48:26 – 48:27
We sell online.
48:29 – 48:30
do drops and home delivery
48:30 – 48:32
through that method.
48:32 – 48:33
We do a little bit of
48:33 – 48:34
restaurant, not a whole lot.
48:34 – 48:36
Most like eggs go more to the
48:36 – 48:38
restaurant than than meat.
48:38 – 48:39
We do a little bit of meat
48:39 – 48:40
sales.
48:40 – 48:41
And then we have an on farm
48:41 – 48:44
store where about a third of
48:44 – 48:45
that
48:44 – 48:46
is all sold through.
48:46 – 48:47
And that
48:47 – 48:49
has been the one thing that has
48:49 – 48:51
surprised me about our
48:51 – 48:53
community. And I would I would
48:53 – 48:54
hope that's the same in other
48:54 – 48:56
communities is how far people
48:56 – 48:59
are willing to drive to come to
48:59 – 49:00
our farm store
49:00 – 49:01
and shop.
49:02 – 49:04
We did a little on paper study.
49:05 – 49:06
I had my mom, she was working
49:06 – 49:07
the store and I had her write
49:07 – 49:09
down or ask and then write down
49:09 – 49:11
the zip code for everyone that
49:11 – 49:12
was shopping in the store those
49:12 – 49:13
days.
49:14 – 49:15
And what we found was the
49:15 – 49:17
average travel distance was
49:17 – 49:18
around 40 minutes to get to our
49:18 – 49:19
store.
49:20 – 49:21
And
49:21 – 49:23
it was a nice busy day, a really
49:23 – 49:24
good day.
49:25 – 49:27
And it just blew my mind how
49:27 – 49:29
far people are willing to travel
49:29 – 49:30
for high quality
49:31 – 49:32
protein.
49:32 – 49:33
And they're concerned.
49:34 – 49:35
about their health and they're
49:35 – 49:36
also concerned about
49:36 – 49:39
our well -being and the story
49:39 – 49:41
that we're telling with soil
49:41 – 49:42
health and animal health.
49:44 – 49:45
Out of curiosity,
49:45 – 49:47
when you had that average 40
49:48 – 49:50
mile travel distance, what was
49:50 – 49:51
the average sale size?
49:53 – 49:55
Our basket size in that store is
49:55 – 49:58
just below $80 a basket size.
49:59 – 50:01
So some people are traveling
50:01 – 50:02
that far for just a few dozen
50:02 – 50:03
eggs.
50:03 – 50:04
And then we have some people
50:04 – 50:05
that come and shop and spend
50:05 – 50:06
hundreds and hundreds of
50:06 – 50:08
dollars. And so it's a real
50:08 – 50:09
variance.
50:09 – 50:10
But
50:09 – 50:11
when we look at basket size, it
50:12 – 50:13
fluctuates. But anywhere from
50:13 – 50:16
that like $75 to $90 is our kind
50:16 – 50:19
of average daily basket size.
50:23 – 50:25
All right, I have about a dozen
50:25 – 50:26
questions.
50:27 – 50:29
But the context of what I'm so
50:29 – 50:30
intrigued about what you're
50:30 – 50:31
describing,
50:32 – 50:32
Brad, is that
50:35 – 50:38
there are many beef producers in
50:38 – 50:39
particular,
50:39 – 50:40
but other livestock producers as
50:40 – 50:41
well, who
50:42 – 50:44
are making an effort to sell
50:44 – 50:45
direct to consumer, to
50:45 – 50:48
decommoditize themselves and to
50:48 – 50:50
capture more of that retail
50:50 – 50:50
dollar.
50:50 – 50:52
They're prioritizing producing a
50:52 – 50:53
high quality product.
50:53 – 50:54
They're selling online.
50:55 – 50:56
and their shipping product all
50:56 – 50:57
over the country.
50:57 – 50:59
And very little is actually
50:59 – 50:59
being sold
51:00 – 51:02
in their region.
51:03 – 51:04
And in
51:05 – 51:07
some regions where you have very
51:07 – 51:09
low population density out on
51:09 – 51:10
the plains, that's
51:10 – 51:12
understandable to a degree.
51:13 – 51:15
But I'd like to understand what
51:15 – 51:17
is it that you've done?
51:17 – 51:18
How have you approached it
51:18 – 51:21
differently to have such a large
51:21 – 51:22
concentration in your immediate
51:22 – 51:23
local region?
51:26 – 51:27
So there's
51:28 – 51:29
a few things.
51:29 – 51:31
Shipping is not the easiest.
51:32 – 51:35
In our local area, dry ice is a
51:35 – 51:37
big component of shipping frozen
51:37 – 51:38
product,
51:39 – 51:39
and
51:39 – 51:41
dry ice is really expensive in
51:41 – 51:43
our area. If you were to go buy
51:43 – 51:46
dry ice in bulk right now, it's
51:46 – 51:48
around $3 .30 a pound in the
51:48 – 51:49
Treasure Valley.
51:50 – 51:51
When you need eight to 10 pounds
51:51 – 51:52
for a box,
51:53 – 51:55
you're at a disadvantage to
51:56 – 51:57
people on the East Coast or
51:57 – 51:59
other places, anywhere close
51:59 – 52:01
to the ocean that's in that 25
52:01 – 52:04
cents to 75 cent range.
52:05 – 52:06
It
52:06 – 52:07
was just always more expensive
52:07 – 52:08
and more difficult for us to
52:08 – 52:09
look at shipping,
52:10 – 52:12
which is the faster way
52:13 – 52:14
to build that business.
52:16 – 52:17
offer to everyone and ship it
52:17 – 52:19
out and really get that going.
