Briana Bosch is the founder of Blossom and Branch, where she manages a two-acre flower micro-farm in Denver and a 180-acre family grain farm in Minnesota. With a background in journalism and a master’s in marketing, she has become a prominent voice in the regenerative movement by focusing on scaling soil health concepts for both small-scale market gardens and large-scale commodity operations.
Last year marked a significant milestone in her transition of the family’s century-old Minnesota farm, as she implemented intensive regenerative practices for the first time, including the total elimination of herbicides and fungicides on her experimental acreage.
In this episode, John and Briana discuss:
The role of authenticity and maintaining the “true voice” to build lasting trust
Her transition from using plastic mulch and netting to implementing living ground covers and high-carbon mulches like wood chips
How flower production can net a higher profit per acre than almost any other crop, including marijuana, when focused on local markets
The benefits of 60-inch corn rows for facilitating intercropping and cover crop growth within the constraints of a short northern growing season
Seed inoculation as the most effective “low-hanging fruit” for jump-starting soil biology and reducing synthetic fertilizer needs
The psychological and cultural barriers, such as “groupthink” and defensiveness, that often prevent farmers from adopting new practices
Additional Resources
To purchase Briana’s book, The Regenerative Gardener’s Handbook, please visit: https://www.blossomandbranch.com/the-regenerative-gardeners-handbook
To follow Briana on Instagram, please visit: https://www.instagram.com/blossomandbranch/
To subscribe to Briana’s YouTube channel, please visit: https://www.youtube.com/@BlossomandBranch
To purchase BioCoat Gold, please visit: https://advancingecoag.com/product/biocoat-gold-2/
About John Kempf
John Kempf is the founder of Advancing Eco Agriculture (AEA). A top expert in biological and regenerative farming, John founded AEA in 2006 to help fellow farmers by providing the education, tools, and strategies that will have a global effect on the food supply and those who grow it.
Through intense study and the knowledge gleaned from many industry leaders, John is building a comprehensive systems-based approach to plant nutrition – a system solidly based on the sciences of plant physiology, mineral nutrition, and soil microbiology.
Support For This Show & Helping You Grow
Since 2006, AEA has been on a mission to help growers become more resilient, efficient, and profitable with regenerative agriculture.
AEA works directly with growers to apply its unique line of liquid mineral crop nutrition products and biological inoculants. Informed by cutting-edge plant and soil data-gathering techniques, AEA’s science-based programs empower farm operations to meet the crop quality markers that matter the most.
AEA has created real and lasting change on millions of acres with its products and data-driven services by working hand-in-hand with growers to produce healthier soil, stronger crops, and higher profits.
Beyond working on the ground with growers, AEA leads in regenerative agriculture media and education, producing and distributing the popular and highly-regarded Regenerative Agriculture Podcast, inspiring webinars, and other educational content that serve as go-to resources for growers worldwide.
Learn more about AEA’s regenerative programs and products: https://www.advancingecoag.com
Podcast Transcript
0:00 – 0:01
Hi friends, this is John.
0:01 – 0:02
Welcome to the Region of
0:02 – 0:04
Agriculture podcast, where we
0:04 – 0:04
have all kinds of fun
0:04 – 0:06
conversations related to growing
0:06 – 0:07
things,
0:07 – 0:08
growing healthy things, growing
0:08 – 0:10
healthy people, growing healthy
0:10 – 0:10
soil,
0:11 – 0:12
growing healthy plants.
0:13 – 0:15
I'm delighted today to be joined
0:15 – 0:17
by Bree from Blossom and Branch,
0:17 – 0:19
who I encourage you to check out
0:19 – 0:22
on YouTube and Instagram for all
0:22 – 0:23
the awesome work that she's
0:23 – 0:23
doing,
0:24 – 0:27
both scaling up and scaling down
0:27 – 0:28
these
0:28 – 0:30
concepts and ideas around
0:30 – 0:32
growing healthier soil and
0:32 – 0:32
plants and people.
