In this Podcast Extra episode, join John at Acres Eco Ag 2025, where he hosted a “Coffee with John Kempf” session, answering questions from the audience. In this episode, a wide range of topics are discussed, including:
The use of foliar-applied low-biuret urea to significantly reduce a crop’s total nitrogen requirement
The potential for amino acid forms of nitrogen to replace large amounts of conventional mineral nitrogen
Recommendations for conducting sap analysis every 7 to 10 days to identify nutrient needs
The necessity of using clean water free of carbonates, such as rainwater or reverse osmosis water, for effective foliar sprays.
AEA’s new product, Pinion, which stimulates the leaf microbiome and activates plant immune pathways.
Podcast Transcript
0:00 – 0:01
So the question was, what are my
0:01 – 0:03
thoughts on foliar -applied
0:03 – 0:03
urea,
0:04 – 0:05
melted urea,
0:05 – 0:07
as a replacement for soil
0:07 – 0:08
-applied nitrogen?
0:09 – 0:09
I love it.
0:10 – 0:11
I wish farmers would do a lot
0:11 – 0:13
more of it because their total
0:13 – 0:14
nitrogen requirement to grow a
0:14 – 0:15
crop would go down
0:14 – 0:16
substantially, it has beneficial
0:16 – 0:18
impacts on soil biology, and you
0:18 – 0:19
get very strong yield responses
0:19 – 0:20
from it. So
0:21 – 0:22
there's
0:22 – 0:23
lots of information about
0:23 – 0:24
melting urea online,
0:25 – 0:26
how to do it.
0:26 – 0:28
I'm not gonna go into detail on
0:28 – 0:29
that, but one thing I'll point
0:29 – 0:31
out that isn't common knowledge,
0:33 – 0:34
And that is you specifically
0:34 – 0:35
want a form of urea that is
0:35 – 0:37
referred to as low bi urea,
0:38 – 0:39
which means low biuret.
0:40 – 0:41
And
0:42 – 0:43
so
0:44 – 0:45
the if
0:46 – 0:49
if a grower asks me to make
0:49 – 0:51
nitrogen recommendations on
0:52 – 0:54
a corn crop, and I know nothing,
0:54 – 0:56
I have no context, I don't know
0:56 – 0:57
what the history is, I don't
0:57 – 0:59
know what the soil's ability is
0:59 – 1:00
to deliver nitrogen.
1:00 – 1:01
My preferred approach
1:02 – 1:03
is
1:04 – 1:05
to
1:05 – 1:07
apply 40
1:08 – 1:09
pounds
1:11 – 1:14
of nitrogen and 20 pounds of
1:14 – 1:15
sulfur, preferably in the form
1:15 – 1:16
of ammonium thiosulfate,
1:17 – 1:18
at or before planting,
1:19 – 1:20
and
1:20 – 1:22
wait to apply any additional
1:22 – 1:25
nitrogen until the need is
1:25 – 1:26
revealed by sap analysis, and
1:26 – 1:28
then either put on foliar
1:28 – 1:29
applications of urea,
1:29 – 1:31
or if that is not an option, to
1:31 – 1:32
put on side -dress nitrogen
1:32 – 1:33
applications.
1:35 – 1:37
So that initial push, the
1:37 – 1:38
reality is a
1:39 – 1:41
lot of the older corn genetics
1:42 – 1:44
had the ability to start strong
1:44 – 1:46
without that initial nitrogen
1:46 – 1:47
push, but a lot of modern
1:47 – 1:48
genetics don't.
1:48 – 1:49
They're very dependent on that
1:49 – 1:52
nitrogen application right
1:52 – 1:53
at the beginning.
1:54 – 1:56
And in terms of applications,
1:59 – 2:01
I've seen high as
2:02 – 2:05
three applications of 10 pounds,
2:05 – 2:06
the equivalent of 10 pounds of
2:06 – 2:07
dry urea
2:07 – 2:09
applied as a foliar over the
2:09 – 2:10
course of a season.
2:10 – 2:11
So that's 30 pounds of nitrogen,
2:11 – 2:12
or no,
2:12 – 2:13
15 pounds of nitrogen over the
2:13 – 2:14
course of a season.
2:15 – 2:17
And I've seen that replace as
2:17 – 2:19
much as 45 to 50 units of soil
2:19 – 2:20
applied nitrogen,
2:21 – 2:22
sometimes more, but those are
2:22 – 2:23
numbers that I'm comfortable
2:23 – 2:24
talking about.
2:25 – 2:26
The short answer is you can
2:26 – 2:28
dramatically reduce the nitrogen
2:28 – 2:29
requirement of the system
2:29 – 2:31
overall by applying that as a
2:31 – 2:32
foliar.
2:31 – 2:33
And corn responds very well to
2:33 – 2:34
urea applications.
2:35 – 2:37
Urea is about the best, it is
2:37 – 2:39
the best non -organic form of
2:39 – 2:40
nitrogen that you can apply as a
2:40 – 2:41
foliar,
2:40 – 2:41
in my opinion.
2:42 – 2:43
Does that answer your question?
2:43 – 2:44
All
2:44 – 2:45
right, yes.
2:50 – 2:50
Yeah,
2:58 – 3:00
so if I'm
3:00 – 3:01
understanding the question
3:01 – 3:02
correctly, the question is, what
3:02 – 3:03
are my thoughts on foliar
3:03 – 3:05
applying amino acid
3:05 – 3:07
forms of nitrogen as compared to
3:07 – 3:08
mineral forms of nitrogen and
3:08 – 3:10
the crop response they produce
3:10 – 3:10
and so forth. So
3:11 – 3:13
theoretically,
3:16 – 3:18
a pound of nitrogen coming from
3:18 – 3:20
amino acids can replace four to
3:20 – 3:22
five pounds of, in terms of crop
3:22 – 3:24
response and yield response,
3:24 – 3:25
will replace four to five pounds
3:25 – 3:26
of conventional mineral
3:26 – 3:28
nitrogen, either in ammonium or
3:28 – 3:29
nitrate form.
3:29 – 3:31
And this is why
3:31 – 3:33
in organic production,
3:34 – 3:35
Historically,
3:35 – 3:37
growers and agronomists have
3:37 – 3:38
been confused about applications
3:38 – 3:40
of liquid fish or something like
3:40 – 3:41
that, and they're putting on a
3:41 – 3:43
nitrogen quantity that is just a
3:43 – 3:44
fraction of
3:45 – 3:46
conventional nitrogen
3:46 – 3:47
applications, but they're still
3:47 – 3:48
producing very strong yield
3:48 – 3:49
responses. And it is because the
3:49 – 3:50
nitrogen content of those
3:50 – 3:51
products is in the amino acid
3:51 – 3:52
form. However,
3:54 – 3:56
our experience over the last
3:56 – 3:57
half a dozen years or more has
3:57 – 3:58
really brought
3:59 – 4:01
to light that not all amino acid
4:02 – 4:03
products are equivalent.
4:04 – 4:05
They can be equivalent in
4:05 – 4:07
nitrogen content on the label,
4:08 – 4:11
but plants absorb them as
4:11 – 4:12
foliar applications very
4:12 – 4:13
differently.
4:14 – 4:15
So
4:15 – 4:16
in,
4:17 – 4:19
just thinking out loud here,
4:19 – 4:21
speaking in, this is some very
4:21 – 4:22
broad brush strokes, but
4:23 – 4:23
In general,
4:24 – 4:25
the amino acids that are
4:25 – 4:28
produced through some type of
4:28 – 4:30
enzymatic breakdown process or
4:30 – 4:32
fermentation process are
4:32 – 4:34
much more readily absorbed than
4:34 – 4:35
others.
4:35 – 4:36
So
4:36 – 4:38
liquid fish, for example, is
4:38 – 4:39
absorbed quite readily.
4:39 – 4:41
That's why we get a nice
4:41 – 4:42
nitrogen response from liquid
4:42 – 4:43
fish historically.
4:44 – 4:45
But there are,
4:45 – 4:46
and I don't want to speak
4:46 – 4:47
disparaging of any products, so
4:47 – 4:48
I'm not going to name any
4:48 – 4:49
products, but there are some
4:49 – 4:50
amino acid powders
4:50 – 4:52
particularly plant extract
4:52 – 4:53
-based ones, such as soybean
4:53 – 4:54
powder -based,
4:54 – 4:55
that
4:55 – 4:58
the plants just don't respond to
4:58 – 4:59
it
4:59 – 5:00
very well.
5:01 – 5:03
You put on an application, and
5:03 – 5:04
you'll
5:04 – 5:06
have to try this and just
5:06 – 5:07
evaluate how products perform.
5:07 – 5:08
So
5:08 – 5:09
I'd say there is,
5:10 – 5:11
the amino acid products have a
5:11 – 5:12
great deal of promise and
5:12 – 5:14
potential. When they perform,
5:14 – 5:15
they perform incredibly well.
5:16 – 5:17
And when they don't perform,
5:17 – 5:18
they're a complete dud.
5:18 – 5:19
There's very little middle
5:19 – 5:20
ground between the two,
5:21 – 5:22
yeah.
5:22 – 5:23
Any other questions?
5:26 – 5:27
The first question,
5:28 – 5:29
you responded by
5:30 – 5:31
urea.
5:31 – 5:33
Is that the same thing that he
5:33 – 5:33
was talking about?
5:33 – 5:35
Are the two terms the same?
5:44 – 5:45
Melted urea.
5:47 – 5:51
So urea is most commonly and
5:51 – 5:52
most readily available in a dry
5:52 – 5:53
granular form.
5:54 – 5:56
And if you want to apply it
5:57 – 5:58
as
5:59 – 6:00
a liquid form, either spraying
6:00 – 6:01
it on or an irrigation system or
6:01 – 6:02
something like that,
6:02 – 6:04
it needs to be dissolved.
6:04 – 6:06
And it's sometimes referred to
6:06 – 6:07
as melted urea
6:08 – 6:10
because it dissolves fairly
6:10 – 6:11
readily.
6:12 – 6:15
But if you want to produce a
6:15 – 6:16
concentrated version of it, like
6:16 – 6:18
anything I think above 14 %
6:18 – 6:19
nitrogen,
6:19 – 6:21
It requires using hot water and
6:21 – 6:24
it requires using sometimes
6:24 – 6:25
stainless steel equipment
6:25 – 6:26
instead of poly equipment only
6:26 – 6:27
because it
6:28 – 6:29
produces, in the process of
6:29 – 6:30
melting it, it produces an
6:30 – 6:31
exothermic reaction.
6:31 – 6:32
It gets very cold.
6:33 – 6:35
I've seen the process of melting
6:35 – 6:36
urea
6:36 – 6:37
not using hot water,
6:38 – 6:39
putting an inch and a half to
6:39 – 6:40
two inches of hoarfrost on the
6:40 – 6:41
outside of a tank.
6:42 – 6:43
So
6:42 – 6:44
because of that, that language
6:44 – 6:46
is used of melted urea.
6:47 – 6:49
And the forms of granular urea,
6:50 – 6:52
the most common form
6:53 – 6:54
that is used in
6:55 – 6:56
dry broadcast fertilizer
6:56 – 6:58
applications as granular urea
6:58 – 6:59
contains this,
7:00 – 7:01
I'm not sure what the
7:01 – 7:02
appropriate term is here, but
7:02 – 7:04
I'll use the term contaminant.
