In this Podcast Extra episode, John Kempf delivers his keynote address from “The Quality Edge: Market Differentiation Through Regenerative Wine Growing,” an event hosted by Grgich Hills Estate in Rutherford, California. Speaking to an audience of professional wine growers, John explores how regenerative agriculture is becoming the ultimate differentiator in a crowded global market. He details how focusing on soil biology and plant physiology not only restores ecosystems but drives the production of wines with distinct character and superior quality that today’s consumers demand.
Key Topics Discussed:
Why wine grapes are one of the few crops where microbiome integrity translates directly to harvest quality and financial return.
The “Rhizophagy Cycle” and how plant roots absorb entire microbial cells to extract nutrients.
Recent discoveries that microbes act as “truckers”, transporting lipids and nutrients into plants before returning to the soil.
The concept of “quorum sensing” and how microbial communities behave as a superorganism once they reach a critical threshold of diversity.
How trees and plants demonstrate intelligence and support one another through fungal networks, including the “Mother Tree” concept.
The three major suppressors of soil biology: bare soil, high-salt fertilizers, and synthetic fungicides.
Why synthetic fungicides are often more damaging to soil structure and biology than tillage or herbicides.
Introduction to Pinion, a new biocontrol product from AEA that influences plant redox environments and activates immune pathways.
The critical role of Manganese and Boron as bottlenecks for photosynthesis and sugar translocation.
Additional ResourcesTo learn more about Pinion, please visit: https://advancingecoag.com/product/pinion/
About John Kempf
John Kempf is the founder of Advancing Eco Agriculture (AEA). A top expert in biological and regenerative farming, John founded AEA in 2006 to help fellow farmers by providing the education, tools, and strategies that will have a global effect on the food supply and those who grow it.
Through intense study and the knowledge gleaned from many industry leaders, John is building a comprehensive systems-based approach to plant nutrition – a system solidly based on the sciences of plant physiology, mineral nutrition, and soil microbiology.
Support For This Show & Helping You Grow
Since 2006, AEA has been on a mission to help growers become more resilient, efficient, and profitable with regenerative agriculture.
AEA works directly with growers to apply its unique line of liquid mineral crop nutrition products and biological inoculants. Informed by cutting-edge plant and soil data-gathering techniques, AEA’s science-based programs empower farm operations to meet the crop quality markers that matter the most.
AEA has created real and lasting change on millions of acres with its products and data-driven services by working hand-in-hand with growers to produce healthier soil, stronger crops, and higher profits.
Beyond working on the ground with growers, AEA leads in regenerative agriculture media and education, producing and distributing the popular and highly-regarded Regenerative Agriculture Podcast, inspiring webinars, and other educational content that serve as go-to resources for growers worldwide.
Learn more about AEA’s regenerative programs and products: https://www.advancingecoag.com
Podcast Transcript
0:00 – 0:01
So, Ivo, thank you for your very
0:01 – 0:03
warm hospitality, for opening
0:03 – 0:06
your location to hosting us,
0:07 – 0:08
and
0:08 – 0:10
thank you all for all of you
0:10 – 0:11
being here. You know, there's a
0:11 – 0:12
part of me that
0:12 – 0:15
I recognize that there's an
0:16 – 0:18
almost complete certainty that
0:18 – 0:19
every person in this room knows
0:19 – 0:21
more about wine grape production
0:21 – 0:21
than I do.
0:22 – 0:24
So, why am I up here?
0:28 – 0:30
There are a number of pieces.
0:31 – 0:33
We've had a lot of fun working
0:33 – 0:34
with Ivo, working with Greg
0:34 – 0:36
Pennyroyal, and others here in
0:36 – 0:38
the room as well over the last
0:38 – 0:39
half a dozen years or more.
0:40 – 0:41
And we've
0:42 – 0:44
really enjoyed working with wine
0:44 – 0:45
grape producers because we were
0:45 – 0:46
just having a conversation here
0:46 – 0:47
a little bit before we got
0:47 – 0:48
started.
0:49 – 0:50
And I made the comment that
0:50 – 0:52
there are, in our experience,
0:52 – 0:53
there are three groups
0:53 – 0:54
of
0:55 – 0:57
producers. of growers who have a
0:57 – 0:59
more sophisticated understanding
0:59 – 1:00
of plant physiology and plant
1:00 – 1:01
management than anyone else that
1:01 – 1:02
we get to work with.
1:03 – 1:04
Those are the wine grape
1:04 – 1:05
growers,
1:05 – 1:06
the giant pumpkin growers,
1:07 – 1:08
and the cannabis growers.
1:09 – 1:11
Those three groups dig deeply
1:11 – 1:12
into understanding plant
1:12 – 1:14
physiology, and I'm sure that
1:14 – 1:15
the
1:15 – 1:16
possibilities of addiction have
1:16 – 1:18
nothing to do with any of those
1:18 – 1:18
three.
1:21 – 1:22
But the,
1:23 – 1:25
you know, wine grapes are one of
1:25 – 1:27
the very few crops that actually
1:27 – 1:28
gets paid for producing quality,
1:30 – 1:30
and
1:31 – 1:33
They're also one of the very few
1:33 – 1:35
crops that has,
1:37 – 1:38
I shouldn't say the few crops,
1:38 – 1:40
but wine grape production has
1:40 – 1:41
one of the most direct
1:41 – 1:44
analogs or the most direct
1:44 – 1:46
transfers between the integrity
1:46 – 1:47
of the microbiome that is in the
1:47 – 1:50
soil and the final harvest, the
1:50 – 1:51
quality of the final harvest
1:51 – 1:52
itself.
1:52 – 1:54
There are very few crops who
1:54 – 1:55
have that direct of a
1:55 – 1:55
connection.
1:56 – 1:57
And so
1:59 – 2:01
it is, intriguing to think about
2:01 – 2:02
what
2:02 – 2:04
has happened with agriculture
2:04 – 2:07
and agronomy over the last seven
2:07 – 2:08
or eight decades
2:08 – 2:11
is, as we well know, agronomy
2:11 – 2:12
and contemporary agricultural
2:12 – 2:14
practices have completely
2:14 – 2:15
divorced plant
2:15 – 2:17
production from biology.
2:17 – 2:18
We've taken a very chemistry
2:18 – 2:22
-centric perspective to growing
2:22 – 2:23
crops, and we've thought about
2:23 – 2:24
plant nutrition in terms of
2:24 – 2:25
nitrogen and phosphorus and
2:25 – 2:26
calcium and manganese and so
2:26 – 2:28
forth without considering
2:28 – 2:28
biology.
2:29 – 2:30
And yet,
2:31 – 2:33
it is that exact biology we now
2:33 – 2:34
are understanding very clearly,
2:34 – 2:37
that it is that biology that
2:37 – 2:39
delivers terroir,
2:39 – 2:40
that delivers quality, that
2:40 – 2:42
delivers flavor and complexity.
2:43 – 2:43
But the challenge,
2:44 – 2:46
kind of the foundational
2:46 – 2:47
challenge of regenerative
2:47 – 2:49
agriculture and this approach to
2:49 – 2:50
taking a biology -centric
2:50 – 2:51
approach,
2:51 – 2:52
if we had to compress it all
2:52 – 2:55
down to one challenge, it's
2:55 – 2:55
simply this.
2:56 – 2:58
How do we grow plants and
2:58 – 3:00
provide nutrition with biology
3:03 – 3:04
Let me see if I can rephrase
3:04 – 3:05
this or reframe this.
3:06 – 3:08
How can we provide adequate
3:08 – 3:09
nutrition without suppressing
3:09 – 3:10
biology?
3:10 – 3:12
Because mainstream agricultural
3:12 – 3:14
approaches are about supplying
3:14 – 3:16
nutrition in the forms of
3:16 – 3:18
fertilizers and soil oxidation
3:18 – 3:19
with tillage and so forth.
3:20 – 3:21
And they all have the effect of
3:21 – 3:22
suppressing soil biology,
3:23 – 3:24
the exact thing that we desire
3:24 – 3:25
to optimize.
3:26 – 3:27
And so this is kind of the
3:27 – 3:29
nucleus, the foundation bottom
3:29 – 3:31
line, is how do we develop an
3:31 – 3:32
agronomic approach
3:32 – 3:33
that
3:34 – 3:35
provides plants with all the
3:35 – 3:37
nutrition they need and enhances
3:37 – 3:38
biology at the same time.
3:39 – 3:40
That's the foundational essence.
3:40 – 3:42
We can figure that piece out.
3:42 – 3:43
Everything else flows from there
3:43 – 3:44
all on its own.
3:46 – 3:48
One of the experiences that
3:48 – 3:51
really caused me to question
3:51 – 3:52
what I was learning about plant
3:52 – 3:55
nutrition was watching,
3:56 – 3:58
observing tree growth at
3:58 – 4:00
a park that's about 10 or 15
4:00 – 4:01
miles from where I grew up.
4:02 – 4:04
So we're not far from the
4:04 – 4:06
border, the glaciation border,
4:06 – 4:08
about 15 miles or so from where
4:08 – 4:09
I grew up.
4:09 – 4:10
We have a small local park
4:10 – 4:12
that's called Nelson Ledges
4:12 – 4:12
State Park.
4:13 – 4:14
And Nelson Legis,
4:14 – 4:16
the glaciers drop this large
4:16 – 4:19
sheet of rock that's about 15 to
4:19 – 4:21
18 feet thick, and it covers
4:21 – 4:22
about 10 to 15 acres.
4:23 – 4:24
There's just a single sheet of
4:24 – 4:25
rock. And now,
4:25 – 4:27
of course, as the sheet of rock
4:27 – 4:28
was dropped, it cracked and
4:28 – 4:30
broke up, and there's fissures
4:30 – 4:31
and cracks and crannies where
4:31 – 4:33
young boys can jump across and
4:33 – 4:34
go crawl in between and have all
4:34 – 4:35
kinds of fun with.
4:38 – 4:39
Luckily, our mothers never got
4:39 – 4:40
to see.
4:42 – 4:44
But what was fascinating to me
4:44 – 4:45
was
4:46 – 4:48
is here we have this
4:49 – 4:49
flat,
4:50 – 4:52
this bare sheet of rock.
4:52 – 4:53
There is no topsoil.
4:54 – 4:56
There never has been topsoil.
4:58 – 5:00
And we have trees growing out
5:00 – 5:01
the surface of the rock and on
5:01 – 5:02
the edges. And there's these
5:02 – 5:04
tree roots going all down along
5:04 – 5:05
the edges of the rocks and these
5:05 – 5:07
trees are solidly attached.
5:08 – 5:10
And there are oak trees and
5:10 – 5:11
hickory trees and maple trees,
5:11 – 5:12
your typical eastern hardwood
5:12 – 5:14
forest. The trees are anywhere
5:14 – 5:16
from 12 to 24 inches in
5:16 – 5:18
diameter. These are not small
5:18 – 5:19
trees and they do not look to be
5:19 – 5:20
deprived of nutrients.
5:21 – 5:22
They have very large leaves,
5:22 – 5:23
very healthy canopy.
5:25 – 5:27
And I had always imagined
5:27 – 5:28
that
5:29 – 5:31
these trees must be getting
5:31 – 5:32
relatively poor nutrition and
5:32 – 5:33
not growing very rapidly.
5:35 – 5:36
There were several trees that
5:36 – 5:36
were right on the edge of the
5:36 – 5:40
rock sheet that were growing at
5:40 – 5:41
an angle.
5:41 – 5:43
and we used to walk out or climb
5:43 – 5:45
out those tree trunks and drop
5:45 – 5:46
down the 10 to 12 feet.
5:47 – 5:48
Well the park didn't consider
5:48 – 5:49
that to be a safe activity so
5:49 – 5:50
there's
5:50 – 5:51
was to cut those tree trunks
5:51 – 5:52
off.
5:52 – 5:53
So I started looking at the tree
5:53 – 5:55
trunks. There are tree trunks
5:55 – 5:56
that are 12, 16 inches in
5:56 – 5:57
diameter, and their growth rings
5:57 – 5:59
are every bit as large as the
5:59 – 6:00
growth rings in the forest or
6:00 – 6:00
where the trees are growing in
6:00 – 6:01
soil.
6:03 – 6:04
And that,
6:04 – 6:06
as you might imagine, started
6:06 – 6:07
asking lots of questions.
6:07 – 6:08
Well, where are these trees
6:08 – 6:10
getting their nutrients from?
6:10 – 6:11
Where's the calcium and the
6:11 – 6:12
magnesium and the phosphorus and
6:12 – 6:13
the potassium coming from to
6:13 – 6:15
grow trees of this size?
6:16 – 6:17
and at this rate of growth
6:17 – 6:19
because supposedly these
6:20 – 6:21
trees should be nutritionally
6:21 – 6:22
deficient.
6:22 – 6:24
And since that observation, this
6:24 – 6:25
is now 25 years ago,
6:26 – 6:27
I've
6:28 – 6:29
observed trees
6:29 – 6:32
in many different locations
6:32 – 6:33
throughout Canada, throughout
6:33 – 6:34
the Rockies.
6:34 – 6:36
We have many instances of
6:36 – 6:39
substantial tree growth where
6:39 – 6:41
there is no topsoil and there
6:41 – 6:43
has never been topsoil.
6:44 – 6:45
And while
6:45 – 6:47
that leads to a few interesting
6:47 – 6:47
observations,
6:48 – 6:49
one of them
6:49 – 6:51
is the realization that when we
6:51 – 6:54
measure dry matter of a plant,
6:55 – 6:57
greater than 90 % of it, in many
6:57 – 6:59
cases 95 % of it, comes from the
6:59 – 7:00
atmosphere. It doesn't come from
7:00 – 7:01
the soil.
7:01 – 7:03
This cellulose, this wood fiber,
7:03 – 7:04
is carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen.
7:04 – 7:06
There is very minute mineral
7:06 – 7:07
content.
7:07 – 7:08
But we understand that the
7:08 – 7:09
mineral content, the nutrient
7:09 – 7:11
content, is the catalyst that
7:11 – 7:12
drives the creation of
7:12 – 7:13
everything else.
7:13 – 7:14
And obviously these trees still
7:14 – 7:15
have to get nutrition from
7:15 – 7:16
somewhere.
7:16 – 7:17
And that led,
7:18 – 7:19
there was,
7:20 – 7:22
Here in California, back in the,
7:22 – 7:24
I want to say in the 40s and
7:24 – 7:25
50s,
7:25 – 7:28
this lady's name is escaping me
7:28 – 7:29
right now.
7:29 – 7:30
Bargilia Retever wrote
7:31 – 7:33
a fascinating book with her
7:33 – 7:34
husband titled The Organic Soil
7:34 – 7:35
Primer.
7:36 – 7:38
And they described observing
7:38 – 7:39
under the microscope, they
7:39 – 7:41
described observing plant cells
7:42 – 7:44
absorb entire bacterial cells.
7:45 – 7:45
in
7:46 – 7:47
the 1940s.
7:47 – 7:49
And that research was buried.
7:49 – 7:50
Nobody talked about it.
7:51 – 7:52
But she was describing this
7:52 – 7:53
process. It was known to occur
7:53 – 7:54
in animal cells.
7:55 – 7:57
This process was termed
7:57 – 7:58
endocytosis.
7:58 – 8:00
Plants capturing and
8:00 – 8:01
encapsulating entire bacterial
8:01 – 8:03
cells and using them as a source
8:03 – 8:04
of nutrients.