52:19 – 52:20
So we always,
52:21 – 52:22
and maybe we weren't,
52:24 – 52:26
maybe we didn't see things well
52:26 – 52:27
enough to be able to find
52:27 – 52:28
cheaper ways of doing it,
52:29 – 52:31
but it just, maybe it kept our
52:31 – 52:32
mind closed off.
52:32 – 52:34
And so we just focused on what
52:34 – 52:36
we could control with our local
52:36 – 52:37
area.
52:37 – 52:38
And it was also a family goal.
52:39 – 52:39
When we
52:39 – 52:41
did holistic management training
52:41 – 52:42
as a family,
52:43 – 52:45
one of the main priorities was
52:45 – 52:47
providing a nutrient dense
52:47 – 52:48
protein
52:48 – 52:50
for our local economy
52:50 – 52:53
and in our local region.
52:54 – 52:56
So we just doubled down on that.
52:56 – 52:58
We did the main local farmer's
52:58 – 52:59
market so we could
53:00 – 53:01
find those customers.
53:01 – 53:03
We told our story online.
53:04 – 53:06
We grabbed as many emails as we
53:06 – 53:07
could everywhere we went.
53:08 – 53:09
And my sister -in -law, Maria,
53:10 – 53:11
tells a great story,
53:11 – 53:13
does her weekly emails.
53:13 – 53:14
She was very diligent about
53:14 – 53:15
that.
53:15 – 53:16
And we
53:16 – 53:17
also
53:17 – 53:18
had the website built.
53:19 – 53:20
And so what when I mentioned the
53:20 – 53:21
website is because
53:22 – 53:24
pre COVID, when we were at the
53:24 – 53:25
farmer's market,
53:26 – 53:28
very few of those those members
53:28 – 53:29
there had
53:29 – 53:30
websites you could shop on.
53:32 – 53:34
So we started in 2015, selling
53:34 – 53:36
protein 2018, we were starting
53:36 – 53:37
to kind of ramp it up
53:38 – 53:40
pre COVID. I actually had a big
53:40 – 53:41
problem. I had
53:41 – 53:43
about 30 head of steers that
53:43 – 53:44
were ready to butcher.
53:45 – 53:46
no buyer.
53:47 – 53:48
I raised too much for our
53:48 – 53:49
market.
53:49 – 53:50
There was no one out there
53:50 – 53:51
willing to buy.
53:51 – 53:53
I couldn't find them at the
53:53 – 53:53
time.
53:54 – 53:55
And then COVID hit.
53:56 – 53:57
And
53:57 – 53:59
I had all this beef ready.
53:59 – 54:01
We called and luckily got some
54:01 – 54:02
spots
54:02 – 54:03
locked up.
54:04 – 54:06
And within just weeks, all of
54:06 – 54:08
that meat was butchered
54:08 – 54:11
and sold. And it was a huge
54:11 – 54:12
blessing.
54:11 – 54:12
Now,
54:13 – 54:15
COVID wasn't a huge blessing
54:15 – 54:18
in a lot of ways, but it was it
54:18 – 54:20
was a big blessing on getting
54:20 – 54:22
our product moved and sold.
54:22 – 54:23
And we
54:24 – 54:25
had a website that you could buy
54:25 – 54:26
on.
54:26 – 54:27
And so when our farmers markets
54:27 – 54:28
closed,
54:28 – 54:30
people turned in in the
54:30 – 54:32
community turned to who they
54:32 – 54:33
could get it from.
54:33 – 54:34
And they could get it from us
54:34 – 54:35
because we had the website,
54:36 – 54:38
we could meet them at a location
54:38 – 54:40
and drop it to them in the way
54:40 – 54:41
that was safest for them.
54:42 – 54:43
And we were able to
54:44 – 54:45
We, we over doubled our business
54:45 – 54:46
that year.
54:46 – 54:48
And that was just a springboard
54:49 – 54:51
for my business to grow.
54:52 – 54:53
And, and
54:53 – 54:54
from that point on, we've been
54:54 – 54:57
growing 25%, 30 % a year.
55:02 – 55:02
And your,
55:03 – 55:05
your sales base you described is
55:05 – 55:06
still in the local region.
55:07 – 55:07
What does the,
55:08 – 55:10
what, what does your mix of
55:11 – 55:12
sales look like?
55:12 – 55:13
What are the various products
55:13 – 55:14
that you're producing?
55:14 – 55:15
Where do you, where are you
55:15 – 55:16
finding the strongest demand?
55:18 – 55:19
Beef is the strongest demand.
55:20 – 55:22
And it's kind of crazy, because
55:22 – 55:23
when we started,
55:23 – 55:25
there's so much beef out there.
55:25 – 55:27
There's a lot of great beef
55:27 – 55:28
producers in our area.
55:28 – 55:31
And so we looked at pork and
55:31 – 55:33
chicken as, hey, if we're going
55:33 – 55:34
to be different, let's, let's be
55:34 – 55:35
really good at pork and chicken.
55:36 – 55:38
And then our customers were
55:38 – 55:39
asking for beef, why don't you
55:39 – 55:41
guys do beef? So we started
55:41 – 55:42
doing beef.
55:43 – 55:44
And ever since COVID,
55:45 – 55:46
beef has just,
55:46 – 55:48
our beef sales have just went
55:48 – 55:49
just through the roof.
55:49 – 55:50
And so it
55:51 – 55:52
is definitely our number one
55:52 – 55:53
seller at the moment.
55:54 – 55:56
Every time we do a pork sale, we
55:56 – 55:57
sell more beef.