7:04 – 7:05
It contains this contaminant
7:05 – 7:07
called biuret that has a
7:07 – 7:07
negative,
7:08 – 7:09
can become toxic to plants when
7:09 – 7:10
applied as a foliar in large
7:10 – 7:12
enough amounts, has a negative
7:12 – 7:13
effect to plants applied as a
7:13 – 7:14
foliar, but not when applied to
7:14 – 7:15
soil.
7:15 – 7:18
So that's why we specify
7:18 – 7:20
a specific grade of urea when
7:20 – 7:21
we're melting it and using it in
7:21 – 7:22
foliars.
7:25 – 7:26
Any other questions?
7:28 – 7:30
Surely you've woken up already.
7:31 – 7:32
Yeah.
7:39 – 7:40
What's the question exactly?
7:41 – 7:42
So you said if.
7:41 – 7:45
if...
7:45 – 7:46
So
7:45 – 7:49
the
7:49 – 7:50
question was,
7:50 – 7:51
do plants struggle to absorb
7:51 – 7:54
calcium if boron levels in soils
7:54 – 7:54
are low?
7:54 – 7:55
Did I capture that correctly?
7:57 – 7:58
Oh boy,
7:58 – 8:00
this is a fun conversation.
8:01 – 8:03
The short answer is yes.
8:04 – 8:06
When you have low boron levels,
8:06 – 8:08
plants will not absorb calcium
8:08 – 8:09
very well.
8:09 – 8:11
But much more than that, they
8:11 – 8:12
also won't move calcium around
8:12 – 8:14
inside the plant very well.
8:14 – 8:15
They won't metabolize it very
8:15 – 8:16
efficiently. The whole calcium
8:16 – 8:17
metabolism process just
8:18 – 8:20
breaks down and functions very
8:20 – 8:22
poorly if plants don't have
8:22 – 8:22
enough boron.
8:23 – 8:24
So,
8:25 – 8:26
this
8:26 – 8:28
is, I spent some time talking
8:28 – 8:31
about this in my first day
8:31 – 8:31
class,
8:32 – 8:33
but I know there's many new
8:33 – 8:35
faces here. So I'll give you a
8:35 – 8:36
quick synopsis again.
8:37 – 8:38
I'm of the persuasion that
8:39 – 8:40
if
8:40 – 8:42
If we made sure that crops had
8:42 – 8:43
adequate levels of boron,
8:43 – 8:45
the pesticide requirements and
8:45 – 8:47
the pesticide, or I should say
8:47 – 8:48
specifically insecticides, the
8:48 – 8:49
use of insecticides would drop
8:49 – 8:50
by 95 %
8:51 – 8:52
because.
8:56 – 8:56
Yes.
8:59 – 9:00
Thank you. I'll come back to
9:00 – 9:01
that. So the question was
9:01 – 9:04
specifically on boron in the
9:04 – 9:05
soil rather than as foliar
9:05 – 9:06
applications.
9:07 – 9:08
So
9:10 – 9:11
the,
9:13 – 9:15
as a result of a lot of
9:15 – 9:17
experimentation on many
9:17 – 9:18
different crops,
9:18 – 9:20
I've come to the conclusion that
9:20 – 9:23
the desired values of boron
9:24 – 9:25
are about
9:26 – 9:29
20%, between 10 and 20 % of what
9:29 – 9:30
they actually need to be
9:31 – 9:33
for really healthy plants, for
9:33 – 9:34
most crops.
9:35 – 9:35
And so
9:36 – 9:37
I'm talking,
9:38 – 9:39
there's of course different
9:39 – 9:41
soils and different crops are
9:41 – 9:42
described as having very
9:42 – 9:43
different requirements.
9:43 – 9:44
It's difficult to speak in
9:44 – 9:45
universal terms.
9:45 – 9:47
But as a general rule,
9:48 – 9:49
the very lowest level, let's say
9:49 – 9:51
we have very sandy soil,
9:51 – 9:53
the very lowest level of calcium
9:53 – 9:54
that is required to produce a
9:54 – 9:56
healthy crop is 1 ,000 parts per
9:56 – 9:57
million calcium in the soil.
9:59 – 9:59
And for
10:01 – 10:02
that 1 ,000 parts per million
10:02 – 10:03
calcium,
10:03 – 10:05
I want to see three parts per
10:05 – 10:07
million boron in the soil.
10:08 – 10:09
And that's my general,
10:10 – 10:11
Rule of thumb,
10:11 – 10:13
general ratio is 1 ,000 parts
10:13 – 10:14
per million to three.
10:14 – 10:16
So if you have soil that has
10:17 – 10:18
2 ,000 parts per million
10:18 – 10:19
calcium,
10:19 – 10:22
you can bring boron levels up to
10:22 – 10:24
six parts per million on most
10:24 – 10:26
soils and most crops and have
10:26 – 10:27
increasing positive crop
10:27 – 10:29
responses the more you bring
10:29 – 10:30
boron levels up.
10:31 – 10:33
So the least expensive way is,
10:33 – 10:34
but we haven't,
10:36 – 10:38
we've been taught to think, or
10:38 – 10:40
largely the conversation around
10:40 – 10:41
boron for many years has been
10:41 – 10:43
described as
10:43 – 10:45
using boron as a soil amendment.
10:45 – 10:46
Oh, this is something you do
10:46 – 10:47
once every three years or once
10:47 – 10:48
every five years or something
10:48 – 10:49
like that.
10:49 – 10:50
But we sure don't think about
10:50 – 10:51
nitrogen that way,
10:52 – 10:53
and we don't think about sulfur
10:53 – 10:54
that way,
10:55 – 10:56
because we recognize that
10:56 – 10:57
nitrogen and sulfur leach.
10:58 – 10:59
And boron does exactly the same
10:59 – 11:01
thing. Boron is an anion.
11:01 – 11:01
It's negatively charged.
11:01 – 11:02
It leaches out of the system.
11:03 – 11:04
And we have to think about
11:04 – 11:07
applying it every year until
11:07 – 11:09
our soil has demonstrated the
11:09 – 11:12
ability to hold on to boron and
11:12 – 11:13
for it not to leach, which is a
11:13 – 11:14
reflection of soil fungal
11:14 – 11:15
populations.
11:18 – 11:20
My rule of thumb for boron
11:20 – 11:20
applications,
11:21 – 11:23
it is relative to rainfall and
11:24 – 11:25
relative to soil calcium levels.
11:26 – 11:27
So relative to rainfall,
11:28 – 11:29
our rule of thumb is that you
11:29 – 11:31
need a half a pound of actual
11:31 – 11:33
boron per acre per 10 inches of
11:33 – 11:34
rainfall per year.
11:35 – 11:37
So if you're in a 40 -inch
11:37 – 11:38
rainfall environment,
11:39 – 11:41
that means you need two pounds
11:41 – 11:42
of actual boron.
11:42 – 11:44
That is the quantity of boron
11:44 – 11:45
that the
11:45 – 11:47
rainfall is going to leach out
11:47 – 11:48
of the soil if
11:49 – 11:50
you do nothing.
11:50 – 11:51
Does that track so far?
11:52 – 11:54
So to your original question,
11:57 – 11:58
we've found that
11:58 – 12:01
in
12:02 – 12:03
terms of plant response, of
12:03 – 12:04
plant absorption of boron,
12:05 – 12:07
For all the various forms, we've
12:07 – 12:08
measured boric acid,
12:09 – 12:10
solubor,
12:10 – 12:12
calcium borate, sodium borate,
12:12 – 12:15
various forms. And there is a,
12:15 – 12:16
from what we've observed, there
12:16 – 12:19
is a similar release
12:19 – 12:21
response across all those
12:21 – 12:22
different types of boron where
12:22 – 12:24
we're getting peak plant
12:24 – 12:26
absorption about 45 to 60 days
12:26 – 12:26
after application.
12:28 – 12:29
And because of that, our
12:29 – 12:30
preferred application
12:31 – 12:32
If we're dealing with perennial
12:32 – 12:35
crops that are breaking dormancy
12:35 – 12:36
in the spring, and this doesn't
12:36 – 12:37
matter if it's alfalfa or tree
12:37 – 12:39
fruit or whatever the case might
12:39 – 12:39
be,
12:39 – 12:41
but that calcium supply, having
12:41 – 12:42
adequate, we often have this
12:42 – 12:44
spring lush growth, spring
12:44 – 12:45
flush.
12:45 – 12:47
And to have that spring flush be
12:47 – 12:48
at peak disease resistance,
12:49 – 12:51
peak insect resistance, we need
12:51 – 12:53
calcium to match the growth
12:53 – 12:53
flush.
12:54 – 12:55
And therefore, we need boron to
12:55 – 12:56
match the growth flush.
12:56 – 12:58
So if we put on a boron
12:58 – 12:59
application in the spring, we're
12:59 – 13:00
60 days too late.
13:01 – 13:02
Let me rephrase that.
13:02 – 13:04
If we put a boron application on
13:04 – 13:06
that is timed with the spring
13:06 – 13:07
lush,
13:07 – 13:08
it's 60 days too late.
13:09 – 13:10
So for
13:10 – 13:11
a lot of these perennial crops,
13:11 – 13:14
we're finding our best responses
13:14 – 13:16
come from putting on a soil
13:16 – 13:18
application of boron
13:18 – 13:21
minimum of 45 to 60 days
13:21 – 13:24
before we get spring dormancy
13:24 – 13:25
break.
13:25 – 13:26
And that can even happen as
13:26 – 13:28
early as fall. You can do it 90
13:28 – 13:29
days or 100 days in advance.
13:30 – 13:32
And that's when we get the peak
13:32 – 13:33
response in terms of calcium
13:33 – 13:35
absorption and in terms of boron
13:35 – 13:36
absorption into the crop.
13:37 – 13:38
Did that answer your question?
13:45 – 13:47
The boron application rate is
13:47 – 13:50
one half pound of actual boron
13:50 – 13:50
per
13:51 – 13:52
10 inches of rainfall.
13:54 – 13:55
Yes.
13:56 – 13:57
So how often do you recommend
13:57 – 13:59
that we sound test corn fields
13:59 – 14:00
throughout the throwing season?
14:00 – 14:01
And secondly,
14:02 – 14:03
what the problem, based on what
14:03 – 14:05
you see on the sound test,
14:05 – 14:06
What is going to be the most
14:06 – 14:08
difficult to change in a foliar
14:08 – 14:09
application?
14:10 – 14:11
Alright,
14:13 – 14:13
two very good questions.
14:14 – 14:15
So the first question is how
14:15 – 14:16
frequently do I recommend the
14:16 – 14:18
use of sap analysis on a corn
14:18 – 14:18
crop, for example?
14:19 – 14:20
And the second question
14:20 – 14:21
is
14:22 – 14:24
what nutrients do I find the
14:24 – 14:26
most difficult to move with a
14:26 – 14:27
foliar application?
14:27 – 14:28
Did I capture that accurately?
14:29 – 14:30
Yeah.
14:30 – 14:31
So
14:31 – 14:33
to the first question,
14:33 – 14:35
there are two answers.
14:36 – 14:40
The one answer is a desire to
14:40 – 14:41
learn about your crop
14:41 – 14:43
and how it actually moves
14:43 – 14:44
nutrients around during the
14:44 – 14:45
growing season
14:45 – 14:46
every 14 days.
14:47 – 14:49
The second answer is
14:49 – 14:51
what's the minimum needed to
14:51 – 14:54
make agronomic recommendations.
14:55 – 14:57
And I would say the minimum on a
14:57 – 14:58
corn crop is about three
14:58 – 14:59
and
15:00 – 15:01
ideally
15:02 – 15:03
I would suggest doing it about
15:03 – 15:05
every 7 to 10 days,
15:05 – 15:07
however much time you need for
15:07 – 15:07
turnaround time.