8:04 – 8:06
While that was then ignored and
8:06 – 8:08
disregarded in
8:08 – 8:09
our approach to nutrition
8:09 – 8:11
management over the following
8:11 – 8:11
decades,
8:12 – 8:13
But I remembered,
8:15 – 8:15
I enjoyed,
8:16 – 8:17
I was fascinated by that
8:17 – 8:18
observation.
8:18 – 8:22
And then also learning about how
8:22 – 8:22
biology,
8:23 – 8:24
fungi,
8:24 – 8:25
lichens,
8:26 – 8:27
algae,
8:27 – 8:29
and a variety of different
8:29 – 8:31
organisms could etch minerals
8:31 – 8:33
out of rock and provide them to
8:33 – 8:34
plants,
8:34 – 8:35
as long as
8:36 – 8:38
those microbes were supplied
8:38 – 8:39
with adequate amounts of energy,
8:39 – 8:40
with adequate amounts of sugar.
8:41 – 8:42
So
8:43 – 8:44
that,
8:44 – 8:46
We had some interesting
8:46 – 8:47
experiences on the farm at home.
8:47 – 8:49
I've talked about those enough.
8:49 – 8:51
I'm not going to go into more
8:51 – 8:53
detail on the shifts that
8:53 – 8:53
happened there.
8:54 – 8:55
But
8:55 – 8:57
I want to talk about this
8:57 – 8:59
realization that came up in the
8:59 – 9:01
last half a dozen years from
9:01 – 9:03
James White's work at Rutgers
9:03 – 9:05
University. How many of you have
9:05 – 9:06
not heard of the rise of aging
9:06 – 9:07
cycle?
9:08 – 9:09
Oh, yes. This is my type of
9:09 – 9:10
people.
9:11 – 9:12
Almost everyone has.
9:12 – 9:13
This is awesome.
9:14 – 9:15
I am going to talk about it
9:15 – 9:16
again, even if you've heard it
9:16 – 9:17
before,
9:17 – 9:19
because we've learned some new
9:19 – 9:20
things about the Rhizophagia
9:20 – 9:22
cycle just in the last year that
9:22 – 9:23
our understanding of what is
9:23 – 9:24
happening here
9:24 – 9:26
is continuing to improve.
9:26 – 9:27
So
9:30 – 9:33
about now almost two decades
9:33 – 9:33
ago,
9:34 – 9:35
a team of
9:36 – 9:38
folks in academia led by James
9:38 – 9:40
White at Rutgers University
9:40 – 9:42
started studying and trying to
9:42 – 9:43
understand how plants were
9:43 – 9:44
absorbing,
9:44 – 9:46
how undomesticated plants were
9:46 – 9:47
getting nutrition.
9:48 – 9:49
Because they had a parallel,
9:50 – 9:51
James had a parallel observation
9:51 – 9:52
in mind that there were many
9:52 – 9:54
cases in these wild ecosystems
9:54 – 9:57
where the volume of plant growth
9:58 – 10:00
seemed entirely disproportionate
10:00 – 10:01
to the amount of nutrients that
10:01 – 10:02
were readily available in soil.
10:07 – 10:08
identified that
10:09 – 10:12
as a plant root tip is growing
10:12 – 10:13
through the soil, that open root
10:13 – 10:15
tip is actually quite porous.
10:16 – 10:18
And it can absorb, we now
10:18 – 10:20
understand that it can absorb
10:20 – 10:21
cells from at least three
10:21 – 10:22
different types of organisms.
10:22 – 10:24
It can absorb bacterial cells,
10:25 – 10:26
it can absorb microalgae,
10:27 – 10:29
and it can absorb fungi as well.
10:30 – 10:31
Those three can directly
10:31 – 10:33
penetrate and be absorbed in
10:33 – 10:35
this porous growing root tip.
10:36 – 10:37
And
10:38 – 10:39
then,
10:39 – 10:42
As these microbial cells move
10:42 – 10:43
back from the growing root tip,
10:44 – 10:45
they're transported through the
10:45 – 10:46
plant,
10:45 – 10:47
a couple of things can happen.
10:47 – 10:48
One of the things that happens
10:49 – 10:52
is there's
10:52 – 10:54
a zone within the first couple
10:54 – 10:55
inches of the growing root tip
10:55 – 10:57
that is a very highly oxidized
10:57 – 10:59
zone where the plant releases
10:59 – 11:01
nitrous oxide and reactive
11:01 – 11:02
oxygen species.
11:03 – 11:06
to strip the cell membranes from
11:06 – 11:07
some of these bacteria,
11:07 – 11:09
mostly bacterial cells.
11:09 – 11:10
So they strip the cell
11:10 – 11:11
membranes.
11:11 – 11:12
They both utilize the cell
11:12 – 11:14
membranes directly as a nutrient
11:14 – 11:15
energy source, but they also
11:15 – 11:18
then utilize the components of
11:18 – 11:19
these now naked cells.
11:20 – 11:22
But this only happens for a
11:22 – 11:23
fraction of the cells.
11:23 – 11:24
It happens for a large
11:24 – 11:25
proportion, but not for all of
11:25 – 11:26
them.
11:26 – 11:27
We now have
11:28 – 11:30
some of these bacterial cells.
11:31 – 11:32
I'm going to...
11:32 – 11:33
Actually, let me finish part of
11:33 – 11:34
this journey here.
11:38 – 11:39
So what happens with the
11:39 – 11:40
majority of the cells
11:41 – 11:43
is whether they are now naked,
11:44 – 11:45
missing a cell membrane, or
11:45 – 11:46
whether they still have their
11:46 – 11:47
cell membrane, they now move
11:48 – 11:50
throughout the entire plant's
11:50 – 11:51
vascular tissue.
11:52 – 11:54
They move. There is no location
11:54 – 11:55
within the plant that they do
11:55 – 11:55
not go.
11:56 – 11:57
They go into seeds.
11:57 – 11:58
into fruits,
11:58 – 12:01
into leaves, into plant cells.
12:01 – 12:03
These bacteria are transported.
12:03 – 12:05
I'm using bacteria for the sake
12:05 – 12:06
of discussion, but it also holds
12:06 – 12:08
true for micro algae cells and
12:08 – 12:09
for fungal species as well.
12:10 – 12:12
They move throughout the entire
12:12 – 12:13
plant structure.
12:15 – 12:16
And this is
12:16 – 12:18
extremely important because I
12:18 – 12:19
haven't included
12:20 – 12:21
If I talked about all the
12:21 – 12:22
benefits and the effects that
12:22 – 12:23
these microbes had within
12:23 – 12:25
plants, that could be an entire
12:25 – 12:26
day's conversation in and of
12:26 – 12:27
itself.
12:27 – 12:29
We want to talk about drought
12:29 – 12:31
resilience and heat resilience
12:31 – 12:32
and stress resilience.
12:33 – 12:34
All of the significant
12:34 – 12:35
resilience factors are
12:35 – 12:38
contributed by this biology that
12:38 – 12:39
lives inside the plant,
12:40 – 12:41
not in the root system,
12:42 – 12:43
not associated with the root
12:43 – 12:44
system, but inside the plant
12:44 – 12:47
itself. So some of this is quite
12:47 – 12:48
well documented in the case of
12:49 – 12:51
forage pasture species, one very
12:51 – 12:53
well -known case that people
12:53 – 12:55
understand quite succinctly is
12:56 – 12:57
forage
12:59 – 13:00
pasture grass fescue.
13:01 – 13:01
So throughout the Southeast
13:01 – 13:02
United States,
13:03 – 13:05
we have what is called
13:05 – 13:07
endophyte
13:08 – 13:09
-infected fescue.
13:10 – 13:11
And endophyte -infected fescue,
13:12 – 13:13
we have to be cautious when
13:13 – 13:14
we're feeding livestock because
13:14 – 13:16
it can induce endophyte
13:16 – 13:16
toxicity.
13:17 – 13:18
Well, what is actually happening
13:18 – 13:20
is all of these organisms that
13:20 – 13:22
live inside the plant,
13:22 – 13:25
are just categorically described
13:25 – 13:26
as endophytes.
13:26 – 13:28
An endophyte simply means that
13:28 – 13:29
it lives within the plant's
13:29 – 13:30
vacuum. tissue.
13:31 – 13:32
It lives within the plant
13:32 – 13:33
structure.
13:35 – 13:36
Now,
13:36 – 13:37
what we've discovered in the
13:37 – 13:38
last year,
13:40 – 13:42
prior to a year ago,
13:42 – 13:44
my understanding was that these
13:44 – 13:45
bacteria
13:45 – 13:47
move throughout the entire
13:47 – 13:47
plant.
13:48 – 13:49
They exist
13:49 – 13:52
in the crevices or the corners
13:52 – 13:54
in between plant cells.
13:55 – 13:56
We now, we understand quite
13:56 – 13:58
clearly, we know that all of us,
13:58 – 13:59
in our bodies,
14:00 – 14:01
We have, I forget what the
14:01 – 14:02
number is, but we have like 10
14:02 – 14:04
times more microbial cells than
14:04 – 14:05
we have human cells in our body.
14:06 – 14:08
We now understand that the same
14:08 – 14:09
concept is also true of plants.
14:10 – 14:13
Plants have 10 to 15 times more
14:13 – 14:14
microbial cells than they have
14:14 – 14:16
plant cells within the plant
14:16 – 14:17
structure.
14:18 – 14:19
And that
14:19 – 14:22
that is a complete necessity for
14:22 – 14:23
that plant to thrive and to
14:23 – 14:25
reach its ultimate health and
14:25 – 14:26
ultimate immune system function.
14:27 – 14:28
Now, my understanding had been
14:28 – 14:29
up
14:30 – 14:31
to a year ago that these
14:31 – 14:32
bacteria would
14:32 – 14:35
they would mostly remain on the
14:35 – 14:36
outside of the plant cells,
14:37 – 14:38
and that if
14:38 – 14:40
they were internalized into the
14:40 – 14:42
plant cell, the plant cell
14:42 – 14:43
absorbs them through this
14:43 – 14:44
endocytosis process,
14:45 – 14:47
that the plant cell then takes
14:47 – 14:48
them apart.
14:48 – 14:51
It takes apart the
14:51 – 14:54
bacterial cell membranes, it
14:54 – 14:55
takes apart the various
14:55 – 14:57
organelles, and it uses them as
14:57 – 14:58
an energy source.
14:59 – 15:00
Well, now coming to discover
15:00 – 15:02
that that isn't exactly what
15:02 – 15:02
happens.
15:02 – 15:04
And this is such a beautiful
15:04 – 15:06
interaction because what is
15:06 – 15:07
actually happening
15:07 – 15:08
is
15:09 – 15:11
these microbes,
15:12 – 15:12
bacteria,
15:13 – 15:14
in the soil are
15:15 – 15:17
loaded up with nutrients that
15:17 – 15:18
they have extracted,
15:18 – 15:20
and they're also loaded up with
15:20 – 15:21
lipids.
15:22 – 15:24
There is a specific lipid form
15:24 – 15:27
called sphingolipids that they
15:27 – 15:29
build these nutrient -bearing
15:29 – 15:30
rafts
15:30 – 15:32
inside a bacterial cell.
15:33 – 15:35
And this bacterial cell is
15:35 – 15:37
absorbed from the soil,
15:37 – 15:39
migrates up through the plant
15:39 – 15:40
into the aerial parts of the
15:40 – 15:41
plant, goes into a plant cell.
15:42 – 15:44
And once it's inside the plant
15:44 – 15:45
cell,
15:45 – 15:47
it releases these sphingolipid
15:47 – 15:48
rafts.
15:48 – 15:49
that are loaded with nutrients
15:49 – 15:51
and then goes back out the plant
15:51 – 15:53
cell and migrates back down into
15:53 – 15:55
the soil and does the exact same
15:55 – 15:56
process over again.
15:58 – 15:58
Isn't that incredible?
16:00 – 16:02
These microbes are behaving as
16:02 – 16:04
nutrient transporters,
16:05 – 16:06
as truckers, if you will, moving
16:06 – 16:08
nutrients into the plant.
16:09 – 16:10
And in
16:10 – 16:11
this process,
16:13 – 16:16
to add one last piece that
16:16 – 16:17
Dr. White and his colleagues
16:17 – 16:18
described,
16:18 – 16:21
the exit pathway for a lot of
16:21 – 16:22
this biology
16:22 – 16:24
that is coming down from the
16:24 – 16:25
upper parts of the plant
16:25 – 16:29
is created as this
16:29 – 16:31
plant root or as this root tip
16:31 – 16:33
grows through the soil profile,
16:34 – 16:35
about two inches back from the
16:35 – 16:37
root tip, we have the initial
16:37 – 16:39
development of root hairs.
16:41 – 16:41
And the
16:42 – 16:43
plant is constantly producing
16:43 – 16:44
these root hairs.
16:45 – 16:46
Dr. Hoyt and his colleagues have
16:46 – 16:48
described the mechanisms by
16:48 – 16:50
which these are triggered.
16:50 – 16:51
But in short,
16:53 – 16:54
One of the ways that I'm
16:54 – 16:56
interpreting this or
16:56 – 16:57
understanding this is that the
16:57 – 16:58
plant is constantly trying to
16:58 – 17:00
release microbes back into the
17:00 – 17:02
soil as close to that growing
17:02 – 17:03
root tip as possible.
17:03 – 17:04
So what happens is these
17:04 – 17:06
microbes now come down from the
17:06 – 17:07
upper parts of the plant,
17:08 – 17:09
they migrate out of the root
17:09 – 17:11
system through these root hairs,
17:11 – 17:13
and in that process
17:13 – 17:16
there is both chemical signaling
17:16 – 17:19
and electrical signaling that
17:19 – 17:20
occurs to the
17:20 – 17:22
to the rest of the microbial
17:22 – 17:23
community
17:23 – 17:24
exactly what that plant's
17:24 – 17:25
nutritional requirements are.
17:26 – 17:27
It is saying, hey,
17:27 – 17:29
I need more manganese.
17:29 – 17:30
The plant is communicating, I
17:30 – 17:31
need more manganese, or I need
17:31 – 17:32
more phosphorus, or I need more
17:32 – 17:33
zinc.
17:33 – 17:35
And then the soil microbial
17:35 – 17:36
community will
17:36 – 17:38
selectively go after those
17:38 – 17:39
nutrients that are in the soil
17:39 – 17:40
mineral matrix,
17:40 – 17:42
extract them out, and then the
17:42 – 17:43
next microbes
17:44 – 17:46
that the plant absorbs in as
17:46 – 17:48
little as four to six hours,
17:50 – 17:51
that next group of microbes the
17:51 – 17:52
plant is absorbing will have
17:52 – 17:54
higher concentrations of those
17:54 – 17:55
selective nutrients that the
17:55 – 17:56
plant requires.
17:57 – 17:58
Isn't that incredible?
17:59 – 18:00
It's pretty amazing.
18:00 – 18:01
But
18:02 – 18:04
there's something
18:05 – 18:07
else that is required for this
18:07 – 18:07
to work.
18:10 – 18:11
Quorum sensing.
18:13 – 18:14
I should get Greg up here to
18:14 – 18:15
talk about quorum sensing.
