Morgan Twain-Peterson founded Bedrock Wine Company in 2007, growing from humble beginnings in a small outbuilding into a respected winery. Jake Neustadt joined Morgan in 2015, bringing his expertise in transitioning old vineyards to regenerative practices. Together they are focused on enhancing soil health, producing uniquely Californian wines, and preserving California’s historic vineyards, some of which date to the 19th Century.
Morgan and Jake’s work at Bedrock Wine Company shows how regenerative agriculture can restore degraded vineyard soils, significantly increasing soil organic matter and water retention and improving climate resilience. Their practices—including no-till, cover crops, and holistic grazing—not only improve vine health and wine quality but also set a model for sustainable viticulture, addressing the wine industry’s need for differentiation amid declining consumption.
In this episode, John, Morgan, and Jake discuss:
Preserving historic vineyards with diverse varieties unique to California
Transitioning from conventional tillage to no-till organic systems for soil health
Using foliar applications to enhance vine resilience in dry-farmed vineyards
Integrating holistic grazing with sheep to improve soil biology
Planting mixed-variety vineyards to increase resilience and wine complexity
Leveraging genetic diversity for heat tolerance
Additional Resources
To learn more about Bedrock Wine company, please visit: https://bedrockwineco.com/
To listen to the Bedrock Wine Conversations Podcast, please visit: https://open.spotify.com/show/6jAHhAOI9Xy8uKDJmyl5Xx
About John Kempf
John Kempf is the founder of Advancing Eco Agriculture (AEA). A top expert in biological and regenerative farming, John founded AEA in 2006 to help fellow farmers by providing the education, tools, and strategies that will have a global effect on the food supply and those who grow it.
Through intense study and the knowledge gleaned from many industry leaders, John is building a comprehensive systems-based approach to plant nutrition – a system solidly based on the sciences of plant physiology, mineral nutrition, and soil microbiology.
Support For This Show & Helping You Grow
Since 2006, AEA has been on a mission to help growers become more resilient, efficient, and profitable with regenerative agriculture.
AEA works directly with growers to apply its unique line of liquid mineral crop nutrition products and biological inoculants. Informed by cutting-edge plant and soil data-gathering techniques, AEA’s science-based programs empower farm operations to meet the crop quality markers that matter the most.
AEA has created real and lasting change on millions of acres with its products and data-driven services by working hand-in-hand with growers to produce healthier soil, stronger crops, and higher profits.
Beyond working on the ground with growers, AEA leads in regenerative agriculture media and education, producing and distributing the popular and highly-regarded Regenerative Agriculture Podcast, inspiring webinars, and other educational content that serve as go-to resources for growers worldwide.
Learn more about AEA’s regenerative programs and products: https://www.advancingecoag.com
Podcast Transcript
0:00 – 0:01
Hi friends, this is John.
0:01 – 0:02
Welcome back to the Region of
0:02 – 0:03
Agriculture podcast.
0:04 – 0:06
We either fortunately or
0:06 – 0:07
unfortunately,
0:07 – 0:08
we are living in the times of
0:08 – 0:10
the ancient Chinese proverb, may
0:10 – 0:11
you live in interesting times.
0:11 – 0:12
These are certainly interesting
0:12 – 0:13
times, I think, for many of us.
0:14 – 0:15
They're very challenging times.
0:16 – 0:17
And you know, it's in those
0:17 – 0:18
interesting and challenging
0:18 – 0:19
times that
0:20 – 0:22
you have both the greatest risk,
0:23 – 0:25
the greatest resistance,
0:25 – 0:27
to change and the greatest
0:27 – 0:28
opportunities.
0:28 – 0:29
It's kind of this interesting
0:29 – 0:31
contrast where you have the
0:31 – 0:32
greatest opportunities that are
0:32 – 0:33
emerging in these challenging
0:33 – 0:34
times and also
0:35 – 0:38
the greatest risk for many of
0:38 – 0:39
people who are already real
0:39 – 0:40
established.
0:41 – 0:43
And so it's and this is true
0:43 – 0:44
across the entire agricultural
0:44 – 0:46
sector. And perhaps in almost no
0:46 – 0:48
space is this more true than in
0:48 – 0:50
wine production, where we
0:50 – 0:54
have dramatic decreases in wine
0:54 – 0:55
consumption
0:55 – 0:56
and
0:57 – 0:58
particularly in lower grade
0:58 – 0:59
wines, as I understand it.
0:59 – 1:01
It's really the top, the premium
1:01 – 1:02
wines that are the best
1:02 – 1:03
performing. And so there's,
1:03 – 1:05
that's where the opportunity is
1:05 – 1:06
and also where the challenge
1:06 – 1:08
exists is how do you get there?
1:08 – 1:10
So I'm delighted to have this
1:10 – 1:11
conversation today with Morgan
1:11 – 1:12
and Jake.
1:12 – 1:13
Thank you both for being here.
1:14 – 1:15
I'm not going to try to
1:15 – 1:16
communicate your story.
1:16 – 1:17
You've got lots of different
1:17 – 1:18
things going on.
1:18 – 1:19
Tell us a bit about
1:20 – 1:22
the scope of your work, what all
1:22 – 1:23
you're involved with, and how
1:23 – 1:23
you got here.
1:24 – 1:26
Yeah, so Jake and I are with
1:26 – 1:28
Bedrock Wine Company, a winery
1:28 – 1:30
that I founded back in 2007.
1:31 – 1:33
When I started, it was just me
1:33 – 1:35
working out of a 550 square foot
1:35 – 1:37
chicken coop, fermentations
1:37 – 1:39
outside, everything done by
1:39 – 1:39
hand.
1:39 – 1:41
And gradually, we've grown up a
1:41 – 1:42
little bit.
1:43 – 1:45
And the overall goal of the
1:45 – 1:47
winery since day one, though,
1:47 – 1:49
has been to work with really old
1:49 – 1:50
vineyards in California.
1:51 – 1:52
I think what people don't
1:52 – 1:54
realize is that we have some of
1:54 – 1:55
the greatest
1:55 – 1:57
viticultural or agricultural
1:57 – 1:59
treasures in the world and that
1:59 – 2:01
we have vines that are in the
2:01 – 2:03
ground that date to the 1880s.
2:03 – 2:05
So some of the very first vines
2:05 – 2:06
that were planted on resistant
2:06 – 2:09
rootstocks to a root louse
2:09 – 2:10
called Phylloxera,
2:10 – 2:12
and then we even have vines that
2:12 – 2:14
are own rooted in very sandy
2:14 – 2:16
soils that date to the 1890s.
2:17 – 2:18
And within these vineyards, we
2:18 – 2:20
have incredible genetic
2:20 – 2:21
diversity.
2:21 – 2:22
So at our home bedrock vineyard,
2:22 – 2:23
for instance,
2:24 – 2:25
we have over 29 different
2:25 – 2:27
interplanted varieties.
2:27 – 2:29
And among all of the vineyards
2:29 – 2:31
we oversee and farm, we have
2:31 – 2:33
over 50, including varietals
2:33 – 2:34
that have no matching genetic
2:34 – 2:35
fingerprint and worldwide
2:35 – 2:37
databases, which means they're
2:37 – 2:38
extinct where they originally
2:38 – 2:40
came from in Europe, but they
2:40 – 2:43
still exist in our vineyards in
2:43 – 2:44
California.
2:44 – 2:45
So, you know, I feel like in
2:45 – 2:47
some ways we're kind of
2:47 – 2:50
curators of a museum on top of,
2:50 – 2:51
you know,
2:51 – 2:53
hopefully making delicious, you
2:53 – 2:54
know, soulful wine for people to
2:54 – 2:55
enjoy.
2:55 – 2:57
And what we really love about
2:57 – 2:58
that too is we really
2:58 – 3:00
make wine that is truly and
3:00 – 3:01
distinctly Californian.
3:01 – 3:04
When you have vineyards that are
3:04 – 3:05
kind of based around a real
3:05 – 3:07
melting pot of varieties like
3:07 – 3:09
Zinfandel, which is Croatian in
3:09 – 3:10
origin,
3:10 – 3:11
and then varieties from Spain
3:11 – 3:13
and Portugal and France and
3:13 – 3:14
Italy and Central Europe,
3:15 – 3:16
that hodgepodge of varieties
3:16 – 3:18
only exists in California.
3:18 – 3:19
So it's the sort of one wine
3:19 – 3:22
that we make here that we really
3:22 – 3:23
aren't looking elsewhere for
3:23 – 3:24
inspiration,
3:24 – 3:25
which is not something you can
3:25 – 3:26
say. If you make Pinot Noir,
3:27 – 3:28
The great Pinot Noirs originally
3:28 – 3:29
are from Burgundy.
3:29 – 3:30
If you make Cabernet, the first
3:30 – 3:31
great Cabernets are from
3:31 – 3:32
Bordeaux.
3:32 – 3:34
But when you make these old vine
3:34 – 3:35
field blended wines, they're
3:35 – 3:38
really unique to California.
3:40 – 3:41
Morgan, you got the company
3:41 – 3:42
started.
3:42 – 3:44
Jake, what has been your journey
3:44 – 3:46
and story? What got you involved
3:46 – 3:49
working with these old wine
3:49 – 3:49
vineyards?
3:50 – 3:53
So I came out of school from
3:53 – 3:53
actually University of
3:53 – 3:54
California, Davis.
3:55 – 3:57
So one of the more well known
3:57 – 3:58
wine programs, but I came out
3:58 – 4:00
just as a very green undergrad,
4:01 – 4:04
working in cellars, making wine,
4:05 – 4:08
but then found myself wanting to
4:08 – 4:09
get into the field and actually
4:09 – 4:10
accepting a job.
4:11 – 4:12
on a field crew for a full
4:12 – 4:14
season down in the southern
4:14 – 4:16
island of New Zealand in the
4:16 – 4:17
Otago region.
4:17 – 4:20
So I worked shoe thinning, fruit
4:20 – 4:21
thinning, all the way to
4:21 – 4:22
harvesting for a full season in
4:22 – 4:23
New Zealand.
4:24 – 4:26
And that led me back to
4:26 – 4:27
California,
4:27 – 4:28
keeping in viticulture.
4:29 – 4:30
So I took a job,
4:30 – 4:32
a one year job at a winery
4:32 – 4:35
called Ridge Winery, which was
4:35 – 4:37
one of the, along with
4:37 – 4:38
Ravenswood, which is in Morgan's
4:38 – 4:39
family, one
4:41 – 4:42
of the original old vine
4:43 – 4:46
makers of old vine vineyards, of
4:46 – 4:48
these mixed Zinfandel vineyards,
4:48 – 4:50
also one of the early
4:50 – 4:52
wineries that pushed organic
4:52 – 4:53
practices.
4:54 – 4:56
So I worked a full year at Ridge
4:57 – 4:59
and through the connection of
4:59 – 5:01
Ridge and the Historic Vineyard
5:01 – 5:02
Society,
5:02 – 5:04
which is another thing to talk
5:04 – 5:06
about, but both Ridge and
5:06 – 5:07
Bedrock are in the Historic
5:07 – 5:09
Vineyard Society and
5:10 – 5:12
my mentor at Ridge, David Gates,
5:12 – 5:13
who's their president of
5:13 – 5:14
viticulture,
5:15 – 5:16
connected me with Morgan because
5:16 – 5:17
essentially at that time,
5:18 – 5:19
which was 2015,
5:20 – 5:21
Bedrock was making the same
5:21 – 5:23
production that it is now.
5:23 – 5:25
But with half the people with
5:25 – 5:27
Morgan was overseeing all the
5:27 – 5:30
vineyards that we had that we
5:30 – 5:30
were farming.
5:31 – 5:31
So essentially,
5:32 – 5:35
I got hoisted onto Morgan as
5:35 – 5:37
here's someone who can help you
5:37 – 5:38
with
5:38 – 5:39
this project.
5:39 – 5:42
We refer to David Gates at Ridge
5:42 – 5:44
oftentimes as the Yoda of the
5:44 – 5:45
wine industry.
5:45 – 5:47
When he calls and says, hey,
5:47 – 5:49
we've got this extremely
5:49 – 5:49
promising
5:50 – 5:51
who may be the best intern we've
5:51 – 5:53
ever had at Ridge you you pay
5:53 – 5:55
attention and and thankfully we
5:55 – 5:57
did because Jake has really been
5:57 – 6:00
instrumental in kind of taking
6:00 – 6:01
what.
6:01 – 6:02
I kind of hoped for on the broad
6:02 – 6:05
level and really on the day to
6:05 – 6:06
day, implementing it and looking
6:06 – 6:08
at it and that's really been,
6:08 – 6:08
you know,
6:09 – 6:10
my right hand as we've sort of
6:10 – 6:12
gone through the trials and
6:12 – 6:14
tribulations of moving these old
6:14 – 6:15
vineyards, many of which have
6:15 – 6:17
been very traditionally farmed
6:17 – 6:19
via a lot of tillage.
6:20 – 6:22
Uh, usually no cover crops, um,
6:23 – 6:25
oftentimes dry land farmed, um,
6:25 – 6:27
and moving those into, you know,
6:27 – 6:30
non till organic systems with
6:30 – 6:31
holistic grazing practices.
6:32 – 6:34
Um, and all that good stuff
6:34 – 6:35
like.
6:35 – 6:36
figuring out how we can run a
6:36 – 6:38
roller crimper in the vineyard
6:38 – 6:40
and do all of that stuff.
6:40 – 6:42
So, you know, we've learned a
6:42 – 6:43
lot over the last, you know, 10,
6:43 – 6:45
11 years as we've, you know,
6:45 – 6:46
weathered droughts.
6:46 – 6:47
We've got wet seasons, you know,
6:47 – 6:49
but every year I feel like we
6:49 – 6:50
come out, we've learned an
6:50 – 6:52
enormous amount, which is also
6:52 – 6:53
what makes it so fun in many
6:53 – 6:54
ways.
6:54 – 6:55
I'll also say it's very rare
6:55 – 6:57
that I don't walk a vineyard
6:57 – 6:59
with Jake and I'm going home to
6:59 – 7:00
look something up because he's,
7:00 – 7:02
you know, already engaged with a
7:02 – 7:03
new idea that I haven't even
7:03 – 7:05
thought about. So that's always
7:05 – 7:06
really, really special.