55:57 – 55:59
And I don't know why people are
55:59 – 55:59
so,
56:00 – 56:01
as the price continues to go up
56:01 – 56:03
and up and beef prices are
56:03 – 56:04
insane right now,
56:05 – 56:06
but people
56:07 – 56:08
It's like a scarcity thing.
56:08 – 56:10
They want to buy more beef
56:10 – 56:11
because it's more expensive.
56:11 – 56:12
I don't know why.
56:12 – 56:14
Pork is half or less than half
56:14 – 56:16
and they don't buy more pork.
56:17 – 56:18
And I know there's some some
56:18 – 56:20
religious issues there and some
56:20 – 56:23
some diet issues with pork.
56:24 – 56:25
But still, for those that could
56:25 – 56:26
eat it, why don't they eat more
56:26 – 56:27
of it? It's saving them money
56:27 – 56:29
and it tastes really good.
56:29 – 56:30
But
56:30 – 56:32
beef continues to shine.
56:33 – 56:35
Chicken always grows as much as
56:35 – 56:36
we could produce.
56:36 – 56:37
It's just amazing.
56:37 – 56:38
you know, very labor intensive
56:38 – 56:40
the way we do it on pasture, but
56:41 – 56:42
it's kind of crazy.
56:46 – 56:46
That's an interesting
56:46 – 56:47
observation, Brad.
56:47 – 56:48
You know,
56:48 – 56:49
I wonder,
56:51 – 56:52
again, I'm lacking context here
56:52 – 56:54
to have an informed perspective,
56:55 – 56:55
but
56:55 – 56:57
we have here in our local
56:57 – 56:59
region, we have a local butcher
56:59 – 57:00
shop called Heritage Meats,
57:02 – 57:03
and they
57:04 – 57:06
started from nothing half a
57:06 – 57:07
dozen years ago.
57:08 – 57:09
COVID also benefited them a
57:09 – 57:10
great deal,
57:10 – 57:12
but they are
57:12 – 57:14
moving everyone's cheese
57:15 – 57:16
because of quality.
57:17 – 57:18
And
57:18 – 57:20
There is nothing that
57:21 – 57:22
they're buying.
57:23 – 57:25
I'm using this term loosely.
57:25 – 57:26
They're buying commodity beef.
57:26 – 57:27
They're buying beef at the sale
57:27 – 57:28
barn,
57:28 – 57:31
but they just they buy well
57:32 – 57:34
and they butcher well and they
57:34 – 57:35
optimize for quality.
57:36 – 57:37
And they have a reputation of
57:37 – 57:39
having the highest quality meat
57:39 – 57:39
in the region.
57:41 – 57:42
And of course, their
57:42 – 57:43
competition, I mean,
57:44 – 57:45
the funny part about this story
57:45 – 57:47
is that they are literally 300
57:47 – 57:48
yards from
57:48 – 57:52
the closest Walmart super
57:52 – 57:52
center.
57:53 – 57:54
And there are other grocery
57:54 – 57:56
store chains, major chains, all
57:56 – 57:57
within a couple of miles.
57:58 – 57:58
They're right in the dead center
57:58 – 58:01
of the largest local
58:02 – 58:03
town here.
58:05 – 58:07
They are just going to town,
58:08 – 58:11
literally and figuratively,
58:11 – 58:13
being just growing very rapidly
58:13 – 58:14
year over year
58:14 – 58:16
because of the
58:16 – 58:18
quality of the meat compared to
58:18 – 58:19
what people can buy in those
58:19 – 58:20
other stores.
58:20 – 58:22
How much do you think that has a
58:22 – 58:24
factor in the demand for quality
58:24 – 58:26
beef at any price or for beef at
58:26 – 58:27
any price in your in your
58:27 – 58:28
context?
58:29 – 58:30
Well, I think it's I think it's
58:30 – 58:31
a huge thing.
58:31 – 58:32
And
58:32 – 58:35
when when beef prices are doing
58:35 – 58:36
what they're doing,
58:36 – 58:39
the big packers have to find
58:39 – 58:41
ways to make it as cheap as
58:41 – 58:42
possible and
58:42 – 58:44
still get the meat into people's
58:44 – 58:45
hands.
58:45 – 58:46
And so
58:46 – 58:47
they're gonna
58:48 – 58:50
do all sorts of things to try to
58:50 – 58:51
make that meat cheaper and
58:51 – 58:52
cheaper.
58:52 – 58:54
I saw it interesting in the
58:54 – 58:57
store the other day was a ground
58:58 – 58:58
pork,
58:59 – 59:00
ground beef mix.
59:00 – 59:01
That was the first time I've
59:01 – 59:02
ever seen that.
59:02 – 59:03
And they're trying to find ways
59:03 – 59:05
to make this cheaper for
59:05 – 59:06
families.
59:08 – 59:09
but we don't ever change.
59:09 – 59:10
You know, our hamburger is
59:10 – 59:11
always 80 -20.
59:11 – 59:12
You know, we're keeping it
59:12 – 59:14
consistent, trying to keep it
59:14 – 59:14
fresh.
59:15 – 59:16
We really focus on,
59:16 – 59:17
as grass finishers,
59:18 – 59:20
we really focus on that that
59:20 – 59:23
animal is well marbled and we're
59:23 – 59:24
doing that visually.
59:24 – 59:25
We're making sure that brisket's
59:25 – 59:26
really full,
59:27 – 59:28
there's tail fat,
59:29 – 59:30
and when they hit that, that's
59:30 – 59:31
when we butcher.
59:31 – 59:32
We don't go on age,
59:33 – 59:34
we go on that look.
59:35 – 59:36
And so I think that is really
59:36 – 59:37
helping
59:38 – 59:39
ourselves is that we're
59:39 – 59:40
consistent with
59:41 – 59:43
an amount of fat inside that
59:43 – 59:44
meat.