18:21 – 18:22
The obvious question is,
18:23 – 18:24
that needs to be asked,
18:25 – 18:27
if this is the way
18:27 – 18:29
that soil biology and plants
18:29 – 18:30
truly interact,
18:31 – 18:33
then why don't we see more of
18:33 – 18:35
it? Why do we see nutrient
18:35 – 18:36
deficiency showing up in crops?
18:37 – 18:38
Why do we see nutritional
18:38 – 18:39
imbalances showing up?
18:40 – 18:42
And the short answer is this
18:42 – 18:44
process that I'm describing
18:45 – 18:48
frequently fails to function as
18:48 – 18:50
designed because it doesn't have
18:50 – 18:51
enough energy.
18:52 – 18:54
The overall energy state is too
18:54 – 18:55
low for it to really thrive.
18:56 – 18:58
So I want to describe this
18:58 – 19:00
process that occurs in microbes
19:00 – 19:01
called quorum sensing.
19:02 – 19:03
And if you're not familiar with
19:04 – 19:05
quorum sensing, with the
19:04 – 19:05
language,
19:05 – 19:06
then you're certainly familiar
19:06 – 19:07
with the concept.
19:09 – 19:11
So quorum sensing is when a
19:11 – 19:14
large group of organisms begins
19:14 – 19:17
behaving collectively as one
19:17 – 19:18
superorganism.
19:18 – 19:19
The classical example that
19:19 – 19:21
everyone understands is a
19:21 – 19:21
honeybee colony.
19:22 – 19:23
A honeybee colony is comprised
19:23 – 19:25
of tens or hundreds of thousands
19:25 – 19:26
of individual honeybees, but
19:26 – 19:28
they all behave collectively as
19:28 – 19:29
one.
19:30 – 19:31
And the
19:32 – 19:34
same also holds true in
19:35 – 19:36
the soil microbiome.
19:36 – 19:38
So my understanding of chloram
19:38 – 19:40
sensing today
19:41 – 19:43
is that there are two different
19:43 – 19:44
levels of quorum sensing that
19:44 – 19:47
happens in the soil microbiome,
19:48 – 19:50
or in our own microbiome, or in
19:50 – 19:51
any collective microbial group.
19:53 – 19:55
The first level of quorum
19:55 – 19:57
sensing is
19:57 – 20:00
single species.
20:01 – 20:03
Let's say
20:03 – 20:06
that we develop a bacterial
20:06 – 20:07
infection, like bacterial
20:07 – 20:08
pneumonia.
20:09 – 20:11
In the initial stages,
20:13 – 20:14
And I don't know exactly where
20:14 – 20:15
the threshold is.
20:15 – 20:17
Let's call it 1 ,000 cells for
20:17 – 20:18
the sake of discussion.
20:18 – 20:20
In the initial stages, each one
20:20 – 20:21
of those individual bacterial
20:21 – 20:23
cells behaves as an individual
20:23 – 20:24
entity.
20:25 – 20:27
Each individual cell is
20:27 – 20:29
completely responsible for
20:29 – 20:31
protection,
20:31 – 20:32
for self -defense.
20:32 – 20:34
It's responsible for finding a
20:34 – 20:35
food source. It's responsible
20:35 – 20:36
for reproduction.
20:38 – 20:40
Then as that population builds,
20:40 – 20:42
it reaches a critical threshold.
20:43 – 20:44
And once it reaches a critical
20:44 – 20:45
threshold,
20:45 – 20:47
a large enough population,
20:47 – 20:49
they begin grouping together and
20:49 – 20:50
they start behaving as a
20:50 – 20:51
superorganism.
20:52 – 20:53
And once they've established
20:53 – 20:55
this superorganism effect, where
20:55 – 20:57
there's this constant
20:57 – 20:59
communication happening across
20:59 – 21:00
all of these individual
21:00 – 21:01
bacterial cells,
21:01 – 21:03
now each individual cell,
21:05 – 21:05
two things happen.
21:05 – 21:06
First of all,
21:06 – 21:08
they become very specialized.
21:08 – 21:10
They take on specialized
21:10 – 21:11
purposes instead of being
21:11 – 21:12
general purpose.
21:12 – 21:14
So now one cell only has one
21:14 – 21:15
job.
21:15 – 21:18
Its only job is self -defense,
21:19 – 21:20
or its only job is reproduction.
21:21 – 21:22
And so at that stage, the
21:22 – 21:24
behavior of
21:24 – 21:26
bacterial pneumonia starts to
21:26 – 21:28
change. Now you start the
21:28 – 21:29
production of mucus
21:29 – 21:32
and biofilms for protection of
21:32 – 21:33
that entire community.
21:35 – 21:37
Along with taking on a very
21:37 – 21:38
specialized purpose and
21:38 – 21:39
function,
21:39 – 21:41
they also become very energy
21:41 – 21:41
efficient.
21:42 – 21:43
So the energy costs of the
21:43 – 21:45
overall organism actually go
21:45 – 21:45
down,
21:47 – 21:49
which allows them to proliferate
21:49 – 21:50
and grow even further.
21:51 – 21:52
They establish larger community
21:52 – 21:53
even faster because they're more
21:53 – 21:54
energy efficient.
21:58 – 22:00
What I've come to realize,
22:01 – 22:02
and this is
22:03 – 22:05
To be clear, this is just based
22:05 – 22:07
on experience and observation.
22:07 – 22:09
I do not have a bunch of white
22:09 – 22:11
papers to support this, but this
22:11 – 22:12
is just
22:12 – 22:13
what we are observing in the
22:13 – 22:14
field,
22:14 – 22:15
is that
22:15 – 22:18
there is a threshold change that
22:18 – 22:19
occurs.
22:19 – 22:21
The soil microbiome starts
22:21 – 22:23
behaving completely differently,
22:24 – 22:25
similar to my bacterial
22:25 – 22:26
pneumonia example,
22:27 – 22:28
when you have two things
22:28 – 22:28
happening.
22:29 – 22:31
is you have to have a critical
22:31 – 22:33
threshold. You have to have a
22:33 – 22:35
certain volume of biological
22:35 – 22:36
activity happening.
22:37 – 22:38
You have to have a certain
22:38 – 22:39
amount of energy from
22:39 – 22:41
photosynthates and sugars going
22:41 – 22:42
down out through the root system
22:42 – 22:43
to feed soil biology.
22:44 – 22:45
Once you achieve this critical
22:45 – 22:46
threshold,
22:46 – 22:48
that's the first piece
22:48 – 22:49
that is a requirement.
22:50 – 22:51
And then the second piece that
22:51 – 22:53
is a requirement is we
22:54 – 22:56
need to have a large enough
22:56 – 22:58
microbial species diversity as
22:59 – 23:00
a function of plant diversity.
23:01 – 23:02
You need to have both of those
23:02 – 23:03
things. If you have just one,
23:04 – 23:04
but not the second,
23:05 – 23:08
you shouldn't expect to achieve
23:08 – 23:08
quorum sensing.
23:10 – 23:11
So the
23:12 – 23:13
piece that is really fascinating
23:13 – 23:14
is
23:14 – 23:16
that when we achieve this quorum
23:16 – 23:17
sensing of the entire microbial
23:17 – 23:19
community, it's not confined to
23:19 – 23:21
just the microbial community
23:21 – 23:21
alone.
23:21 – 23:23
It also includes the plants that
23:23 – 23:24
are growing there.
23:25 – 23:26
The plants,
23:26 – 23:29
it becomes really difficult to
23:29 – 23:31
identify where
23:32 – 23:34
soil microbiome
23:34 – 23:36
ends and plants begin.
23:36 – 23:38
They start fusing together into
23:38 – 23:40
one whole organism, one
23:40 – 23:41
superorganism.
23:42 – 23:44
One of the stories that
23:45 – 23:47
I've described, and there are
23:47 – 23:49
now several other instances,
23:50 – 23:52
but this, I think this one is a
23:52 – 23:53
particularly appropriate for the
23:53 – 23:54
environment that we're in.
23:54 – 23:56
There is at the Minocan farm in
23:56 – 23:57
North Dakota,
23:59 – 24:00
this
24:00 – 24:03
was 2012, 2012 and 2013 they had
24:03 – 24:04
a major drought stress,
24:05 – 24:07
and in 2011 at the
24:08 – 24:09
Noted on the Plains Conference,
24:09 – 24:10
there was a presenter who spoke
24:10 – 24:11
about the value that they were
24:11 – 24:13
seeing from diverse cover crops
24:13 – 24:14
that were blended together and
24:14 – 24:15
combined together.
24:17 – 24:19
Jay Fehrer from the Minocan Farm
24:19 – 24:20
decided to run an experiment.
24:21 – 24:24
They did seven small test plots
24:24 – 24:26
of individual cover crop
24:26 – 24:26
species,
24:26 – 24:28
and then the eighth test plot
24:28 – 24:30
with all seven species combined.
24:32 – 24:34
In the 2012 growing season,
24:34 – 24:36
major drought conditions, those
24:36 – 24:39
test plots of seven individual
24:39 – 24:40
species turned
24:40 – 24:41
into toast.
24:41 – 24:43
Literally, they grew 12 to 16
24:43 – 24:45
inches tall and they turned into
24:45 – 24:46
hay.
24:46 – 24:47
The
24:47 – 24:48
eighth
24:48 – 24:51
plot that had all seven species
24:51 – 24:52
together,
24:54 – 24:56
there was limited growth.
24:56 – 24:58
Those plants only grew and also
24:58 – 24:59
similar to the rest, they also
24:59 – 25:00
only grew 12 inches.
25:00 – 25:01
inches tall, but they stayed
25:01 – 25:03
green all season long.
25:04 – 25:06
And that experience was
25:06 – 25:09
duplicated in the 2013 drought
25:09 – 25:10
season that they had.
25:10 – 25:11
So two successive years in a
25:11 – 25:12
row.
25:13 – 25:14
And that
25:15 – 25:16
is an expression,
25:17 – 25:18
as I'm coming to understand it,
25:18 – 25:21
that is an expression of having
25:22 – 25:23
There's several different things
25:23 – 25:24
happening there.
25:24 – 25:25
There are plants there that have
25:25 – 25:28
complementary nutritional needs.
25:28 – 25:29
There's plants there that have
25:29 – 25:30
complementary water
25:30 – 25:31
requirements. All of those
25:31 – 25:33
pieces are contributing factors,
25:33 – 25:35
but the foundational factor that
25:35 – 25:38
allowed those plants to be
25:38 – 25:39
completely drought resistant
25:39 – 25:41
resistant, drought resilient, to
25:41 – 25:42
have adequate water supply,
25:42 – 25:43
was that there was a quorum
25:43 – 25:45
-sensing microbial community
25:45 – 25:47
that allowed those plants to
25:47 – 25:49
effectively communicate with
25:49 – 25:50
each other what their
25:50 – 25:51
nutritional requirements were
25:51 – 25:52
and what their water
25:52 – 25:53
requirements were.
25:53 – 25:55
And instead of competing with
25:55 – 25:56
each other, here's the important
25:56 – 25:57
part.
25:57 – 25:58
When you have a superorganism,
25:59 – 26:01
that the plants are a part of a
26:01 – 26:02
superorganism,
26:03 – 26:05
we have had this idea for the
26:05 – 26:05
last
26:07 – 26:08
half a dozen decades or more,
26:08 – 26:10
we've been trained to think that
26:10 – 26:12
plants are constantly competing
26:12 – 26:13
with each other for water and
26:13 – 26:14
nutrients.
26:14 – 26:16
We don't like weeds because
26:16 – 26:17
weeds are competing with other
26:17 – 26:18
plants for water and nutrients.
26:18 – 26:19
But in fact,
26:20 – 26:22
and that can be true,
26:22 – 26:24
that is true if there isn't
26:24 – 26:25
enough diversity and
26:26 – 26:27
if there isn't quorum sensing.
26:28 – 26:29
But when you have a vibrant
26:29 – 26:31
plant population with a
26:31 – 26:33
diversity of plant species and a
26:33 – 26:34
diversity of the microbiome,
26:36 – 26:37
Plants don't compete with each
26:37 – 26:38
other, they start collaborating
26:38 – 26:39
with each other.
26:41 – 26:42
And you know,
26:42 – 26:43
all of you have an incredible
26:43 – 26:44
opportunity to
26:45 – 26:46
put this into place
26:46 – 26:48
because you
26:48 – 26:50
don't have soils and crop types
26:50 – 26:52
that require tillage every year.
26:53 – 26:54
Now you may have gotten into the
26:54 – 26:55
habit of tilling every year.
26:55 – 26:56
but that's a different topic
26:56 – 26:56
entirely.
26:58 – 26:59
So
26:59 – 27:00
what
27:01 – 27:03
I've come to realize is that
27:03 – 27:04
when we have
27:05 – 27:08
a diverse enough microbiome
27:08 – 27:09
as
27:10 – 27:11
a function of diversity of plant
27:11 – 27:12
species,
27:13 – 27:16
the soil microbial population
27:16 – 27:17
changes its behavior.
27:18 – 27:20
and the plant population changes
27:20 – 27:20
its behavior.
27:21 – 27:23
And once we establish this, so I
27:23 – 27:26
asked the question here at the
27:26 – 27:26
beginning, just a little bit
27:26 – 27:27
ago,
27:27 – 27:28
I asked the question,
27:29 – 27:31
if quorum sensing is effective,
27:31 – 27:33
and this rhizophagy cycle
27:34 – 27:35
process that Dr.
27:35 – 27:36
White and his colleagues
27:36 – 27:37
described as effective,
27:38 – 27:40
then we would never have
27:40 – 27:41
nutrient deficiencies,
27:41 – 27:42
theoretically,
27:42 – 27:44
because this should provide all
27:44 – 27:45
of the plant's nutritional
27:45 – 27:46
requirements.
27:46 – 27:47
And what we're coming to
27:47 – 27:49
understand is that it
27:49 – 27:50
is absolutely possible
27:51 – 27:53
for plants and for the soil
27:53 – 27:55
microbiome to have such a level
27:55 – 27:58
of health and vigor and overall
27:58 – 28:01
activity that it can supply 100
28:01 – 28:02
% of a crop's nutritional
28:02 – 28:02
requirements. You know,
28:03 – 28:04
Elaine Ingham talked about this
28:04 – 28:05
years ago.
28:06 – 28:07
I think she still talks about
28:07 – 28:08
it.
28:08 – 28:09
She used to describe how
28:09 – 28:11
if
28:11 – 28:14
you simply have, if you fix soil
28:14 – 28:16
biology, then soil biology can
28:16 – 28:17
supply 100 % of a plant's
28:17 – 28:18
nutritional requirements.
28:18 – 28:20
This was a recurring refrain,
28:20 – 28:21
something that she was quite
28:21 – 28:21
adamant about.
28:24 – 28:27
She received a lot of antagonism
28:27 – 28:29
or pushback on this concept
28:29 – 28:30
because many people tried it and
28:30 – 28:31
failed.
28:32 – 28:33
They did not see the results and
28:33 – 28:34
did not see the success.
28:35 – 28:38
And I'm of the persuasion that
28:38 – 28:39
there are a few caveats, that
28:39 – 28:40
there is a requirement,
28:42 – 28:43
obviously, in order for
28:44 – 28:47
biology to extract nutrients and
28:47 – 28:48
make nutrients available to the
28:48 – 28:49
plant, they have to be present
28:49 – 28:50
in the soil in the first place.
28:50 – 28:51
That's something that we have to
28:51 – 28:52
take into consideration.