0:33 – 0:34
Bree, thank you so much for
0:34 – 0:35
joining me for a day and for
0:35 – 0:36
being willing to have this
0:36 – 0:37
conversation.
0:37 – 0:39
Give us some context for the
0:39 – 0:41
scope of all the fun you have.
0:42 – 0:43
Yeah, thanks for having me,
0:43 – 0:44
John. I've been a fan of the
0:44 – 0:45
podcast for many years.
0:45 – 0:47
It's informed a lot of what I
0:47 – 0:47
do, actually.
0:48 – 0:50
So yeah, I've got two farms.
0:50 – 0:52
So one is what we'd probably
0:52 – 0:54
consider a micro farm.
0:54 – 0:57
It's two acres in Denver, just
0:57 – 0:58
outside of Denver, Colorado.
0:58 – 1:00
And that is a flower farm.
1:00 – 1:01
So that's the reason why it's
1:01 – 1:02
small.
1:02 – 1:03
And flowers are cultivated,
1:04 – 1:05
grown, harvested,
1:05 – 1:07
pretty much primarily all by
1:07 – 1:07
hand.
1:08 – 1:10
And so scaling that up much
1:10 – 1:11
beyond two acres with one person
1:11 – 1:12
is difficult.
1:13 – 1:14
Then we also have in Minnesota,
1:15 – 1:18
we have 180 acres in corn and
1:18 – 1:20
soybeans. And that is a almost a
1:20 – 1:21
century farm in our family.
1:21 – 1:24
So just two years to go and
1:24 – 1:26
pretty conventionally farmed.
1:26 – 1:28
We've started taking chunks of
1:28 – 1:30
that and converting it over to
1:30 – 1:31
regenerative. So
1:32 – 1:34
adding a little bit each year as
1:34 – 1:34
we kind of learn more about
1:34 – 1:35
these processes.
1:36 – 1:37
So it's been really interesting
1:37 – 1:39
adjusting and scaling things
1:39 – 1:41
both up and down and seeing what
1:41 – 1:42
works in different climates and
1:42 – 1:44
lots of different fun
1:44 – 1:44
experiences.
1:46 – 1:49
And then you also do something
1:49 – 1:50
that I think there are a number
1:50 – 1:52
of there are a number of farmers
1:52 – 1:54
who do this well, but many more
1:54 – 1:56
who don't even attempt it at
1:56 – 1:57
all. You talk to people, you
1:57 – 1:58
talk to lots of people.
1:58 – 2:00
So tell us a bit about that.
2:00 – 2:01
Yes. Yeah.
2:01 – 2:02
Just, you were just talking
2:02 – 2:03
about the conference circuit and
2:03 – 2:05
I just got home from that as
2:05 – 2:06
well.
2:06 – 2:08
Lots of this, that's kind of how
2:08 – 2:09
I started. I never started out
2:09 – 2:11
being like, I wanted to teach
2:11 – 2:13
people how to do this.
2:13 – 2:14
It really became,
2:14 – 2:17
I was learning how to do all
2:17 – 2:18
these regenerative practices.
2:18 – 2:20
I was scaling them down to a
2:20 – 2:22
scale where I felt I could do it
2:22 – 2:24
on my market farm and
2:25 – 2:26
In doing that, I was showing it.
2:27 – 2:28
It's just part of social media
2:28 – 2:29
and being an entrepreneur now.
2:30 – 2:31
I was showing it, and I got a
2:31 – 2:32
lot of questions.
2:32 – 2:33
How do you do this?
2:33 – 2:34
How can I do this?
2:35 – 2:36
Tell me more about this.
2:36 – 2:37
Lots of interest.
2:37 – 2:38
And so I just started to tell
2:38 – 2:40
people what I was doing and
2:40 – 2:41
teach them along the way the
2:41 – 2:43
things that I failed at, the
2:43 – 2:44
things I succeeded at.
2:44 – 2:45
And in that,
2:46 – 2:48
I gained quite a significant
2:48 – 2:49
audience of people who were
2:49 – 2:50
interested in very similar
2:50 – 2:51
things.