7:08 – 7:09
Morgan, tell us a bit about the
7:09 – 7:12
scope or the scale of Bedrock.
7:12 – 7:14
What scale are you operating on,
7:14 – 7:15
just to give us some perspective
7:15 – 7:16
for the different things that
7:16 – 7:17
you're trying?
7:17 – 7:20
Yeah, so there's not a lot of
7:20 – 7:21
old vineyards left in
7:21 – 7:22
California, so we kind of have
7:22 – 7:24
to go to where they are.
7:24 – 7:25
So they're sort of smaller
7:25 – 7:27
pockets and they're quite spread
7:27 – 7:30
out. So our sort of home core
7:30 – 7:31
vineyard is Bedrock Vineyard
7:31 – 7:32
right in the middle of Sonoma
7:32 – 7:33
Valley.
7:33 – 7:35
We have 152 acres in total
7:35 – 7:36
there.
7:37 – 7:39
33 acres are the 1888 planting,
7:39 – 7:40
so that's actually one of the
7:40 – 7:42
largest chunks of old vines left
7:42 – 7:44
in Northern California.
7:45 – 7:46
But then we farm vineyards up in
7:46 – 7:48
North Sonoma County closer to
7:48 – 7:49
Healdsburg.
7:49 – 7:51
We have one vineyard in Napa.
7:51 – 7:53
Then we also farm in Contra
7:53 – 7:55
Costa County, which is out in
7:55 – 7:57
Antioch, which is actually just
7:57 – 7:58
it's surrounded by
7:58 – 8:00
warehouses and tract homes.
8:00 – 8:02
But there's 1890s planted vines
8:02 – 8:03
and sand right on the delta
8:03 – 8:05
there. And then we also have a
8:05 – 8:07
vineyard that we farm in Lodi.
8:07 – 8:08
So sort of all told, we're,
8:09 – 8:11
you know, close to, you know,
8:11 – 8:14
300 acres, but spread out across
8:14 – 8:16
a pretty wide geographic swath.
8:18 – 8:20
Jake, when you think about
8:20 – 8:23
if you have that geographic
8:23 – 8:23
distribution,
8:24 – 8:26
and Morgan mentioned a key point
8:26 – 8:27
earlier, you have these historic
8:27 – 8:28
mines that
8:28 – 8:30
and historical vineyard
8:30 – 8:30
management,
8:30 – 8:32
where you have soils that have
8:32 – 8:33
been tilled
8:33 – 8:36
for decades, or perhaps
8:36 – 8:38
centuries plus, that have
8:38 – 8:40
potentially become quite
8:40 – 8:40
degraded.
8:41 – 8:43
What are some of the challenges,
8:43 – 8:45
and what
8:46 – 8:47
has historical cultural
8:47 – 8:49
management look like, and what
8:49 – 8:50
are you transitioning it to?
8:50 – 8:53
What does it look like today,
8:53 – 8:54
and what do you hope for it to
8:54 – 8:55
look like in the future?
8:56 – 8:57
Right, it's a big question.
8:59 – 9:00
one of these vineyards that
9:00 – 9:02
we've taken on to rehab has had
9:02 – 9:05
such a different past,
9:05 – 9:07
and because of their vastly
9:07 – 9:08
different climates and soils and
9:08 – 9:09
context,
9:10 – 9:11
the plan
9:12 – 9:13
has been very different, but the
9:13 – 9:15
trajectory is always the same,
9:16 – 9:16
or the
9:17 – 9:20
set
9:20 – 9:22
of goals is always the same, but
9:22 – 9:24
on to different contexts.
9:26 – 9:27
So I'll
9:28 – 9:30
take Bedrock as an example.
9:30 – 9:32
In Sonoma so bedrock has a
9:32 – 9:34
history unique from some of
9:34 – 9:35
these older vineyards and that
9:35 – 9:38
it was put on to irrigation
9:38 – 9:39
relatively early.
9:39 – 9:42
and was actually farmed for
9:42 – 9:45
white Zinfandel during the
9:45 – 9:48
1900s,
9:48 – 9:50
the 70s, 80s, 90s.
9:51 – 9:52
And that meant they were pushing
9:52 – 9:54
these old vines with a lot of
9:54 – 9:55
water, a lot of fertilizer to be
9:55 – 9:57
highly productive.
9:58 – 10:00
So it went in a very, very
10:00 – 10:02
conventional direction.
10:02 – 10:04
Whereas some of the other
10:04 – 10:05
vineyards we take on,
10:05 – 10:07
are still in a very traditional
10:07 – 10:08
dry farmed context.
10:09 – 10:10
So that means there's no
10:10 – 10:11
irrigation.
10:11 – 10:13
They're usually cross cultivated
10:13 – 10:14
or because there's no
10:14 – 10:16
irrigation, you can till in both
10:16 – 10:17
directions.
10:18 – 10:19
So you get this what's called a
10:19 – 10:20
dust mulch on the field.
10:21 – 10:23
So those are just vastly
10:23 – 10:25
different starting
10:25 – 10:26
points,
10:27 – 10:28
neither of which are where we
10:28 – 10:30
want to be ultimately.
10:31 – 10:34
But they yield very different
10:34 – 10:36
problems and
10:36 – 10:38
are a much different transition.
10:39 – 10:39
So that's
10:39 – 10:41
kind of the broad scope of what
10:41 – 10:42
we deal with.
10:43 – 10:44
But that's some of the history
10:44 – 10:46
of where these various plantings
10:46 – 10:47
are coming from.
10:47 – 10:48
Where do you hope to take them?
10:50 – 10:52
So again, it's still context
10:52 – 10:55
dependent in that, like at
10:55 – 10:56
Bedrock, for instance,
10:56 – 10:58
we have water there.
10:58 – 10:59
Some vineyards, we truly don't
10:59 – 11:01
have water. And if we do, it's
11:01 – 11:02
salty.
11:03 – 11:05
At Bedrock, we have all the
11:05 – 11:07
tools to take a very
11:07 – 11:09
aggressive,
11:09 – 11:11
I would say, soil rehabilitation
11:11 – 11:13
approach by using
11:13 – 11:16
our irrigation system to be able
11:16 – 11:19
to apply biology and also
11:19 – 11:22
support the vines through a no
11:22 – 11:23
-till transition.
11:25 – 11:27
And then out at Evangelo, which
11:27 – 11:28
is our vineyard in Contra Costa
11:28 – 11:29
County,
11:30 – 11:32
we only get an average of 8 to
11:32 – 11:34
10 inches of rain out there.
11:35 – 11:37
It's on sand, whereas at Bedrock
11:37 – 11:39
and Sonoma, we get 30 inches of
11:39 – 11:40
rain,
11:40 – 11:41
both very Mediterranean,
11:42 – 11:43
so this rain is highly
11:43 – 11:44
concentrated to the winter
11:44 – 11:45
months.
11:46 – 11:48
But so at Evangelo,
11:48 – 11:50
we are using
11:50 – 11:52
the tools we have, which means
11:52 – 11:52
we are still
11:53 – 11:55
cross -cultivating that
11:55 – 11:55
vineyard,
11:56 – 11:58
but we've changed our foliar
11:58 – 11:59
program
12:00 – 12:03
dramatically to support the
12:03 – 12:04
vines from a nutrition
12:04 – 12:05
standpoint.
12:05 – 12:07
And that's already brought in a
12:07 – 12:09
lot of resilience.
12:09 – 12:10
So we're kind of trying to
12:11 – 12:14
maximize vine health at a
12:14 – 12:15
vineyard like that with the
12:15 – 12:16
tools that we have.
12:16 – 12:18
And then maybe that'll unlock a
12:18 – 12:19
next step
12:20 – 12:23
to be able to look more at what
12:23 – 12:25
we can do with that soil.
12:26 – 12:28
I think fundamentally what we're
12:28 – 12:30
looking at in both contexts,
12:30 – 12:32
though, is building soil biology
12:32 – 12:33
back.
12:33 – 12:35
So when we're in a dry land
12:35 – 12:36
system like a Vangelo vineyard,
12:36 – 12:38
we almost have to think about
12:38 – 12:39
that as sort of top down soil
12:39 – 12:42
biology where we can feed the
12:42 – 12:43
plant via foliars.
12:43 – 12:44
And hopefully that helps with
12:44 – 12:46
root exudates and feed biology
12:46 – 12:48
around the vine roots, as well
12:48 – 12:51
as At Bedrock Vineyard, you
12:51 – 12:53
know, we are very aggressive in
12:53 – 12:55
trying to build soil organic
12:55 – 12:58
matter back up the crimping
12:58 – 13:00
animal integration.
13:01 – 13:03
And, you know, because in that
13:03 – 13:04
situation, in terms of what we
13:04 – 13:05
inherited,
13:06 – 13:07
you know, we had soil organic
13:07 – 13:10
matter 10 years ago at like 0
13:10 – 13:12
.3, 0 .4 percent.
13:13 – 13:15
And we've been able to build
13:15 – 13:16
that back up to four and a half
13:16 – 13:18
to 5%, and that obviously has a
13:18 – 13:21
really profound effect on water
13:21 – 13:23
capture and water holding.
13:24 – 13:26
So, you know, we see 20 to 23
13:26 – 13:29
,000 gallons per acre for every
13:29 – 13:31
one person. increase in soil
13:31 – 13:32
organic matter, but then also
13:32 – 13:34
really critical to that is
13:34 – 13:36
because we're a non till you
13:36 – 13:38
here in northern California, we
13:38 – 13:39
get hammered with atmospheric
13:39 – 13:40
rivers.
13:40 – 13:42
Which means we get a lot of our
13:42 – 13:43
rainfall all at once.
13:43 – 13:45
So if you're in a system, a
13:45 – 13:47
traditional tillage system, for
13:47 – 13:48
instance, and you have tilled
13:48 – 13:50
your soil or you've spread
13:50 – 13:51
compost, tilled your soil,
13:52 – 13:53
seeded your cover crops, and
13:53 – 13:55
it's the end of October, and
13:55 – 13:56
then all of a sudden we get nine
13:56 – 13:57
inches of rain, you have no
13:57 – 13:59
roots in the ground, a lot of
13:59 – 14:01
that rain runs off.
14:02 – 14:03
So, you know, for us, it's been
14:03 – 14:05
about, you know, critically
14:05 – 14:05
capturing that.
14:06 – 14:06
And,
14:06 – 14:08
you know, we run soil analysis
14:08 – 14:09
and we also run soil analysis on
14:09 – 14:11
the surrounding chaparral.
14:11 – 14:12
So we kind of know where the
14:12 – 14:14
vineyard started back in the
14:14 – 14:15
1880s and what would sort of be
14:15 – 14:18
a natural soil here.
14:18 – 14:19
And then we're trying to kind of
14:19 – 14:22
rebuild and allow kind of Mother
14:22 – 14:23
Nature to repair itself in some
14:23 – 14:26
ways via our practices.
14:28 – 14:29
I'd like to come back,
14:30 – 14:31
Jake, to you and a comment that
14:31 – 14:32
you made about
14:33 – 14:34
working with foliar applications
14:34 – 14:36
and kind of building biology
14:36 – 14:37
from the top down.
14:37 – 14:39
But before we go there, I want
14:39 – 14:40
to,
14:40 – 14:41
Morgan, I want to ask you about
14:41 – 14:44
your vision as a
14:45 – 14:47
curator of genetic uniqueness
14:47 – 14:50
and these various genetics that
14:50 – 14:51
are no longer readily,
14:51 – 14:53
that are not widely grown or no
14:53 – 14:54
longer readily available
14:54 – 14:54
necessarily.
14:55 – 14:56
How
14:57 – 15:00
What is your vision of bedrock
15:00 – 15:01
and the scope of the work that
15:01 – 15:02
you're doing? Are you expecting
15:02 – 15:04
to see those genetics become
15:04 – 15:05
more broadly utilized again at
15:05 – 15:06
some point in the future?
15:07 – 15:08
What's the vision behind that?
15:09 – 15:12
Yeah, I mean, I think some of it
15:12 – 15:13
is we don't fully know the
15:13 – 15:15
answer to it. But what we do
15:15 – 15:17
know is that as we see
15:17 – 15:20
weather weirding and climate
15:20 – 15:22
change in certain areas, there's
15:22 – 15:23
certain varieties that have
15:23 – 15:25
narrow windows they do
15:25 – 15:26
particularly well.
15:27 – 15:28
And a number of those varieties
15:28 – 15:29
are the ones that are
15:29 – 15:31
widely sold and planted
15:31 – 15:32
throughout the world like Pinot
15:32 – 15:34
Noir and Chardonnay and
15:34 – 15:36
Cabernet. So at some point,
15:36 – 15:37
we're going to have to start
15:37 – 15:39
thinking about what varieties
15:39 – 15:40
that we can plant that will be
15:40 – 15:43
better adapted to the evolution
15:43 – 15:45
of climate.
15:46 – 15:47
I mean, it's getting warmer and
15:47 – 15:48
warmer in Napa, and you see
15:48 – 15:51
people that are already starting
15:51 – 15:52
to plant varieties that hold
15:52 – 15:55
acid better, that stand up to
15:55 – 15:56
extreme heat events better.
15:58 – 15:58
So
15:59 – 16:00
you know, in the context of
16:00 – 16:01
being part of the Historic
16:01 – 16:02
Vineyard Society,
16:02 – 16:04
part of what we've done is
16:04 – 16:06
actually gone through and taken
16:06 – 16:08
cuttings of all of our rare
16:08 – 16:10
varieties and then worked with
16:10 – 16:11
University of California Davis
16:11 – 16:14
to clean those up of virus,
16:14 – 16:15
because a lot of these old
16:15 – 16:17
vineyards have varying levels of
16:17 – 16:20
virus in them, and then have
16:20 – 16:21
them available as sort of an
16:21 – 16:24
open source through their
16:24 – 16:26
ranches and through their sort
16:26 – 16:27
of
16:26 – 16:28
germplasm or whatever you want
16:28 – 16:29
to call it.
16:30 – 16:31
So that means that not only do
16:31 – 16:33
we have California selections of
16:33 – 16:37
varieties of more popular grapes
16:37 – 16:40
like Grenache or Syrah or Petite
16:40 – 16:41
Syrah,
16:41 – 16:42
we even have 1888 planted
16:42 – 16:43
Cabernet at Bedrock.