28:52 – 28:54
But also, I'm of the persuasion
28:54 – 28:55
that the reason many people
28:55 – 28:56
didn't see the results that
28:56 – 28:57
Elaine was describing, she
28:57 – 28:58
obviously saw those results in
28:58 – 28:59
the laboratory,
28:59 – 29:01
so she believed it was possible
29:01 – 29:02
because she was seeing those
29:02 – 29:02
results in the laboratory,
29:03 – 29:04
but the results didn't replicate
29:04 – 29:05
into the field.
29:05 – 29:07
Because in the field,
29:07 – 29:09
most soils didn't have enough
29:09 – 29:10
energy, enough sugar energy,
29:11 – 29:13
to drive the microbiome to the
29:13 – 29:14
degree that she was able to
29:14 – 29:15
propagate it to in the lab.
29:19 – 29:20
Any questions on what I've
29:20 – 29:20
talked about so far?
29:21 – 29:22
This is kind of foundational
29:22 – 29:23
because this drives everything.
29:23 – 29:24
Yes?
29:24 – 29:26
As valuable as all this is, that
29:26 – 29:28
number one item, I've had more
29:28 – 29:30
fun teasing my vegetarian
29:30 – 29:31
friends with that quote that
29:31 – 29:33
plants are not vegetarians.
29:34 – 29:35
Thank you for that.
29:40 – 29:41
Plants are
29:42 – 29:43
not vegetarians.
29:42 – 29:43
Once I started really
29:43 – 29:44
understanding this,
29:44 – 29:45
two things are happening.
29:46 – 29:47
One is it is true that plants
29:47 – 29:48
are
29:48 – 29:49
consuming and utilizing
29:49 – 29:50
bacteria,
29:51 – 29:53
but it's also true that bacteria
29:53 – 29:56
are vectors of nutrients, that
29:56 – 29:57
they're just cycling them and
29:57 – 29:58
moving them through.
30:02 – 30:05
It's been intriguing to learn
30:05 – 30:06
more about and to better
30:06 – 30:09
understand the degree to which
30:09 – 30:10
plants support each other.
30:10 – 30:11
I'd like to just elaborate on
30:11 – 30:12
this a little bit more.
30:14 – 30:16
I forget the author's name, but
30:16 – 30:17
several years ago there was a
30:17 – 30:18
fascinating
30:18 – 30:21
book published by a researcher
30:21 – 30:22
from Canada,
30:23 – 30:24
Finding the Mother Tree,
30:25 – 30:27
where they were, have you heard
30:27 – 30:28
of this book? Has anyone read
30:28 – 30:29
it?
30:29 – 30:29
Okay, a few of you have.
30:30 – 30:32
So Finding the Mother Tree, I
30:32 – 30:33
forget the author's name,
30:34 – 30:37
but she in, I
30:37 – 30:38
think it was in the book, it
30:38 – 30:39
might also have been in one of
30:39 – 30:40
her papers,
30:40 – 30:42
she described how
30:43 – 30:46
when a seed lands
30:46 – 30:48
and germinates on the soil,
30:50 – 30:53
even at some distance from the
30:53 – 30:55
tree that produced that seed,
30:57 – 30:59
those two, the mother tree will
30:59 – 31:02
identify that this is her
31:02 – 31:03
daughter tree,
31:04 – 31:06
even though there is not even a,
31:06 – 31:08
not a direct or a traceable
31:08 – 31:09
direct connection.
31:09 – 31:11
It can be hundreds of yards
31:11 – 31:12
away.
31:12 – 31:15
And if that daughter tree is in
31:15 – 31:16
a very difficult environment,
31:17 – 31:18
let's say it's in very rocky
31:18 – 31:19
soil or
31:20 – 31:21
it's shaded by other trees and
31:21 – 31:22
it doesn't get a lot of
31:22 – 31:23
sunlight,
31:24 – 31:25
that mother tree will support
31:25 – 31:27
the daughter tree and provide it
31:27 – 31:30
with sugar for years to sustain
31:30 – 31:31
it and to keep it growing.
31:32 – 31:34
And that sugar gets transmitted
31:34 – 31:37
from the mother through
31:38 – 31:40
this domino chain
31:40 – 31:43
of being passed from tree to
31:43 – 31:45
tree to tree through their
31:45 – 31:46
mycorrhizal mycelial
31:46 – 31:47
connections. It'll be
31:47 – 31:48
transferred from one tree to the
31:48 – 31:49
next to the next.
31:49 – 31:51
And she documented sugar being
31:51 – 31:53
transferred through
31:53 – 31:56
six intermediary links from
31:58 – 32:00
mother to daughter with no loss
32:00 – 32:01
of quantity.
32:03 – 32:04
None of the trees in the chain
32:04 – 32:05
took any sugar for themselves.
32:06 – 32:08
They passed all the sugar along
32:08 – 32:08
to the daughter.
32:09 – 32:10
Isn't that incredible?
32:11 – 32:12
How do they know?
32:13 – 32:14
They know.
32:15 – 32:16
all of a sudden you realize that
32:16 – 32:18
plants are living beings with as
32:18 – 32:20
much sentience and awareness.
32:20 – 32:22
You know, I have this talk that
32:22 – 32:24
I gave a number of years ago on
32:24 – 32:28
plant intelligence that was
32:28 – 32:29
based on a lot of Stephen Herod
32:29 – 32:30
Buhner's work.
32:30 – 32:31
And Buhner was the one that
32:31 – 32:32
first,
32:32 – 32:34
he has this incredible trilogy
32:34 – 32:35
of three books.
32:35 – 32:37
The third in the series is just
32:37 – 32:39
titled Plant Intelligence.
32:40 – 32:42
And it will give you, all three
32:42 – 32:42
of the books are quite
32:42 – 32:44
incredible, but third one in
32:44 – 32:45
particular will give you a very
32:45 – 32:46
different perspective on plants.
32:47 – 32:49
He describes how plants have
32:49 – 32:51
this, so when we think of
32:51 – 32:53
intelligence, intelligence being
32:53 – 32:56
defined as informed decision
32:56 – 32:57
-making, conscious decision
32:57 – 32:58
-making, evaluating choices,
32:58 – 33:00
deciding which pathway to go
33:00 – 33:00
down,
33:01 – 33:03
the ability for computation and
33:03 – 33:04
so forth.
33:05 – 33:06
We think of it in terms of
33:06 – 33:07
brains, but if you take a
33:07 – 33:09
slightly more macro view,
33:09 – 33:10
the accurate way of describing
33:10 – 33:11
it would be to describe it in
33:11 – 33:12
terms of neural networks.
33:13 – 33:14
So we know that we have neural
33:14 – 33:15
networks in our gut that's
33:15 – 33:16
associated with the health and
33:16 – 33:17
integrity of our microbiome.
33:17 – 33:19
We have a small neural network
33:19 – 33:20
around our heart.
33:20 – 33:21
So when we talk about making a
33:21 – 33:22
gut decision or having a gut
33:22 – 33:25
feeling, we have the capacity
33:25 – 33:27
for decision making and
33:27 – 33:28
analysis, not just in our heads.
33:31 – 33:33
Buhner pulled together all of
33:33 – 33:35
this research work describing
33:35 – 33:37
how plants also have neural
33:37 – 33:38
networks.
33:39 – 33:41
The neural
33:41 – 33:43
networks that plants have are
33:43 – 33:45
precisely identical to our own.
33:45 – 33:46
They have the same
33:46 – 33:47
neurotransmitters.
33:47 – 33:48
They have the same neuron
33:48 – 33:49
structure.
33:49 – 33:51
Everything is identical with one
33:51 – 33:51
exception.
33:52 – 33:54
When you have a large
33:54 – 33:55
established perennial plant,
33:56 – 33:57
such as an oak tree or a
33:57 – 33:58
grapevine,
33:58 – 34:00
their neural network is
34:00 – 34:01
significantly larger than our
34:01 – 34:02
own.
34:03 – 34:04
They have more computational
34:04 – 34:05
capacity.
34:06 – 34:07
And
34:07 – 34:08
according to the classical
34:08 – 34:10
definition of intelligence, they
34:10 – 34:11
have more intelligence than
34:11 – 34:12
we do.
34:14 – 34:15
So that gives you a different
34:15 – 34:16
perspective about plants,
34:16 – 34:17
doesn't it?
34:18 – 34:19
All right.
34:20 – 34:22
So now the
34:23 – 34:25
question is,
34:27 – 34:29
how do we get to this stage?
34:29 – 34:30
If we want to have
34:31 – 34:33
a microbally,
34:34 – 34:36
if we to have the rhizophagy
34:36 – 34:38
cycle working and effectively
34:38 – 34:39
delivering nutrition to our
34:39 – 34:40
crops,
34:40 – 34:42
how do we get there
34:42 – 34:44
without compromising yields,
34:45 – 34:48
without compromising overall
34:48 – 34:49
plant health and performance?
34:50 – 34:51
And I
34:52 – 34:53
would suggest we need to start
34:53 – 34:55
thinking, we need to start
34:55 – 34:57
managing our soil as if though
34:57 – 34:58
it were a Petri dish in a
34:58 – 34:59
laboratory that we want to
34:59 – 35:00
propagate biology on.
35:01 – 35:02
We understand if we're trying to
35:02 – 35:03
propagate biology in a
35:03 – 35:04
laboratory,
35:04 – 35:05
We wanted to give it an ideal
35:05 – 35:07
environment in terms of ideal
35:07 – 35:08
moisture conditions, ideal
35:08 – 35:10
temperature conditions, optimal
35:10 – 35:10
food source,
35:11 – 35:12
and of
35:13 – 35:14
course the absence of toxins.
35:16 – 35:17
We should try to do the same
35:17 – 35:17
things in our soil.
35:21 – 35:22
One of the,
35:23 – 35:23
I think there are,
35:25 – 35:27
there are lots of
35:27 – 35:29
smaller
35:30 – 35:31
contributing factors that really
35:31 – 35:34
suppress soil biology of our
35:34 – 35:35
management practices.
35:35 – 35:36
There are things that we do like
35:36 – 35:37
irrigating with
35:37 – 35:39
poor water quality, and so
35:39 – 35:41
forth. So there are a number of
35:41 – 35:42
things that we do that suppress
35:42 – 35:44
soil biology from a management
35:44 – 35:44
perspective.
35:45 – 35:47
But there are three that
35:47 – 35:49
kind of supersede all the others
35:49 – 35:51
in terms of their impact, as I
35:51 – 35:52
understand it.
35:53 – 35:55
The first of all, these in no
35:55 – 35:55
particular order,
35:56 – 35:58
but one of the three is having
35:58 – 36:00
bare soil that's exposed to the
36:00 – 36:01
sun.
36:02 – 36:04
Bare soil exposed to the sun, we
36:04 – 36:05
know that when we have
36:06 – 36:08
all of these microbial processes
36:08 – 36:10
in the soil require enzymes to
36:10 – 36:10
function.
36:10 – 36:12
and enzymes become denatured at
36:12 – 36:13
110 degrees Fahrenheit.
36:15 – 36:16
We know that if we have bare
36:16 – 36:17
soil that's exposed to the sun,
36:18 – 36:20
the soil surface on a warm sunny
36:20 – 36:21
day will reach about 140 degrees
36:21 – 36:23
Fahrenheit and you'll easily
36:23 – 36:24
reach 110 degrees down to a
36:24 – 36:25
depth of about three to four
36:25 – 36:26
inches.
36:26 – 36:28
I've measured that many times
36:28 – 36:30
and so that means that
36:30 – 36:33
upper horizon of soil, the top
36:33 – 36:35
four inches where we should have
36:35 – 36:38
the most biological activity is
36:38 – 36:40
in effect where we have none
36:40 – 36:42
because we've fried it
36:42 – 36:43
by exposure to the sun.
36:44 – 36:45
I mean, look, there's this,
36:46 – 36:48
what is the old saying that
36:48 – 36:49
sunlight is nature's best
36:49 – 36:50
medicine if you have wounds to
36:50 – 36:51
expose them to the sun?
36:51 – 36:52
Because it's a very effective
36:52 – 36:53
antiseptic.
36:54 – 36:55
It's very effective at cleaning
36:55 – 36:55
and sterilizing.
36:59 – 37:00
Second significant factor
37:01 – 37:02
is
37:03 – 37:06
application of high electrolyte
37:06 – 37:07
content fertilizers.
37:08 – 37:10
So I'm using very specific
37:10 – 37:11
language here, very high salt
37:11 – 37:13
index fertilizers or very high
37:13 – 37:16
salt content. Anytime you have a
37:16 – 37:18
material that has a high salt
37:18 – 37:19
index or high electrolyte
37:19 – 37:20
content, it's actually, it's
37:20 – 37:21
very, it's quite simple.
37:22 – 37:23
If you have a cut in your finger
37:23 – 37:24
and
37:25 – 37:27
you get salt into it or you get
37:27 – 37:28
fertilizers into it,
37:28 – 37:30
that cut will burn.
37:30 – 37:33
And that burning is cellular
37:33 – 37:33
oxidation.
37:34 – 37:35
That's what you're feeling is
37:35 – 37:36
cellular oxidation.
37:36 – 37:38
And those fertilizers will do
37:38 – 37:40
the exact same thing to microbes
37:40 – 37:41
when they're applied to soil.
37:43 – 37:44
They will oxidize microbial
37:44 – 37:46
cells and shut down microbial
37:46 – 37:46
cells.
37:49 – 37:50
It's kind of funny when
37:51 – 37:52
you stop to think about it.
37:53 – 37:55
You can appropriately say that
37:55 – 37:57
adding fertilizer to soil and
37:57 – 37:59
the fertilizer being defined as
37:59 – 38:01
urea and MAP and DAP and
38:01 – 38:03
potassium nitrate, calcium
38:03 – 38:03
nitrate. So you can
38:03 – 38:05
appropriately say that applying
38:05 – 38:06
those fertilizers to soil is
38:06 – 38:07
salting the land.
38:08 – 38:09
It's the same thing.
38:12 – 38:15
Then the third significant
38:15 – 38:16
negative impact on soil biology
38:17 – 38:19
is fungicide applications.
38:21 – 38:23
Fungicide applications are
38:23 – 38:25
more impactful and more
38:25 – 38:27
detrimental than all the other
38:27 – 38:28
pesticides, herbicides,
38:28 – 38:30
insecticides grouped together.
38:31 – 38:33
They have a market.
38:33 – 38:34
Well,
38:33 – 38:34
I think,
38:36 – 38:39
again, this is just a lot of
38:39 – 38:40
experience and a lot of
38:40 – 38:42
observation. I don't have hard
38:42 – 38:43
data to back this up.
38:44 – 38:45
But observationally, I would say
38:45 – 38:47
that fungicides are
38:48 – 38:51
more damaging to soil biology
38:51 – 38:53
than fertilizer applications.
38:54 – 38:55
And they are
38:55 – 38:57
more damaging to soil biology
38:57 – 38:58
than tillage,
38:59 – 39:00
and they're more damaging to
39:00 – 39:02
biology than bare soil exposed
39:02 – 39:03
to the sun,
39:03 – 39:04
because they reach deeper.
39:06 – 39:07
Sunlight damages the top four to
39:07 – 39:08
six inches.
39:09 – 39:10
Fungicides, I don't know what
39:10 – 39:12
the limitations are, how deep
39:12 – 39:13
they go down, but they reach
39:13 – 39:14
deep and they have a significant
39:14 – 39:15
negative effect that is long
39:15 – 39:17
lasting and difficult to recover
39:17 – 39:18
from.