59:44 – 59:47
Now we're never gonna grade the
59:47 – 59:48
grain finishers,
59:48 – 59:50
but we're very consistent with
59:50 – 59:51
what it is.
59:52 – 59:54
And a story that a
59:55 – 59:56
good friend of mine, John Van
59:56 – 59:58
Der Giesen, said the other day,
59:58 – 59:59
He was talking about grass
59:59 – 1:00:00
finishers,
1:00:00 – 1:00:03
and he related it to wine,
1:00:04 – 1:00:05
that every grass finisher has
1:00:05 – 1:00:07
its own flavor profile.
1:00:07 – 1:00:08
Every farmer does.
1:00:08 – 1:00:11
And just like wine in a region
1:00:11 – 1:00:14
and in the winery has their own,
1:00:14 – 1:00:16
you know, taste and flavor
1:00:16 – 1:00:17
profile.
1:00:17 – 1:00:19
And that's what we have.
1:00:19 – 1:00:22
We have our region and we're all
1:00:22 – 1:00:23
irrigated
1:00:23 – 1:00:25
pastures, cover crop and grass
1:00:25 – 1:00:26
mixes. And then you've got
1:00:26 – 1:00:27
people that are out in the range
1:00:27 – 1:00:30
and we all have our own
1:00:30 – 1:00:31
flavor profile.
1:00:32 – 1:00:34
And I think our flavor profile
1:00:34 – 1:00:36
definitely resonates with our
1:00:36 – 1:00:37
customers, but we're not going
1:00:37 – 1:00:37
to be
1:00:38 – 1:00:39
the producer for every
1:00:40 – 1:00:41
customer out there.
1:00:41 – 1:00:42
There's going to be some people
1:00:42 – 1:00:44
that don't like my flavor
1:00:44 – 1:00:45
profile. And that is fine.
1:00:46 – 1:00:48
It's, it's figuring out that not
1:00:48 – 1:00:49
everyone is my customer, but
1:00:50 – 1:00:53
speaking really well to who is
1:00:53 – 1:00:55
my customer and telling the
1:00:55 – 1:00:57
story and getting it, getting it
1:00:57 – 1:00:58
in their hands
1:00:58 – 1:01:00
conveniently as possible that
1:01:00 – 1:01:02
you can afford to do.
1:01:02 – 1:01:05
and as consistently flavor
1:01:06 – 1:01:08
-wise as possible because people
1:01:08 – 1:01:09
want that consistency.
1:01:10 – 1:01:11
They don't want it changing all
1:01:11 – 1:01:13
the time. They want consistency
1:01:13 – 1:01:16
and they want easy access.
1:01:16 – 1:01:18
So we try to always be in front
1:01:18 – 1:01:20
of them via social media or
1:01:20 – 1:01:20
email.
1:01:21 – 1:01:22
We try to provide them a very
1:01:22 – 1:01:23
consistent product that they're
1:01:23 – 1:01:24
used to
1:01:24 – 1:01:25
and and
1:01:25 – 1:01:28
get it into the hands of as many
1:01:28 – 1:01:29
people that appreciate the
1:01:29 – 1:01:30
flavor that we, that we have.
1:01:31 – 1:01:33
And that's, that's what we focus
1:01:33 – 1:01:34
on.
1:01:36 – 1:01:37
Brad, I just think, I think you
1:01:37 – 1:01:38
just said something very
1:01:38 – 1:01:39
important that,
1:01:41 – 1:01:41
yeah, I'm sure,
1:01:42 – 1:01:43
I'm sure people heard it, but
1:01:43 – 1:01:44
also,
1:01:45 – 1:01:46
um,
1:01:47 – 1:01:49
we should lean into our local
1:01:49 – 1:01:49
flavor,
1:01:50 – 1:01:51
our local terroir as
1:01:52 – 1:01:53
a strength, not as a weakness.
1:01:53 – 1:01:54
And
1:01:54 – 1:01:56
in the mainstream marketplace,
1:01:57 – 1:01:58
Having a product that is
1:01:58 – 1:02:00
unappealing to some people is
1:02:00 – 1:02:02
considered a weakness.
1:02:03 – 1:02:04
But if you are not in the
1:02:04 – 1:02:04
mainstream,
1:02:05 – 1:02:06
then that is a strength.
1:02:07 – 1:02:09
Like the universal wine, the
1:02:09 – 1:02:10
wine that everyone likes is the
1:02:10 – 1:02:11
cheap wine.
1:02:12 – 1:02:13
Well, no, the people with
1:02:13 – 1:02:14
sophisticated taste buds don't
1:02:14 – 1:02:15
like that.
1:02:15 – 1:02:17
But maybe a better way of saying
1:02:17 – 1:02:19
it is the wine that appeals to
1:02:19 – 1:02:21
it, that wants to appeal to a
1:02:21 – 1:02:22
universal audience is
1:02:22 – 1:02:23
the lowest priced stuff.
1:02:25 – 1:02:28
And I read this fascinating book
1:02:28 – 1:02:30
years ago, and I keep pointing
1:02:30 – 1:02:30
back to it,
1:02:31 – 1:02:32
titled Biochemical
1:02:32 – 1:02:33
Individuality.
1:02:33 – 1:02:34
And it was describing how
1:02:35 – 1:02:37
depending on your body's
1:02:37 – 1:02:39
historical accumulated
1:02:39 – 1:02:41
experiences and your unique
1:02:41 – 1:02:42
biochemical footprint or
1:02:43 – 1:02:45
the composition of your body,
1:02:45 – 1:02:48
you will perceive the flavor
1:02:48 – 1:02:51
of things very differently from
1:02:51 – 1:02:52
the people around you.