16:43 – 16:44
We have some of the oldest in
16:44 – 16:45
the world,
16:45 – 16:48
but also the really rare things
16:48 – 16:50
like Mollard and Persan and Etre
16:50 – 16:51
de la Douille and all these
16:51 – 16:53
things that we have two, three
16:53 – 16:54
vines
16:54 – 16:55
total that we've ever seen in
16:55 – 16:56
all of California.
16:57 – 16:58
So I think we're just kind of
16:58 – 16:59
trying to capture that.
17:00 – 17:01
I think part of what really
17:01 – 17:04
feeds our vineyard practice is
17:04 – 17:05
that to me,
17:05 – 17:07
almost all, we often get asked
17:07 – 17:09
how old a vineyard can actually
17:09 – 17:11
age to. And for me,
17:11 – 17:13
I feel like every old vineyard
17:13 – 17:14
that I've seen that's gotten
17:14 – 17:16
torn out, it's been because of
17:16 – 17:18
humans. It's because of,
17:19 – 17:20
they become no longer
17:20 – 17:22
but non -economic because vines
17:22 – 17:24
haven't been replanted as
17:24 – 17:25
they've died. People have really
17:25 – 17:27
drawn down on soil bank
17:27 – 17:28
accounts. They've created a lot
17:28 – 17:29
of compaction.
17:30 – 17:32
They've weakened the vines to
17:32 – 17:34
the point that they become more
17:34 – 17:36
and more prone to pest pressure.
17:37 – 17:39
And all of that then nets to the
17:39 – 17:40
fact that they are no longer
17:40 – 17:42
economically viable and then
17:42 – 17:43
they get torn out and replanted.
17:44 – 17:45
So I think those are a
17:45 – 17:47
reflection of management or all
17:47 – 17:47
of them, really.
17:48 – 17:48
Exactly.
17:48 – 17:50
So, yeah, human management.
17:51 – 17:53
So that's the yeah.
17:53 – 17:54
So, you know, that's the thing
17:54 – 17:56
here where we really feel
17:56 – 17:58
strongly that the way that I
17:58 – 17:59
think
17:59 – 18:00
based on the health response
18:00 – 18:01
that we're seeing from our
18:01 – 18:04
plants over the last six, seven,
18:04 – 18:05
eight years, as we've moved into
18:05 – 18:07
these practices, it really feels
18:07 – 18:08
like we're able to kind of
18:08 – 18:11
reverse the tide in these
18:11 – 18:13
vineyards in terms of what their
18:13 – 18:14
ultimate longevity might be.
18:14 – 18:15
And that means that we're also
18:15 – 18:16
going to better be able to
18:16 – 18:18
preserve, you know, the
18:18 – 18:20
remarkable diversity of genetics
18:20 – 18:21
that are in there.
18:22 – 18:22
You know,
18:22 – 18:24
there's several directions I'd
18:24 – 18:25
like to take this discussion,
18:25 – 18:27
but you mentioned cleaning up
18:27 – 18:29
the viruses in the in the
18:29 – 18:30
cuttings.
18:30 – 18:32
I understand that on one level,
18:32 – 18:34
but if you haven't yet listened
18:34 – 18:36
to the podcast interview that I
18:36 – 18:37
did with Benny McLean from
18:37 – 18:38
Florida Citrus,
18:38 – 18:40
history and the historical
18:40 – 18:41
context,
18:42 – 18:44
once they cleaned up the viruses
18:44 – 18:46
from genetic propagation is when
18:46 – 18:48
genetic resilience went down the
18:48 – 18:49
slide.
18:50 – 18:52
What are those viruses doing
18:52 – 18:55
from a resilience and future
18:55 – 18:56
disease resistance perspective
18:56 – 18:57
that we don't fully recognize or
18:57 – 18:58
appreciate at this point?
18:59 – 19:00
That's a really interesting
19:00 – 19:01
point, John. It's something we
19:01 – 19:03
talk about all the time because
19:03 – 19:04
there's this,
19:05 – 19:07
the wine industry is so focused
19:07 – 19:09
on virus and rightfully so for a
19:09 – 19:11
lot of reasons, but our old
19:11 – 19:12
vines have
19:13 – 19:15
basically every virus.
19:15 – 19:16
you can have.
19:17 – 19:19
They thrived with them.
19:20 – 19:22
Right. And it's a question of, I
19:22 – 19:22
don't know,
19:23 – 19:24
of course, a lot of them were
19:24 – 19:26
planted into much healthier soil
19:26 – 19:28
than we're planting vineyards
19:28 – 19:28
now.
19:30 – 19:32
And then I don't know what virus
19:32 – 19:33
load they had when they were
19:33 – 19:35
planted. I'm sure there was
19:35 – 19:36
plenty.
19:37 – 19:38
But they
19:39 – 19:40
They don't have any of the
19:40 – 19:43
issues that we see with young
19:43 – 19:45
vines being planted with leaf
19:45 – 19:46
roll three, for example,
19:47 – 19:49
which will not ripen, which will
19:49 – 19:50
not thrive.
19:50 – 19:51
But then these old vines that
19:51 – 19:52
have all these viruses,
19:53 – 19:55
deep roots, all these things do
19:55 – 19:56
really well. And that is always
19:56 – 19:58
something I find fascinating.
19:59 – 20:00
I don't know how appropriate it
20:00 – 20:02
is to think of mammalian
20:02 – 20:04
immunity as an analog here, but
20:04 – 20:05
when you have,
20:05 – 20:06
you actually need viral
20:06 – 20:07
exposure.
20:08 – 20:11
to develop antibiotics to analog
20:11 – 20:13
viruses and to create some
20:13 – 20:14
immunity and some resistance.
20:14 – 20:15
So I don't know how appropriate
20:15 – 20:16
it is to have that conversation
20:16 – 20:18
because it's not domain that I'm
20:18 – 20:19
particularly expert in,
20:20 – 20:21
but or have a lot of knowledge
20:21 – 20:22
about. But it's certainly
20:22 – 20:23
something to think about.
20:23 – 20:24
I think it comes down
20:24 – 20:25
fundamentally to
20:26 – 20:29
this different perspective of of
20:29 – 20:30
agriculture and of the
20:30 – 20:31
microbiome is do we have an
20:31 – 20:33
antibiotic approach or a
20:33 – 20:34
probiotic approach?
20:34 – 20:36
Are we collaborating with the
20:36 – 20:37
microbiome or do we
20:37 – 20:39
believe that things need to be
20:39 – 20:40
sterile to be the most
20:40 – 20:41
effective.
20:42 – 20:43
Absolutely. Absolutely.
20:43 – 20:45
And I mean, I think in
20:45 – 20:47
the wine industry, too, that
20:47 – 20:49
concept really plays very
20:50 – 20:52
distinctly to the idea of
20:52 – 20:53
quality. Right.
20:52 – 20:54
Because the greatest wines in
20:54 – 20:56
the world, people think are
20:56 – 20:58
extremely reflective of their
20:59 – 21:00
fancy French word, their
21:00 – 21:01
terroir,
21:01 – 21:03
their where, you know, where
21:03 – 21:04
they're grown.
21:04 – 21:05
So you would think and I think
21:05 – 21:07
this is really what Jake and I,
21:07 – 21:08
you know, kind of think about a
21:08 – 21:09
lot is
21:09 – 21:11
of vine that are in better
21:11 – 21:12
communication,
21:12 – 21:14
that are working synergistically
21:14 – 21:16
with the soils, that have more
21:16 – 21:17
alive soils, that have more
21:17 – 21:18
biology.
21:18 – 21:20
We feel that in the winery, we
21:20 – 21:22
see that those wines have a
21:22 – 21:24
better sense of place, that
21:24 – 21:26
bedrock almost is more bedrocky
21:26 – 21:28
now than it was 10 years ago,
21:29 – 21:30
which is just a really
21:30 – 21:31
fascinating thing because it's
21:31 – 21:33
obviously extremely complex and
21:33 – 21:35
you can't reduce it to a single
21:35 – 21:37
variable or factor, but at the
21:37 – 21:39
same time we're seeing not just
21:39 – 21:41
our vineyards becoming much more
21:41 – 21:43
resilient to heat events, to
21:43 – 21:44
droughts, to floods,
21:44 – 21:48
but also seeing a increase
21:48 – 21:51
in quality, which is, you know,
21:51 – 21:52
fundamentally also very
21:52 – 21:53
important.
21:54 – 21:55
So Morgan,
21:55 – 21:56
let's build on what you just
21:56 – 21:57
said. Jake, I'd like to come
21:57 – 21:58
back to you.
21:59 – 22:01
When Morgan is describing the
22:01 – 22:02
increasing resilience that
22:02 – 22:03
you're observing,
22:04 – 22:05
I'm sure you're doing many
22:05 – 22:06
different things.
22:07 – 22:09
What are the different things
22:09 – 22:10
that you're doing?
22:10 – 22:11
What are the effects that you're
22:11 – 22:12
observing?
22:12 – 22:14
Just from a practical
22:14 – 22:15
implementation and management
22:15 – 22:16
perspective, you mentioned
22:16 – 22:17
foliar applications a little bit
22:17 – 22:18
ago, but I'm sure that they are
22:18 – 22:20
one piece of a broad number of
22:20 – 22:21
different things that you're
22:21 – 22:21
working on.
22:22 – 22:24
Right. I'll kind of start, go
22:24 – 22:25
through a season, kind of
22:25 – 22:26
starting with where we're at
22:26 – 22:27
right now. So we just ended
22:27 – 22:28
harvest.
22:28 – 22:30
We just got our first rains the
22:30 – 22:31
other day. And right before the
22:31 – 22:32
rains,
22:32 – 22:35
we no -till seeded
22:35 – 22:37
This is at Bedrock Vineyard.
22:37 – 22:38
So on the whole hundred acres,
22:38 – 22:40
no till seeded, a highly diverse
22:40 – 22:42
cover crop blend.
22:44 – 22:45
So that's essentially all
22:45 – 22:49
annuals of legumes and forbs and
22:49 – 22:52
grasses that will grow
22:52 – 22:55
through to January, where
22:55 – 22:57
we'll bring in our
22:58 – 22:58
shepherd
22:59 – 23:01
who helps us out to do non high
23:01 – 23:02
intensity grazing.
23:02 – 23:05
So we run about 300 sheep an
23:05 – 23:08
acre for 24 hours at a time
23:08 – 23:09
to
23:09 – 23:11
48 depending on the amount of
23:11 – 23:13
biomass and then move them
23:13 – 23:14
through. So everything will get
23:15 – 23:17
bitten and trampled once and
23:17 – 23:18
then
23:19 – 23:20
the regrowth that comes back,
23:20 – 23:22
because we tend to get
23:22 – 23:24
incredible regrowth after the
23:24 – 23:25
grazing up to, you know, four,
23:25 – 23:27
four feet plus of cover crop.
23:27 – 23:30
And that will get normally
23:30 – 23:31
crimped with a roller crimper
23:31 – 23:35
rolled down, or high mode or a
23:35 – 23:37
combination of both.
23:38 – 23:39
And the
23:39 – 23:41
goal is of that in our in our
23:41 – 23:42
context is after,
23:43 – 23:44
you know, after
23:44 – 23:46
March for us, there's typically
23:46 – 23:49
no rain until around now, until
23:49 – 23:50
mid -October.
23:50 – 23:52
So our goal is to create a nice
23:52 – 23:55
thick mulch layer on the top of
23:55 – 23:55
the
23:55 – 23:58
vineyard floor to protect,
23:58 – 24:01
one, to hold moisture in and
24:02 – 24:04
prolong the moist period for
24:04 – 24:05
biology.
24:05 – 24:06
And then also, once everything
24:06 – 24:08
does dry out, just to protect
24:08 – 24:09
from outright heat and solar
24:09 – 24:10
radiation.
24:11 – 24:12
So
24:12 – 24:14
that takes us through the
24:14 – 24:14
summer.
24:15 – 24:17
where we are, you know, focusing
24:17 – 24:19
on foliar nutrient management,
24:19 – 24:21
all these things, and then all
24:21 – 24:23
the way to this time of year
24:23 – 24:26
where we go back and and seed
24:26 – 24:27
again. So that's our I
24:28 – 24:29
guess that's mostly floor
24:29 – 24:30
management, but that's a huge
24:30 – 24:31
piece. And that's what we've
24:31 – 24:32
been doing for
24:33 – 24:35
six, seven years consistently is
24:35 – 24:36
that program.
24:37 – 24:38
And was it in that seven year
24:38 – 24:39
time frame that you built
24:39 – 24:41
organic matter levels from with
24:41 – 24:43
these cover crops from half a
24:43 – 24:44
percentage point or less up to
24:46 – 24:47
So that in some ways the
24:47 – 24:49
transition really started more
24:49 – 24:52
back in 2008 2010 when the
24:52 – 24:53
vineyard was moved from highly
24:53 – 24:55
conventional to more what I
24:55 – 24:58
would call traditional organic
24:58 – 24:59
viticulture, especially in this
24:59 – 25:00
area.
25:00 – 25:01
quality wine region.
25:02 – 25:03
So that involved
25:03 – 25:06
a lot of compost, like three to
25:06 – 25:08
five tons an acre of compost
25:08 – 25:11
over the whole 100 acres,
25:11 – 25:12
spreading that,
25:13 – 25:14
tilling that in,
25:15 – 25:16
seeding a cover crop, growing a
25:16 – 25:18
huge massive cover crop,
25:18 – 25:20
knocking that down, disking it
25:20 – 25:22
in, having bare ground all
25:22 – 25:22
summer.
25:23 – 25:24
But that
25:24 – 25:26
certainly helped
25:26 – 25:29
a lot at the beginning to bring
25:29 – 25:29
the soil,
25:30 – 25:30
and Morgan you'd know better
25:30 – 25:32
than me, but from that like half
25:32 – 25:35
percent to more like two to two
25:35 – 25:36
and a half percent organic
25:36 – 25:38
matter and then it kind of
25:38 – 25:40
plateaued until we kind of
25:40 – 25:41
started the next phase of
25:42 – 25:42
practices.