39:18 – 39:20
So fungicide applications, and
39:20 – 39:21
I'm referring specifically, I'm
39:21 – 39:22
not referring to
39:22 – 39:24
sulfur and copper applications.
39:24 – 39:25
I'm referring specifically to
39:25 – 39:26
synthetic fungicide
39:26 – 39:27
applications. They will have a
39:27 – 39:29
long -term detrimental effect on
39:29 – 39:30
soil fungal populations.
39:35 – 39:36
Any
39:36 – 39:39
questions on this piece or what
39:39 – 39:39
we've talked about?
39:39 – 39:40
Yes.
39:45 – 39:46
No, not at all.
39:47 – 39:48
No, not at all.
39:49 – 39:49
That,
39:50 – 39:52
when I say biocides, I'm most
39:52 – 39:53
specifically referring to
39:53 – 39:53
fungicides.
39:53 – 39:54
Their impact is
39:54 – 39:55
disproportionately larger than
39:55 – 39:56
everything else.
39:57 – 40:00
The key difference between a
40:00 – 40:02
synthetic fungicide and, let's
40:02 – 40:04
say, a mustard, for example,
40:04 – 40:06
is that those
40:06 – 40:08
naturally occurring compounds
40:08 – 40:10
are degraded by the soil
40:10 – 40:12
biology. In a matter of days or
40:12 – 40:13
weeks, they're gone.
40:14 – 40:15
And they have very specific
40:15 – 40:16
targeted influences,
40:16 – 40:17
and then the whole microbiome
40:17 – 40:18
tends to recover.
40:18 – 40:19
They'll guide the microbiome in
40:19 – 40:20
a certain direction.
40:20 – 40:21
but the whole thing recovers
40:21 – 40:22
very well.
40:23 – 40:24
Yes, Greg.
40:24 – 40:25
So, John, you're talking about
40:25 – 40:26
fungicides.
40:26 – 40:27
Look, we're grapefruits, right?
40:27 – 40:28
If you want to prove that what
40:28 – 40:30
we're doing doesn't work, don't
40:30 – 40:31
stay on top of your powdery
40:31 – 40:32
mildew program,
40:32 – 40:33
and you'll get really good,
40:33 – 40:35
obvious results that this isn't
40:35 – 40:36
working.
40:37 – 40:39
It's a mandated transition.
40:39 – 40:40
Hang on. Can you just expand on
40:40 – 40:41
that, Phil?
40:41 – 40:43
Yeah, so powdery mildew is
40:43 – 40:44
pretty consistent.
40:44 – 40:45
Even some of the best vineyards
40:45 – 40:47
are often susceptible to powdery
40:47 – 40:48
mildew. I think it's a
40:48 – 40:49
combination of genetics.
40:50 – 40:51
It's a combination of the
40:51 – 40:52
transition of going from a
40:52 – 40:54
system that's not functioning to
40:54 – 40:56
a nutrient system that is.
40:57 – 40:58
In our blocks that are in
40:58 – 40:59
transition, we notice we use
40:59 – 41:01
less fungicide, but I still have
41:01 – 41:02
to use them.
41:02 – 41:04
I still need to get a clean crop
41:04 – 41:05
to my winemaker.
41:06 – 41:07
The question I have is, when you
41:07 – 41:09
talk about fungicides, are you
41:09 – 41:11
specifically talking about more
41:11 – 41:13
of the synthetics, like toxin,
41:13 – 41:15
or Rowley, or those versus
41:15 – 41:17
things like stylet oil,
41:17 – 41:19
bacillus stibulus, or some of
41:19 – 41:20
the others? Yeah, yeah.
41:20 – 41:21
Yeah, correct. Absolutely
41:21 – 41:22
correct. It's an important
41:22 – 41:23
clarification. I'm talking
41:23 – 41:24
specifically about the synthetic
41:24 – 41:25
chemistry.
41:25 – 41:26
The synthetic chemistry
41:26 – 41:28
that what
41:28 – 41:31
happens with, say, stylet oil,
41:32 – 41:34
or these bacterial inoculants,
41:34 – 41:35
or those types of materials,
41:36 – 41:38
When they reach the soil,
41:40 – 41:41
they're applied to the plant.
41:41 – 41:42
Some of it reaches the soil.
41:42 – 41:43
Eventually, all of it reaches
41:43 – 41:44
the soil.
41:45 – 41:46
The other soil microbes
41:47 – 41:50
and the whole community will
41:50 – 41:51
take those molecules apart.
41:51 – 41:52
And in a matter of days or
41:52 – 41:53
weeks, they're gone.
41:54 – 41:56
But the synthetic fungicides
41:56 – 41:57
have a long -term,
41:58 – 41:59
very detrimental effect,
41:59 – 42:00
particularly on the soil fungal
42:00 – 42:01
community.
42:02 – 42:04
And again,
42:06 – 42:06
this is one of the things that I
42:06 – 42:08
don't understand or don't have a
42:08 – 42:09
good explanation for.
42:10 – 42:12
one of our most popular products
42:12 – 42:14
that gets used on...
42:15 – 42:16
by far the largest number of
42:16 – 42:17
acres is BioCoat Gold.
42:18 – 42:19
So BioCoat Gold is a seed
42:19 – 42:20
treatment
42:19 – 42:21
that is a combination of
42:21 – 42:23
mycorrhizal fungi and a couple
42:23 – 42:24
dozen different species of
42:24 – 42:26
bacteria and some other things
42:26 – 42:26
that we don't talk about.
42:27 – 42:28
And
42:29 – 42:32
BioCoat Gold gets applied to
42:32 – 42:34
fungicide -treated corn seed and
42:34 – 42:35
fungicide -treated soybean seed
42:35 – 42:36
all the time.
42:37 – 42:38
And growers ask, well,
42:39 – 42:40
how does it work?
42:40 – 42:41
How can you get
42:42 – 42:45
mycorrhizal fungi inoculation on
42:45 – 42:46
fungicide -treated seed?
42:47 – 42:48
And the answer is, I don't know.
42:49 – 42:50
I don't have an explanation.
42:51 – 42:52
It does. We clearly have the
42:52 – 42:53
evidence. We've measured it.
42:54 – 42:55
We can do treated and untreated,
42:55 – 42:56
and we can measure the
42:56 – 42:57
mycorrhizal colonization, and
42:57 – 42:58
there is a substantial,
42:59 – 43:01
measurable difference in
43:01 – 43:02
mycorrhizal colonization.
43:02 – 43:04
But so I'm
43:04 – 43:05
of the persuasion that there is,
43:06 – 43:08
again, there is this synergistic
43:08 – 43:10
community effect when you have
43:10 – 43:11
bacteria and fungi and various
43:11 – 43:12
organisms work together in
43:12 – 43:13
concert,
43:14 – 43:15
where you apply a
43:17 – 43:19
a naturally occurring compound,
43:19 – 43:20
such as sulfur,
43:21 – 43:25
to a community that is a blend
43:25 – 43:27
of bacteria and fungi, and they
43:27 – 43:28
rapidly take it apart.
43:29 – 43:30
These synthetic fungicides,
43:32 – 43:34
now I might just be, you might
43:34 – 43:34
be thinking, I might just be
43:34 – 43:36
disproving my own story, and
43:36 – 43:37
maybe I am,
43:37 – 43:39
but on a seed treatment,
43:39 – 43:41
we're applying, fungicides are
43:41 – 43:42
applied as a seed treatment at a
43:42 – 43:44
rate of a few ounces per acre at
43:44 – 43:45
most.
43:45 – 43:46
You're applying, over the course
43:46 – 43:47
of the season, you're applying
43:47 – 43:49
100x that amount in a vineyard.
43:50 – 43:51
And that's where the significant
43:51 – 43:52
difference comes in.
43:53 – 43:54
Yes.
43:56 – 43:57
Let
43:57 – 44:00
me see what the next
44:00 – 44:01
slide is.
44:02 – 44:04
Let's just skip down a few here.
44:05 – 44:06
What happened to the pinion
44:06 – 44:07
slides?
44:07 – 44:07
There it is.
44:09 – 44:10
Yes.
44:10 – 44:10
So,
44:11 – 44:12
Greg, you're talking today,
44:12 – 44:13
right? Are you going to talk
44:13 – 44:14
about pinion?
44:14 – 44:15
Yeah, I'll mention it.
44:15 – 44:16
All right.
44:17 – 44:18
So, yes, this is the time to
44:18 – 44:19
talk about pinion.
44:19 – 44:20
This is
44:21 – 44:22
literally one of the most
44:22 – 44:23
exciting. There's about
44:24 – 44:25
three or four really exciting
44:25 – 44:26
things that I've worked on the
44:26 – 44:27
last half a dozen years.
44:28 – 44:29
One of them is field bark.
44:30 – 44:32
One of them is CropTix, which is
44:32 – 44:33
this in -field handheld sensor
44:33 – 44:34
that's going to replace SAP
44:34 – 44:35
Analysis.
44:36 – 44:37
That's going to have a beta
44:37 – 44:38
launch next spring.
44:38 – 44:39
I'm pretty excited about that.
44:40 – 44:41
But in terms of agronomic
44:41 – 44:42
products,
44:42 – 44:43
I'm more excited about this than
44:43 – 44:45
anything I've worked on in a
44:45 – 44:46
long time.
44:46 – 44:47
So,
44:48 – 44:49
opinion
44:49 – 44:49
is,
44:52 – 44:53
as of this point,
44:54 – 44:55
we're now a
44:55 – 44:56
year and a half
44:56 – 44:58
into testing it in the field.
44:59 – 45:01
And as of this point,
45:01 – 45:03
We have tried it on close to
45:03 – 45:05
three dozen different disease
45:05 – 45:06
and crop combinations,
45:06 – 45:08
both bacterial diseases and
45:08 – 45:08
fungal diseases.
45:11 – 45:13
In various contexts, some of
45:13 – 45:14
them we had untreated controls,
45:14 – 45:17
but most of them we had treated
45:17 – 45:19
controls comparing it with a
45:19 – 45:20
conventional fungicide
45:20 – 45:20
application.
45:21 – 45:23
And so far, it has matched or
45:23 – 45:24
exceeded the performance of
45:24 – 45:25
every conventional fungicide
45:25 – 45:26
it's been compared against on
45:26 – 45:27
every different disease it's
45:27 – 45:28
been compared against.
45:29 – 45:30
And it's a completely naturally
45:30 – 45:31
occurring material.
45:31 – 45:33
It's a, it's a class, it's
45:33 – 45:35
called a class 25B biocontrol.
45:37 – 45:38
I was having a conversation with
45:38 – 45:39
Pedro this morning.
45:39 – 45:40
It is available here in
45:40 – 45:41
California.
45:41 – 45:42
It is NOP compliant.
45:43 – 45:44
CDFA has reviewed it and
45:44 – 45:45
approved it for one grower.
45:45 – 45:46
So they've paved the way for
45:46 – 45:47
others.
45:47 – 45:48
So what is pinion?
45:50 – 45:51
What,
45:51 – 45:52
what does it do exactly?
45:55 – 45:56
I'm just going to,
45:56 – 45:58
well, maybe people think
45:58 – 45:59
differently about, okay,
46:00 – 46:02
for me, I want to understand how
46:02 – 46:03
a product,
46:03 – 46:04
what it does, and then I can
46:04 – 46:05
tell you how it works.
46:05 – 46:07
and the effect that it has.
46:07 – 46:08
So what
46:09 – 46:10
Pinion does,
46:11 – 46:12
it does a few things.
46:12 – 46:13
First,
46:13 – 46:15
if you're familiar with Olivier
46:15 – 46:17
Hussain's work on Redox and
46:17 – 46:19
changing the Redox environment
46:19 – 46:20
of plants,
46:20 – 46:21
Pinion
46:21 – 46:22
changes
46:22 – 46:24
the Redox
46:25 – 46:27
environment on the leaf surface
46:27 – 46:29
and inside the leaf,
46:30 – 46:31
both at the same time.
46:32 – 46:34
Now that effect, that Redox
46:34 – 46:35
shift,
46:35 – 46:37
is temporary because plants
46:37 – 46:39
desire homeostasis,
46:39 – 46:41
and so they will shift back.
46:41 – 46:43
But that effect of shifting the
46:43 – 46:45
redox environment on the leaf
46:45 – 46:46
surface and inside the leaf
46:46 – 46:50
will last for about 24 to 48
46:50 – 46:52
hours, up to as much as 72
46:52 – 46:53
hours, but 24 to 48 hours.
46:53 – 46:55
And so this is why we've had a
46:55 – 46:56
number of people who've tried
46:56 – 46:57
it,
46:57 – 47:00
and when they have an infection,
47:00 – 47:02
a powdery mildew infection that
47:02 – 47:03
is already present,
47:03 – 47:05
They put it on and immediately,
47:05 – 47:06
24 hours later, they see a
47:06 – 47:07
difference.
47:08 – 47:10
And this is the mechanism that
47:10 – 47:11
has that. This is the only
47:11 – 47:12
mechanism that I'm aware of
47:12 – 47:14
inside pinion that responds that
47:14 – 47:15
rapidly and that has that rapid
47:15 – 47:16
of an effect.
47:17 – 47:18
The second
47:19 – 47:21
influence that it has is because
47:21 – 47:22
of changing the redox
47:22 – 47:23
environment in part,
47:25 – 47:28
and in part because of some of
47:28 – 47:29
the microbial metabolites that
47:29 – 47:30
it contains,
47:31 – 47:32
it changes the microbiome
47:32 – 47:34
composition on the leaf
47:35 – 47:36
and within the leaf,
47:37 – 47:38
and it specifically upregulates,
47:38 – 47:40
there is this broad group of
47:40 – 47:43
microbes that are referred to
47:44 – 47:45
as,
47:45 – 47:47
this is the regulatory framework
47:47 – 47:48
in Europe,
47:48 – 47:49
is what they refer to as
47:49 – 47:51
phytosanitary bacteria.
47:52 – 47:54
And phytosanitary bacteria,
47:54 – 47:55
in plain and simple English,
47:56 – 47:58
simply are organisms that are
47:58 – 48:00
very effective at disabling
48:01 – 48:04
They suppress and clean up a
48:04 – 48:05
number of different diseases.
48:07 – 48:08
And then the third effect
48:08 – 48:11
is, and this is where we have
48:11 – 48:12
some preliminary documentation,
48:13 – 48:14
but there's
48:14 – 48:15
such a diversity of plant
48:15 – 48:16
species, there's a lot more
48:16 – 48:17
homework that we need to do
48:17 – 48:18
here.
48:18 – 48:19
But our understanding when we
48:19 – 48:22
measure mRNA expression
48:23 – 48:24
with
48:25 – 48:26
and without opinion application,
48:27 – 48:29
it appears that
48:30 – 48:32
Pinion is activating,
48:32 – 48:34
as far as we've been able to
48:34 – 48:35
identify at this very
48:35 – 48:36
preliminary stage,
48:36 – 48:38
at least 17 different immune
48:38 – 48:40
pathways within the plant.
48:41 – 48:43
So it is changing the plant's
48:43 – 48:44
epigenetic expression,
48:45 – 48:46
it's changing the plant's
48:46 – 48:47
microbiome, and it's changing
48:47 – 48:48
the redox environment.