15:07 – 15:09
Let's say every 10 days before
15:09 – 15:11
you intend to make a foliar
15:11 – 15:11
application.
15:12 – 15:14
That's when you get the peak.
15:14 – 15:16
That's the most practical, from
15:16 – 15:17
a practical application
15:17 – 15:18
perspective, that's the optimal
15:18 – 15:19
timing.
15:21 – 15:23
And then in terms of getting
15:23 – 15:24
nutrients to move.
15:26 – 15:27
the,
15:29 – 15:30
I'd say one of the most
15:30 – 15:31
difficult things to get to move
15:31 – 15:32
generally
15:32 – 15:34
is getting excess of chloride
15:34 – 15:35
levels to go down.
15:37 – 15:38
In
15:39 – 15:41
terms of having, in terms of
15:41 – 15:42
having low levels of nutrients
15:42 – 15:45
and getting them to increase,
15:46 – 15:46
we
15:48 – 15:49
don't have,
15:49 – 15:50
this
15:52 – 15:53
is an interesting conundrum
15:53 – 15:53
question,
15:53 – 15:55
because I can answer it in the
15:55 – 15:56
context of our experience at AEA
15:56 – 15:57
or outside of AEA.
15:57 – 15:58
So let me say it this way.
15:58 – 15:59
When
15:59 – 16:01
we first started using SAP
16:01 – 16:02
analysis in 2011,
16:03 – 16:06
We quickly discovered that the
16:06 – 16:07
trace mineral products that we
16:07 – 16:08
were using at the time, and we
16:08 – 16:10
were using manganese sulfate and
16:10 – 16:13
zinc sulfate and so forth, using
16:13 – 16:14
sulfates that we were blending
16:14 – 16:16
with fulvic acids and organic
16:16 – 16:17
acids and amino acids.
16:18 – 16:20
And we quickly discovered that
16:20 – 16:21
the materials we were using at
16:21 – 16:23
that point were not moving the
16:23 – 16:24
needle.
16:23 – 16:25
They just simply were not being
16:25 – 16:26
effective at increasing,
16:26 – 16:28
specifically zinc, manganese,
16:28 – 16:29
copper, cobalt.
16:32 – 16:33
And
16:33 – 16:34
Today,
16:35 – 16:36
so that led to the development
16:36 – 16:39
of the rebound line of trace
16:39 – 16:39
minerals,
16:40 – 16:41
which is, the rebound line of
16:41 – 16:44
trace minerals has three
16:44 – 16:45
important characteristics.
16:46 – 16:47
One is they're chelated.
16:48 – 16:49
Second,
16:50 – 16:51
in the case of the metals,
16:51 – 16:52
they're all in the reduced form,
16:52 – 16:53
they're in the correct oxidation
16:53 – 16:54
state.
16:54 – 16:55
And third,
16:56 – 16:58
as far as I know, I'm not aware
16:58 – 16:59
of other chelated products that
16:59 – 17:01
exist that have this
17:01 – 17:01
characteristic.
17:02 – 17:03
They
17:03 – 17:04
have the ability,
17:05 – 17:07
when they're applied to the
17:07 – 17:07
leaf,
17:08 – 17:09
to move down into the root
17:09 – 17:10
system.
17:10 – 17:11
So even if you have a typical
17:11 – 17:12
chelate,
17:13 – 17:14
it's very common for most
17:14 – 17:16
chelates to remain in the upper
17:16 – 17:17
parts of the plant.
17:17 – 17:18
So if you put on a zinc chelate
17:18 – 17:19
or a manganese chelate, for
17:19 – 17:20
example, it's very common for
17:20 – 17:21
that. It can move
17:22 – 17:25
from the leaf into
17:25 – 17:26
fruit,
17:26 – 17:28
but it doesn't really move from
17:28 – 17:29
the leaf down to the root
17:29 – 17:30
system, which is very important
17:30 – 17:32
if you are dealing with any root
17:32 – 17:33
diseases or soil -borne
17:33 – 17:34
diseases. Getting those
17:34 – 17:35
nutrients down to the root
17:35 – 17:35
system is very critical.
17:38 – 17:39
So in
17:40 – 17:41
our experience with our rebound
17:41 – 17:42
trace minerals,
17:42 – 17:43
getting the trace minerals to
17:43 – 17:45
move is very easy and very
17:45 – 17:46
consistent and very reliable.
17:47 – 17:48
And outside of that,
17:48 – 17:49
it's proven to be very
17:49 – 17:50
challenging
17:51 – 17:52
to
17:53 – 17:55
the point where we're often
17:55 – 17:56
asked to,
17:57 – 17:59
and we do a lot of consulting
17:59 – 18:01
work internationally in areas
18:01 – 18:03
where growers don't have access
18:03 – 18:04
to our products.
18:04 – 18:06
And so we're just doing paid
18:06 – 18:07
consulting work and making
18:07 – 18:08
recommendations.
18:09 – 18:10
And
18:10 – 18:12
those experiences are sometimes
18:12 – 18:14
very frustrating for us because
18:14 – 18:16
We have expectations of being
18:16 – 18:17
able to put a product on and see
18:17 – 18:18
the needle move and get a
18:18 – 18:19
proportional crop response.
18:20 – 18:21
And we have a very difficult
18:21 – 18:22
time replicating that with
18:22 – 18:23
products that are available in
18:23 – 18:24
the local marketplace.
18:25 – 18:25
So,
18:25 – 18:28
that's the answer to your
18:28 – 18:29
question.
18:29 – 18:30
Let me see,
18:31 – 18:31
what was the second question?
18:41 – 18:44
At what time of day am I wasting
18:44 – 18:45
my time on those foliar jobs?
18:45 – 18:46
For example, should it be
18:46 – 18:47
beginning on the 17th?
18:47 – 18:49
Should I put
18:49 – 18:52
a
18:52 – 18:55
urea liquor with the foliar?
18:55 – 18:56
You
18:58 – 18:59
want to have a class on foliar
18:59 – 19:00
applications?
19:00 – 19:01
Maybe we need to.
19:02 – 19:03
Very good questions.
19:03 – 19:04
So the questions were what are
19:04 – 19:05
optimal time of day for
19:05 – 19:06
application?
19:07 – 19:09
Do we need to put on urea liquor
19:09 – 19:10
with every application?
19:11 – 19:12
What is optimal design?
19:14 – 19:14
Well,
19:15 – 19:16
prior to this week, if you would
19:16 – 19:17
have asked me about optimal
19:17 – 19:18
design for,
19:18 – 19:20
or optimal timing for foliar
19:20 – 19:21
applications on corn, I would
19:21 – 19:22
have said
19:22 – 19:24
with a very high degree of
19:24 – 19:26
confidence that the
19:27 – 19:28
optimal timing
19:28 – 19:31
is late in the day, in the
19:31 – 19:32
evening.
19:33 – 19:33
The
19:34 – 19:36
objective is to try to keep
19:36 – 19:38
those foliar spray droplets
19:38 – 19:39
liquid on the leaf surface as
19:39 – 19:40
long as possible.
19:41 – 19:43
So in nighttime when you have a
19:44 – 19:46
higher humidity usually, a lower
19:46 – 19:47
dew point usually,
19:48 – 19:49
is
19:49 – 19:51
when you can keep that liquid,
19:52 – 19:53
that droplet liquid on the leaf
19:53 – 19:54
surface for the longest period
19:54 – 19:55
of time.
19:55 – 19:57
And to partially answer your one
19:57 – 19:58
other question,
19:59 – 20:00
For people who are not familiar,
20:01 – 20:02
I taught this webinar, it's on
20:02 – 20:03
YouTube,
20:03 – 20:04
a number of years ago already,
20:04 – 20:06
where I spoke about this one
20:06 – 20:07
factor in foliar applications
20:07 – 20:08
that is referred to as the point
20:08 – 20:09
of deliquescence.
20:10 – 20:11
And the point of deliquescence
20:11 – 20:12
is a term that everyone should
20:12 – 20:13
be familiar with, but most of us
20:13 – 20:14
aren't.
20:14 – 20:17
And it's very simply, it is
20:17 – 20:19
a measurement
20:20 – 20:22
of a fluid material's ability to
20:22 – 20:24
be hydroscopic and to pull
20:24 – 20:25
moisture to it from the
20:25 – 20:26
atmosphere.
20:26 – 20:28
So the point of deliquescence is
20:28 – 20:29
a reflection of where is the
20:29 – 20:30
humidity threshold in the
20:30 – 20:32
atmosphere at which this
20:33 – 20:35
spray droplet will remain
20:35 – 20:36
liquid.
20:37 – 20:39
And adding hydroscopic
20:39 – 20:40
materials,
20:40 – 20:42
which urea is one,
20:43 – 20:45
or calcium nitrate, or potassium
20:45 – 20:46
nitrate, adding those types of
20:46 – 20:49
materials to a spray solution
20:50 – 20:51
In relatively small amounts,
20:52 – 20:54
urea can be included,
20:55 – 20:56
if I recall correctly, in as
20:56 – 20:58
little as 2 % of the spray
20:58 – 20:59
solution.
20:59 – 21:01
And that will give you an
21:01 – 21:02
elevated point of deliquescence
21:02 – 21:03
to the point where that liquid
21:03 – 21:05
will stay, that droplet will
21:05 – 21:06
remain liquid on the leaf
21:06 – 21:07
surface for a long period of
21:07 – 21:08
time. So it absolutely is
21:08 – 21:09
valuable to add those into the
21:09 – 21:10
spray solution.
21:12 – 21:13
And I
21:15 – 21:16
think it was on Monday here, or
21:16 – 21:17
maybe yesterday,
21:18 – 21:19
I had a conversation with a
21:19 – 21:20
grower who has
21:22 – 21:22
been doing lots of foliar
21:22 – 21:23
applications
21:24 – 21:27
of urea and other products with
21:27 – 21:28
drone applications.
21:29 – 21:31
And they found a 10 bushel per
21:31 – 21:33
acre yield difference between
21:33 – 21:35
evening applied and morning
21:35 – 21:36
applied foliar applications.
21:37 – 21:38
And the morning application
21:39 – 21:40
produced
21:40 – 21:42
the highest response.
21:42 – 21:43
The evening application had a
21:43 – 21:44
lower response than the morning
21:44 – 21:45
application,
21:45 – 21:46
which is not what I would have
21:46 – 21:48
expected. And I want to dig
21:48 – 21:49
deeper into that case.
21:49 – 21:51
I want to understand what was
21:51 – 21:52
the humidity,
21:52 – 21:53
what was dew like, what were
21:53 – 21:54
other things going on.
21:54 – 21:55
And because that,
21:56 – 21:57
first
21:58 – 22:00
of all, that experience is
22:00 – 22:02
different from what I would have
22:02 – 22:03
expected and what we've observed
22:03 – 22:04
in other cases.
22:04 – 22:05
And the
22:06 – 22:08
caveat to that is that we don't
22:08 – 22:09
have a lot of people who've
22:09 – 22:11
actually measured the results.
22:11 – 22:14
We look at visual observation,
22:14 – 22:15
but we don't have a lot of
22:15 – 22:15
measurements.
22:15 – 22:16
So here's someone who's actually
22:16 – 22:17
done the measurement.
22:18 – 22:20
So now, we need to evaluate and
22:20 – 22:22
find out what was actually
22:22 – 22:23
happening and going on there.