25:43 – 25:44
I think that was the real tricky
25:44 – 25:46
thing is we began to get really
25:46 – 25:47
frustrated with sort of
25:47 – 25:49
traditional organic practices
25:49 – 25:50
that were so tillage based
25:50 – 25:52
because it really put a ceiling
25:52 – 25:55
on our capacity to build soil
25:55 – 25:57
organic matter and also just
25:57 – 25:58
from a,
25:58 – 25:59
you know, a carbon standpoint,
25:59 – 26:01
it's like you grow these huge
26:01 – 26:02
cover crops after you've spread
26:02 – 26:04
a ton of compost and all that
26:04 – 26:05
compost has arrived.
26:05 – 26:07
you know, by truck 24 tons at a
26:07 – 26:08
time from a yard,
26:09 – 26:10
and all the stuff that's
26:10 – 26:11
upstream of that.
26:11 – 26:14
So it's really intensive in
26:14 – 26:14
terms of inputs.
26:15 – 26:17
It's really hard to sometimes
26:17 – 26:18
get it all timed, because if you
26:18 – 26:19
have a rainstorm coming,
26:20 – 26:21
spreading the compost, disking
26:21 – 26:23
the compost, getting the seeder
26:23 – 26:23
on,
26:23 – 26:25
if any of the, you know,
26:25 – 26:26
things break,
26:26 – 26:28
you're kind of in a bad spot.
26:29 – 26:30
And so that's sort of like why
26:30 – 26:31
we really started,
26:32 – 26:33
you know,
26:33 – 26:34
thinking about what we could do
26:34 – 26:36
next in terms of moving into non
26:36 – 26:38
-till. And I will say,
26:38 – 26:42
keeping the ground covered is
26:42 – 26:44
profound in terms of what it
26:44 – 26:46
does for grapes in terms of
26:46 – 26:47
weathering heat events.
26:48 – 26:51
So back in 2022, we had six
26:51 – 26:53
days where it went to over 112
26:53 – 26:56
degrees in a row, and our
26:56 – 26:58
neighboring vineyards that were
26:58 – 26:59
fully tilled.
27:00 – 27:01
The heat that was coming off the
27:01 – 27:03
reflected heat was like 160 to
27:03 – 27:05
170 degrees. And that's
27:05 – 27:07
reflecting back onto the fruit.
27:07 – 27:09
And in that situation, the fruit
27:09 – 27:10
begins to degrade its
27:10 – 27:12
anthocyanin and its color, which
27:12 – 27:13
is really critical to the
27:13 – 27:14
quality of red wine.
27:15 – 27:16
Well, as our vineyards have been
27:16 – 27:17
roller crimped and had a nice
27:17 – 27:18
thick thatch on them,
27:19 – 27:20
you know, they were still like
27:20 – 27:22
in the low nineties, high
27:22 – 27:23
eighties. So you also figure
27:23 – 27:24
that the underground soil
27:24 – 27:26
biology is also able to stay
27:26 – 27:28
alive. So that's just like one
27:28 – 27:29
really.
27:30 – 27:31
profound change that we've just
27:31 – 27:32
seen just by simply like
27:32 – 27:34
starting to keep the soil
27:34 – 27:34
covered.
27:36 – 27:37
That reflected heat, those
27:37 – 27:39
reflected heat numbers that you
27:39 – 27:40
gave me, there was a much bigger
27:40 – 27:41
delta than I expected.
27:42 – 27:44
Yeah, no, I mean, the first time
27:44 – 27:45
like I was out there, I took my
27:45 – 27:47
like pizza thermometer and just
27:47 – 27:48
was like, you know,
27:48 – 27:49
for the oven was pointing it at
27:49 – 27:50
the ground.
27:50 – 27:51
And I was like, this cannot be
27:51 – 27:52
correct.
27:51 – 27:53
And so then took another couple
27:53 – 27:54
implements.
27:54 – 27:55
But yeah, it was like, you know,
27:55 – 27:58
a 50 to 60 degree delta between
27:58 – 27:58
the two.
28:00 – 28:00
Wow.
28:02 – 28:03
And I can only imagine, well,
28:03 – 28:05
obviously it means a lot of
28:05 – 28:07
things for for the
28:08 – 28:09
anthocyanins and wine quality,
28:09 – 28:10
but also you just think about
28:10 – 28:11
the fundamentals of
28:11 – 28:12
photosynthesis.
28:12 – 28:14
Yes. And the water stress,
28:14 – 28:15
all that stuff.
28:16 – 28:17
I would also say that.
28:18 – 28:20
We started cover cropping and
28:20 – 28:21
crimping on an experimental
28:21 – 28:24
basis back in 2015 and 16.
28:25 – 28:26
I think,
28:27 – 28:28
and I think that that's a really
28:28 – 28:29
important thing.
28:29 – 28:30
I think what we did learn,
28:30 – 28:32
though, is that if you move
28:32 – 28:33
right into that and you don't
28:33 – 28:35
take into account vine nutrition
28:35 – 28:38
levels, you really can stub your
28:38 – 28:40
toe on yield lag, on creating
28:40 – 28:42
excessive, a lot of competition
28:42 – 28:43
for vines, and you can kind of
28:43 – 28:44
see a drop off there.
28:45 – 28:45
So,
28:45 – 28:47
from what we learned is that we
28:47 – 28:48
almost have to think about the
28:48 – 28:50
vine nutrient status.
28:50 – 28:51
as sort of one trajectory.
28:52 – 28:53
rebuilding the soil as another
28:53 – 28:55
trajectory, and then eventually
28:55 – 28:56
those two kind of come together
28:56 – 28:59
as you sort of rebuild the
28:59 – 29:00
biology in the system.
29:01 – 29:02
And what we've also seen is once
29:02 – 29:04
we started grazing on Haney
29:04 – 29:07
tests within a year, we are
29:07 – 29:10
seeing 4x the amount of soil
29:10 – 29:11
biology.
29:11 – 29:12
So like the grazing really
29:12 – 29:14
almost like turbo charges
29:14 – 29:14
everything.
29:16 – 29:17
All right. Hang on a second
29:17 – 29:19
here. Sorry, threw a lot at you
29:19 – 29:20
there. No, this is good.
29:20 – 29:22
But just the way you framed
29:22 – 29:25
the conversation around matching
29:25 – 29:26
vine nutrition
29:26 – 29:29
with the
29:29 – 29:31
cover crops so
29:31 – 29:33
that you don't have a yield loss
29:33 – 29:34
effect.
29:34 – 29:35
Let's go into that into a little
29:35 – 29:36
bit more detail.
29:36 – 29:38
And this is a topic that I find
29:38 – 29:39
so important because
29:39 – 29:41
there's
29:42 – 29:44
come to be within certain groups
29:44 – 29:46
this expectation that as we go
29:46 – 29:47
through a transition, we should
29:47 – 29:49
expect to see a yield loss.
29:49 – 29:50
And
29:50 – 29:51
I'm of the opinion
29:51 – 29:53
that if you have a yield loss,
29:53 – 29:54
it's because of poor agronomy,
29:54 – 29:56
not because of a certain set of
29:56 – 29:57
practices that you may or may
29:57 – 29:58
not do.
29:58 – 30:00
So I'd like to better understand
30:00 – 30:01
what you observed and
30:01 – 30:02
experienced there.
30:04 – 30:07
So when we first started roller
30:07 – 30:08
crimping, it wasn't every site,
30:09 – 30:11
but I'll stick to bedrock.
30:11 – 30:12
But when we first went,
30:13 – 30:14
you know, one year we were doing
30:14 – 30:16
that compost system I described,
30:16 – 30:19
the next we were doing a
30:20 – 30:21
full crimped
30:22 – 30:22
floor.
30:23 – 30:24
And this was before we were
30:24 – 30:25
looking at SAP, we were taking
30:25 – 30:27
dry tissue analysis, you know,
30:27 – 30:28
we were doing typical
30:29 – 30:31
viticulture monitoring.
30:32 – 30:34
But we saw in those first two
30:34 – 30:36
years of doing that, kind of
30:36 – 30:37
what everybody
30:37 – 30:38
warned you about.
30:38 – 30:40
And this is such a common
30:40 – 30:43
conversation in the viticulture
30:43 – 30:45
world right now about to non
30:45 – 30:46
-till and your loss of vigor.
30:47 – 30:48
And we definitely saw that, but
30:48 – 30:52
we were not looking at nitrogen
30:52 – 30:53
in the right way.
30:53 – 30:54
For instance, we weren't looking
30:54 – 30:55
at timing
30:55 – 30:58
of nutrient applications to try
30:58 – 31:01
to compensate for what has
31:01 – 31:02
changed in the system.
31:03 – 31:04
We were no longer getting this
31:04 – 31:06
massive flush of green manure
31:07 – 31:08
every time the vines were coming
31:08 – 31:09
out of dormancy,
31:10 – 31:11
but we were not adequately
31:12 – 31:14
accounting for that change.
31:14 – 31:16
So we saw pruning weights go
31:16 – 31:17
down by half,
31:18 – 31:20
yields go down by half, you
31:20 – 31:23
know, like really extreme vigor
31:23 – 31:24
losses. So it
31:24 – 31:26
took us kind of taking a step
31:26 – 31:26
back
31:26 – 31:29
and, of course, learning a lot
31:29 – 31:31
more to learn how to make those
31:31 – 31:33
transitions successfully without
31:33 – 31:34
seeing those. And now we're able
31:34 – 31:35
to do that.
31:37 – 31:38
But when you think about,
31:38 – 31:40
Morgan, the way that you framed
31:40 – 31:42
the discussion, I forget the
31:42 – 31:44
exact phraseology that you used,
31:44 – 31:45
but something to the effect of
31:45 – 31:47
the trajectory of wine nutrition
31:47 – 31:49
versus the trajectory of soil
31:49 – 31:50
nutrition status.
31:50 – 31:51
How are you thinking about that?
31:53 – 31:54
So I think the
31:55 – 31:56
way that we think about it is
31:56 – 31:59
it's almost hard to overstate
31:59 – 31:59
how
32:00 – 32:02
beat up soils and a lot of these
32:02 – 32:03
old vineyards are because they
32:03 – 32:04
literally have been
32:05 – 32:08
discs into oblivion for a lot of
32:08 – 32:11
times just to powder for 100
32:11 – 32:12
plus years.
32:12 – 32:14
So you're just starting from
32:14 – 32:15
like nothing.
32:15 – 32:16
So it really is like,
32:17 – 32:19
so it really is quite a shock to
32:19 – 32:21
the system if all of a sudden
32:21 – 32:22
vines that have sort of been
32:22 – 32:24
kind of holding on in that
32:24 – 32:25
environment are all of a sudden
32:25 – 32:27
then finding themselves in
32:27 – 32:29
competition with other plants
32:29 – 32:30
that are around them.
32:30 – 32:32
So the way we think, sort of
32:32 – 32:34
thought about it is that sort of
32:34 – 32:35
we think about
32:35 – 32:37
And this has really helped our
32:37 – 32:38
more recent transitions and
32:38 – 32:39
other places that we've done as
32:39 – 32:42
well. really think about the
32:42 – 32:45
vine health and the vine
32:45 – 32:46
nutrient status.
32:46 – 32:48
And we, and this is an area
32:48 – 32:49
where like SAP analysis has been
32:49 – 32:51
really, really critical for us
32:51 – 32:53
to be able to see how nutrients
32:53 – 32:54
are being translocated
32:54 – 32:55
throughout the plant, what we
32:55 – 32:57
might need to supplement via
32:57 – 32:59
foliar or other means to make
32:59 – 33:00
sure that the vine
33:00 – 33:02
is not excessively freaked out
33:02 – 33:04
by all of its new companions in
33:04 – 33:05
the field.
33:05 – 33:07
And then as we gradually build
33:07 – 33:09
soil biology back up and we get
33:09 – 33:11
to four or five percent soil
33:11 – 33:12
organic matter, we actually get
33:12 – 33:15
real nutrient cycling going on
33:15 – 33:17
in the soil and the biology has
33:17 – 33:17
been rebuilt,
33:18 – 33:19
then we can kind of like
33:19 – 33:21
you know, step back a little bit
33:21 – 33:23
and kind of allow the system to
33:23 – 33:24
actually operate as it probably
33:24 – 33:26
operated when the vines were
33:26 – 33:27
first planted when there still
33:27 – 33:29
was four to six percent organic
33:29 – 33:31
matter in the soil before it had
33:31 – 33:33
been tilled to powder for a
33:33 – 33:34
century, you know.
33:34 – 33:36
So, and then the, you know, the
33:36 – 33:37
compaction as well in certain
33:37 – 33:39
sites and all the stuff that
33:39 – 33:39
comes with that.
33:40 – 33:43
And so that's sort of like what
33:43 – 33:43
we look at it now.
33:44 – 33:45
And then, you know, and What we
33:45 – 33:48
find so fascinating, too, and we
33:48 – 33:50
work with Green Cover Seed, who
33:50 – 33:51
I know he's been on the pod
33:51 – 33:53
before, but, you know, now
33:53 – 33:54
figuring out all the things
33:54 – 33:57
about quorum sensing and once
33:57 – 33:59
you build into those systems and
33:59 – 34:00
when we can now have,
34:00 – 34:02
I think our cover crops this
34:02 – 34:03
year are 22 different plant
34:03 – 34:05
species across eight different
34:05 – 34:07
families and trying to build as
34:07 – 34:09
much diversity during,
34:10 – 34:11
you know, the winter months.
34:12 – 34:13
it's,
34:13 – 34:14
you know, that part's just been
34:14 – 34:15
fascinating.
34:15 – 34:16
And it's just been fascinating
34:16 – 34:17
to see that the vines,
34:18 – 34:19
now that they're sort of in a
34:19 – 34:21
proper system,
34:21 – 34:24
how much longer they hold on to
34:24 – 34:25
their leaves for,
34:25 – 34:28
how much I think probably post
34:28 – 34:29
-harvest carbohydrate uptake is
34:29 – 34:31
improved because the canopies
34:31 – 34:32
are still intact.
34:33 – 34:34
Things like that, where there's
34:34 – 34:36
just things that we see in terms
34:36 – 34:39
of plant health that we just
34:39 – 34:39
didn't see before.
34:43 – 34:45
Practically, what is different
34:45 – 34:47
today from what you first
34:47 – 34:48
started observing 10 years ago?
34:48 – 34:50
What are you doing differently
34:50 – 34:50
today
34:51 – 34:52
from what you were doing 10
34:52 – 34:53
years ago?