48:49 – 48:52
And because of this effect, so
48:52 – 48:54
this first effect,
48:54 – 48:56
as I described, changing the
48:56 – 48:57
redox environment is a very
48:57 – 48:58
rapid effect.
48:58 – 49:00
That will produce a disease
49:00 – 49:02
response
49:03 – 49:05
of suppressing disease in a
49:05 – 49:06
matter of a day or two.
49:06 – 49:08
But the other two effects take
49:08 – 49:10
days to weeks to have peak
49:10 – 49:11
response.
49:11 – 49:13
So this is a type of material
49:13 – 49:15
that while many growers are
49:15 – 49:16
using it effectively as a
49:16 – 49:17
treatment, it's going to be most
49:17 – 49:18
effective as
49:18 – 49:19
a preventative.
49:21 – 49:22
Does that match your experience
49:22 – 49:22
with it, Greg?
49:23 – 49:24
We did it later in the season.
49:24 – 49:26
So we had an infestation of
49:26 – 49:29
powdery mildew and muscat.
49:30 – 49:31
We compared it to pristine.
49:32 – 49:33
And it was comparable,
49:34 – 49:35
but it was later in the season.
49:35 – 49:36
We didn't get a chance to do
49:36 – 49:37
this yet.
49:39 – 49:40
What we've observed,
49:40 – 49:41
and again, there's,
49:42 – 49:44
as you can tell from the various
49:44 – 49:45
mechanisms, the modes of action,
49:46 – 49:47
there
49:48 – 49:49
is a degree of environmental
49:49 – 49:50
dependency here.
49:51 – 49:53
There's a degree of, the degree
49:53 – 49:54
of plant health and plant vigor
49:54 – 49:56
is going to, and the degree of
49:56 – 49:57
the microbiome, what the
49:57 – 49:58
microbiome that already exists
49:58 – 49:59
is,
50:00 – 50:02
has the ability to influence the
50:02 – 50:03
product's effectiveness.
50:03 – 50:05
But we have a number of growers
50:05 – 50:07
who have put on an application,
50:08 – 50:08
one application
50:09 – 50:11
having a six to an eight week
50:11 – 50:12
effect.
50:13 – 50:15
as compared to three to four
50:15 – 50:16
fungicide applications.
50:17 – 50:18
But that also hasn't always been
50:18 – 50:19
the case. There have been some
50:19 – 50:20
environments where it didn't
50:20 – 50:21
have that six to eight week
50:21 – 50:22
effect. And I'm of the
50:22 – 50:23
persuasion it was because of the
50:23 – 50:24
microbiome and because of the
50:24 – 50:25
environment that they put it in.
50:27 – 50:28
So I'm
50:30 – 50:31
more than a little bit excited
50:31 – 50:31
about Penyon.
50:32 – 50:33
John, another thought.
50:33 – 50:34
If it's stimulating a genetic
50:34 – 50:35
response,
50:36 – 50:38
how much of an effect do you
50:38 – 50:40
think where you are in sort of
50:40 – 50:40
the plant health pyramid?
50:41 – 50:42
I mean, if we're at level one,
50:42 – 50:42
right?
50:43 – 50:44
Are we going to get a good
50:44 – 50:44
response?
50:45 – 50:46
Or how dependent is it?
50:46 – 50:48
Like, do you need to be at least
50:48 – 50:49
at level two so you're starting
50:49 – 50:51
to get that ASR, SAR,
50:52 – 50:53
you know, response?
50:55 – 50:57
I think it depends more.
51:01 – 51:03
As I understand what is
51:03 – 51:05
happening within plants and with
51:05 – 51:05
this product,
51:07 – 51:09
the major variable
51:10 – 51:11
dependent on plant health is
51:11 – 51:12
going to be time of
51:12 – 51:13
effectiveness.
51:14 – 51:15
So you
51:15 – 51:17
might have opinion application
51:17 – 51:18
be very effective for five to
51:18 – 51:20
seven days on a stress plant and
51:20 – 51:21
then shut off.
51:22 – 51:23
Whereas on
51:23 – 51:25
a plant that has abundant levels
51:25 – 51:26
of energy,
51:26 – 51:28
that same degree, those same
51:28 – 51:30
resistance mechanisms will now
51:30 – 51:31
last for five to six to eight
51:31 – 51:32
weeks.
51:32 – 51:33
So I think it's a question of
51:33 – 51:34
the longevity of the effect.
51:36 – 51:37
Yeah.
51:37 – 51:40
Are you using it as a
51:40 – 51:41
preventative or is this a
51:41 – 51:42
reactionary?
51:43 – 51:45
We're using it in both ways.
51:45 – 51:46
Most of the experience that we
51:46 – 51:47
have so far, as Greg's
51:47 – 51:49
experience, is using it
51:49 – 51:50
reactionary. but
51:50 – 51:53
we have some limited experience
51:53 – 51:54
with it as a preventative
51:54 – 51:55
and We
51:57 – 51:59
had two treatments on
51:59 – 52:01
strawberries at the beginning of
52:01 – 52:04
the season Effectively
52:05 – 52:06
replaced eight fungicide
52:06 – 52:07
applications later.
52:09 – 52:09
Yeah.
52:10 – 52:11
Yes
52:22 – 52:24
It is somewhat systemic, but I
52:24 – 52:26
don't know to what degree.
52:27 – 52:29
It is somewhat systemic and I'm
52:29 – 52:30
certain this is the case because
52:30 – 52:31
we actually did some
52:31 – 52:32
experimentation where we
52:32 – 52:33
isolated leaves or isolated
52:33 – 52:36
branches and there is a systemic
52:36 – 52:38
effect and that it does
52:38 – 52:39
transfer.
52:39 – 52:42
We found limited transfer from
52:42 – 52:44
branch to branch on fruit trees.
52:45 – 52:47
But we did find transfer from
52:47 – 52:49
leaf to leaf on the same branch.
52:49 – 52:51
So there is some degree of
52:51 – 52:53
systemic activity that goes on,
52:53 – 52:54
but I don't know yet fully to
52:54 – 52:55
what degree.
52:56 – 52:57
So that's good news.
52:57 – 52:59
Perfect coverage isn't required
52:59 – 53:00
as a resistance mechanism.
53:00 – 53:02
Now, if you're doing it as a
53:02 – 53:02
treatment,
53:02 – 53:03
then I would expect that to be
53:03 – 53:04
the case.
53:06 – 53:07
Any other questions on pinion?
53:10 – 53:11
I wonder how many of you are not
53:11 – 53:12
going to try it this next year.
53:13 – 53:14
Yes.
53:15 – 53:16
There is no pre -harvest
53:16 – 53:17
interval.
53:17 – 53:18
There is no pre -harvest
53:18 – 53:19
interval like this.
53:21 – 53:22
This is being recorded, so I'm
53:22 – 53:23
not going to say that you can
53:23 – 53:24
drink it, but I'd happily drink
53:24 – 53:25
it.
53:26 – 53:27
I know how it's made.
53:28 – 53:29
Yes.
53:33 – 53:34
Why
53:34 – 53:42
are
53:44 – 53:45
you laughing? Greg?
53:47 – 53:48
It's the parallel universe
53:48 – 53:49
reality, Greg.
53:50 – 53:51
You know, a lot of us live in a
53:51 – 53:52
very different reality.
53:53 – 53:55
I mean, not to answer for Tom,
53:55 – 53:57
but I think the difference is we
53:57 – 53:59
see the world for what it really
53:59 – 54:00
is, and a lot of the rest of the
54:00 – 54:01
world see the world for what
54:01 – 54:03
they wish it was, which is a
54:03 – 54:04
very simple linear system.
54:04 – 54:06
It's not. It's a complex
54:06 – 54:07
biological system.
54:07 – 54:08
And when you understand this,
54:08 – 54:10
this kind of approach makes
54:10 – 54:11
sense.
54:11 – 54:11
I mean, they've done that with
54:11 – 54:13
some of the others, like, you
54:13 – 54:14
know, Japonica, and there's
54:14 – 54:16
others that have gone down this
54:16 – 54:16
path.
54:18 – 54:19
The short version,
54:20 – 54:21
you know,
54:21 – 54:23
I try to understand first
54:26 – 54:28
cause mechanisms and first
54:28 – 54:29
principles.
54:29 – 54:31
And I've used that same type of
54:31 – 54:32
thinking to try to understand
54:33 – 54:34
why
54:36 – 54:38
have we adopted this particular
54:38 – 54:39
approach to agronomy over the
54:39 – 54:40
last 60 to 80 years?
54:42 – 54:44
Why has our agricultural system
54:44 – 54:46
evolved? Why is genetically
54:46 – 54:48
modified Roundup Ready corn 90 %
54:48 – 54:49
of our corn production?
54:51 – 54:52
And I'm
54:53 – 54:54
of the persuasion
54:54 – 54:57
that one of the foundational
54:57 – 54:58
reasons why we have this
54:58 – 55:00
particular model of agriculture
55:01 – 55:02
is protectable,
55:02 – 55:03
patentable intellectual
55:03 – 55:04
property.
55:05 – 55:07
And when we view product
55:07 – 55:08
development through that lens of
55:08 – 55:09
how mainstream products are
55:09 – 55:10
developed,
55:10 – 55:13
it describes why we have GMOs.
55:13 – 55:15
It describes why we have single
55:15 – 55:17
motive action fungicides and
55:17 – 55:18
pesticides
55:19 – 55:20
more generally.
55:22 – 55:23
But that's not the way
55:23 – 55:24
biological systems actually
55:24 – 55:25
work. And this is one of the
55:25 – 55:26
reasons why so
55:27 – 55:29
many biocontrol products
55:30 – 55:32
fail in the long term,
55:32 – 55:34
is because if you want to have
55:34 – 55:35
protectable intellectual
55:35 – 55:36
property,
55:36 – 55:38
they try to identify,
55:38 – 55:39
and I'm just going to
55:39 – 55:40
oversimplify this.
55:40 – 55:41
conversation here a little bit,
55:41 – 55:42
but they try to identify a
55:42 – 55:43
specific
55:43 – 55:45
organism that can suppress one
55:45 – 55:46
specific other organism.
55:46 – 55:49
They try to find a bug that will
55:49 – 55:50
treat powdery mildew.
55:51 – 55:52
But the reality is that's not
55:52 – 55:53
how biological ecosystems
55:53 – 55:55
actually work. You have a
55:55 – 55:55
community effect.
55:56 – 55:57
You have a consortium effect
55:57 – 55:59
where you have dozens of
55:59 – 56:00
different microbes across a
56:00 – 56:01
number of different species that
56:01 – 56:02
have a collective effect on
56:02 – 56:03
powdery mildew.
56:04 – 56:05
And so
56:06 – 56:07
It's that type of thinking,
56:08 – 56:10
to come back and to answer your
56:10 – 56:11
question,
56:12 – 56:14
I briefly described biocode
56:14 – 56:17
gold. That biocode gold is
56:17 – 56:20
a combination of bacterial
56:20 – 56:21
inoculant,
56:22 – 56:24
mycorrhizal fungi inoculant,
56:24 – 56:25
other fungi,
56:26 – 56:27
other species that don't fall
56:27 – 56:28
into those two groups,
56:28 – 56:30
specific nutritional supports
56:30 – 56:32
and phytohormonal supports for
56:32 – 56:33
both plants and microbes.
56:33 – 56:35
So there's this complexity.
56:38 – 56:39
I've described in some of my
56:39 – 56:41
presentations this idea of
56:41 – 56:42
synergistic stacking.
56:43 – 56:44
What we've found in biological
56:44 – 56:46
systems over and over again is
56:46 – 56:48
that if you
56:48 – 56:51
can accurately identify
56:51 – 56:55
which species or which
56:55 – 56:56
groups or which products
56:56 – 56:57
synergize with each other,
56:59 – 57:01
there is this nonlinear effect.
57:02 – 57:04
And so much of agriculture,
57:04 – 57:06
we've developed this very linear
57:06 – 57:07
perspective that one plus one
57:07 – 57:08
equals two and that we,
57:09 – 57:10
it's this very mechanistic
57:10 – 57:11
perspective.
57:12 – 57:13
And with biology,
57:13 – 57:15
if you combine a
57:15 – 57:17
synergistic stack, let's say
57:17 – 57:18
you're putting together a foliar
57:18 – 57:20
application and you include a
57:20 – 57:22
plant biostimulant and a
57:22 – 57:23
microbial biostimulant
57:24 – 57:26
and a source of plant nutrition.
57:27 – 57:28
and a plant immune accelerator
57:28 – 57:31
and a bacterial inoculant and a
57:31 – 57:32
fungal inoculant you can put
57:32 – 57:34
together these products from
57:34 – 57:35
these very different categories
57:35 – 57:37
and sometimes if you get it
57:37 – 57:39
right one plus one doesn't equal
57:39 – 57:40
two it equals eleven and
57:41 – 57:42
that's a lot of fun when that
57:42 – 57:44
happens that's kind of the the
57:44 – 57:46
same thinking behind the
57:46 – 57:48
development of pinion is how do
57:48 – 57:51
we develop a synergistic stack
57:51 – 57:53
of modes of actions and
57:53 – 57:55
mechanisms that is so
57:55 – 57:56
integrated.
57:56 – 57:59
And it integrates the plant's
57:59 – 58:00
entire microbial community,
58:01 – 58:02
the microbiome, and the plant
58:02 – 58:04
resistance mechanisms in itself
58:04 – 58:06
as well. So when you combine all
58:06 – 58:07
of those together,
58:07 – 58:09
you get this much greater effect
58:09 – 58:10
than
58:10 – 58:11
when you just do one or two
58:11 – 58:11
things on its own.
58:11 – 58:12
That's how the biological
58:12 – 58:13
community was really designed to
58:13 – 58:14
work.
58:19 – 58:20
How many of you have not heard
58:20 – 58:21
me talk about the plant health
58:21 – 58:21
pyramid?
58:22 – 58:23
All right, almost everyone has.
58:23 – 58:25
I've only talked about it 1 ,001
58:25 – 58:26
times.
58:30 – 58:32
I'm not going to go into much
58:32 – 58:33
detail here on the plant health
58:33 – 58:35
pyramid other than to say this
58:35 – 58:36
conversation that we were just
58:36 – 58:37
having,
58:38 – 58:39
what happens, what I've observed
58:40 – 58:41
is in
58:42 – 58:43
order to get,
58:43 – 58:45
I've made this distinction in
58:45 – 58:45
the past,
58:46 – 58:48
level one and level two is based
58:48 – 58:50
on good, balanced chemistry.
58:51 – 58:52
You can do this with SAP
58:52 – 58:53
analysis and foliar applications
58:53 – 58:54
in a very straightforward
58:54 – 58:55
manner.
58:55 – 58:57
But level three, I used to say
58:57 – 58:58
that level three and level four
58:58 – 59:00
is based on very vigorous soil
59:00 – 59:01
biology.
59:02 – 59:03
If I had to restate this today,
59:03 – 59:04
I would say that getting to
59:04 – 59:05
level 3
59:05 – 59:07
occurs in conjunction with
59:07 – 59:08
getting to quorum sensing.
59:09 – 59:10
There's some degree of quorum
59:10 – 59:12
sensing that needs to happen in
59:12 – 59:12
order to get to level 3.