1:02:53 – 1:02:55
And there's some obvious cases
1:02:55 – 1:02:57
like the genetic makeup changes
1:02:57 – 1:02:58
that are associated with people
1:02:59 – 1:03:01
either loving cilantro or hating
1:03:01 – 1:03:03
cilantro. But then there are
1:03:03 – 1:03:04
layers and layers of nuance
1:03:04 – 1:03:06
beneath that very obvious
1:03:06 – 1:03:07
example as well.
1:03:08 – 1:03:09
And
1:03:09 – 1:03:11
to your point,
1:03:11 – 1:03:13
it is actually a marketing
1:03:13 – 1:03:14
strength
1:03:14 – 1:03:16
to have unique flavors that are
1:03:16 – 1:03:18
not universal in appeal.
1:03:19 – 1:03:22
And if you are targeting
1:03:22 – 1:03:23
universal appeal,
1:03:24 – 1:03:25
then
1:03:24 – 1:03:27
you're essentially producing a
1:03:27 – 1:03:28
commodity and you're competing
1:03:28 – 1:03:29
with commodities.
1:03:31 – 1:03:32
Yeah, you're
1:03:33 – 1:03:35
challenging my thought.
1:03:37 – 1:03:39
Because a lot of times as you
1:03:39 – 1:03:41
look as a business, you're like,
1:03:41 – 1:03:43
I need to grow, I need to grow,
1:03:43 – 1:03:46
and you're trying to gain market
1:03:46 – 1:03:48
share all the time.
1:03:50 – 1:03:52
as you try to gain that market
1:03:52 – 1:03:53
share,
1:03:54 – 1:03:55
you know, you don't want to
1:03:55 – 1:03:56
become watered down.
1:03:56 – 1:03:57
That's what,
1:03:57 – 1:03:58
you know, some people really
1:03:58 – 1:04:00
love that green finished beef,
1:04:00 – 1:04:01
but it,
1:04:01 – 1:04:03
it tastes all the same and it's
1:04:03 – 1:04:04
very mild and
1:04:05 – 1:04:06
they put all kinds of seasonings
1:04:06 – 1:04:07
on it
1:04:07 – 1:04:09
and make it what they want.
1:04:09 – 1:04:10
Right.
1:04:10 – 1:04:11
Well,
1:04:11 – 1:04:12
I always say that ours doesn't
1:04:12 – 1:04:13
need, you know,
1:04:14 – 1:04:15
it doesn't need much salt and
1:04:15 – 1:04:17
pepper. You know, that's, that's
1:04:17 – 1:04:19
what I always say, like with my
1:04:19 – 1:04:21
pork, just pork chop, just put
1:04:21 – 1:04:23
salt and pepper on it and put it
1:04:23 – 1:04:23
on the grill.
1:04:24 – 1:04:26
and cook it low and slow and get
1:04:26 – 1:04:27
it to temp and you'll have the
1:04:27 – 1:04:28
best eating experience.
1:04:29 – 1:04:30
The fat, you'll crave the fat
1:04:30 – 1:04:31
more than the meat.
1:04:33 – 1:04:35
And because it has that flavor
1:04:35 – 1:04:36
in it, you don't need to add the
1:04:36 – 1:04:37
flavor to it.
1:04:39 – 1:04:40
And I really like that, because
1:04:40 – 1:04:42
I've never thought about those,
1:04:42 – 1:04:45
you know, the big, big beef,
1:04:45 – 1:04:47
it is kind of a, it's just a
1:04:47 – 1:04:48
very mild
1:04:48 – 1:04:49
flavor.
1:04:50 – 1:04:51
And that's probably on purpose,
1:04:52 – 1:04:54
right? That helps everyone
1:04:54 – 1:04:55
be able to eat it.
1:04:56 – 1:04:58
Their customer base is wider,
1:04:58 – 1:05:00
but I don't need to be selling
1:05:00 – 1:05:02
to the world, right?
1:05:02 – 1:05:03
I
1:05:03 – 1:05:05
need to do what's right for my
1:05:05 – 1:05:08
farm size and my context and for
1:05:08 – 1:05:08
our family
1:05:09 – 1:05:13
and just focus on who loves that
1:05:13 – 1:05:13
flavor profile.
1:05:14 – 1:05:15
Well, if you
1:05:15 – 1:05:17
take this idea and this
1:05:17 – 1:05:19
conversation we're having all
1:05:19 – 1:05:20
the way to its extremes, to the
1:05:20 – 1:05:21
end of the spectrum,
1:05:22 – 1:05:23
the one example that we have to
1:05:23 – 1:05:25
point to of someone who has
1:05:25 – 1:05:26
marketed terroir
1:05:27 – 1:05:28
very,
1:05:28 – 1:05:30
very well is Glenn Elzinga from
1:05:30 – 1:05:32
Elder Spring Ranch, who's in
1:05:32 – 1:05:33
your region of the country.
1:05:35 – 1:05:36
I attempted to buy
1:05:37 – 1:05:39
from Elder Spring Ranch sometime
1:05:39 – 1:05:40
ago, a year or two ago, because
1:05:40 – 1:05:42
I wanted to hear, I wanted to
1:05:42 – 1:05:44
experience what the rave was all
1:05:44 – 1:05:45
about and the fact that they've
1:05:45 – 1:05:47
won half a dozen awards for
1:05:47 – 1:05:48
having the best steak.
1:05:49 – 1:05:50
And
1:05:49 – 1:05:52
Stefan Van Vliet has described
1:05:52 – 1:05:53
how
1:05:53 – 1:05:56
they're grazing hundreds of
1:05:56 – 1:05:57
different plant species.