34:54 – 34:56
One of the first things we did,
34:56 – 34:58
even before we were looking at
34:58 – 35:00
sap, it goes back to what I was
35:00 – 35:00
saying about
35:01 – 35:03
just considering what has
35:03 – 35:04
changed in the system.
35:04 – 35:06
So one thing we started doing
35:06 – 35:08
was supplying
35:09 – 35:11
nitrogen, in this case at
35:11 – 35:13
Bedrock, which is organic soy
35:13 – 35:15
protein hydrolysate, supplying
35:15 – 35:18
it much earlier than is typical
35:18 – 35:19
and what had been typical for us
35:19 – 35:20
to
35:21 – 35:23
give the plants what they
35:23 – 35:24
partially
35:24 – 35:25
part of what they would have
35:25 – 35:26
been getting from that green
35:26 – 35:28
manure breaking down, which was
35:28 – 35:29
highly leguminous.
35:30 – 35:32
So one thing was just a little
35:32 – 35:34
bit of water and nitrogen early,
35:35 – 35:36
because what we were seeing was
35:36 – 35:37
just shoot growth
35:37 – 35:40
starting and stopping much, much
35:40 – 35:41
earlier. So just
35:41 – 35:43
greasing the gears a little bit
35:43 – 35:44
at the beginning in that way.
35:45 – 35:47
And that was kind of the first
35:47 – 35:48
breakthrough.
35:49 – 35:51
And since then, it's been
35:51 – 35:52
following nutrition with the
35:52 – 35:53
whole season.
35:53 – 35:53
So in grapes,
35:54 – 35:56
we spray for powdery mildew in
35:56 – 35:58
an organic system every two to
35:58 – 36:00
three weeks with wettable
36:00 – 36:01
sulfur.
36:00 – 36:02
Wettable sulfur is really the
36:02 – 36:04
only thing we use for mildew.
36:04 – 36:05
And
36:06 – 36:07
that
36:06 – 36:08
isn't ideal,
36:08 – 36:10
but what it does allow is it
36:10 – 36:11
means we're set up to spray
36:11 – 36:13
quite consistently.
36:13 – 36:15
So fitting these
36:15 – 36:16
other
36:16 – 36:18
Basically, making our tank mixes
36:18 – 36:21
more useful than just sulfur is
36:21 – 36:24
such an easy addition to the
36:24 – 36:27
program that it has fit right in
36:27 – 36:28
so we're able to
36:28 – 36:30
evaluate SAP. and spray,
36:30 – 36:32
evaluate spray, you know, six
36:32 – 36:34
times or more throughout the
36:34 – 36:35
season.
36:35 – 36:37
Oh my, do I ever have a magical
36:37 – 36:38
product for you?
36:41 – 36:42
Yeah,
36:42 – 36:43
I mean,
36:43 – 36:46
It is sort of one of the great
36:46 – 36:47
challenges of the wine industry
36:47 – 36:49
is just sort of the omnipresence
36:49 – 36:51
of powdery mildew pressure.
36:51 – 36:53
And honestly, certain grapes
36:53 – 36:54
that the market has kind of
36:54 – 36:56
selected that they like, like
36:56 – 36:58
Chardonnay, is extremely prone
36:58 – 37:00
to it. And then the areas where
37:00 – 37:00
they're considered to be
37:00 – 37:03
qualitatively good is where the
37:03 – 37:04
powdery mildew index is off the
37:04 – 37:05
charts.
37:05 – 37:06
all year round.
37:06 – 37:07
And so then it sort of,
37:08 – 37:09
so in some ways it's kind of
37:09 – 37:10
silly.
37:10 – 37:12
But, you know, what I will say
37:12 – 37:14
is we've seen
37:15 – 37:17
powdery mildew pressure go down
37:17 – 37:19
as a result of these practices.
37:19 – 37:21
It just seems like plant cell
37:21 – 37:22
walls are healthier.
37:23 – 37:25
So the pressure has gone down.
37:25 – 37:26
And I think
37:26 – 37:27
My greatest hope is at some
37:27 – 37:28
point we get to a point where
37:28 – 37:30
the plants are healthy enough
37:30 – 37:32
that we really don't even have
37:32 – 37:33
to think about it.
37:33 – 37:34
There's a couple vineyards I
37:34 – 37:35
know that have been able to do
37:35 – 37:36
that.
37:37 – 37:38
But then also really the
37:38 – 37:40
resistance to insect pressure
37:40 – 37:41
has been,
37:41 – 37:42
you know, in Zinfandel, which
37:42 – 37:44
can be very prone to Pacific and
37:44 – 37:45
Willamette spider mites,
37:45 – 37:49
we no longer have spider mites.
37:49 – 37:50
We have incredibly diverse
37:50 – 37:52
insect populations that keep
37:52 – 37:53
each other in balance.
37:53 – 37:55
Uh, knock on wood at bedrock, we
37:55 – 37:56
still have not dealt with vine
37:56 – 37:57
mealy bug, which has been a real
37:57 – 37:59
issue, um, in some parts of
37:59 – 38:00
California.
38:00 – 38:02
Um, and so it's just, and then
38:02 – 38:04
leaf hoppers and out in Contra
38:04 – 38:06
Costa County, which were a real
38:06 – 38:07
issue.
38:07 – 38:08
Um,
38:08 – 38:10
it starting this year, when we
38:10 – 38:11
started actually spraying a
38:11 – 38:12
couple of products, we
38:12 – 38:13
literally,
38:13 – 38:15
they went away like the
38:15 – 38:16
neighboring vineyards had them.
38:16 – 38:18
But we, we didn't.
38:18 – 38:19
And that was, you know,
38:19 – 38:21
I mean that that stuff's all
38:21 – 38:22
very, very interesting to see,
38:22 – 38:24
but also allows us to kind of
38:24 – 38:26
model. plant health in many
38:26 – 38:27
ways. Cause if we're seeing
38:27 – 38:29
susceptibility to the virus, I
38:29 – 38:30
mean,
38:29 – 38:31
I think you've talked about it a
38:31 – 38:32
lot where, you know,
38:33 – 38:34
pests attack weak plants.
38:35 – 38:36
So if the plants are stronger,
38:37 – 38:38
you know, you're going to have
38:38 – 38:38
less pest pressure.
38:40 – 38:42
Have you, I'm quite curious on,
38:42 – 38:44
on many plans, particularly on
38:44 – 38:46
annuals, once we start working
38:47 – 38:48
with,
38:49 – 38:51
nutritional support and
38:51 – 38:52
microbiome support.
38:52 – 38:55
Often there are changes in
38:55 – 38:56
epigenetic expression.
38:56 – 38:57
You start seeing changes in leaf
38:57 – 38:59
expression or node expression.
38:59 – 39:01
There's all types of subtle
39:01 – 39:02
changes. Sometimes they're much
39:02 – 39:03
more obvious than others.
39:05 – 39:07
Have you observed any of that
39:07 – 39:09
changed expression on these
39:09 – 39:10
older varieties?
39:10 – 39:11
I'm curious how these long
39:11 – 39:12
-lived perennial plants might
39:12 – 39:14
respond differently than as
39:14 – 39:15
compared to a short
39:15 – 39:17
-lived annual plant.
39:18 – 39:19
You know, in this case, we've
39:19 – 39:22
been really tracking sap and
39:22 – 39:24
applying for about two full
39:24 – 39:25
seasons now.
39:26 – 39:28
And the main change I've seen is
39:28 – 39:32
mid -season canopy color without
39:32 – 39:32
any
39:33 – 39:34
extra nitrogen.
39:35 – 39:38
So the color of the canopy has
39:38 – 39:39
been a major one.
39:39 – 39:40
Things like leaf size,
39:41 – 39:43
node length, I haven't seen as
39:43 – 39:44
much of.
39:45 – 39:47
But we are hoping, you know,
39:47 – 39:48
with
39:48 – 39:50
having now two full seasons of
39:50 – 39:51
the vines,
39:51 – 39:52
having their nutritional needs
39:52 – 39:53
met,
39:53 – 39:55
to see things like cluster
39:55 – 39:57
number change, hopefully
39:57 – 39:59
increase some of these things,
39:59 – 40:00
and even shorter
40:00 – 40:02
internode spacing.
40:02 – 40:03
We hope to see that.
40:04 – 40:05
I would add, though, Jake, that
40:05 – 40:07
there are some points that we
40:07 – 40:08
were walking the vineyard this
40:08 – 40:09
year where we were almost
40:09 – 40:11
feeling like the leaves were
40:11 – 40:12
thicker and glossier.
40:14 – 40:17
And it felt like there's more
40:17 – 40:18
substance there.
40:18 – 40:19
It's almost like the cell walls
40:19 – 40:20
were thicker.
40:20 – 40:21
when you touch them.
40:22 – 40:23
They sort of crumbled them.
40:23 – 40:25
Yeah, they snapped a little bit
40:25 – 40:25
more.
40:26 – 40:28
So, you know, that's just, and
40:28 – 40:29
you know, we had a very mild
40:29 – 40:30
growing season this year though,
40:30 – 40:31
too, without a lot of heat
40:31 – 40:32
events and heat stress.
40:32 – 40:35
So again, need more,
40:36 – 40:37
need more data over more years,
40:38 – 40:40
but at the same time, I feel
40:40 – 40:41
like you're definitely seeing a
40:41 – 40:42
physical response within,
40:43 – 40:45
in some ways within the plants.
40:47 – 40:49
Yeah. And I can't wait for my
40:49 – 40:50
quip about the powdery mildew
40:50 – 40:51
earlier.
40:51 – 40:53
I can't wait for things
40:54 – 40:55
to get through the regulatory
40:55 – 40:56
channels of you to be able to
40:56 – 40:57
use pinyon out there, because
40:57 – 40:59
what we're observing with pinyon
40:59 – 41:01
is you're going to be able to
41:01 – 41:02
kiss your powdery mildew
41:02 – 41:03
challenges goodbye
41:04 – 41:06
simply as a reflection of
41:06 – 41:07
changing the microbiome and the
41:07 – 41:10
plant's immune system response
41:10 – 41:12
so strongly. So I can't wait for
41:12 – 41:12
you to see that.
41:13 – 41:14
I mean, that would be an
41:14 – 41:15
absolute game changer for the
41:15 – 41:16
wine industry.
41:16 – 41:17
I think there's something like
41:17 – 41:18
eighty five percent of
41:18 – 41:20
pesticides applied to the grape
41:20 – 41:21
industry are for powdery mildew.
41:22 – 41:24
So whether that's organic,
41:25 – 41:26
whether that's organics and
41:26 – 41:28
sulfur and solid oil and stuff
41:28 – 41:29
like that, or whether it's
41:29 – 41:30
conventional systemic.
41:30 – 41:32
So it would be you know, that's
41:32 – 41:34
that's a real a real potential
41:34 – 41:35
change.
41:36 – 41:38
So along with these changes in
41:38 – 41:40
canopy color and disease and
41:40 – 41:42
insect resistance, I think the
41:42 – 41:43
obvious question, particularly
41:43 – 41:45
for a wine grape grower, is have
41:45 – 41:47
there been any changes?
41:48 – 41:49
I have
41:49 – 41:51
two questions. How has the
41:51 – 41:54
quality and the terroir of your
41:54 – 41:57
wine changed over the last
41:57 – 41:59
decade plus, but also in the
41:59 – 41:59
last
41:59 – 42:00
couple of years, have more
42:00 – 42:01
accelerated changes?
42:03 – 42:04
Yeah, I mean, I think the
42:04 – 42:06
quality has, I feel like,
42:06 – 42:08
increased significantly in part
42:08 – 42:10
because we just weather heat
42:10 – 42:11
events better.
42:12 – 42:13
And I think that there's just
42:13 – 42:15
more resilience and that, you
42:15 – 42:16
know, as we kind of talked about
42:16 – 42:17
earlier without like,
42:18 – 42:19
you know, when we don't have as
42:19 – 42:20
much reflected heat in the
42:20 – 42:22
vineyards, the vines don't get
42:22 – 42:23
as stressed out and they don't
42:23 – 42:25
get as water stressed.
42:26 – 42:28
And the result is that we can
42:28 – 42:29
kind of slow down ripening and
42:29 – 42:32
sugar accumulation for us.
42:32 – 42:33
You know, if we have a really
42:33 – 42:35
hot August, which is when the
42:35 – 42:37
vine is really sugar loading for
42:37 – 42:38
the most part, like,
42:38 – 42:40
you know, sometimes we see what
42:40 – 42:42
happens where we get, you know,
42:42 – 42:44
sugar in advance of flavor,
42:44 – 42:46
because we're looking at other
42:46 – 42:48
physical factors like seed
42:48 – 42:49
browning,
42:49 – 42:50
rachis thickness,
42:51 – 42:54
like all these other elements
42:54 – 42:55
that we look at.
42:56 – 42:57
And what I've really seen over
42:57 – 42:59
the last eight to 10 years, and
42:59 – 43:00
I think it's been
43:00 – 43:03
extra so the last couple of
43:03 – 43:04
years, is we're seeing
43:05 – 43:07
physiological development and
43:07 – 43:09
incredible flavor development at
43:09 – 43:10
lower potential alcohols.
43:10 – 43:12
And the vines are also holding
43:12 – 43:13
on to their natural acidity
43:13 – 43:14
better.
43:14 – 43:15
So that makes for a better
43:15 – 43:16
fermentation.
43:16 – 43:19
And that also makes for higher
43:19 – 43:20
quality.
43:20 – 43:21
Because here in California, we
43:21 – 43:22
have a lot of sun.
43:22 – 43:23
We're kind of known for making
43:23 – 43:25
high -octane sort of more
43:25 – 43:26
alcoholic wines.
43:26 – 43:27
And so anything that we can do
43:27 – 43:29
in our vineyards to kind of
43:29 – 43:31
combat that naturally is a
43:31 – 43:32
really good thing.
43:33 – 43:35
Can you translate that for a non
43:35 – 43:37
-wine grape fermenter?
43:37 – 43:38
I'm not even quite clear on what
43:38 – 43:39
it is you're...
43:39 – 43:40
So when you talk about high
43:40 – 43:41
alcohol, what is that a
43:41 – 43:42
reflection of from a
43:42 – 43:43
biochemistry perspective and
43:43 – 43:45
what does that mean from a
43:45 – 43:46
quality?