22:23 – 22:24
Did I answer all of your
22:24 – 22:25
questions?
22:27 – 22:28
All right.
22:27 – 22:28
Yes.
22:40 – 22:41
Art, you love asking the
22:41 – 22:42
provocative questions, don't
22:42 – 22:43
you?
22:43 – 22:45
So the question was, what water
22:45 – 22:46
are you using for your Foliar
22:46 – 22:47
spray quality?
22:48 – 22:49
And water quality is absolutely
22:49 – 22:50
fundamental.
22:52 – 22:53
You can have
22:53 – 22:54
you can have foliar applications
22:54 – 22:56
with the exact same amounts of
22:56 – 22:58
nutrients and put them in clean
22:58 – 23:00
water and produce a very strong,
23:00 – 23:01
very beneficial crop response,
23:01 – 23:03
put them in dirty water and get
23:03 – 23:04
zero response. And when I say
23:04 – 23:06
dirty water, I'm not talking
23:06 – 23:08
about physically observable
23:08 – 23:09
muddy water.
23:09 – 23:10
I'm talking specifically about
23:10 – 23:11
water that has high levels of
23:11 – 23:12
carbonates or bicarbonates.
23:12 – 23:14
And so from my perspective,
23:15 – 23:16
there are
23:17 – 23:18
essentially
23:20 – 23:22
three sources that
23:23 – 23:23
are possible.
23:24 – 23:25
One, you can use rainwater.
23:27 – 23:28
Two,
23:28 – 23:29
you can use reverse osmosis
23:29 – 23:30
water.
23:31 – 23:33
Three, you can use water that
23:34 – 23:36
has been tested and measured and
23:36 – 23:37
is known to be clean.
23:39 – 23:40
And I don't want to have any
23:40 – 23:41
follow -up questions from people
23:41 – 23:42
asking me, well, hey, can I use
23:42 – 23:43
well water? Can I use pond
23:43 – 23:44
water? Can I use river water?
23:44 – 23:45
Can I use stream water?
23:45 – 23:46
It's very simple.
23:46 – 23:47
You have to test it and know
23:47 – 23:48
that it's clean,
23:49 – 23:50
because I can't speculate.
23:56 – 23:58
Reverse osmosis units
23:58 – 24:01
pay significant dividends in
24:01 – 24:02
foliar applications.
24:02 – 24:02
If you're doing foliar
24:02 – 24:04
applications, a reverse osmosis
24:04 – 24:05
unit in most
24:06 – 24:07
regions of the soil, most
24:07 – 24:08
regions of the country, unless
24:08 – 24:09
you have the ability to access
24:09 – 24:11
rainwater in large enough
24:11 – 24:11
amounts,
24:12 – 24:13
a reverse osmosis unit pays for
24:13 – 24:14
itself very quickly and improve
24:14 – 24:15
product performance and improve
24:15 – 24:16
prop performance.
24:17 – 24:19
They're very, very necessary and
24:19 – 24:20
very valuable devices.
24:20 – 24:21
The next question that someone
24:21 – 24:22
is about to ask is, what about
24:22 – 24:23
water structuring devices?
24:25 – 24:26
There are,
24:27 – 24:28
I've had this conversation a
24:28 – 24:29
hundred times or two, you see.
24:32 – 24:33
There are
24:34 – 24:35
many water structuring devices
24:35 – 24:36
on the marketplace.
24:37 – 24:39
A few of them,
24:39 – 24:40
are quite effective.
24:42 – 24:44
And I would point people to, I
24:44 – 24:46
don't know if Steve Divers spoke
24:46 – 24:47
yesterday, I think he's speaking
24:47 – 24:48
today.
24:48 – 24:49
If you're interested in water
24:49 – 24:50
structuring devices and
24:50 – 24:52
technology, I would encourage
24:52 – 24:53
you to speak to Steve because
24:53 – 24:56
many, many folks
24:56 – 24:57
have
24:57 – 25:00
theoretical conversations
25:01 – 25:03
Steve has actually tested many
25:03 – 25:05
different devices and tested
25:06 – 25:06
their,
25:07 – 25:08
the crop response that they
25:08 – 25:09
produce.
25:10 – 25:12
And he actually knows which are
25:12 – 25:13
effective and which are not.
25:13 – 25:15
So I would defer to Steve for
25:15 – 25:15
that conversation.
25:16 – 25:17
All right, we had another
25:17 – 25:18
question over here somewhere.
25:20 – 25:21
Not anymore.
25:21 – 25:22
You're
25:40 – 25:41
referring to the timing of the
25:41 – 25:42
foliar application response.
25:44 – 25:45
So this gentleman was just
25:45 – 25:46
referring to
25:47 – 25:49
possibly corn might produce a
25:49 – 25:50
larger
25:50 – 25:52
response
25:52 – 25:53
from a morning application
25:53 – 25:54
versus
25:55 – 25:58
a fall application in a drought
25:58 – 25:59
-stressed environment where you
25:59 – 26:01
have stomatal opening limited
26:01 – 26:02
mostly to the morning hours
26:02 – 26:03
instead of to the evening hours?
26:03 – 26:04
Am I understanding correctly or
26:04 – 26:05
interpreting correctly?
26:15 – 26:16
Yeah, so,
26:17 – 26:18
and
26:19 – 26:21
the follow -up clarification was
26:21 – 26:23
on what
26:23 – 26:24
is the,
26:25 – 26:26
that corn has a different
26:26 – 26:27
stomatal arrangement on the leaf
26:27 – 26:30
than a lot of other plants do.
26:32 – 26:34
The caveat that I would offer is
26:34 – 26:35
that the majority of nutrient
26:35 – 26:36
absorption through
26:37 – 26:38
the leaf is not through the
26:38 – 26:39
stomata.
26:40 – 26:41
In fact,
26:41 – 26:42
very limited levels.
26:43 – 26:45
If anyone tries to sell you a
26:45 – 26:46
story
26:46 – 26:48
that nutrients absorption, they
26:48 – 26:50
have a micronized calcium
26:50 – 26:51
carbonate product or something
26:51 – 26:52
like that, that is being
26:52 – 26:53
absorbed through the stomata,
26:53 – 26:54
that's a bunch of bologna.
26:55 – 26:57
because stomata represent,
26:57 – 26:59
I don't know, less than 1 % of
26:59 – 27:00
the surface area of a leaf.
27:03 – 27:05
So what actually happens,
27:06 – 27:08
what should happen, what can
27:08 – 27:09
happen, there is,
27:10 – 27:11
of course, ionic diffusion that
27:11 – 27:13
happens when you have soluble
27:13 – 27:14
ions and soluble products,
27:15 – 27:15
chelates and so forth.
27:16 – 27:20
But what an underappreciated
27:20 – 27:23
mechanism is that we have a
27:23 – 27:25
very active microbial population
27:25 – 27:28
on the leaf surface that will
27:28 – 27:30
absorb nutrients and transfer it
27:30 – 27:32
into the leaf in much the same
27:32 – 27:33
way as what happens in the soil
27:33 – 27:34
microbiome.
27:34 – 27:36
So we should be thinking about
27:36 – 27:38
the leaf microbiome similar to
27:38 – 27:38
what we're thinking about the
27:38 – 27:39
soil microbiome.
27:39 – 27:40
And a lot of the products that
27:40 – 27:41
we're applying
27:42 – 27:43
are actually absorbed by
27:43 – 27:45
microbes and then transferred
27:45 – 27:46
into plants, particularly if
27:46 – 27:47
we're putting on dry powder
27:47 – 27:49
products like powdered calcium
27:49 – 27:50
carbonate or something like
27:50 – 27:51
that.
27:51 – 27:52
So that doesn't reduce their
27:52 – 27:53
effectiveness,
27:53 – 27:55
but it means that they can have
27:55 – 27:56
a delayed effectiveness where
27:56 – 27:59
the peak effect might occur 24
27:59 – 28:01
to 48 hours later instead of 4
28:01 – 28:02
to 6 hours if you're applying
28:02 – 28:03
urea or something like that.
28:04 – 28:05
Yes, Helen.
28:08 – 28:10
trying to understand how the
28:10 – 28:12
foliar applications that we did
28:12 – 28:14
at Blue for perennials work, I
28:14 – 28:16
totally agree with doing more on
28:16 – 28:18
it and why we were able to stop
28:18 – 28:20
spraying that with some peaches.
28:20 – 28:22
But once we discovered the
28:22 – 28:24
native yeast on the leaves,
28:25 – 28:26
trying to figure that out,
28:28 – 28:31
I still don't quite get it.
28:31 – 28:33
But I know that there's an
28:33 – 28:33
interaction.
28:34 – 28:35
Do you think that you could have
28:35 – 28:37
been predictive about,
28:37 – 28:38
OK, I'm going to ask Dippo.
28:39 – 28:41
about particular microbial
28:41 – 28:44
communities in the leaf surface,
28:45 – 28:46
foliar
28:47 – 28:48
application,
28:49 – 28:50
and time. can
28:52 – 28:54
you can you ask me that question
28:54 – 28:55
again
28:55 – 28:57
that last sentence can you
28:57 – 28:58
compress that last sentence
28:58 – 28:59
again
29:03 – 29:05
applications on inverts.
29:05 – 29:08
And notice different efficacy in
29:08 – 29:12
terms of both yield and in
29:12 – 29:15
terms of particularly disease
29:15 – 29:16
suppression.
29:16 – 29:17
Yeah. And not so much insect
29:17 – 29:19
suppression, but definitely
29:19 – 29:22
disease suppression with things
29:22 – 29:25
like boron and other
29:25 – 29:26
micronutrients in our mineral
29:26 – 29:27
mix, right? Yeah.
29:28 – 29:30
Once we discovered and tried to
29:30 – 29:31
understand
29:32 – 29:34
the microbial leaf community
29:34 – 29:36
pulled out a geist,
29:36 – 29:38
which turned out to be,
29:38 – 29:39
ironically,
29:39 – 29:40
oracy.
29:40 – 29:41
But could
29:43 – 29:44
you be predictive?
29:45 – 29:46
I'm sorry, I'm talking with my
29:46 – 29:47
hands.
29:47 – 29:48
Could you be predictive about
29:48 – 29:49
that and say,
29:50 – 29:52
if one leaf microbial population
29:52 – 29:55
is leaning this way,
29:56 – 29:57
I can,
29:58 – 29:59
I have the options of doing
29:59 – 30:00
that?
30:05 – 30:06
all of that question to the
30:06 – 30:07
audience.
30:07 – 30:09
But the question was,
30:10 – 30:12
so Helen Athow is asking the
30:12 – 30:13
question. She's the author of
30:13 – 30:14
the book,
30:14 – 30:15
what is it, The Ecological
30:15 – 30:15
Farmer?
30:16 – 30:17
I
30:17 – 30:19
really enjoyed the conversations
30:19 – 30:19
that I had with her on the
30:19 – 30:20
podcast.
30:20 – 30:22
And the observation that she's
30:22 – 30:24
relaying is that when they were
30:24 – 30:26
growing organic tree fruit, they
30:26 – 30:29
observed variable responses to
30:29 – 30:30
foliar applications of nutrients
30:30 – 30:32
relative to disease suppression
30:33 – 30:34
based on what was happening
30:34 – 30:36
within the plant microbiome, on
30:36 – 30:36
the leaf microbiome.
30:37 – 30:38
Did I capture that correctly?
30:38 – 30:39
Yeah, awesome.
30:40 – 30:41
And her question is,
30:42 – 30:44
how can we manage that
30:44 – 30:45
proactively?