1:05:57 – 1:05:59
And he actually found the
1:05:59 – 1:06:01
compounds from alliums, from
1:06:01 – 1:06:03
onions and chives and garlic and
1:06:03 – 1:06:04
so forth
1:06:04 – 1:06:06
in their meat because they're
1:06:06 – 1:06:08
grazing these wild plants.
1:06:09 – 1:06:10
And do
1:06:11 – 1:06:12
you think I could buy their
1:06:12 – 1:06:13
steak online?
1:06:13 – 1:06:14
They're sold out for months in
1:06:14 – 1:06:17
advance at 60 to 70 bucks a
1:06:17 – 1:06:18
piece.
1:06:18 – 1:06:20
So there's the extreme example
1:06:20 – 1:06:22
of selling terroir from
1:06:23 – 1:06:24
100 % grass fed animals that are
1:06:24 – 1:06:26
known to have remarkable flavor
1:06:26 – 1:06:27
because of the vegetation
1:06:27 – 1:06:28
they're grazing on and because
1:06:28 – 1:06:29
of the environment they're in.
1:06:31 – 1:06:32
Yeah, Glenn's doing a fantastic
1:06:32 – 1:06:34
job. And the way they do that in
1:06:34 – 1:06:36
herding and those animals get
1:06:36 – 1:06:38
across all all the landscape the
1:06:38 – 1:06:39
way they do.
1:06:40 – 1:06:41
And
1:06:41 – 1:06:42
I've never been I've never had
1:06:42 – 1:06:43
the chance to eat it.
1:06:44 – 1:06:44
Um,
1:06:44 – 1:06:46
but I, I should, and I, you
1:06:46 – 1:06:48
know, it's going to have a very
1:06:48 – 1:06:49
unique,
1:06:49 – 1:06:50
um,
1:06:50 – 1:06:51
flavor profile and,
1:06:52 – 1:06:53
and that's what is, that's what
1:06:53 – 1:06:54
sells,
1:06:54 – 1:06:56
uh, for his customer base.
1:06:56 – 1:06:57
And that's, what's amazing is,
1:06:58 – 1:07:00
you know, he has so many, so
1:07:00 – 1:07:02
many such a diverse, you
1:07:02 – 1:07:04
know, plant availability where
1:07:04 – 1:07:05
on
1:07:05 – 1:07:07
my irrigated pastures, just
1:07:07 – 1:07:07
whatever I provide.
1:07:07 – 1:07:08
And that's why we tried to do
1:07:08 – 1:07:10
big cover crop mixes and.
1:07:10 – 1:07:11
get
1:07:11 – 1:07:13
as much diversity in the animal
1:07:13 – 1:07:14
as possible.
1:07:15 – 1:07:16
There's no way we could afford
1:07:16 – 1:07:17
to get to his level,
1:07:18 – 1:07:19
which
1:07:19 – 1:07:21
when it goes back to it, I don't
1:07:21 – 1:07:22
need to either, right?
1:07:22 – 1:07:25
I need to do what fits in our
1:07:25 – 1:07:26
context and
1:07:27 – 1:07:29
what the customer wants, what my
1:07:29 – 1:07:30
customer wants.
1:07:31 – 1:07:32
Exactly.
1:07:33 – 1:07:34
Brad, this has been such an
1:07:34 – 1:07:35
enjoyable conversation.
1:07:35 – 1:07:36
What are the important topics
1:07:36 – 1:07:37
that we've missed talking about?
1:07:41 – 1:07:42
I mean,
1:07:42 – 1:07:42
soil,
1:07:43 – 1:07:45
It is my passion.
1:07:45 – 1:07:46
And we haven't talked a lot
1:07:46 – 1:07:47
about soil.
1:07:48 – 1:07:49
Actually, my license plate,
1:07:50 – 1:07:51
I just got a new one, but my
1:07:51 – 1:07:53
license plate says soil nerd.
1:07:54 – 1:07:57
And it is that that's what is
1:07:57 – 1:07:59
the basis of everything.
1:07:59 – 1:08:00
If you look at everything on
1:08:00 – 1:08:02
this planet that we use daily,
1:08:02 – 1:08:04
everything you can tie back to
1:08:04 – 1:08:05
soil.
1:08:06 – 1:08:07
And so as a people,
1:08:08 – 1:08:10
as customers of things like
1:08:11 – 1:08:14
are we focused enough on the
1:08:14 – 1:08:16
soil health of our region, of
1:08:17 – 1:08:17
our nation?
1:08:18 – 1:08:19
And I think we can do better,
1:08:20 – 1:08:21
always, we can do better.
1:08:21 – 1:08:22
And I think that's really
1:08:22 – 1:08:23
important for people to
1:08:23 – 1:08:24
understand that
1:08:25 – 1:08:26
every choice
1:08:26 – 1:08:28
has a negative or positive
1:08:28 – 1:08:30
influence on their soil health.
1:08:30 – 1:08:31
And the
1:08:32 – 1:08:33
things that they're buying
1:08:33 – 1:08:35
has a negative and a positive,
1:08:36 – 1:08:37
you know, influence on soil
1:08:37 – 1:08:38
health.
1:08:38 – 1:08:39
So we need to be
1:08:39 – 1:08:41
more conscious of it.
1:08:41 – 1:08:42
And we need to vote with our
1:08:42 – 1:08:42
dollar better.