43:46 – 43:49
Yeah, so really the alcohol
43:49 – 43:50
percentage is sort of based on
43:50 – 43:52
how much sugar comes in with the
43:52 – 43:54
grape. And at some point you get
43:54 – 43:55
to a point where there's so much
43:55 – 43:56
sugar that you will not be able
43:56 – 43:59
to ferment it dry.
43:59 – 44:00
And then in the winery, that's
44:00 – 44:01
when you do things like add
44:01 – 44:03
water or tartaric acid to
44:03 – 44:04
supplement,
44:05 – 44:06
which is something we try to
44:06 – 44:07
avoid because we feel like that
44:07 – 44:09
dilutes quality.
44:10 – 44:11
So really yeast kind of have a
44:11 – 44:14
maximum fermentation capacity of
44:14 – 44:16
about 16 to 16 .5 % alcohol,
44:17 – 44:20
which is quite high by sort of
44:20 – 44:21
worldwide standards.
44:22 – 44:23
I'd say on average red wine is
44:23 – 44:27
about 13 to 13 .5 % alcohol and
44:27 – 44:29
white is 12 to 13 %
44:29 – 44:30
alcohol.
44:32 – 44:33
But, you know, in California,
44:33 – 44:34
it's, you know, it's not
44:34 – 44:37
uncommon to see wines over 15 %
44:37 – 44:38
alcohol. But what that does
44:38 – 44:41
oftentimes is if you don't have
44:41 – 44:43
balance, it just makes the wine
44:43 – 44:46
taste fiery. It makes it taste
44:46 – 44:46
hot.
44:46 – 44:47
It makes it taste sort of
44:47 – 44:49
unpleasant. And so really one of
44:49 – 44:51
the key factors when making high
44:51 – 44:54
quality wine is finding balance
44:54 – 44:56
between the acid profile,
44:56 – 44:57
the tannin and the structure,
44:57 – 44:59
which is all the polyphenolics
44:59 – 45:02
and anthocyanins, and the
45:02 – 45:04
sort of feeling of fruit weight
45:04 – 45:06
in the wine.
45:07 – 45:08
So, you know, for us,
45:08 – 45:10
We are always trying to make
45:10 – 45:11
wines that have great balance
45:11 – 45:13
and great density, but aren't
45:13 – 45:15
particularly alcoholic.
45:16 – 45:17
I'm just going to open it up
45:17 – 45:18
more broadly.
45:19 – 45:21
What important topics
45:21 – 45:22
or what important things have
45:22 – 45:24
you observed as your vineyards
45:24 – 45:25
have regenerated that we haven't
45:25 – 45:26
talked about yet?
45:26 – 45:27
What were some of the really
45:27 – 45:28
memorable moments for you?
45:31 – 45:32
I mean, I think maybe when we
45:32 – 45:34
started doing Haney tests, which
45:34 – 45:35
we've only started doing for the
45:35 – 45:37
last couple of years, and seeing
45:37 – 45:39
the amount of biological
45:39 – 45:40
improvement
45:41 – 45:42
from grazing compared to blocks
45:42 – 45:44
that we did not graze, that was
45:44 – 45:45
really eye -opening.
45:46 – 45:47
After just a couple years of
45:47 – 45:48
grazing,
45:48 – 45:51
biology was four times the level
45:51 – 45:53
of areas of the vineyard that we
45:53 – 45:53
had not grazed.
45:55 – 45:57
That's based on CO2 burst.
45:58 – 45:59
CO2 respiration is what's
45:59 – 46:00
increasing.
46:00 – 46:02
Was that with identical cover
46:02 – 46:03
crop management?
46:04 – 46:04
Yes.
46:04 – 46:05
yeah, so this would have been
46:05 – 46:07
like a purely vegetative cover
46:07 – 46:09
cropping crimping and then the
46:09 – 46:11
same thing but with high
46:11 – 46:11
-intensity grazing.
46:12 – 46:14
And actually the vineyard that
46:14 – 46:16
had less respiration had been
46:16 – 46:18
under crimping for longer, but
46:19 – 46:21
the introduction of sheep
46:21 – 46:23
really seemed to push
46:23 – 46:25
respiration and that was across
46:25 – 46:26
a few different block examples.
46:28 – 46:30
Yeah, and I think playing on
46:30 – 46:31
that, what's been really
46:31 – 46:33
surprising, too, is it's given
46:33 – 46:35
us confidence to rethink how we
46:35 – 46:38
develop young vineyards, in that
46:38 – 46:40
we now have blocks that we're
46:40 – 46:43
just planting that we are
46:43 – 46:45
putting immediately into organic
46:45 – 46:46
non -till,
46:46 – 46:48
which is pretty,
46:49 – 46:51
sort of contradicts what the
46:51 – 46:53
very standard treatment is in
46:53 – 46:54
the industry, where typically
46:54 – 46:56
it's like you plant young vines
46:56 – 46:58
and you try to, via tillage and
46:58 – 46:59
herbicide, eliminate all
46:59 – 47:00
competition.
47:01 – 47:02
And we've kind of gone the
47:02 – 47:04
opposite direction, and it's
47:04 – 47:05
been really fascinating to see
47:05 – 47:07
how verdant and healthy the
47:07 – 47:10
canopies have been, and also how
47:10 – 47:11
good the quality has been, and
47:11 – 47:13
also the fact that it's quite
47:13 – 47:14
economic.
47:14 – 47:16
We're now just sort of moving
47:16 – 47:18
into full cropping, and we're
47:18 – 47:20
going to be getting four to four
47:20 – 47:21
and a half tons per acre on
47:21 – 47:23
these blocks, which for us is
47:23 – 47:24
quite good.
47:24 – 47:25
And at what age?
47:27 – 47:29
So that would be on fifth and
47:29 – 47:30
sixth leaf.
47:31 – 47:33
And are you seeing those vines
47:33 – 47:34
come into production earlier
47:34 – 47:34
than they would have
47:34 – 47:35
historically or is still a
47:35 – 47:36
similar timeline?
47:38 – 47:40
A similar timeline to what would
47:40 – 47:41
be a standard program.
47:42 – 47:43
We also
47:43 – 47:46
have the goal of those blocks to
47:46 – 47:48
convert them to dry farming
47:48 – 47:50
eventually, because that's, I
47:50 – 47:51
think, one of the factors in
47:51 – 47:52
California we really need to
47:52 – 47:54
think about when we kind of
47:54 – 47:55
think about the core of
47:55 – 47:56
sustainability.
47:56 – 47:57
You have to think about which
47:57 – 47:58
resources are the most scarce
47:58 – 48:02
and water is scarce in
48:02 – 48:03
California at times.
48:04 – 48:07
So I think what we're so excited
48:07 – 48:09
about is we basically we dropped
48:09 – 48:10
fruit from one additional year
48:10 – 48:12
to really push root growth.
48:13 – 48:14
But I think we're going to be
48:14 – 48:16
able to because we built soil
48:16 – 48:17
organic matter and we built
48:17 – 48:19
biology, I think it's going to
48:19 – 48:21
expedite the process of us being
48:21 – 48:23
able to wean those vines off of
48:24 – 48:25
water and still have them have
48:25 – 48:27
very happy and productive lives.
48:29 – 48:31
And that's a very exciting thing
48:31 – 48:32
for us to see because it's
48:32 – 48:35
almost allows us to do it all at
48:35 – 48:37
once rather than develop the
48:37 – 48:39
vineyard and then undo all the
48:39 – 48:41
effects of the tillage via cover
48:41 – 48:42
crops and crimping.
48:42 – 48:43
And then so it like sort of
48:43 – 48:44
shortens the timeline by
48:44 – 48:46
probably up to five years.
48:47 – 48:48
Wow.
48:50 – 48:52
Another interesting thing that
48:52 – 48:53
we didn't mention, I think, on
48:53 – 48:55
young vines is we're, just from
48:55 – 48:57
a heterogeneity standpoint,
48:58 – 49:00
is we're actually taking a
49:00 – 49:01
lesson from the old vines, which
49:01 – 49:02
I don't even know if Morgan
49:02 – 49:04
mentioned, but all of those old
49:04 – 49:05
vine vineyards that are so
49:05 – 49:06
genetically diverse are actually
49:06 – 49:07
field blended.
49:09 – 49:11
all of those different varieties
49:11 – 49:12
that Morgan was pointing out,
49:12 – 49:14
they're often in the same block.
49:14 – 49:16
So we have blocks we call
49:16 – 49:16
Zinfandel,
49:17 – 49:19
but are actually 28, 29
49:19 – 49:21
different varieties all mixed
49:21 – 49:22
together.
49:22 – 49:23
And we pick that all at once.
49:23 – 49:25
We ferment it all at once.
49:25 – 49:28
And that's very, very much not
49:28 – 49:30
the norm in the wine industry,
49:30 – 49:32
but it was the norm in the 1880s
49:32 – 49:34
and 1890s.
49:34 – 49:35
So
49:37 – 49:39
We are actually planting young
49:39 – 49:41
vineyards as mixed variety as
49:41 – 49:42
well.
49:42 – 49:43
Some of those are the
49:43 – 49:44
traditional California field
49:44 – 49:46
blends of Zinfandel, Carignan,
49:46 – 49:47
Morved, Alicante,
49:48 – 49:50
and then others are, we're
49:50 – 49:52
taking some of Portugal's
49:52 – 49:54
traditional field blends, just
49:54 – 49:55
looking at another variety.
49:56 – 49:57
arid region and planting mixed
49:57 – 49:59
Portuguese varieties all
49:59 – 50:00
together.
50:00 – 50:02
And that's
50:03 – 50:05
just looking at the benefits of
50:05 – 50:07
diversity, even just at the
50:07 – 50:09
variety level.
50:10 – 50:12
What does that look like from a
50:12 – 50:13
management perspective?
50:14 – 50:16
Is there the need to
50:16 – 50:18
prune varieties differently or
50:18 – 50:20
manage varieties differently in
50:20 – 50:21
any way within the field?
50:21 – 50:22
Are you managing them largely
50:22 – 50:24
homogeneously across varieties?
50:25 – 50:26
So there's an element of that,
50:26 – 50:28
and so for instance, I'll take
50:28 – 50:30
the example of Carignan,
50:30 – 50:32
which is in a lot of old
50:32 – 50:33
vineyards, and it's a
50:34 – 50:37
beautifully vigorous variety,
50:37 – 50:39
very dry farmable, but it's
50:39 – 50:41
hyper prone to powdery mildew,
50:41 – 50:43
and in some ways it's overly
50:43 – 50:45
vigorous. So a lot of our crews,
50:45 – 50:46
and we have the benefit of
50:46 – 50:47
having
50:48 – 50:51
experienced crews at all of our
50:51 – 50:51
vineyards.
50:52 – 50:53
And
50:53 – 50:55
they're able to go through and
50:56 – 50:57
spot the carignon vines.
50:58 – 50:59
It doesn't take a lot of
50:59 – 51:00
knowledge to spot it once you
51:00 – 51:01
know what you're looking for.
51:02 – 51:03
And then when they're going
51:03 – 51:04
through and shoot thinning,
51:05 – 51:07
they'll take the basal leaves
51:07 – 51:08
off the carignon.
51:08 – 51:09
They'll do extra opening up,
51:09 – 51:11
because we know in three weeks
51:11 – 51:12
it's going to close back up
51:12 – 51:14
again because of the vigor.
51:14 – 51:16
So there is an element of that.
51:17 – 51:19
but and it's certainly not a
51:19 – 51:21
management style for more anal
51:21 – 51:23
retentive farmers in some way.
51:24 – 51:26
But in there are other ways that
51:26 – 51:28
it makes things easier.
51:28 – 51:29
And I think Morgan would agree
51:29 – 51:33
that having that diverse
51:33 – 51:35
varietal mix really smooths
51:35 – 51:36
vintage variation.
51:37 – 51:39
So in a really hot year, for
51:39 – 51:40
instance, Zinfandel can
51:40 – 51:43
sometimes shrivel and get really
51:43 – 51:45
resonated in under really hot
51:45 – 51:45
conditions.
51:46 – 51:47
Carinion will
51:48 – 51:50
weather any sort of hot weather.
51:50 – 51:51
It'll hold its acidity.
51:51 – 51:52
It'll hold its color.
51:53 – 51:56
Morved will never skyrocket in
51:56 – 51:57
sugar, for instance.
51:57 – 51:58
So in
51:59 – 52:00
hot years, some of these mixed
52:00 – 52:02
varieties will cover up some of
52:02 – 52:03
the issues with the dominant
52:03 – 52:05
variety and vice versa.
52:05 – 52:06
So you will get,
52:07 – 52:08
we think, kind of a higher
52:08 – 52:10
baseline quality year in and
52:10 – 52:12
year out by having a more
52:12 – 52:13
diverse
52:13 – 52:14
field.
52:15 – 52:16
But when you have this vine
52:16 – 52:17
diversity, are you...
52:19 – 52:22
Does this look like varieties
52:22 – 52:24
still planted together in rows
52:24 – 52:26
or just complete random
52:26 – 52:28
scattering of or somewhat
52:28 – 52:30
uniform distribution of a
52:30 – 52:31
variety across an entire field?
52:31 – 52:33
So Morgan wrote a whole thesis
52:33 – 52:36
about this, but in the old
52:36 – 52:37
vineyards it's a bit of a mix.
52:38 – 52:40
But there does seem to be, even
52:40 – 52:42
if it looks random, we actually
52:42 – 52:44
map all of our old vineyards
52:44 – 52:46
variety by variety and have them
52:46 – 52:47
all mapped out.
52:48 – 52:50
And you will find
52:51 – 52:54
reason in the patterns once you
52:54 – 52:55
map enough. Not at every
52:55 – 52:56
vineyard, but at a lot.
52:56 – 52:57
You will see like, oh, they
52:57 – 52:59
planted more carignon on the
52:59 – 53:01
edgier, lower fertility soils
53:01 – 53:03
because they knew carignon was
53:03 – 53:04
more vigorous.
53:04 – 53:06
Or they'll plant more ved in the
53:06 – 53:08
swales because it's a late
53:08 – 53:09
budder.
53:09 – 53:12
And so it will bud after frost
53:12 – 53:14
risk is over. So there was
53:14 – 53:17
definitely intention in the
53:17 – 53:19
centennial vineyards.