30:47 – 30:47
All right,
30:49 – 30:50
this is such a fun conversation.
30:51 – 30:52
So I
30:57 – 30:59
should back up just a bit
31:00 – 31:03
to expand on one of the previous
31:03 – 31:04
points that I made about boron,
31:04 – 31:05
because it's going to tie into
31:05 – 31:06
this discussion.
31:09 – 31:11
Boron, if there is any nutrient
31:11 – 31:12
that
31:13 – 31:15
has the most, the nutrient that
31:15 – 31:17
has the most direct correlation
31:17 – 31:19
to brix levels in plants is
31:19 – 31:20
boron.
31:21 – 31:22
If you want to increase a
31:22 – 31:23
plant's BRX reading,
31:24 – 31:25
about
31:26 – 31:27
80 % of the time,
31:28 – 31:29
simply putting on a boron
31:29 – 31:30
application is going to
31:30 – 31:31
dramatically increase the BRX
31:31 – 31:32
reading. And I'm talking,
31:33 – 31:33
it'll take
31:33 – 31:36
sugars from 2s and 3s up to 8s
31:36 – 31:36
and 10s.
31:37 – 31:39
most of the time, but not
31:39 – 31:40
always.
31:40 – 31:42
And the reason it doesn't do it
31:42 – 31:43
always is because in order for
31:43 – 31:44
it to have that effect,
31:44 – 31:45
some of the other foundational
31:45 – 31:47
pieces have to be in place as
31:47 – 31:48
well. You have to have adequate
31:48 – 31:48
calcium levels.
31:48 – 31:49
You have to have adequate
31:49 – 31:50
manganese levels.
31:50 – 31:51
Boron by itself isn't a silver
31:51 – 31:53
bullet, but it is very closely
31:53 – 31:55
associated with elevated Briggs
31:55 – 31:55
readings.
31:56 – 31:57
And so from an insect management
31:57 – 31:58
perspective,
31:59 – 32:00
it's become very clear.
32:00 – 32:01
I have
32:01 – 32:03
tremendous respect and
32:03 – 32:04
appreciation for Tom Dykstra's
32:04 – 32:05
work.
32:05 – 32:07
on the association of brix
32:07 – 32:08
readings with insect
32:08 – 32:08
susceptibility.
32:08 – 32:10
In our experience, we've found
32:10 – 32:11
it to be a little bit more
32:11 – 32:13
multidimensional than just brix
32:13 – 32:13
readings alone.
32:14 – 32:15
It's the combination of both
32:15 – 32:16
having higher brix readings and
32:16 – 32:18
having lower levels of soluble
32:18 – 32:20
nitrogen compounds, soluble
32:20 – 32:21
nitrates and ammonium in the
32:21 – 32:22
plant sap. When you have the
32:22 – 32:23
combination of those two things,
32:24 – 32:25
your insect pressure
32:25 – 32:26
just vanishes.
32:27 – 32:28
It's gone. And I'm talking about
32:28 – 32:30
very difficult to manage insects
32:30 – 32:32
such as codling moth and
32:32 – 32:35
Japanese beetles and Colorado
32:35 – 32:36
potato beetles.
32:36 – 32:37
The list goes on and on.
32:37 – 32:38
It becomes a lot of fun.
32:38 – 32:39
You can manage insects very
32:39 – 32:40
effectively. by managing this.
32:41 – 32:43
So I talked about boron and its
32:43 – 32:45
impact on BRICS readings because
32:45 – 32:46
of
32:47 – 32:48
how this translates to this
32:48 – 32:50
conversation about managing
32:50 – 32:51
diseases on the leaf surface.
32:52 – 32:53
So we
32:55 – 32:56
have to start thinking about the
32:56 – 32:58
microbiome on the leaf surface
32:58 – 33:00
much the same way and
33:00 – 33:02
functioning in much the same way
33:02 – 33:03
as the microbiome in the soil.
33:04 – 33:05
And what do the microbes on the
33:05 – 33:06
leaf surface need?
33:06 – 33:07
They need a food source.
33:08 – 33:08
They need sugar.
33:09 – 33:10
and they get sugars,
33:11 – 33:12
mostly,
33:12 – 33:13
when plants have higher Brix
33:13 – 33:14
readings. When you have an
33:14 – 33:15
elevated Brix reading,
33:16 – 33:17
as a reflection,
33:17 – 33:18
I'll say,
33:19 – 33:20
of an elevated boron content,
33:21 – 33:22
you get much more sugar
33:23 – 33:24
being transmitted to the
33:24 – 33:25
microbial community on the leaf
33:25 – 33:27
surface, and therefore you get a
33:27 – 33:28
much larger microbial community
33:28 – 33:29
on the leaf surface.
33:29 – 33:30
And I was having this
33:30 – 33:31
interesting conversation
33:31 – 33:33
yesterday with a microbiome
33:34 – 33:37
researcher who said something to
33:37 – 33:38
the effect of,
33:38 – 33:39
when you provide an abundant
33:39 – 33:40
food source, the good guys
33:40 – 33:41
always win.
33:44 – 33:45
And I found that fasting, I
33:45 – 33:46
hadn't thought of it in quite
33:46 – 33:47
those terms, but I found that to
33:47 – 33:48
be generally true.
33:48 – 33:50
When you provide an abundant
33:50 – 33:51
food source,
33:51 – 33:52
the good guys always win.
33:53 – 33:54
So
33:54 – 33:55
this
33:57 – 33:58
leads me to,
33:58 – 34:00
I can't not have a conversation
34:00 – 34:02
about pinyon in this context
34:02 – 34:03
because the setup is just too
34:03 – 34:04
good.
34:05 – 34:06
So this,
34:10 – 34:12
15 years ago, I got to work on a
34:12 – 34:13
project
34:13 – 34:15
where I wanted to develop
34:16 – 34:16
a
34:17 – 34:20
biocontrol product that
34:20 – 34:22
had an effect
34:23 – 34:26
on the plant microbiome and
34:26 – 34:26
would produce
34:26 – 34:30
systemic
34:30 – 34:31
disease
34:32 – 34:34
resistance as a reflection of
34:34 – 34:36
changing or improving the
34:36 – 34:37
overall plant microbiome.
34:37 – 34:38
I had a lot of fun with that
34:38 – 34:39
project.
34:39 – 34:40
Other things became a priority.
34:41 – 34:42
It ended up sitting on the shelf
34:42 – 34:43
for over a decade.
34:44 – 34:45
Two years ago we started working
34:45 – 34:47
on that project again
34:48 – 34:48
and
34:49 – 34:51
we did some preliminary testing
34:51 – 34:54
in the 2024 growing season that
34:54 – 34:55
kind of
34:56 – 34:57
really
34:57 – 34:58
blew my mind,
34:59 – 35:00
exceeded my expectations by
35:00 – 35:01
quite some distance.
35:01 – 35:03
And I'll tell you, one of the
35:03 – 35:06
very first crops that we
35:06 – 35:08
applied it on was a newly
35:08 – 35:09
planted vineyard in Virginia.
35:10 – 35:11
So these were year -old
35:11 – 35:12
seedlings,
35:13 – 35:14
and actually,
35:15 – 35:16
I shouldn't say year -old
35:16 – 35:17
seedlings. This was the first
35:17 – 35:19
leaf, first year after they had
35:19 – 35:20
been planted, their first
35:20 – 35:21
growing season.
35:21 – 35:24
And there had been a six -week
35:24 – 35:26
period on this operation.
35:26 – 35:29
It was about 130 acres or so of
35:29 – 35:29
newly planted vines.
35:30 – 35:31
They had a six -week period of
35:31 – 35:33
continuous rainfall, high
35:33 – 35:34
humidity, cloud cover,
35:34 – 35:36
and powdery mildew and downy
35:36 – 35:38
mildew was just decimating the
35:38 – 35:39
plants.
35:39 – 35:41
So we put on an application of
35:41 – 35:42
this product. It was a test
35:42 – 35:43
product at the time.
35:43 – 35:44
It's now the product that we
35:44 – 35:44
call Pinion.
35:45 – 35:47
Put on one foliar application at
35:47 – 35:48
an application rate of two
35:48 – 35:48
quarts per acre,
35:49 – 35:51
and the disease stopped in its
35:51 – 35:52
tracks. It just, there was a,
35:53 – 35:54
it was a hard break point.
35:58 – 35:59
And if you're familiar with
35:59 – 36:03
downy mildew, it can cause, once
36:03 – 36:04
an infection, even when an
36:04 – 36:06
infection has stopped, if it's
36:06 – 36:07
already established itself and
36:07 – 36:08
colonized,
36:08 – 36:10
it will cause that part of the
36:10 – 36:11
leaf that it infected to die
36:11 – 36:13
out, to turn brown, to break
36:13 – 36:14
out. And so what ended up
36:14 – 36:16
happening is these plants ended
36:16 – 36:19
up losing over 80 % of their
36:19 – 36:21
leaf surface area, because all
36:21 – 36:23
of these infected spots dropped
36:23 – 36:24
down, the leaves were very
36:24 – 36:25
skeletonized.
36:25 – 36:28
So with that one application,
36:29 – 36:31
I found that the end of that
36:31 – 36:32
growing season, another two
36:32 – 36:34
months or so later, these plants
36:34 – 36:36
had anywhere from four to six
36:36 – 36:37
feet of new vine growth,
36:38 – 36:40
but it wasn't the quantity of
36:40 – 36:41
vine growth that
36:41 – 36:42
was impressive.
36:42 – 36:43
That was impressive, but what
36:43 – 36:44
was exceptionally impressive and
36:44 – 36:46
what really caught my attention
36:46 – 36:48
was that all of these leaves had
36:48 – 36:49
this thick,
36:50 – 36:50
glossy,
36:50 – 36:52
waxy sheen on the leaf surface.
36:52 – 36:54
They hadn't had it before that,
36:54 – 36:55
and they had it after that
36:55 – 36:56
application and going forward,
36:57 – 37:00
So this was only one
37:00 – 37:02
application, one spot at a time,
37:02 – 37:05
and it protected that plant for
37:05 – 37:06
the rest of the growing season.
37:07 – 37:09
That really caught my attention.
37:10 – 37:12
So as of this point, I'll just
37:12 – 37:13
flash forward to today.
37:13 – 37:15
We've now also tested it
37:15 – 37:17
extensively in 2025 growing
37:17 – 37:19
season. It's now registered as a
37:19 – 37:22
class 25B biocontrol product for
37:22 – 37:24
disease and for both bacterial
37:24 – 37:25
and fungal control in about, I
37:25 – 37:26
think it's currently registered
37:26 – 37:27
in about 30 states and the rest
37:27 – 37:28
are in progress.
37:30 – 37:32
As of this point, we've tested
37:32 – 37:33
it on close to three dozen
37:33 – 37:35
different disease and crop
37:35 – 37:37
combinations, both a few
37:37 – 37:38
bacterial diseases, but mostly
37:38 – 37:39
fungal diseases.
37:39 – 37:40
And it has outperformed
37:40 – 37:42
conventional fungicides in every
37:42 – 37:43
application,
37:43 – 37:44
every time that it's been tried.
37:45 – 37:46
And in
37:47 – 37:48
most of the applications, not
37:48 – 37:49
all, but in most of the
37:49 – 37:50
applications,
37:50 – 37:52
there was one or two
37:52 – 37:54
applications made at the
37:54 – 37:54
beginning of disease
37:54 – 37:56
susceptibility period, and it
37:56 – 37:57
lasted for the rest of the
37:57 – 37:58
growing season.