59:16 – 59:17
And it's
59:17 – 59:20
also to the point that these
59:20 – 59:21
gentlemen were making earlier,
59:22 – 59:24
once you get to level 3 of
59:24 – 59:25
planned health,
59:25 – 59:26
um there's
59:29 – 59:32
a there's a comment that i made
59:32 – 59:33
when i was talking about the
59:33 – 59:34
rhizophagy cycle and i want to
59:34 – 59:35
go back and just re -emphasize
59:35 – 59:36
it again i
59:39 – 59:41
used to describe what
59:41 – 59:43
is happening at level three is
59:44 – 59:46
that soil biology is
59:46 – 59:48
delivering nutrition in a more
59:48 – 59:49
efficient form
59:50 – 59:52
so plants are getting nutrients
59:52 – 59:54
more efficiently and because
59:54 – 59:54
they're getting nutrients more
59:54 – 59:55
efficiently
59:55 – 59:59
they are capturing and storing
59:59 – 1:00:01
extra energy in the form of fats
1:00:01 – 1:00:02
that
1:00:02 – 1:00:03
is still true
1:00:04 – 1:00:05
but
1:00:05 – 1:00:07
My present understanding is that
1:00:07 – 1:00:09
that is actually a minority of
1:00:09 – 1:00:10
where the fat in plants comes
1:00:10 – 1:00:11
from.
1:00:11 – 1:00:13
The majority of the fat that
1:00:13 – 1:00:14
shows up in plants,
1:00:15 – 1:00:15
these lipids,
1:00:16 – 1:00:18
comes from soil biology.
1:00:19 – 1:00:20
It comes from these
1:00:20 – 1:00:22
sphingolipids that are coming
1:00:22 – 1:00:25
from bacteria moving up into the
1:00:25 – 1:00:27
plant and depositing lipids into
1:00:27 – 1:00:29
plant cells and then going back
1:00:29 – 1:00:30
down for more.
1:00:30 – 1:00:32
So, if we want to talk about
1:00:32 – 1:00:34
having very high energy content
1:00:34 – 1:00:36
plants that have a very high oil
1:00:36 – 1:00:38
content, very high wax content,
1:00:38 – 1:00:40
and have exceptional degrees of
1:00:40 – 1:00:41
disease resistant and insect
1:00:41 – 1:00:42
resistance,
1:00:42 – 1:00:44
it's coming from soil biology,
1:00:45 – 1:00:46
delivering those fats into the
1:00:46 – 1:00:48
plant, not just from increased
1:00:48 – 1:00:49
photosynthesis.
1:00:49 – 1:00:50
Yes?
1:00:56 – 1:00:57
I assume they're bringing back
1:00:57 – 1:00:58
carbohydrates and other stuff
1:00:58 – 1:00:59
for the soil.
1:01:00 – 1:01:01
How are they making that
1:01:01 – 1:01:02
transfer?
1:01:03 – 1:01:04
Are they bringing lipids for
1:01:04 – 1:01:05
that as well?
1:01:07 – 1:01:07
Are you asking,
1:01:07 – 1:01:09
are microbes transporting lipids
1:01:09 – 1:01:11
back down into the soil or
1:01:12 – 1:01:13
sugars?
1:01:19 – 1:01:20
That's a good question.
1:01:20 – 1:01:21
My understanding right now is
1:01:21 – 1:01:24
that it's actually plants and
1:01:24 – 1:01:24
flora.
1:01:25 – 1:01:27
microbes themselves are not
1:01:27 – 1:01:28
responsible for transporting
1:01:28 – 1:01:30
carbohydrates down.
1:01:30 – 1:01:31
There is not a direct mechanism
1:01:31 – 1:01:33
there. The plant itself wants to
1:01:33 – 1:01:34
stimulate that microbial
1:01:34 – 1:01:35
community and feed that
1:01:35 – 1:01:36
microbial community because it
1:01:36 – 1:01:37
is in the plant's interest.
1:01:37 – 1:01:39
So the plant actually is moving
1:01:39 – 1:01:40
a lot of,
1:01:40 – 1:01:42
is the primary driver and the
1:01:42 – 1:01:44
engine of moving sugars out into
1:01:44 – 1:01:44
the root system,
1:01:45 – 1:01:45
as I understand.
1:01:47 – 1:01:48
Yes,
1:01:48 – 1:01:49
microbes are an empty truck
1:01:49 – 1:01:50
going back.
1:01:51 – 1:01:53
This is such a different
1:01:53 – 1:01:54
perspective on plant nutrition.
1:01:56 – 1:01:56
So powerful.
1:01:58 – 1:01:59
All right.
1:01:59 – 1:02:00
There
1:02:02 – 1:02:03
are so many different pieces
1:02:03 – 1:02:05
that I could speak about here,
1:02:05 – 1:02:06
but
1:02:06 – 1:02:08
I'll just speak a bit to what is
1:02:08 – 1:02:10
happening here at level four,
1:02:10 – 1:02:11
level three, and four combined
1:02:11 – 1:02:12
when we have increased
1:02:12 – 1:02:12
phytonutrients.
1:02:13 – 1:02:15
This is where we start growing
1:02:15 – 1:02:17
wine on plants that resemble
1:02:17 – 1:02:18
grapes, not grapes that are
1:02:18 – 1:02:20
translated into wine.
1:02:22 – 1:02:24
And I wanted to talk about this
1:02:25 – 1:02:27
bell curve. So this is just,
1:02:28 – 1:02:30
a fictitious bell curve that I
1:02:30 – 1:02:32
made to illustrate a concept
1:02:32 – 1:02:34
about what we see happening in
1:02:34 – 1:02:36
plants more generally, not just
1:02:36 – 1:02:38
wine grapes, but also in others.
1:02:39 – 1:02:41
The historical perception, so
1:02:41 – 1:02:42
these,
1:02:44 – 1:02:46
I used this index as plant
1:02:46 – 1:02:47
biomass
1:02:47 – 1:02:50
as an analog for
1:02:50 – 1:02:52
photosynthetic efficiency.
1:02:52 – 1:02:54
So there's been this idea
1:02:55 – 1:02:58
in the production of a number of
1:02:58 – 1:02:59
different medicinal herbs, all
1:02:59 – 1:03:00
the way from sage production,
1:03:00 – 1:03:02
and I could give a long list,
1:03:02 – 1:03:03
but there's been this this
1:03:03 – 1:03:04
general idea that if we want to
1:03:04 – 1:03:06
produce plants that
1:03:06 – 1:03:08
have high phytonutrient
1:03:08 – 1:03:09
concentrations, that have
1:03:09 – 1:03:11
exceptional flavor and aroma
1:03:11 – 1:03:13
characteristics, then we need to
1:03:13 – 1:03:14
stress those plants,
1:03:15 – 1:03:16
and we need to reduce their
1:03:16 – 1:03:17
biomass production.
1:03:17 – 1:03:19
We stress them either with water
1:03:19 – 1:03:20
dilution,
1:03:20 – 1:03:22
or with nitrogen deprivation or
1:03:22 – 1:03:23
phosphorus deprivation.
1:03:24 – 1:03:25
Different nutrients are used in
1:03:25 – 1:03:26
different crops in different
1:03:26 – 1:03:26
contexts.
1:03:27 – 1:03:28
And the result is,
1:03:28 – 1:03:30
by inducing plant stress, we
1:03:30 – 1:03:31
limit the number of plant
1:03:31 – 1:03:32
biomass.
1:03:33 – 1:03:34
So here at this end, we limit
1:03:34 – 1:03:35
the amount of plant biomass, but
1:03:35 – 1:03:37
we have higher concentrations of
1:03:37 – 1:03:38
phytonutrients.
1:03:41 – 1:03:42
That is accurate, that is
1:03:42 – 1:03:43
effective. And then the
1:03:43 – 1:03:44
historical narrative has been
1:03:44 – 1:03:47
that as you remove water
1:03:47 – 1:03:49
deprivation or nitrogen or
1:03:49 – 1:03:50
phosphorus deprivation, you get
1:03:50 – 1:03:51
this increase in photosynthesis,
1:03:51 – 1:03:52
you get this increase in plant
1:03:52 – 1:03:53
biomass,
1:03:53 – 1:03:55
and you get this rapid reduction
1:03:55 – 1:03:56
in phytonutrient concentrations.
1:03:58 – 1:03:59
And that is also accurate.
1:03:59 – 1:04:01
But that is where the story
1:04:01 – 1:04:02
ended
1:04:02 – 1:04:03
for,
1:04:04 – 1:04:05
and that's as far as the story
1:04:05 – 1:04:06
has gone for mainstream
1:04:06 – 1:04:07
agronomy.
1:04:07 – 1:04:08
What we've come to understand is
1:04:08 – 1:04:09
that
1:04:09 – 1:04:10
this
1:04:10 – 1:04:11
there is this plateau.
1:04:12 – 1:04:13
So let's say that this describes
1:04:13 – 1:04:15
about a plant that is about 10
1:04:15 – 1:04:17
to 15%. Actually, if this plant
1:04:17 – 1:04:18
is stressed,
1:04:19 – 1:04:20
this is about somewhere in the
1:04:20 – 1:04:21
neighborhood of 5 to 10 %
1:04:21 – 1:04:22
photosynthetic efficiency.
1:04:24 – 1:04:26
You add water or phosphorus or
1:04:26 – 1:04:27
nitrogen, you get much higher
1:04:27 – 1:04:29
levels of plant biomass.
1:04:29 – 1:04:30
And now you're going to be in
1:04:30 – 1:04:32
the neighborhood of 15 to 20 %
1:04:32 – 1:04:33
photosynthetic efficiency here.
1:04:34 – 1:04:35
And this is what most of
1:04:35 – 1:04:37
agriculture is familiar with, is
1:04:37 – 1:04:38
plants that are
1:04:38 – 1:04:39
photosynthetically efficient in
1:04:39 – 1:04:40
the neighborhood of 15 to 20%.
1:04:41 – 1:04:43
But then if you work with
1:04:43 – 1:04:44
nutrition to
1:04:45 – 1:04:46
have
1:04:46 – 1:04:47
better
1:04:47 – 1:04:48
photosynthesis,
1:04:49 – 1:04:50
higher quality photosynthesis,
1:04:50 – 1:04:51
and you have a highly functional
1:04:51 – 1:04:52
microbiome,
1:04:53 – 1:04:54
your photosynthetic efficiency
1:04:54 – 1:04:55
will go up even further.
1:04:55 – 1:04:58
It'll go up to 35 to 40%.
1:04:58 – 1:05:01
And here's the piece that many
1:05:01 – 1:05:01
people have missed.
1:05:01 – 1:05:02
When you have a plant that has
1:05:02 – 1:05:03
these high degrees of
1:05:03 – 1:05:05
photosynthetic efficiency, you
1:05:05 – 1:05:06
also have much higher
1:05:06 – 1:05:08
concentrations of these
1:05:08 – 1:05:09
phytonutrients,
1:05:09 – 1:05:10
these phenolic and aromatic
1:05:10 – 1:05:11
compounds.
1:05:12 – 1:05:14
that will be at even higher
1:05:14 – 1:05:15
levels than they are today.
1:05:17 – 1:05:17
So this
1:05:20 – 1:05:22
idea that we need to stress
1:05:22 – 1:05:24
plants to produce high levels of
1:05:24 – 1:05:25
phytonutrients,
1:05:25 – 1:05:26
actually it's very simple.
1:05:26 – 1:05:28
Just try to persuade any
1:05:28 – 1:05:29
cannabis grower anywhere that
1:05:29 – 1:05:30
they should stress their plants.
1:05:31 – 1:05:32
You will not get to square one.
1:05:33 – 1:05:36
And the same concept can
1:05:36 – 1:05:38
also be applied to wine grape
1:05:38 – 1:05:39
production.
1:05:40 – 1:05:41
But we have to balance that.
1:05:42 – 1:05:43
If you
1:05:44 – 1:05:47
If you only use mainstream
1:05:47 – 1:05:48
agronomic approaches and you
1:05:48 – 1:05:49
only get to 15 to 20 %
1:05:49 – 1:05:51
photosynthetic efficiency, then
1:05:51 – 1:05:52
yes, you will have reduced
1:05:52 – 1:05:53
quality. You'll have reduced
1:05:53 – 1:05:53
phytonutrient content.
1:05:53 – 1:05:55
But we have to use these
1:05:55 – 1:05:57
biological approaches to push
1:05:57 – 1:05:58
past that threshold and get to
1:05:58 – 1:05:59
this point.
1:05:59 – 1:06:00
And then what
1:06:00 – 1:06:02
can happen is you can have more
1:06:02 – 1:06:04
grapes on a plant and
1:06:04 – 1:06:06
have better flavor production,
1:06:07 – 1:06:09
higher concentrations of flavor
1:06:09 – 1:06:10
and quality and phenolic
1:06:10 – 1:06:11
compounds in those
1:06:12 – 1:06:14
grapes.
1:06:14 – 1:06:15
So
1:06:16 – 1:06:17
the last
1:06:19 – 1:06:20
thought.
1:06:21 – 1:06:23
Well, there's a few things yet
1:06:23 – 1:06:24
that I'd like to speak to, but
1:06:24 – 1:06:25
when
1:06:26 – 1:06:27
we have these conversations
1:06:27 – 1:06:28
about regenerative agriculture
1:06:28 – 1:06:30
and around biology,
1:06:33 – 1:06:33
there are
1:06:35 – 1:06:37
discussions about incorporating
1:06:37 – 1:06:38
cover crops, having diverse
1:06:38 – 1:06:39
cover crop species,
1:06:40 – 1:06:40
incorporating livestock.
1:06:44 – 1:06:45
We
1:06:47 – 1:06:49
can make it sound really complex
1:06:49 – 1:06:50
and
1:06:50 – 1:06:51
really challenging,
1:06:51 – 1:06:53
challenging from an execution
1:06:53 – 1:06:54
perspective and from a
1:06:54 – 1:06:54
management perspective.
1:06:56 – 1:06:58
And I'm not suggesting that
1:06:58 – 1:06:59
those things are not valuable.
1:07:00 – 1:07:01
In fact,
1:07:01 – 1:07:02
I think particularly in the case
1:07:02 – 1:07:03
of cover crops, I think they're
1:07:03 – 1:07:04
absolutely necessary.
1:07:05 – 1:07:07
And I think livestock are also
1:07:07 – 1:07:07
very valuable.
1:07:08 – 1:07:12
But many of our soils and
1:07:12 – 1:07:14
many of our conditions that
1:07:14 – 1:07:15
we're growing plants in have
1:07:15 – 1:07:17
degraded to such a degree
1:07:18 – 1:07:20
that there are many things we
1:07:20 – 1:07:21
can do that will have a
1:07:21 – 1:07:23
significant impact before
1:07:23 – 1:07:24
getting to that point.
1:07:25 – 1:07:26
And earlier,
1:07:27 – 1:07:29
I described the three biggest
1:07:29 – 1:07:30
things that have the most
1:07:30 – 1:07:32
damaging effect on soil biology
1:07:32 – 1:07:33
and soil health,
1:07:33 – 1:07:35
being bare exposed soil,
1:07:36 – 1:07:37
fertilizer applications,
1:07:37 – 1:07:39
and fungicide accumulation.
1:07:40 – 1:07:41
None of those things involve
1:07:41 – 1:07:42
livestock.
1:07:43 – 1:07:45
So getting soil covered is
1:07:45 – 1:07:47
probably going to include cover
1:07:47 – 1:07:47
crops.