53:20 – 53:22
With our young vineyards, we
53:22 – 53:24
will plant not down the row
53:24 – 53:25
because you never want the
53:25 – 53:27
temptation to pick them
53:27 – 53:28
separately,
53:28 – 53:31
but instead we'll plant maybe on
53:31 – 53:32
the diagonal or have some sort
53:32 – 53:34
of pattern so we're kind of
53:34 – 53:36
aware of what's in there.
53:36 – 53:38
But even now we consider the
53:38 – 53:40
topography of the block when
53:40 – 53:41
we're planting young vines.
53:42 – 53:44
What's really fascinating is
53:44 – 53:44
like this practice
53:47 – 53:48
you know, the last 30 years of
53:48 – 53:50
sort of modern winemaking in
53:50 – 53:52
terms of wanting control and
53:52 – 53:54
then, you know, picking your
53:54 – 53:55
Cabernet separate from your
53:55 – 53:57
Merlot, from your Cab Franc, and
53:57 – 53:58
then blending those later.
53:59 – 53:59
But what's been really
53:59 – 54:01
fascinating is, and I love it
54:01 – 54:03
when things like this happen,
54:03 – 54:05
is that there's now a lot of
54:05 – 54:06
research that's been done
54:06 – 54:07
showing that when you actually
54:07 – 54:09
co -ferment different varieties
54:09 – 54:10
that have different levels of
54:10 – 54:12
color, that have different types
54:12 – 54:13
of phenolics, that have
54:13 – 54:14
different types of aromatics,
54:15 – 54:16
they actually will
54:16 – 54:18
polymerize with each other, they
54:18 – 54:19
will co -factor, they'll
54:19 – 54:20
stabilize aromatics.
54:21 – 54:22
So you actually can create much
54:22 – 54:24
greater complexity by having
54:24 – 54:26
more ingredients in the soup in
54:26 – 54:28
some ways than if you're just
54:28 – 54:29
were to take those exact same
54:29 – 54:30
varieties and ferment them
54:30 – 54:32
separately and then blend them
54:32 – 54:33
later.
54:33 – 54:34
So that part to me is just
54:34 – 54:35
always fascinating.
54:36 – 54:38
And so in some ways you kind of
54:38 – 54:41
have to seed control as a
54:41 – 54:42
winemaker.
54:42 – 54:43
And there's sort of like,
54:44 – 54:45
an element of almost picking on
54:45 – 54:47
gestalt, because not all the
54:47 – 54:48
varieties are going to be
54:48 – 54:49
perfectly ripe at the same time.
54:50 – 54:51
But you just kind of got to go
54:51 – 54:52
with be like, okay,
54:52 – 54:54
it looks good. And also, if you
54:54 – 54:55
really know your vineyard, you
54:55 – 54:56
also know when canopies start to
54:56 – 54:57
just look a little different
54:57 – 55:00
when leaves are turned ever so
55:00 – 55:01
slightly, and then you just be
55:01 – 55:03
like, okay, this vineyards done,
55:03 – 55:04
it's ready to for its fruit to
55:04 – 55:05
come off and then you
55:06 – 55:07
you pick it. And then that
55:07 – 55:08
doesn't even get into the really
55:08 – 55:11
fascinating element of how
55:11 – 55:12
plants communicate under the
55:12 – 55:13
soil with each other.
55:14 – 55:16
And, you know, that's a complete
55:16 – 55:18
an area of almost no research,
55:18 – 55:20
but I think is very fascinating.
55:21 – 55:22
And that was one of one of the
55:22 – 55:23
several things that you just
55:23 – 55:24
said are quite interesting.
55:25 – 55:27
But that is that is one
55:27 – 55:29
domain that
55:30 – 55:32
in small grains production,
55:32 – 55:33
wheat production now.
55:33 – 55:34
This is happening in the UK,
55:35 – 55:36
it's happening in Canada.
55:36 – 55:36
There's a number of growers here
55:36 – 55:39
in the US that I've been having
55:39 – 55:40
this
55:40 – 55:41
conversation with as well, where
55:41 – 55:45
they will co -mingle and plant
55:45 – 55:46
five different wheat varieties
55:46 – 55:47
that
55:47 – 55:49
have similar harvest windows,
55:50 – 55:51
and
55:51 – 55:53
they get greater disease
55:53 – 55:55
resistance, greater insect
55:55 – 55:57
resistance, and higher yields
55:57 – 55:59
than from any one of those
55:59 – 56:00
varieties alone.
56:01 – 56:02
And it's just like,
56:02 – 56:04
how do we explain that?
56:05 – 56:07
I mean, it's plant
56:07 – 56:08
communication, it's that quorum
56:08 – 56:10
sensing, it's that sharing of
56:10 – 56:11
resources and all these things
56:11 – 56:12
where these plants are truly
56:13 – 56:14
collaborating with each other
56:14 – 56:15
and perhaps
56:16 – 56:18
sharing immune
56:19 – 56:21
pathway secrets and other things
56:21 – 56:22
that we don't even know about
56:22 – 56:23
yet at this point.
56:24 – 56:25
They're sharing information with
56:25 – 56:26
each other.
56:26 – 56:27
Yeah,
56:26 – 56:27
it's the next frontier in
56:27 – 56:28
agriculture, I think.
56:31 – 56:32
I think
56:32 – 56:33
we barely
56:34 – 56:36
know what we don't know about
56:36 – 56:38
what's going on under the soil
56:38 – 56:39
in many ways. And so like, it's
56:39 – 56:41
just, you know, it's very
56:41 – 56:42
exciting.
56:43 – 56:44
What do you see as the frontier?
56:45 – 56:46
What are the new things that
56:46 – 56:47
you're working on?
56:47 – 56:49
What are the ways that you want
56:49 – 56:52
to see your vineyard continue to
56:52 – 56:52
progress and grow?
56:52 – 56:54
What do you think you might be
56:54 – 56:55
doing differently or
56:55 – 56:57
experiencing in the near future?
56:59 – 57:00
It's a big question.
57:00 – 57:01
I mean, there's a, there's a
57:01 – 57:02
number of things.
57:03 – 57:05
So, for us, I think, you know,
57:05 – 57:07
right now we just graze with, we
57:07 – 57:08
do mob grazing with sheep,
57:08 – 57:10
adapted paddock grazing, which
57:10 – 57:11
is great.
57:11 – 57:13
But to me, I'd be really
57:13 – 57:14
interested. We have a neighbor
57:14 – 57:15
who actually
57:15 – 57:17
It's a smaller operation so they
57:17 – 57:18
can do it, but they literally
57:18 – 57:19
will move,
57:19 – 57:21
you know, like, eight or nine
57:21 – 57:23
different types of animals at a
57:23 – 57:24
time so when you're looking
57:24 – 57:25
about creating a greater
57:25 – 57:28
diversity of biology in your
57:28 – 57:29
grazing what that looks like and
57:29 – 57:30
then,
57:30 – 57:31
you know, for me it'd be
57:31 – 57:33
fascinating if there's ways to
57:33 – 57:34
integrate.
57:35 – 57:37
revenue streams into the
57:37 – 57:39
vineyard sort of year round,
57:39 – 57:42
whether that's cattle or whether
57:42 – 57:44
it's sheep or something else in
57:44 – 57:47
terms of just trying to figure
57:47 – 57:48
out a way to diversify that
57:48 – 57:50
element while also being of
57:50 – 57:53
benefit to the land.
57:53 – 57:55
I think that's a big part of it.
57:56 – 57:58
And to me, just broadly from an
57:58 – 57:59
industry standpoint,
57:59 – 58:01
I think it's really
58:02 – 58:04
important to talk about these
58:04 – 58:07
practices and to show what we
58:07 – 58:08
think we've gotten right and
58:08 – 58:09
what we've gotten wrong with
58:09 – 58:12
other people. Because just in
58:12 – 58:13
terms of selling wine and the
58:13 – 58:15
way that the wine industry
58:15 – 58:16
appears to people on the
58:16 – 58:17
outside,
58:18 – 58:19
you know,
58:19 – 58:20
bottles of wine can sell for
58:21 – 58:23
you know, $50, $100, $200, $500
58:23 – 58:25
a bottle. You know, there's
58:25 – 58:27
margin there. So in some ways, I
58:27 – 58:29
feel like there's a
58:29 – 58:30
responsibility within the wine
58:30 – 58:32
industry to try to be moving
58:32 – 58:34
forward the conversation about
58:34 – 58:38
responsible agriculture and
58:38 – 58:40
that element. And I feel like
58:40 – 58:43
there's more steam gaining as
58:43 – 58:45
that is going on right now.
58:45 – 58:46
And I think that, you know,
58:46 – 58:48
that's, you know, I think that's
58:48 – 58:49
something I'm
58:49 – 58:51
That's both exciting and also
58:51 – 58:52
absolutely necessary,
58:53 – 58:54
particularly as we try to sell
58:54 – 58:56
to a whole new generation of
58:56 – 58:58
consumers that are coming up
58:58 – 58:59
that really care a lot more
58:59 – 59:01
about what they put into their
59:01 – 59:02
body. And the really cool thing
59:02 – 59:04
about wine is you can really get
59:04 – 59:06
all the way upstream of
59:07 – 59:08
what you put into your glass in
59:08 – 59:11
terms of who grew it, how it was
59:11 – 59:12
grown, the ethics of it,
59:13 – 59:15
the vine age, all of that stuff.
59:15 – 59:18
And so the complexity is scary,
59:18 – 59:19
but at the same time, it's also
59:19 – 59:22
what makes it so fascinating.
59:22 – 59:23
So it's kind of like integrating
59:23 – 59:26
the agricultural element into
59:26 – 59:27
that conversation.
59:29 – 59:30
I find so interesting about our
59:30 – 59:31
conversation. I came into this
59:31 – 59:33
conversation kind of like
59:33 – 59:35
I've heard some large numbers
59:35 – 59:38
about how dramatically wine
59:38 – 59:40
consumption is dropping and how
59:40 – 59:41
there is this growing need for
59:41 – 59:43
differentiation and how
59:44 – 59:46
there is this intense interest
59:46 – 59:48
in adopting region of
59:48 – 59:50
agriculture on scale because of
59:50 – 59:51
the need to differentiate.
59:52 – 59:55
But what stood out to me in our
59:55 – 59:57
conversation is
59:58 – 59:59
the tremendous heat resilience
59:59 – 1:00:00
and the climactic resilience
1:00:00 – 1:00:02
that you're experiencing with
1:00:02 – 1:00:04
these different management
1:00:04 – 1:00:05
practices and
1:00:06 – 1:00:08
how I think we should reasonably
1:00:08 – 1:00:09
expect that to become the
1:00:09 – 1:00:11
foundational requirement into
1:00:11 – 1:00:12
the future.
1:00:12 – 1:00:14
Like we are going to need heat
1:00:14 – 1:00:16
resilience on a regular basis
1:00:16 – 1:00:17
going forward. We already have
1:00:18 – 1:00:20
a pattern, a recent pattern that
1:00:20 – 1:00:21
we can observe that that's going
1:00:21 – 1:00:22
to be the case.
1:00:23 – 1:00:24
Absolutely.
1:00:23 – 1:00:24
And it really,
1:00:26 – 1:00:27
you know, there's something
1:00:27 – 1:00:28
that, you know,
1:00:29 – 1:00:30
there's
1:00:30 – 1:00:31
As you sort of talked about the
1:00:31 – 1:00:32
beginning, there's incredible
1:00:32 – 1:00:34
opportunity to change people's
1:00:34 – 1:00:36
minds by showing them how these
1:00:36 – 1:00:38
practices work and that they do
1:00:38 – 1:00:39
work.
1:00:38 – 1:00:40
But it is also very frustrating
1:00:40 – 1:00:43
when you drive down Highway 29
1:00:43 – 1:00:45
in Napa, which is surrounded by
1:00:45 – 1:00:46
some of the most expensive
1:00:46 – 1:00:48
vineyard land in the world and
1:00:48 – 1:00:49
everything,
1:00:49 – 1:00:50
there's not a single thing
1:00:50 – 1:00:51
growing on the floor of
1:00:51 – 1:00:52
vineyards.
1:00:53 – 1:00:54
Um, so there's, you know, a lot
1:00:54 – 1:00:56
of work to be done then, or sort
1:00:56 – 1:00:58
of like, and I think Evo from
1:00:58 – 1:00:59
Gerga Chills Chad talked about
1:00:59 – 1:01:01
it a bit, but also sort of like,
1:01:01 – 1:01:02
um,
1:01:02 – 1:01:04
sort of demonstrative grazing,
1:01:04 – 1:01:06
but without any real, um.
1:01:07 – 1:01:08
theory behind it so you just
1:01:08 – 1:01:10
sort of like put out a couple of
1:01:10 – 1:01:11
sheep and I mean,
1:01:11 – 1:01:13
most cynically I see vineyards
1:01:13 – 1:01:14
that you know have just sprayed
1:01:14 – 1:01:16
herbicide and then they have
1:01:16 – 1:01:17
sheep grazing that herbicide
1:01:17 – 1:01:20
sprayed soil and it's just like,
1:01:21 – 1:01:22
you know, but and then they
1:01:22 – 1:01:23
posted on Instagram and it's
1:01:23 – 1:01:24
like,
1:01:24 – 1:01:25
as we
1:01:24 – 1:01:26
know, grazing can do incredible
1:01:26 – 1:01:28
damage, but it could also do
1:01:28 – 1:01:29
incredible good.
1:01:29 – 1:01:30
It just has to be deployed
1:01:30 – 1:01:33
properly. So also just educating
1:01:33 – 1:01:34
people about that,
1:01:35 – 1:01:37
that part of things as well.
1:01:37 – 1:01:38
So it's, you know, there's just
1:01:38 – 1:01:39
a lot there's
1:01:39 – 1:01:41
there's many lifetimes of work
1:01:41 – 1:01:43
to be done to progress the
1:01:43 – 1:01:44
conversation, I think.
1:01:46 – 1:01:47
Jake,
1:01:48 – 1:01:49
there's I
1:01:49 – 1:01:51
have a feeling that I could have
1:01:51 – 1:01:53
a long conversation with you
1:01:53 – 1:01:54
just
1:01:54 – 1:01:55
drawing all the things out that
1:01:55 – 1:01:57
you're holding in reserve here.