37:59 – 38:00
I'm pretty excited about that.
38:01 – 38:01
So
38:02 – 38:03
I want to talk about pinion,
38:03 – 38:04
just
38:04 – 38:06
its effectiveness.
38:07 – 38:09
There are three different macro
38:09 – 38:10
modes of action.
38:11 – 38:14
The first is that it has a very
38:14 – 38:15
strong reducing effect.
38:15 – 38:16
So if you're familiar with,
38:17 – 38:18
I've spoken in the past about
38:18 – 38:20
Olivier Hussain's research and
38:20 – 38:21
the paper that we published
38:21 – 38:22
where we spoke about the EHPH
38:22 – 38:25
terrain requirements of a
38:25 – 38:26
to express itself.
38:26 – 38:28
The short version is that a
38:28 – 38:30
foliar application opinion has a
38:30 – 38:32
very strong reducing effect that
38:33 – 38:34
very rapidly creates an
38:34 – 38:35
environment in which pathogens
38:35 – 38:37
can't express themselves.
38:37 – 38:39
So in terms of having a rapid,
38:39 – 38:40
immediate effect,
38:41 – 38:42
that is where that effect is
38:42 – 38:43
coming from. But the reality is
38:43 – 38:44
also that that effect doesn't
38:44 – 38:44
last very long.
38:45 – 38:46
Depends on how much oxidative
38:46 – 38:47
stress plants are under, but
38:47 – 38:48
that effect can last for as
38:48 – 38:50
little as 24 to 48 hours and
38:50 – 38:51
then it's gone.
38:53 – 38:56
The second effect is that
38:59 – 39:01
pinion stimulates.
39:01 – 39:02
It's not a food source.
39:03 – 39:04
It doesn't provide sugars,
39:04 – 39:05
doesn't provide carbon,
39:05 – 39:07
or if it does, it's incidental.
39:09 – 39:10
but it stimulates the microbiome
39:10 – 39:12
on the leaf surface to a
39:12 – 39:13
remarkable degree.
39:13 – 39:15
It's one of the most powerful
39:15 – 39:16
biostimulants that I've ever
39:16 – 39:17
observed. And I've tested many
39:17 – 39:18
over the years.
39:19 – 39:21
And so the microbiome on the
39:21 – 39:22
leaf surface changes
39:22 – 39:24
dramatically. And as nearly as
39:24 – 39:26
we can tell after this two years
39:26 – 39:27
of collecting data,
39:28 – 39:30
it stays changed for the rest of
39:30 – 39:31
the growing season.
39:32 – 39:33
And in the case of perennial
39:33 – 39:34
crops, even into the following
39:34 – 39:35
season.
39:36 – 39:38
The third effect that it has,
39:39 – 39:40
and this was one I was really
39:40 – 39:42
intrigued by this observation on
39:42 – 39:43
the grapevines,
39:45 – 39:48
it activates a number of
39:49 – 39:50
genetic immune pathways.
39:50 – 39:52
So we have mRNA activation.
39:53 – 39:55
This is an area that we still
39:55 – 39:56
need to do a lot more research
39:56 – 39:57
about. It's the area that we
39:57 – 39:58
know the least about.
39:59 – 40:00
But our
40:01 – 40:03
current understanding is that we
40:03 – 40:04
are activating
40:04 – 40:06
close to two dozen different
40:06 – 40:07
immune pathways, genetic
40:07 – 40:08
pathways,
40:08 – 40:10
and so this plant's immune
40:10 – 40:12
system just comes alive and
40:12 – 40:14
stays turned on.
40:15 – 40:16
This is the important piece.
40:16 – 40:17
So what we see happening, what
40:17 – 40:19
we saw happening with these
40:19 – 40:21
grapevines
40:23 – 40:25
is one application,
40:26 – 40:27
after the disease had been
40:27 – 40:28
present for a while,
40:28 – 40:29
triggered all of this new
40:29 – 40:31
growth, and this new growth had
40:31 – 40:32
completely different
40:32 – 40:33
characteristics from the
40:33 – 40:34
previous growth.
40:34 – 40:36
And that is an expression of a
40:36 – 40:37
change in genetic expression.
40:38 – 40:39
there was a change in genetic
40:39 – 40:41
expression as a result of immune
40:41 – 40:42
function being turned on and
40:42 – 40:43
having this glossy,
40:44 – 40:46
waxy surface on the leaves and a
40:46 – 40:48
completely different leaf
40:48 – 40:49
morphology, much more clearly
40:49 – 40:51
defined leaf edge
40:51 – 40:53
characteristics and leaf
40:53 – 40:53
serration.
40:54 – 40:56
So there were significant
40:56 – 40:58
changes in genetic expression of
40:58 – 41:00
that plant as a result of,
41:00 – 41:02
in part, I believe, of the
41:02 – 41:03
microbiome improvement.
41:05 – 41:06
Now,
41:05 – 41:07
if you think about what I just
41:07 – 41:08
said, those three different
41:08 – 41:10
modes of action, there's a very
41:10 – 41:10
important point here.
41:13 – 41:14
I am just
41:15 – 41:16
blown away, impressed with the
41:16 – 41:17
results that we've gotten from
41:17 – 41:18
Pinion so far.
41:18 – 41:20
If those level of results
41:20 – 41:21
continue into the future,
41:22 – 41:23
This is a product that can
41:23 – 41:24
replace 90 percent of fungicide
41:24 – 41:25
applications,
41:25 – 41:27
which is a very big deal because
41:27 – 41:29
fungicide applications in
41:29 – 41:31
contemporary agriculture are one
41:31 – 41:32
of the significant limiting
41:32 – 41:33
factors that are really
41:33 – 41:34
suppressing soil biology and
41:34 – 41:35
preventing systems from turning
41:35 – 41:36
around. So I'm very excited
41:36 – 41:37
about it from that perspective.
41:38 – 41:39
However,
41:39 – 41:40
we already know
41:41 – 41:41
that
41:42 – 41:44
all of the all of the modes of
41:44 – 41:46
action that I described are all
41:46 – 41:47
biological in nature,
41:48 – 41:50
which means your mileage will
41:50 – 41:51
vary.
41:53 – 41:54
Your mileage is going to vary.
41:55 – 41:56
If you have
41:56 – 41:58
different ecosystems with
41:58 – 41:59
different microbiomes and some
41:59 – 42:00
microbiomes that are much more
42:00 – 42:02
suppressed and soil microbiomes
42:02 – 42:03
that are very suppressed, you're
42:03 – 42:04
going to get a different
42:04 – 42:05
response.
42:05 – 42:08
So on some farms where one or
42:08 – 42:09
two applications might be
42:09 – 42:10
required for effective disease
42:10 – 42:11
control,
42:11 – 42:12
another operation might require
42:12 – 42:14
eight applications in the first
42:14 – 42:15
season.
42:15 – 42:16
I'm just making this up.
42:17 – 42:19
I'm just pointing this out to
42:19 – 42:20
say that there's a great deal
42:20 – 42:22
that we don't know about this
42:22 – 42:23
product.
42:23 – 42:25
What we do know is that it's
42:25 – 42:26
extremely impressive and very
42:26 – 42:27
exciting.
42:27 – 42:28
So I
42:28 – 42:29
wanted to talk about that
42:29 – 42:32
because I believe at
42:34 – 42:35
the foundation,
42:36 – 42:38
when we look at developing
42:38 – 42:38
agronomy,
42:40 – 42:41
From a biological perspective,
42:42 – 42:43
we need to have healthy,
42:44 – 42:45
vigorous, abundant soil
42:45 – 42:46
microbiomes.
42:47 – 42:47
And the
42:48 – 42:50
two greatest limiting factors
42:50 – 42:51
to,
42:51 – 42:52
what do you think are the two
42:52 – 42:53
greatest limiting factors to
42:53 – 42:54
soil biology generally on most
42:54 – 42:55
operations?
42:55 – 42:56
It's not tillage.
42:58 – 42:59
It's bare soil exposed to
42:59 – 43:00
sunlight
43:01 – 43:02
and fungicide applications.
43:04 – 43:04
Those two,
43:05 – 43:07
as far as I can determine from a
43:07 – 43:08
lot of experience and
43:08 – 43:09
observation and some data
43:09 – 43:10
collection,
43:10 – 43:12
those two have the most
43:12 – 43:13
detrimental effect on the soil
43:13 – 43:14
microbiome.
43:15 – 43:17
And having
43:17 – 43:19
bare soil exposed to the sun is
43:19 – 43:20
something that we can change
43:20 – 43:21
with
43:21 – 43:23
cover crop management, keeping
43:23 – 43:24
the soil covered and so forth.
43:25 – 43:27
But fungicide applications in a
43:27 – 43:28
transition period,
43:29 – 43:30
getting an effective replacement
43:30 – 43:31
alternative for fungicide
43:31 – 43:33
applications is a very important
43:33 – 43:34
piece. And so I'm quite excited
43:34 – 43:36
about the potential opinion.
43:38 – 43:38
So that's
43:39 – 43:40
a very long answer to your
43:40 – 43:41
question, Helen.
43:42 – 43:44
But it ties into your question
43:44 – 43:47
about the importance of mineral
43:47 – 43:48
applications because
43:49 – 43:51
The mineral foliar applications,
43:51 – 43:52
whether they be boron or
43:52 – 43:54
manganese or other elements,
43:56 – 43:57
one of the pieces that I've
43:57 – 43:58
found foundational over the
43:58 – 44:00
years is that in order for a
44:00 – 44:01
foliar application to be
44:01 – 44:02
effective at disease control,
44:03 – 44:04
it needs to be optimized or
44:04 – 44:05
needs to be balanced to increase
44:05 – 44:06
photosynthesis.
44:07 – 44:07
You do that
44:08 – 44:09
and the game changes.
44:10 – 44:12
And that's where so often the
44:12 – 44:13
boat is missed.
44:13 – 44:14
And so I'll just, I'll come back
44:14 – 44:15
again.
44:17 – 44:18
If there's two things that I
44:18 – 44:19
hope everyone does
44:20 – 44:21
following this conference,
44:23 – 44:24
I hope everyone increases their
44:24 – 44:25
boron levels,
44:25 – 44:26
and I hope everyone tries
44:26 – 44:27
pinion.
44:29 – 44:30
Because
44:30 – 44:32
I think those are the two
44:32 – 44:33
foundational pieces
44:33 – 44:34
two of the foundational pieces
44:34 – 44:35
that I've observed in the last
44:35 – 44:37
year to make significant changes
44:37 – 44:39
in how a crop responds and how a
44:39 – 44:40
crop performs.
44:40 – 44:42
And just to go back again and to
44:42 – 44:43
reiterate,
44:44 – 44:46
when we're looking at soil
44:46 – 44:47
analysis,
44:48 – 44:50
our desired levels of boron are
44:50 – 44:52
a minimum of three parts per
44:52 – 44:54
million and up to six to 10
44:54 – 44:55
parts per million.
44:56 – 44:56
And that is
44:58 – 45:00
five to 10 times higher than
45:00 – 45:01
most other common
45:01 – 45:02
recommendations.
45:02 – 45:03
But that is the threshold
45:03 – 45:04
required
45:05 – 45:06
For insect resistance, that's
45:06 – 45:08
the threshold required for high
45:08 – 45:09
BRX readings and high sugar
45:09 – 45:10
levels.
45:10 – 45:12
And that's also the threshold
45:12 – 45:13
where we see peak yield response
45:13 – 45:15
as a result of better calcium
45:15 – 45:16
metabolism.