1:08:43 – 1:08:44
And just
1:08:45 – 1:08:46
realize that
1:08:46 – 1:08:47
the soils
1:08:48 – 1:08:49
very important and that the
1:08:49 – 1:08:51
livestock in the soil, we get to
1:08:51 – 1:08:52
see our livestock on top of the
1:08:52 – 1:08:53
soil all the time.
1:08:53 – 1:08:54
If we could only hear
1:08:55 – 1:08:57
and visually see those little
1:08:57 – 1:08:58
guys underneath and what they're
1:08:58 – 1:09:00
saying to us, like we can with
1:09:00 – 1:09:01
our livestock on top,
1:09:02 – 1:09:03
I think we might act a little
1:09:03 – 1:09:04
different.
1:09:06 – 1:09:07
Brad,
1:09:07 – 1:09:08
this is
1:09:09 – 1:09:10
an interesting conversation.
1:09:10 – 1:09:13
You framed this just maybe the
1:09:13 – 1:09:15
way you articulated it triggered
1:09:15 – 1:09:15
something for me.
1:09:16 – 1:09:18
But you framed it as the things
1:09:18 – 1:09:20
that we buy as consumers, but
1:09:20 – 1:09:20
you are
1:09:20 – 1:09:22
a farmer. You're more often
1:09:22 – 1:09:24
thought of as a producer rather
1:09:24 – 1:09:25
than as a consumer.
1:09:25 – 1:09:26
I don't particularly care for
1:09:26 – 1:09:27
those two labels, by the way.
1:09:27 – 1:09:28
But
1:09:28 – 1:09:30
my
1:09:30 – 1:09:32
question for you is,
1:09:33 – 1:09:34
As in your life, as you're
1:09:34 – 1:09:35
making decisions about what to
1:09:35 – 1:09:36
buy and how to spend your
1:09:36 – 1:09:38
dollars, how are you doing
1:09:38 – 1:09:39
things differently today from
1:09:39 – 1:09:39
what you did historically?
1:09:43 – 1:09:45
I think the main thing is I'm
1:09:45 – 1:09:46
actually trying
1:09:47 – 1:09:48
to think about it.
1:09:50 – 1:09:52
Because a lot of times there's
1:09:53 – 1:09:54
just no thought given
1:09:54 – 1:09:56
that what I'm buying, and I'm
1:09:56 – 1:09:57
not perfect at it.
1:09:58 – 1:10:00
The last one to say I'm perfect
1:10:00 – 1:10:01
in all my choices,
1:10:02 – 1:10:03
but I try to consciously think
1:10:03 – 1:10:05
like, what am I doing?
1:10:05 – 1:10:07
What is this doing for the
1:10:07 – 1:10:08
future
1:10:08 – 1:10:09
of my children?
1:10:11 – 1:10:13
their lives, because
1:10:14 – 1:10:15
we're so interconnected.
1:10:16 – 1:10:18
And we like to think like, oh,
1:10:18 – 1:10:19
I'm just making this one
1:10:19 – 1:10:19
decision today,
1:10:20 – 1:10:22
and it doesn't affect anything
1:10:22 – 1:10:23
else.
1:10:24 – 1:10:25
But there's always a cascading
1:10:26 – 1:10:27
effect on every choice.
1:10:27 – 1:10:29
And so I just try to be more
1:10:29 – 1:10:30
conscious of it and just be more
1:10:30 – 1:10:31
aware
1:10:31 – 1:10:32
that
1:10:33 – 1:10:34
maybe I have to make this
1:10:34 – 1:10:35
decision and I'm not happy about
1:10:35 – 1:10:36
it, but how can I change in the
1:10:36 – 1:10:37
future?
1:10:37 – 1:10:39
What can I do differently the
1:10:39 – 1:10:39
next time?
1:10:40 – 1:10:42
And just try to be more
1:10:42 – 1:10:43
thoughtful. It's going to
1:10:43 – 1:10:44
change.
1:10:47 – 1:10:48
Brad, are you thinking about
1:10:48 – 1:10:50
these decisions and just being
1:10:50 – 1:10:51
conscious and being mindful in
1:10:51 – 1:10:53
the context of making purchase
1:10:53 – 1:10:54
decisions for your farming
1:10:54 – 1:10:55
operation or in terms of your
1:10:55 – 1:10:57
household and family or both?
1:10:58 – 1:10:59
Both.
1:10:59 – 1:11:01
And it's, this has been
1:11:01 – 1:11:02
really
1:11:03 – 1:11:04
like the last six months has
1:11:04 – 1:11:05
really been,
1:11:05 – 1:11:07
cause I look at soil and I've
1:11:07 – 1:11:08
always just like, this only
1:11:08 – 1:11:10
affects farm, my farm life.
1:11:12 – 1:11:14
And then the last six months is
1:11:14 – 1:11:15
when I've been really
1:11:16 – 1:11:17
thinking
1:11:18 – 1:11:19
about it more.
1:11:20 – 1:11:21
And I don't know what triggered
1:11:21 – 1:11:22
it.
1:11:22 – 1:11:22
It's just
1:11:23 – 1:11:25
how, if you look at everything
1:11:25 – 1:11:26
goes back to soil
1:11:27 – 1:11:27
and like,
1:11:29 – 1:11:29
you know, civilization,
1:11:30 – 1:11:33
died and they moved because of
1:11:33 – 1:11:34
soil degradation.
1:11:35 – 1:11:36
Am
1:11:37 – 1:11:40
I truly leaving this resource
1:11:40 – 1:11:42
better than I found it
1:11:42 – 1:11:44
for my next generation and my
1:11:44 – 1:11:45
community?
1:11:46 – 1:11:49
Am I involved enough as a member
1:11:49 – 1:11:51
of a community to help others
1:11:51 – 1:11:52
make these changes?