1:01:57 – 1:01:59
But I'm realizing at the very
1:01:59 – 1:02:01
beginning of our conversation,
1:02:01 – 1:02:02
you mentioned this idea of
1:02:02 – 1:02:03
building biology from the top
1:02:03 – 1:02:05
down with foliar applications,
1:02:05 – 1:02:06
and we never came back to that.
1:02:07 – 1:02:08
We touched on it a few times,
1:02:08 – 1:02:10
but we never dug into that in
1:02:10 – 1:02:11
detail.
1:02:11 – 1:02:12
So
1:02:12 – 1:02:14
you can follow on to any of
1:02:14 – 1:02:15
Morgan's comments that you would
1:02:15 – 1:02:16
like to, but I'd also love for
1:02:16 – 1:02:16
you to dig into that a little
1:02:16 – 1:02:18
bit of how you are dealing with
1:02:18 – 1:02:19
these dry land situations.
1:02:21 – 1:02:24
Right, so like I said, Evangelo
1:02:24 – 1:02:25
is our other. So we have bedrock
1:02:26 – 1:02:27
Vineyard in Sonoma, Evangelo in
1:02:27 – 1:02:29
Contra Costa County, and those
1:02:29 – 1:02:31
are two pillars of estate
1:02:31 – 1:02:33
vineyards, and they could not be
1:02:33 – 1:02:33
more different.
1:02:33 – 1:02:35
So like I said, Evangelo has
1:02:36 – 1:02:36
almost no rain.
1:02:37 – 1:02:38
There's no water.
1:02:38 – 1:02:40
The only water we have is for is
1:02:40 – 1:02:42
for spraying with a solar well.
1:02:44 – 1:02:45
So there
1:02:46 – 1:02:47
we've been.
1:02:48 – 1:02:49
We just decided that we are
1:02:49 – 1:02:51
going to go all in with tracking
1:02:51 – 1:02:54
SAP consistently and and
1:02:54 – 1:02:55
addressing things and just in
1:02:55 – 1:02:57
seeing where that takes us.
1:02:58 – 1:03:00
because we do not have a lot of
1:03:00 – 1:03:03
avenues to improve
1:03:04 – 1:03:06
soil like that with the
1:03:06 – 1:03:08
limitations of that system.
1:03:09 – 1:03:10
So it's
1:03:11 – 1:03:12
very interesting to see, I mean,
1:03:12 – 1:03:14
so we see all these increases in
1:03:14 – 1:03:16
canopy health and
1:03:16 – 1:03:18
photosynthesis, even just in the
1:03:18 – 1:03:20
sugar levels on top of that.
1:03:21 – 1:03:24
And to know that then the vine
1:03:24 – 1:03:26
has the excess energy to
1:03:26 – 1:03:30
be improving the microbiome
1:03:30 – 1:03:31
around its roots,
1:03:31 – 1:03:33
it's getting to a place that we
1:03:33 – 1:03:34
could not get with a tractor.
1:03:36 – 1:03:39
We're able to give the vines the
1:03:39 – 1:03:41
ability to essentially bespoke
1:03:41 – 1:03:43
their microbiome when they did
1:03:43 – 1:03:44
not have the energy
1:03:45 – 1:03:46
that they had before.
1:03:47 – 1:03:48
And the same thing is true at
1:03:48 – 1:03:50
Bedrock, where we are inputting
1:03:50 – 1:03:52
biology and improving, but the
1:03:52 – 1:03:54
main thing that's happening is
1:03:54 – 1:03:56
that the vines have
1:03:57 – 1:03:59
the energy and the tools to
1:03:59 – 1:04:01
foster
1:04:01 – 1:04:03
their own microbiome in a way
1:04:03 – 1:04:04
they haven't
1:04:04 – 1:04:05
in the past.
1:04:07 – 1:04:07
What
1:04:07 – 1:04:09
indicators are you observing of
1:04:09 – 1:04:10
that?
1:04:14 – 1:04:15
That's a good question.
1:04:17 – 1:04:19
And I would love to know more
1:04:19 – 1:04:20
about what
1:04:20 – 1:04:21
indicators we could be looking
1:04:21 – 1:04:23
at, because it's not that easy
1:04:23 – 1:04:26
to mine your vine roots and dig
1:04:26 – 1:04:27
them up and look.
1:04:27 – 1:04:29
We do know from our cover crops
1:04:29 – 1:04:31
in the soil that we are seeing
1:04:31 – 1:04:34
rhizosheathing and things that
1:04:34 – 1:04:36
we have never seen before, and
1:04:36 – 1:04:36
that's from
1:04:37 – 1:04:39
more diverse mixes and then,
1:04:40 – 1:04:42
of course, better inoculants and
1:04:42 – 1:04:43
a better
1:04:43 – 1:04:45
better seed coatings and all
1:04:45 – 1:04:45
these things.
1:04:47 – 1:04:49
But I would say the biggest
1:04:49 – 1:04:52
indicator that we get is there's
1:04:52 – 1:04:54
plenty of evidence of natural
1:04:54 – 1:04:56
nutrient cycling of things
1:04:56 – 1:04:58
increasing in the vine that we
1:04:58 – 1:05:01
did not add directly.
1:05:02 – 1:05:04
So that would
1:05:05 – 1:05:06
be one
1:05:06 – 1:05:07
of the biggest things I've seen.
1:05:07 – 1:05:09
And that's even more prevalent
1:05:09 – 1:05:10
at Evangelo, which is dry
1:05:10 – 1:05:11
farmed,
1:05:11 – 1:05:13
where we know all we're giving
1:05:13 – 1:05:14
is these foliars and we're
1:05:14 – 1:05:15
seeing
1:05:14 – 1:05:16
increases in things like
1:05:16 – 1:05:18
phosphorus and these things that
1:05:18 – 1:05:19
we are not applying.
1:05:20 – 1:05:21
So
1:05:21 – 1:05:22
we
1:05:23 – 1:05:25
imagine that that's part of
1:05:25 – 1:05:25
what's going on.
1:05:26 – 1:05:27
Yeah.
1:05:28 – 1:05:30
You know, the large
1:05:30 – 1:05:32
part of the thrill and the
1:05:32 – 1:05:34
beauty of working with these
1:05:34 – 1:05:35
biological ecosystems, we're now
1:05:36 – 1:05:39
in this particular moment in
1:05:39 – 1:05:40
time, well, it's been true for
1:05:40 – 1:05:41
the last half a dozen years,
1:05:42 – 1:05:44
Input costs are at an all -time
1:05:44 – 1:05:46
high relative to fertilizer
1:05:46 – 1:05:47
costs and so forth.
1:05:47 – 1:05:48
And
1:05:48 – 1:05:50
there's, it seems there are
1:05:50 – 1:05:51
constantly new people
1:05:51 – 1:05:52
discovering
1:05:53 – 1:05:56
the power of biology to release
1:05:56 – 1:05:57
the nutrients that are already
1:05:57 – 1:05:58
present in their soil profile.
1:05:58 – 1:05:59
And of course, if you're growing
1:05:59 – 1:06:00
wine grapes, you have the
1:06:00 – 1:06:01
capacity to go down to a depth
1:06:01 – 1:06:03
that's measured in feet or yards
1:06:03 – 1:06:04
or meters.
1:06:06 – 1:06:07
And it
1:06:09 – 1:06:10
is so,
1:06:11 – 1:06:13
it's so much fun and so
1:06:13 – 1:06:14
enjoyable to see that whole
1:06:14 – 1:06:17
ecosystem just begin working and
1:06:17 – 1:06:19
you start getting results that
1:06:19 – 1:06:21
are greater than any of those
1:06:21 – 1:06:22
that you would have imagined or
1:06:22 – 1:06:23
forecasted.
1:06:23 – 1:06:25
And I think that's in this
1:06:25 – 1:06:26
particular environment that we
1:06:26 – 1:06:28
find ourselves in is that that
1:06:28 – 1:06:29
opportunity and
1:06:30 – 1:06:31
that optimism and that
1:06:31 – 1:06:32
conviction that this can happen
1:06:32 – 1:06:33
and does happen
1:06:34 – 1:06:37
is the encouragement and the
1:06:37 – 1:06:38
direction that many growers need
1:06:38 – 1:06:39
to go in.
1:06:42 – 1:06:43
Yeah, I agree completely.
1:06:45 – 1:06:47
I've already asked you what
1:06:47 – 1:06:48
important topics we should go
1:06:48 – 1:06:49
into and I really,
1:06:50 – 1:06:52
I feel the need that we need to
1:06:52 – 1:06:53
have another follow up
1:06:53 – 1:06:54
conversation because there's
1:06:54 – 1:06:55
other conversations, other
1:06:55 – 1:06:56
discussions I'd love to dive
1:06:56 – 1:06:57
into. But I
1:06:58 – 1:06:59
want to be respectful of your
1:06:59 – 1:07:00
time and of our audience's time.
1:07:00 – 1:07:01
So I want to say thank you for
1:07:01 – 1:07:02
being here.
1:07:02 – 1:07:02
Thank you for the work that
1:07:02 – 1:07:03
you're doing. Thank you for
1:07:03 – 1:07:04
sharing your wisdom and your
1:07:04 – 1:07:05
experiences.
1:07:06 – 1:07:08
And where can people find out
1:07:08 – 1:07:10
more about your work?
1:07:10 – 1:07:11
dig in deeper?
1:07:12 – 1:07:13
Yeah. So
1:07:14 – 1:07:16
if anything, I have a writing
1:07:16 – 1:07:18
problem. So if you go to our
1:07:18 – 1:07:20
website, which is bedrockwineco
1:07:20 – 1:07:22
.com, there's a lot of material
1:07:22 – 1:07:24
there ranging from the wines
1:07:24 – 1:07:26
that we make to the history of
1:07:26 – 1:07:28
wine in California to our
1:07:28 – 1:07:28
farming.
1:07:29 – 1:07:31
There's some really great quotes
1:07:31 – 1:07:32
from Jake on there as well, that
1:07:32 – 1:07:34
I think really cut to the core
1:07:34 – 1:07:35
of what we're, what we're
1:07:35 – 1:07:36
looking at.
1:07:36 – 1:07:38
We also have our own podcast
1:07:38 – 1:07:39
called Bedrock Wine
1:07:39 – 1:07:40
Conversations.
1:07:40 – 1:07:41
And,
1:07:41 – 1:07:43
you know, we just got, you know,
1:07:43 – 1:07:44
Regenerative Organics certified.
1:07:44 – 1:07:45
And
1:07:45 – 1:07:46
so we did a whole pod on like
1:07:46 – 1:07:49
what that process looked like
1:07:49 – 1:07:50
and what that entailed, because
1:07:50 – 1:07:51
there's definitely some,
1:07:51 – 1:07:53
you know, hoops to jump through
1:07:53 – 1:07:54
and things like that.
1:07:54 – 1:07:57
And we also have other people on
1:07:57 – 1:07:59
that we consider to be very very
1:07:59 – 1:08:01
important in terms of leading
1:08:01 – 1:08:03
the conversations around
1:08:03 – 1:08:05
regenerative viticulture within
1:08:05 – 1:08:07
the wine industry, specifically
1:08:07 – 1:08:09
people like Jason Jardine at
1:08:09 – 1:08:11
Hansel and folks like that.
1:08:11 – 1:08:13
So yeah, so you can find us
1:08:13 – 1:08:15
there. And then, you know, I'm
1:08:15 – 1:08:17
still on social media somehow.
1:08:17 – 1:08:19
So you can find me on Instagram
1:08:19 – 1:08:19
as well. And
1:08:19 – 1:08:21
I'm usually just talking about
1:08:21 – 1:08:23
geeky things about grapes.
1:08:23 – 1:08:24
So
1:08:23 – 1:08:25
yeah. And
1:08:25 – 1:08:27
Jake is on Instagram as well.
1:08:28 – 1:08:28
And
1:08:28 – 1:08:29
And you can always email us.
1:08:31 – 1:08:31
All right. Well, thank you both.
1:08:32 – 1:08:32
Thanks for being here.
1:08:32 – 1:08:33
Thanks for your work.
1:08:33 – 1:08:34
And let's catch up soon.
1:08:34 – 1:08:35
Hopefully, I'll see you next
1:08:35 – 1:08:36
month.
1:08:36 – 1:08:37
Absolutely. Thank you so much.
1:08:38 – 1:08:39
Thank you so much for having us,
1:08:39 – 1:08:40
John.
1:08:40 – 1:08:40
The
1:08:40 – 1:08:42
team at AEA and I are dedicated
1:08:42 – 1:08:43
to bringing this show to you
1:08:43 – 1:08:44
because we believe that
1:08:44 – 1:08:46
knowledge and information is the
1:08:46 – 1:08:48
foundation of successful
1:08:48 – 1:08:49
regenerative systems.
1:08:49 – 1:08:52
At AEA, we believe that growing
1:08:52 – 1:08:53
better quality food and making
1:08:53 – 1:08:55
more money from your crops is
1:08:55 – 1:08:56
possible.
1:08:56 – 1:08:58
And since 2006, we've worked
1:08:58 – 1:08:59
with leading professional
1:08:59 – 1:09:00
growers to help them do just
1:09:00 – 1:09:01
that.
1:09:01 – 1:09:03
At AEA, we don't guess.
1:09:03 – 1:09:05
We test. We analyze.
1:09:05 – 1:09:06
and we provide recommendations
1:09:06 – 1:09:08
based on scientific data,
1:09:09 – 1:09:10
knowledge, and experience.
1:09:10 – 1:09:11
We've developed products that
1:09:11 – 1:09:13
are uniquely positioned to help
1:09:13 – 1:09:14
growers make more money with
1:09:14 – 1:09:15
regenerative agriculture.
1:09:16 – 1:09:17
If you are a professional grower
1:09:17 – 1:09:19
who believes in testing instead
1:09:19 – 1:09:20
of guessing,
1:09:20 – 1:09:22
someone who believes in a
1:09:22 – 1:09:23
better, more regenerative way to
1:09:23 – 1:09:24
grow,
1:09:24 – 1:09:26
visit advancingecoag .com and
1:09:26 – 1:09:28
contact us to see if AEA is
1:09:28 – 1:09:29
right for you.