45:17 – 45:18
All right.
45:18 – 45:19
Yes.
45:18 – 45:19
Could I give an example of
45:19 – 45:20
annual crop
45:21 – 45:22
things that you're seeing with
45:22 – 45:23
any?
45:23 – 45:24
Could I give an example?
45:24 – 45:25
You're referring to pinyon?
45:26 – 45:27
Could I give an example of
45:27 – 45:30
annual crops where we've tested?
45:30 – 45:31
Well, it's been,
45:31 – 45:33
we've tested it on onions, on
45:33 – 45:34
cantaloupe, on tomatoes.
45:35 – 45:37
Tomatoes we tested it on early
45:37 – 45:38
blight, septoria.
45:38 – 45:40
Cercospora leaf spot
45:40 – 45:41
the
45:42 – 45:43
list it's quite an extensive
45:43 – 45:46
list at this point and
45:46 – 45:48
We
45:48 – 45:50
had one application on
45:51 – 45:53
Downy and powdery mildew on a
45:53 – 45:54
cantaloupe crop
45:54 – 45:55
that
45:55 – 45:58
The grower reported back that
45:59 – 46:01
his words were that it wasn't
46:01 – 46:02
really successful,
46:02 – 46:04
but it wasn't not successful
46:04 – 46:05
because of the product, it's
46:05 – 46:07
because it was applied too late
46:07 – 46:08
and the plants had already
46:07 – 46:08
declined too far.
46:10 – 46:12
We had one application on
46:12 – 46:14
cherries. Actually, this is an
46:14 – 46:15
important point.
46:15 – 46:16
I'm glad we're having this
46:16 – 46:17
discussion.
46:17 – 46:18
We had one application, it was a
46:18 – 46:20
repeat application in cherries
46:20 – 46:23
in Utah that was less
46:23 – 46:24
successful than many of the
46:24 – 46:25
other applications we saw.
46:25 – 46:26
We still had,
46:26 – 46:28
A three times application,
46:28 – 46:30
this was very severe, very
46:30 – 46:31
intense powdery mildew pressure.
46:31 – 46:33
Three applications of pinion
46:33 – 46:36
at the conclusion of the trial
46:36 – 46:38
had 5 % less powdery mildew than
46:38 – 46:40
five applications of a
46:40 – 46:41
fungicide. So I still thought
46:41 – 46:44
that was some level of success.
46:44 – 46:45
But the reason for the more
46:45 – 46:46
limited success,
46:47 – 46:48
we believe,
46:48 – 46:52
is because we found out halfway
46:52 – 46:53
through the trial, the treatment
46:53 – 46:54
or more than halfway through,
46:54 – 46:55
that
46:55 – 46:57
the product was being tank mixed
46:57 – 46:58
with elemental sulfur,
46:58 – 46:59
powdered sulfur.
46:59 – 47:00
And so
47:00 – 47:02
one of the mechanisms or the
47:02 – 47:03
modes of action of
47:04 – 47:05
that initial 24 to 48 hour
47:05 – 47:06
strong burst is to have a very
47:06 – 47:07
strong reducing effect.
47:07 – 47:09
And you destroy that if you tank
47:09 – 47:11
mix it with an oxidizer, which
47:11 – 47:12
is elemental sulfur.
47:13 – 47:14
So
47:13 – 47:15
yeah,
47:16 – 47:17
we're still learning about it,
47:17 – 47:18
but quite excited.
47:18 – 47:19
You had a question as well?
47:19 – 47:20
Yeah,
47:20 – 47:21
what's your experience?
47:38 – 47:39
That's about five questions in
47:39 – 47:40
one.
47:42 – 47:44
So the question was, do I have a
47:44 – 47:46
perspective or opinion on
47:49 – 47:50
natural
47:51 – 47:54
on -farm microbial brew
47:54 – 47:55
development such as JADAM or
47:55 – 47:57
Corian farming or those
47:57 – 47:58
approaches
47:58 – 47:59
and you're
48:00 – 48:01
another question about calcium
48:01 – 48:02
and phosphorus, foliar versus
48:02 – 48:03
soil.
48:10 – 48:11
All right, so the
48:12 – 48:12
caveat here,
48:14 – 48:15
I do not have,
48:16 – 48:17
I have very limited experiences
48:17 – 48:18
with
48:19 – 48:21
those types of extractions for
48:23 – 48:24
the very simple reason that many
48:24 – 48:26
of the farmers that we work with
48:26 – 48:27
and where we do a lot of data
48:27 – 48:28
collection on what is actually
48:28 – 48:30
happening, what's going on,
48:30 – 48:31
don't have the bandwidth or
48:32 – 48:33
the labor resources.
48:33 – 48:34
Labor is too expensive for them
48:34 – 48:35
to create their own.
48:36 – 48:36
And so,
48:37 – 48:37
I don't have a lot of
48:37 – 48:38
experience.
48:39 – 48:41
What I know about those types of
48:41 – 48:44
extractions and microbial
48:44 – 48:44
products, I
48:45 – 48:47
expect that they have the
48:47 – 48:47
ability for,
48:48 – 48:50
they have the capacity to be
48:50 – 48:50
very valuable.
48:53 – 48:54
There are,
48:59 – 49:00
I first
49:01 – 49:05
became aware of the weakness of
49:07 – 49:10
producing on -farm microbes
49:10 – 49:12
from the perspective of compost
49:13 – 49:14
compost tea extracts and so
49:14 – 49:16
forth from the respective of
49:16 – 49:18
mycorrhizal fungi, because there
49:18 – 49:19
are many growers who are saying,
49:19 – 49:20
oh, well,
49:20 – 49:21
I'm using compost tea.
49:22 – 49:23
I'm making my own compost tea.
49:23 – 49:24
It's very high quality compost.
49:24 – 49:26
And therefore, this is the most
49:26 – 49:27
comprehensive, the most
49:27 – 49:28
complete, the most thorough
49:28 – 49:31
microbiome. We're getting much
49:31 – 49:32
greater benefits because we have
49:32 – 49:33
a much greater diversity of
49:33 – 49:34
species than if we're purchasing
49:34 – 49:35
an oculant with 20 different
49:35 – 49:36
species in it.
49:37 – 49:38
And that
49:39 – 49:40
is not true.
49:42 – 49:43
The diversity of species is
49:43 – 49:44
true.
49:46 – 49:48
I'm of the persuasion that no
49:48 – 49:49
compost,
49:50 – 49:51
tea extract,
49:51 – 49:53
or other types of on -farm brood
49:53 – 49:54
microbe extracts
49:55 – 49:56
be complete in the sense that
49:56 – 49:57
plant needs it.
49:58 – 50:00
For the very simple reason that,
50:01 – 50:03
and I need to, this data and
50:03 – 50:04
information is changing all the
50:04 – 50:07
time, but about a year or so
50:07 – 50:08
ago, maybe it was two years ago
50:08 – 50:09
at this point,
50:09 – 50:10
a very prestigious
50:10 – 50:12
microbiologist told me, John,
50:13 – 50:16
90 % of all the microbes in soil
50:17 – 50:19
can only be propagated in the
50:19 – 50:20
presence of living plant roots.
50:21 – 50:23
We cannot propagate them in the
50:23 – 50:24
lab,
50:24 – 50:25
We can't propagate them in a
50:25 – 50:26
compost pile. You can't
50:26 – 50:28
propagate them in any other type
50:28 – 50:28
of environment.
50:28 – 50:30
They can only be propagated in
50:30 – 50:32
the presence of living plant
50:32 – 50:32
roots.
50:33 – 50:35
So I would suggest that if we
50:35 – 50:37
want to do on -farm microbial
50:37 – 50:38
inoculant development,
50:39 – 50:42
let's use compost tea extract as
50:42 – 50:43
an example. If we're using
50:43 – 50:44
Johnson Sue compost,
50:44 – 50:45
the number of the persuasion
50:45 – 50:47
that the next stage,
50:47 – 50:49
either at the conclusion or the
50:49 – 50:50
latter part of that Johnson Sue
50:50 – 50:51
compost development,
50:52 – 50:54
we should plant
50:54 – 50:56
plants from dozens of different
50:56 – 50:58
plant families into that mix
50:59 – 51:02
and grow large vigorous root
51:02 – 51:04
systems and colonize that entire
51:04 – 51:05
compost with the diversity of
51:05 – 51:07
microbes that are coming from
51:07 – 51:08
those root systems.
51:08 – 51:10
And then we can propagate
51:10 – 51:11
mycorrhizal fungi and we can
51:11 – 51:12
propagate all of these other
51:12 – 51:13
organisms that are vectored by
51:13 – 51:15
the seeds that don't show up in
51:15 – 51:16
the compost pile on its own.
51:17 – 51:18
Or you can keep life simple and
51:18 – 51:19
buy BioCoat Gold.
51:22 – 51:22
So
51:22 – 51:24
that's
51:24 – 51:27
my kind of macro theoretical
51:27 – 51:28
answer.
51:28 – 51:29
but I don't have experience with
51:29 – 51:31
JADAM specifically on scale.
51:32 – 51:34
And to your second question
51:34 – 51:36
on foliar applications of
51:36 – 51:38
vinegar -extracted phosphorus
51:38 – 51:39
and calcium,
51:43 – 51:44
when
51:44 – 51:47
foliar applications are well
51:47 – 51:49
-designed and when soil and
51:49 – 51:50
plant ecosystems are well
51:50 – 51:51
-designed, reasonably well,
51:51 – 51:52
there are many instances where
51:52 – 51:54
we put on a foliar application
51:54 – 51:56
of a nutrient and
51:56 – 51:58
we get a disproportionate
51:58 – 51:59
response.
51:59 – 52:00
So
51:59 – 52:02
we put on, we might put on, I'm
52:02 – 52:03
making up
52:03 – 52:05
hypothetical examples here, we
52:05 – 52:07
might put on five ounces per
52:07 – 52:08
acre of calcium,
52:09 – 52:11
but the quantity of calcium when
52:11 – 52:12
you combine the
52:12 – 52:14
increased plant growth,
52:14 – 52:15
increased plant biomass,
52:15 – 52:17
with the increased calcium
52:17 – 52:18
content,
52:18 – 52:19
the quantity of calcium that is
52:19 – 52:21
present in the crop is now a
52:21 – 52:22
hundred X what you actually
52:22 – 52:23
applied.
52:23 – 52:25
And that is because if the
52:25 – 52:26
product applied is well
52:26 – 52:27
designed,
52:27 – 52:29
it increases overall plant
52:29 – 52:30
photosynthesis, it has a trigger
52:30 – 52:31
effect,
52:31 – 52:34
and the plant and the microbiome
52:34 – 52:35
is effective at extracting more
52:35 – 52:37
of that nutrient from the soil
52:37 – 52:38
profile, assuming that it's
52:38 – 52:39
present and available.
52:40 – 52:41
So from
52:42 – 52:43
that triggering perspective,
52:45 – 52:47
Small applications of nutrients
52:47 – 52:49
as foliars can be very
52:49 – 52:49
effective.
52:49 – 52:52
However, when the system is very
52:52 – 52:54
challenged, when we have very
52:54 – 52:55
poor soil biology, if we're at
52:55 – 52:57
very early stages of a
52:57 – 52:58
turnaround situation,
52:58 – 53:01
often the quantity of nutrients
53:01 – 53:03
that is required to produce a
53:03 – 53:05
crop response early is bigger
53:05 – 53:06
than the quantity that's
53:06 – 53:07
required later.