1:07:48 – 1:07:51
But my point is only that
1:07:53 – 1:07:56
it's easy to get overwhelmed
1:07:56 – 1:07:58
and to just get the idea that
1:07:58 – 1:07:59
there is so much involved.
1:07:59 – 1:08:00
This is so complex and so
1:08:00 – 1:08:02
difficult and not to do anything
1:08:02 – 1:08:02
at all.
1:08:03 – 1:08:06
And we're all familiar with the
1:08:06 – 1:08:07
Pareto principle, the 80 -20
1:08:07 – 1:08:09
principle. It's often 80 % of
1:08:09 – 1:08:10
the results come from 20 % of
1:08:10 – 1:08:11
the things that you do.
1:08:12 – 1:08:13
And I'm of the persuasion
1:08:13 – 1:08:14
that
1:08:15 – 1:08:18
Adding livestock is valuable and
1:08:18 – 1:08:18
beneficial,
1:08:19 – 1:08:20
but it's probably not in the
1:08:20 – 1:08:22
first 80 % of what people need
1:08:22 – 1:08:23
to tackle.
1:08:23 – 1:08:25
There are some very simple,
1:08:25 – 1:08:27
straightforward things of simply
1:08:27 – 1:08:30
replacing salty fertilizers with
1:08:30 – 1:08:31
nutrient sources that don't have
1:08:31 – 1:08:32
a detrimental effect on soil
1:08:32 – 1:08:33
biology,
1:08:33 – 1:08:35
keeping our soil covered
1:08:35 – 1:08:37
with cover crop residue,
1:08:38 – 1:08:40
adding microbial inoculants, and
1:08:40 – 1:08:41
doing some of these practices
1:08:41 – 1:08:42
that are
1:08:42 – 1:08:44
much easier to implement
1:08:46 – 1:08:48
that will get us a long distance
1:08:48 – 1:08:49
down the road of where we want
1:08:49 – 1:08:49
to go.
1:08:53 – 1:08:54
And of course you see there you
1:08:54 – 1:08:55
have to replace fungicides with
1:08:55 – 1:08:56
pinion to get there.
1:09:00 – 1:09:01
All right,
1:09:01 – 1:09:01
I'll
1:09:03 – 1:09:04
speak just a bit yet about
1:09:05 – 1:09:05
photosynthesis,
1:09:07 – 1:09:09
and then I'm going to pause for
1:09:09 – 1:09:10
a break.
1:09:13 – 1:09:14
Ultimately,
1:09:14 – 1:09:16
in order to get this system to
1:09:16 – 1:09:17
work,
1:09:17 – 1:09:19
we have to have two things.
1:09:19 – 1:09:22
One is we have to have a diverse
1:09:22 – 1:09:23
microbial population of soil.
1:09:24 – 1:09:24
And second,
1:09:25 – 1:09:26
we need to get
1:09:27 – 1:09:28
large volumes of sugars out of
1:09:28 – 1:09:29
the soil. Yes, you have a
1:09:29 – 1:09:30
question.
1:09:36 – 1:09:39
As far as monitoring the
1:09:39 – 1:09:40
positive impacts you have on
1:09:40 – 1:09:42
soil biology by assessing the
1:09:42 – 1:09:44
community itself,
1:09:45 – 1:09:47
do you have recommendations on
1:09:47 – 1:09:49
who to use? There are labs out
1:09:49 – 1:09:50
there. I see Dan here with
1:09:50 – 1:09:52
agrology. I think monitoring
1:09:52 – 1:09:54
respiration is a great macro
1:09:54 – 1:09:55
indicator.
1:09:55 – 1:09:57
I would agree. In terms of
1:09:57 – 1:09:58
actually
1:09:58 – 1:10:00
trying to tailor the community
1:10:00 – 1:10:01
in the direction that you want
1:10:01 – 1:10:02
it, based on the soil and the
1:10:02 – 1:10:03
outcome,
1:10:03 – 1:10:04
you're trying to achieve.
1:10:21 – 1:10:21
It's
1:10:23 – 1:10:24
an outstanding question.
1:10:27 – 1:10:28
There are emerging technologies
1:10:28 – 1:10:30
that I think are going to get us
1:10:30 – 1:10:30
there.
1:10:31 – 1:10:33
Dr. Laura Kavanaugh,
1:10:33 – 1:10:34
who's now
1:10:35 – 1:10:37
running not trace genomics, but
1:10:37 – 1:10:39
genomic insights or
1:10:39 – 1:10:40
genome insights.
1:10:40 – 1:10:43
I'm very intrigued and impressed
1:10:43 – 1:10:44
with
1:10:44 – 1:10:45
her DNA sequencing work.
1:10:50 – 1:10:52
I've been quite frustrated over
1:10:52 – 1:10:54
the years with PLFA analysis and
1:10:54 – 1:10:56
all these various types of soil
1:10:56 – 1:10:57
microbiome analysis.
1:10:58 – 1:11:01
And maybe it's been a failure on
1:11:01 – 1:11:02
my part,
1:11:02 – 1:11:04
but I haven't understood how
1:11:05 – 1:11:06
to translate those lab results
1:11:06 – 1:11:08
into practical recommendations.
1:11:08 – 1:11:09
Okay, I have this information,
1:11:09 – 1:11:11
what do I do with it differently
1:11:11 – 1:11:11
from what I've been doing
1:11:11 – 1:11:12
before?
1:11:14 – 1:11:17
So I believe there is technology
1:11:17 – 1:11:18
coming that will get us to that
1:11:18 – 1:11:19
point.
1:11:20 – 1:11:21
We don't yet have the depth of
1:11:21 – 1:11:22
experience with it
1:11:23 – 1:11:24
to be able to say that with
1:11:24 – 1:11:25
certainty.
1:11:26 – 1:11:28
But what I can say kind of
1:11:28 – 1:11:29
broadly generally
1:11:30 – 1:11:31
is I've
1:11:32 – 1:11:33
come to the conclusion
1:11:34 – 1:11:36
that a diversity of plant
1:11:36 – 1:11:37
species
1:11:37 – 1:11:39
solves most problems,
1:11:40 – 1:11:41
prevents most problems.
1:11:42 – 1:11:44
And actually it's worth speaking
1:11:44 – 1:11:46
about this just a bit because I
1:11:46 – 1:11:47
didn't expand on it earlier.
1:11:50 – 1:11:51
Christine Jones from Australia
1:11:51 – 1:11:54
gave us the idea that we need to
1:11:54 – 1:11:55
have
1:11:55 – 1:11:57
plants from eight different
1:11:57 – 1:11:58
plant families.
1:11:59 – 1:12:00
And the basis for that
1:12:01 – 1:12:02
is,
1:12:02 – 1:12:03
so there's two thoughts here.
1:12:04 – 1:12:04
One is
1:12:05 – 1:12:06
recognizing that
1:12:07 – 1:12:09
each seed, we should start
1:12:09 – 1:12:11
thinking about our seeds as
1:12:11 – 1:12:12
microbial inoculants
1:12:12 – 1:12:15
because every seed is a vector
1:12:15 – 1:12:16
for a microbial community.
1:12:16 – 1:12:17
A corn seed has like nine
1:12:17 – 1:12:18
billion microorganisms in it
1:12:18 – 1:12:19
according to Dr.
1:12:19 – 1:12:20
White.
1:12:20 – 1:12:22
And we understand that each
1:12:22 – 1:12:24
plant species has its own
1:12:24 – 1:12:26
associated microbiome that it
1:12:26 – 1:12:27
prefers to have a relationship
1:12:27 – 1:12:29
with and that it carries along
1:12:29 – 1:12:30
from one generation to the next.
1:12:31 – 1:12:32
So when you have
1:12:34 – 1:12:36
eight different plant families,
1:12:37 – 1:12:38
not within family, but at least
1:12:38 – 1:12:40
eight different plant families.
1:12:40 – 1:12:41
And again, this is, this is
1:12:41 – 1:12:42
just,
1:12:42 – 1:12:44
there isn't, there is not a hard
1:12:44 – 1:12:46
science or anything that's
1:12:46 – 1:12:46
published around this.
1:12:46 – 1:12:47
It's just based on experience
1:12:47 – 1:12:49
and observation that when you
1:12:49 – 1:12:50
have eight different plant
1:12:50 – 1:12:52
families, you get these
1:12:52 – 1:12:53
synergistic quorum sensing
1:12:53 – 1:12:55
effects. That's the showing up.
1:12:56 – 1:12:59
And I've observed these quorum
1:12:59 – 1:13:00
sensing effects showing up with
1:13:00 – 1:13:02
as little as six plant families.
1:13:03 – 1:13:04
I don't know if there was
1:13:04 – 1:13:06
anything unique about that
1:13:06 – 1:13:07
particular combination.
1:13:07 – 1:13:08
So it can occur with less than
1:13:08 – 1:13:10
eight, but eight is kind of the
1:13:10 – 1:13:11
confidence threshold that we
1:13:11 – 1:13:12
have.
1:13:12 – 1:13:13
When we have eight different
1:13:13 – 1:13:14
plant families,
1:13:14 – 1:13:15
this whole microbial interaction
1:13:15 – 1:13:16
starts changing.
1:13:17 – 1:13:20
And so there is an element of
1:13:21 – 1:13:23
If we have enough microbial
1:13:23 – 1:13:24
diversity and
1:13:24 – 1:13:26
plant species diversity,
1:13:27 – 1:13:29
look, the reality is even with
1:13:30 – 1:13:33
very detailed DNA sequencing and
1:13:33 – 1:13:36
even with deep learning and AI,
1:13:37 – 1:13:39
I don't think we will ever begin
1:13:39 – 1:13:41
to fully understand the sheer
1:13:41 – 1:13:42
complexity of what happens in
1:13:42 – 1:13:43
the soil microbial community.
1:13:44 – 1:13:45
And there's also an element of
1:13:45 – 1:13:46
we don't need to.
1:13:48 – 1:13:49
You get to an overall level of
1:13:49 – 1:13:50
effectiveness and performance,
1:13:50 – 1:13:52
and it was designed to work.
1:13:53 – 1:13:54
We just need to give it
1:13:55 – 1:13:56
the nutrients, the energy that
1:13:56 – 1:13:57
it needs to work and get out of
1:13:57 – 1:13:58
the way.
1:13:59 – 1:14:00
So that's my answer to your
1:14:00 – 1:14:01
question.
1:14:02 – 1:14:04
And from a crop and plant
1:14:04 – 1:14:05
perspective,
1:14:05 – 1:14:06
do you have a crop that's
1:14:06 – 1:14:07
resistant, has increasing
1:14:07 – 1:14:09
resistance to disease and
1:14:09 – 1:14:10
insects?
1:14:10 – 1:14:11
I mean, there's so many
1:14:11 – 1:14:12
indicators, just practical real
1:14:12 – 1:14:13
world indicators of the
1:14:13 – 1:14:14
direction that we're going in.
1:14:17 – 1:14:20
So on this last thought
1:14:21 – 1:14:22
of photosynthesis, this is the
1:14:22 – 1:14:24
foundational fuel that
1:14:24 – 1:14:27
drives the entire ecosystem.
1:14:28 – 1:14:29
And it
1:14:30 – 1:14:31
would be,
1:14:32 – 1:14:33
Worthwhile to speak about this
1:14:33 – 1:14:34
in some detail.
1:14:35 – 1:14:36
You mentioned that agrology is
1:14:36 – 1:14:37
here and
1:14:37 – 1:14:38
that we have the ability to
1:14:38 – 1:14:39
measure CO2 flux in the
1:14:39 – 1:14:40
atmosphere.
1:14:41 – 1:14:43
I'm of the persuasion that CO2
1:14:43 – 1:14:45
is a limiting factor for crops
1:14:45 – 1:14:47
with at least as often, if not
1:14:47 – 1:14:49
more often, as water.
1:14:50 – 1:14:51
not having enough water.
1:14:51 – 1:14:53
So what we need for optimal
1:14:53 – 1:14:55
photosynthesis is we need
1:14:55 – 1:14:56
good carbon dioxide
1:14:56 – 1:14:57
availability,
1:14:57 – 1:14:58
we need water,
1:14:58 – 1:14:59
we need chlorophyll production,
1:15:00 – 1:15:03
and then those five elements.
1:15:06 – 1:15:07
And I'm actually going to
1:15:07 – 1:15:09
separate out manganese for
1:15:09 – 1:15:10
just a bit.
1:15:13 – 1:15:15
I find that in many instances,
1:15:15 – 1:15:16
if we
1:15:16 – 1:15:19
have plants that have generous
1:15:19 – 1:15:20
levels of chlorophyll,
1:15:21 – 1:15:22
They have generous levels of
1:15:22 – 1:15:23
water and carbon dioxide,
1:15:24 – 1:15:25
but they're still,
1:15:25 – 1:15:27
the energy production is not
1:15:27 – 1:15:28
where it needs to be.
1:15:29 – 1:15:30
Let me say it this way.
1:15:33 – 1:15:35
I'm persuaded that
1:15:36 – 1:15:38
when plants and
1:15:38 – 1:15:40
crops are stuck at
1:15:41 – 1:15:42
level one and level two of the
1:15:42 – 1:15:43
plant health pyramid, and they
1:15:43 – 1:15:45
struggle to get to level three,
1:15:46 – 1:15:47
it's because of two nutrients
1:15:47 – 1:15:49
not being an adequate supply.
1:15:50 – 1:15:51
They're manganese and boron.
1:15:54 – 1:15:56
And the reason for those two is
1:15:56 – 1:15:57
because
1:15:59 – 1:15:59
in
1:16:00 – 1:16:01
I'm persuaded that in many
1:16:01 – 1:16:02
crops,
1:16:02 – 1:16:06
manganese is the bottleneck.
1:16:06 – 1:16:08
It's the gating mechanism that
1:16:08 – 1:16:09
is gating photosynthesis and
1:16:09 – 1:16:10
overall sugar production.
1:16:12 – 1:16:14
So even if you have perfect
1:16:14 – 1:16:15
conditions with perfect
1:16:15 – 1:16:16
temperature and lighting and
1:16:16 – 1:16:17
dark green plants with
1:16:17 – 1:16:18
chlorophyll and adequate levels
1:16:18 – 1:16:19
of water and carbon dioxide,
1:16:20 – 1:16:21
if they don't have generous
1:16:21 – 1:16:22
levels of manganese, manganese
1:16:22 – 1:16:24
becomes the gating mechanism
1:16:24 – 1:16:25
that limits
1:16:25 – 1:16:27
overall photosynthesis and sugar
1:16:27 – 1:16:28
production.
1:16:28 – 1:16:29
And then
1:16:29 – 1:16:31
When you do have a plant that
1:16:31 – 1:16:32
has high levels of sugar
1:16:32 – 1:16:33
production,
1:16:33 – 1:16:36
boron is required to translocate
1:16:36 – 1:16:37
it down to the roots and to
1:16:37 – 1:16:40
translocate it into the berries
1:16:40 – 1:16:41
or the fruit or the grain.
1:16:42 – 1:16:43
And
1:16:43 – 1:16:46
I'm of the persuasion that if we
1:16:46 – 1:16:48
addressed those two and we made
1:16:48 – 1:16:49
sure that plants had generous
1:16:49 – 1:16:50
levels of those two, it'd be
1:16:50 – 1:16:52
much easier to
1:16:52 – 1:16:53
get to level three on Plant
1:16:53 – 1:16:54
Health Pyramid for many growers.