1:11:53 – 1:11:56
It's a passion of mine to make
1:11:56 – 1:11:57
sure we are
1:11:58 – 1:12:00
leaving this
1:12:00 – 1:12:02
resource better.
1:12:03 – 1:12:04
It's just
1:12:04 – 1:12:05
is I think it's very important.
1:12:05 – 1:12:06
And you know, even when you look
1:12:06 – 1:12:07
at building houses,
1:12:08 – 1:12:10
for all these people moving in,
1:12:11 – 1:12:12
lots of people are moving in, in
1:12:12 – 1:12:13
our valley here.
1:12:14 – 1:12:15
But you know, are the
1:12:15 – 1:12:16
construction people really
1:12:16 – 1:12:18
worrying about ground nesting
1:12:18 – 1:12:18
bees?
1:12:19 – 1:12:20
Because that's a huge thing for
1:12:20 – 1:12:21
our seed production around here.
1:12:22 – 1:12:23
Like,
1:12:23 – 1:12:26
no, we're not. So how do we
1:12:26 – 1:12:27
keep all this stuff?
1:12:28 – 1:12:28
You know,
1:12:28 – 1:12:30
humans need a place to live.
1:12:30 – 1:12:31
But how do we structure these
1:12:31 – 1:12:33
things? And how do we keep focus
1:12:33 – 1:12:34
and
1:12:34 – 1:12:35
not
1:12:35 – 1:12:37
Having one of these moments and
1:12:37 – 1:12:38
have to look back and say, well,
1:12:38 – 1:12:39
we really screwed up there.
1:12:40 – 1:12:41
How do we not screw up
1:12:43 – 1:12:45
something in the way that you
1:12:45 – 1:12:47
said that Brad trying to recall
1:12:47 – 1:12:49
the exact words that you use,
1:12:49 – 1:12:50
but paraphrasing something to
1:12:50 – 1:12:52
the effect of how how do we
1:12:52 – 1:12:54
steward this resource?
1:12:56 – 1:12:57
What if we
1:12:58 – 1:13:00
changed our language to no
1:13:00 – 1:13:01
longer think of it as a
1:13:01 – 1:13:02
resource?
1:13:03 – 1:13:04
What if in that framing we are
1:13:04 – 1:13:05
the resource?
1:13:05 – 1:13:06
In other words,
1:13:07 – 1:13:09
instead of the land belonging to
1:13:09 – 1:13:11
us, what if we start thinking
1:13:11 – 1:13:12
about it in the context of us
1:13:12 – 1:13:13
belonging to the land?
1:13:15 – 1:13:17
It will be here longer than us,
1:13:18 – 1:13:19
and
1:13:19 – 1:13:21
we are here to serve it instead
1:13:21 – 1:13:22
of it being here to serve us.
1:13:23 – 1:13:24
How would that change our
1:13:24 – 1:13:25
relationship and the way that we
1:13:25 – 1:13:26
show up?
1:13:27 – 1:13:28
Well, we learned that from
1:13:28 – 1:13:30
scripture that we are stewards
1:13:30 – 1:13:31
and
1:13:32 – 1:13:33
that,
1:13:33 – 1:13:34
yeah, we just have this
1:13:34 – 1:13:36
opportunity for a moment in
1:13:36 – 1:13:37
time.
1:13:38 – 1:13:39
I think that's a lot better way
1:13:39 – 1:13:42
to use it, to look at it,
1:13:43 – 1:13:44
because that's what humans have
1:13:44 – 1:13:45
done is how do we manipulate
1:13:45 – 1:13:47
something to get gain?
1:13:49 – 1:13:51
But how do we stay alive?
1:13:51 – 1:13:52
How do we feed our families and
1:13:52 – 1:13:55
stay financially healthy and
1:13:56 – 1:13:59
live better and look at it in
1:13:59 – 1:13:59
that way?
1:13:59 – 1:14:01
I like it. I think it's a lot
1:14:01 – 1:14:01
better way to
1:14:02 – 1:14:03
look at it. And I
1:14:04 – 1:14:05
think our
1:14:05 – 1:14:06
words matter a lot,
1:14:07 – 1:14:08
the way we say things and the
1:14:08 – 1:14:10
way we
1:14:11 – 1:14:12
voice things.
1:14:12 – 1:14:13
And so I think
1:14:14 – 1:14:16
even saying
1:14:16 – 1:14:18
or viewing it different, I think
1:14:18 – 1:14:19
will help a lot.
1:14:20 – 1:14:21
Yeah.
1:14:21 – 1:14:22
Yeah. Because the words that we
1:14:22 – 1:14:23
use and those thoughts and
1:14:23 – 1:14:25
intentions end up manifesting
1:14:25 – 1:14:26
themselves in our lives and
1:14:26 – 1:14:27
other people's lives.
1:14:27 – 1:14:27
Absolutely.
1:14:29 – 1:14:30
Yep.
1:14:31 – 1:14:32
Brad, this has been such a
1:14:32 – 1:14:33
wonderful conversation.
1:14:33 – 1:14:34
I've greatly enjoyed it.
1:14:35 – 1:14:35
Thank you for all the work that
1:14:35 – 1:14:36
you're doing. Thank you for
1:14:36 – 1:14:38
being here. here and sharing
1:14:38 – 1:14:40
your experience and your wisdom.
1:14:40 – 1:14:41
And I look forward to chatting
1:14:41 – 1:14:42
with you more soon.
1:14:43 – 1:14:44
I really appreciate it, John.
1:14:44 – 1:14:46
It's been it's been a joy and I
1:14:46 – 1:14:46
look forward to more
1:14:46 – 1:14:47
conversations in the future.