53:08 – 53:09
Does that make sense?
53:10 – 53:13
My one critique of the vinegar
53:13 – 53:14
extracts would be that the
53:14 – 53:16
quantity of nutrients contained
53:16 – 53:18
is usually actually quite low.
53:18 – 53:20
And that might be much more
53:20 – 53:22
effective later on in the
53:22 – 53:23
regeneration process than it
53:23 – 53:24
might be early on.
53:24 – 53:25
So that's it.
53:26 – 53:27
Any other questions?
53:27 – 53:28
Yes.
53:31 – 53:32
I
53:32 – 53:35
missed
53:37 – 53:38
part of your question.
53:38 – 53:39
Have I found a way to decompact
53:39 – 53:40
soils without what?
53:45 – 53:46
Have
53:48 – 53:51
I found a way to decompact soils
53:51 – 53:53
without having a proper ratio of
53:53 – 53:54
cations?
53:55 – 53:57
Calcium, magnesium balance, and
53:57 – 53:58
so forth.
54:00 – 54:01
Yes, there is one way.
54:03 – 54:04
Two
54:04 – 54:05
ways, actually,
54:07 – 54:08
that I'm aware of.
54:09 – 54:10
The one pathway
54:11 – 54:12
is
54:13 – 54:16
simply having and building very
54:16 – 54:17
large quantities of organic
54:17 – 54:18
matter.
54:18 – 54:20
So if you have, as you build up
54:20 – 54:21
organic matter to
54:23 – 54:24
levels and depends a bit on your
54:24 – 54:26
soil's clay context and clay
54:26 – 54:27
profile. I'm assuming you have
54:27 – 54:29
very high heavy clay soils.
54:31 – 54:32
High organic matter.
54:35 – 54:36
What was the first part of your
54:36 – 54:37
question or
54:37 – 54:38
first part of your response?
54:42 – 54:43
So it's a sandy loam to loam
54:43 – 54:44
soils. Well, why would you not
54:44 – 54:45
want to balance nutrients on a
54:45 – 54:46
calcium to magnesium ratios on a
54:46 – 54:47
sandy loam soil?
54:52 – 54:53
What is your total CEC?
54:56 – 54:57
Okay, now hang on a minute.
54:57 – 54:59
Now you're grinding my gears
54:59 – 55:01
here. You have a sandy loam soil
55:01 – 55:02
with 25 to 30 CEC.
55:02 – 55:03
Those things are usually
55:03 – 55:04
mutually exclusive.
55:05 – 55:06
Okay,
55:07 – 55:07
got it.
55:08 – 55:09
So
55:12 – 55:13
I was once on a soil,
55:14 – 55:16
saw a soil analysis that said 40
55:16 – 55:18
% base saturation magnesium, and
55:18 – 55:19
my comment was that, oh, this
55:19 – 55:20
soil must be very compact.
55:21 – 55:22
And the farmer said, I don't
55:22 – 55:23
think so.
55:23 – 55:25
And he had 12 % organic matter.
55:30 – 55:31
The other
55:34 – 55:35
observation that I've seen is
55:35 – 55:37
when we have soils that have
55:37 – 55:39
very high and
55:39 – 55:41
very active mycorrhizal fungi
55:41 – 55:42
activity.
55:42 – 55:44
And in the conversation with
55:44 – 55:45
Gabe Brown yesterday,
55:46 – 55:48
in Rick Clark's session, we had
55:48 – 55:49
an interesting,
55:49 – 55:50
Gabe raised a very interesting
55:50 – 55:52
point, a very important point,
55:52 – 55:54
that it's not
55:54 – 55:57
adequate for us, if we want to
55:57 – 55:58
talk about building soil
55:58 – 55:59
aggregate structure, it's not
55:59 – 56:01
enough to just look at total
56:01 – 56:02
fungal populations, we need to
56:02 – 56:03
understand
56:03 – 56:05
what is our mycorrhizal fungi
56:05 – 56:07
population versus our
56:07 – 56:08
saprophytic fungi population.
56:08 – 56:09
So your saprophytes are your
56:09 – 56:10
decomposers. They're going to
56:10 – 56:14
decompose your non -living plant
56:14 – 56:14
residue.
56:15 – 56:18
And the saprophytes have a
56:18 – 56:20
much more limited effect on
56:20 – 56:22
building stable soil aggregates.
56:23 – 56:24
It's really the mycorrhizal
56:24 – 56:25
fungi that are the most
56:25 – 56:26
effective at building stable
56:26 – 56:26
soil aggregates.
56:27 – 56:29
So you can build stable soil
56:29 – 56:30
aggregates
56:32 – 56:34
even when you have a more
56:34 – 56:35
imbalanced calcium to magnesium
56:35 – 56:36
ratio.
56:36 – 56:38
But I'll add one more point.
56:39 – 56:40
You
56:40 – 56:41
have sandy
56:41 – 56:45
loam soils with 25 to 30 CECs.
56:49 – 56:50
Okay.
56:52 – 56:53
Out of curiosity, what are your
56:53 – 56:54
potassium levels?
56:59 – 57:01
So around 2 % base saturation in
57:01 – 57:02
a loam soil, you're looking at
57:02 – 57:04
300 to 400 parts per million.
57:06 – 57:06
Okay.
57:07 – 57:08
So
57:11 – 57:12
there are,
57:13 – 57:14
in the scenario that you're
57:14 – 57:15
describing,
57:17 – 57:19
you have heavy soils that have
57:19 – 57:20
large mineral reserves.
57:21 – 57:23
And there is an element, I don't
57:23 – 57:24
have the chemistry
57:24 – 57:26
at
57:26 – 57:28
the tip of my tongue to describe
57:28 – 57:29
this in detail right now, nor do
57:29 – 57:30
we have the time,
57:31 – 57:32
but there is an element of
57:33 – 57:34
soil flocculation.
57:35 – 57:37
flocculating clays, not just
57:37 – 57:39
being an expression of total
57:39 – 57:41
magnesium and calcium content
57:41 – 57:42
alone. It's not just the total
57:42 – 57:44
content. There is also a
57:44 – 57:45
reflection of availability.
57:47 – 57:50
And the one observation
57:50 – 57:51
that I've found very intriguing
57:51 – 57:52
is
57:53 – 57:54
in situations such as the one
57:54 – 57:56
that you're describing where we
57:56 – 57:57
have very heavy soils,
57:57 – 57:59
it's economically unfeasible in
57:59 – 58:01
many cases to put on enough
58:01 – 58:02
limestone
58:02 – 58:04
to compensate and to bring the
58:04 – 58:06
calcium magnesium ratio into the
58:06 – 58:06
desired balance.
58:07 – 58:09
And so our approach has been to
58:09 – 58:11
put on limited
58:11 – 58:14
amounts of very fine limestone.
58:15 – 58:16
It can be
58:17 – 58:19
I want to see a minimum of 200
58:19 – 58:20
mesh particle size.
58:20 – 58:22
It can be pelletized and
58:22 – 58:25
applications as low as 30 to 50
58:25 – 58:26
pounds per acre.
58:26 – 58:28
I like to be in the 100 to 200
58:28 – 58:29
pounds per acre range,
58:29 – 58:31
but applications as low as 30 to
58:31 – 58:32
50 pounds per acre applied at
58:32 – 58:35
planting as a fertilizer in a
58:35 – 58:36
drill or something like that can
58:36 – 58:39
have a tremendous effect on the
58:39 – 58:40
crop and it has a tremendous
58:40 – 58:42
effect on soil flocculation in
58:42 – 58:43
that zone.
58:46 – 58:48
So there is this reflection,
58:48 – 58:50
this response to calcium
58:50 – 58:52
availability that can last for a
58:52 – 58:53
several year period that is an
58:53 – 58:54
economical pathway.
58:54 – 58:55
You're not trying to change the
58:55 – 58:56
bulk solar environment,
58:56 – 58:57
but you're changing what is
58:57 – 58:59
happening in that rhizosphere
58:59 – 59:00
that can produce very positive
59:00 – 59:01
crop responses.
59:02 – 59:03
You're going to cut me off?
59:04 – 59:05
One more question?
59:05 – 59:06
All right, I'll go over here.
59:20 – 59:21
Oh,
59:22 – 59:24
so this is no, yeah, this is a
59:24 – 59:24
follow up question to our
59:24 – 59:26
earlier conversation where I
59:26 – 59:27
mentioned 40 units of nitrogen
59:27 – 59:28
and 20 units of sulfur as a
59:28 – 59:30
beginning at planting as a
59:30 – 59:30
plant. thiosulfate.
59:31 – 59:32
And what I intended to
59:32 – 59:33
communicate, I may not have been
59:33 – 59:34
clear,
59:34 – 59:36
was I prefer to get the sulfur
59:36 – 59:38
from ammonium thiosulfate and
59:38 – 59:39
then adding other forms of
59:39 – 59:40
nitrogen. You can just add more
59:40 – 59:42
ammonium sulfate and add more
59:42 – 59:43
than 20 units of sulfur if you
59:43 – 59:45
want, or you can add urea or you
59:45 – 59:46
can add UAN or something else.
59:47 – 59:48
So yeah, that was what I
59:48 – 59:49
intended to communicate.
59:50 – 59:51
All right, I wanna say thank you
59:51 – 59:52
all. Thank you all for being
59:52 – 59:53
here.
59:59 – 1:00:01
I'm sure there are many follow
1:00:01 – 1:00:02
-up questions that I didn't get
1:00:02 – 1:00:03
to. I'm intending to, as much as
1:00:03 – 1:00:05
possible, spend my time at the
1:00:05 – 1:00:06
AEA exhibit on the trade show
1:00:06 – 1:00:07
floor, so I'm going to be out
1:00:07 – 1:00:08
there if you have any follow -up
1:00:08 – 1:00:09
questions.
1:00:10 – 1:00:11
The team at AEA and I are
1:00:11 – 1:00:13
dedicated to bringing this show
1:00:13 – 1:00:14
to you because we believe that
1:00:14 – 1:00:16
knowledge and information is the
1:00:16 – 1:00:18
foundation of successful
1:00:18 – 1:00:19
regenerative systems.
1:00:20 – 1:00:22
At AEA, we believe that growing
1:00:22 – 1:00:24
better quality food and making
1:00:24 – 1:00:25
more money from your crops is
1:00:25 – 1:00:26
possible.
1:00:26 – 1:00:28
And since 2006, we've worked
1:00:28 – 1:00:29
with leading professional
1:00:29 – 1:00:30
growers to help them do just
1:00:30 – 1:00:31
that.
1:00:31 – 1:00:33
At AEA, we don't guess.
1:00:33 – 1:00:35
We test. We analyze.
1:00:35 – 1:00:37
And we provide recommendations
1:00:37 – 1:00:38
based on scientific data,
1:00:39 – 1:00:40
knowledge, and experience.
1:00:40 – 1:00:41
We've developed products that
1:00:41 – 1:00:43
are uniquely positioned to help
1:00:43 – 1:00:44
growers make more money with
1:00:44 – 1:00:45
regenerative agriculture.
1:00:46 – 1:00:47
If you are a professional grower
1:00:47 – 1:00:49
who believes in testing instead
1:00:49 – 1:00:50
of guessing,
1:00:51 – 1:00:52
someone who believes in a
1:00:52 – 1:00:53
better, more regenerative way to
1:00:53 – 1:00:54
grow,
1:00:54 – 1:00:57
visit advancingecoag .com and
1:00:57 – 1:00:58
contact us to see if AEA is
1:00:58 – 1:00:59
right for you.