2:52 – 2:54
Just from there, I do have a
2:54 – 2:56
background in journalism.
2:56 – 2:57
I have a background in
2:57 – 2:58
education.
2:58 – 2:59
I have a master's in marketing
2:59 – 3:00
actually in business.
3:00 – 3:03
And so I knew that maintaining
3:03 – 3:04
that...
3:04 – 3:05
I kind of wish you wouldn't have
3:05 – 3:06
said all of those things because
3:06 – 3:07
now everybody's going to think
3:07 – 3:09
that it's out of reach for them.
3:09 – 3:10
It is out of reach.
3:10 – 3:11
Well, and what's funny is I
3:11 – 3:13
don't even feel like I use it.
3:13 – 3:15
I got my MBA because I thought I
3:15 – 3:16
was actually going to work in
3:16 – 3:18
the corporate world and then I
3:18 – 3:18
went into farming.
3:20 – 3:22
Marketing is actually not
3:22 – 3:23
I think really what farmers need
3:23 – 3:25
to be doing is truly
3:26 – 3:28
more branding and authenticity.
3:28 – 3:29
Marketing is really a lot of
3:29 – 3:32
numbers and data analysis and
3:32 – 3:33
who's my target market and all
3:33 – 3:34
of this stuff, which I really
3:34 – 3:35
honestly don't do.
3:35 – 3:37
Don't tell my teachers from
3:37 – 3:38
business school that.
3:38 – 3:40
But what I have found is really
3:40 – 3:42
important. And the major thing
3:42 – 3:43
that I did learn in school was
3:43 – 3:45
how important authenticity is.
3:46 – 3:47
Because once you lose that,
3:48 – 3:49
once you lose
3:49 – 3:52
trust with your customer, once
3:52 – 3:53
you lose
3:53 – 3:55
the true voice of your soul.
3:56 – 3:56
it really
3:57 – 3:59
cheapens what you're doing.
3:59 – 4:00
It really,
4:01 – 4:02
it thins it out.
4:03 – 4:04
And so what I've found, you
4:04 – 4:06
know, in growing an audience,
4:06 – 4:07
I'm almost, I think across
4:07 – 4:09
platforms, I'm at almost 1 .5
4:09 – 4:11
million now, but I get asked all
4:11 – 4:11
the time, like,
4:12 – 4:13
will you promote this product?
4:13 – 4:14
Will you sell this?
4:14 – 4:16
You know, daily, I get probably
4:16 – 4:17
10 or 15 emails,
4:17 – 4:19
right? Turn down $50 ,000 a
4:19 – 4:20
product offering last year.
4:20 – 4:22
And I do that because
4:23 – 4:24
to me that
4:24 – 4:26
if I start hawking all this
4:26 – 4:27
stuff that you really don't
4:27 – 4:29
need, you know, that you really
4:29 – 4:29
don't need to grow
4:29 – 4:31
regeneratively, it really
4:31 – 4:32
cheapens the message.
4:34 – 4:35
And that resonates with people.
4:35 – 4:37
So people do know they can trust
4:37 – 4:38
me. You know, when I say like
4:38 – 4:39
this worked, this doesn't work.
4:40 – 4:42
They know that I'm not doing it
4:42 – 4:43
just because I'm getting paid to
4:43 – 4:44
do it.
4:45 – 4:46
What's what is
4:47 – 4:48
this almost sounds like an
4:48 – 4:50
elementary question, but I think
4:50 – 4:51
it's important one for us to
4:51 – 4:51
talk about.
4:51 – 4:53
What is authenticity exactly?
4:55 – 4:56
I mean, there's different
4:56 – 4:57
answers to that.
4:57 – 4:58
But one of the one of the things
4:58 – 4:59
that occurs to me is
5:01 – 5:02
the kind
5:04 – 5:05
of the I don't know quite the
5:05 – 5:06
right word for this, but the
5:06 – 5:08
social media presence that most
5:08 – 5:10
people present is curated.
5:11 – 5:13
It's curated to be the best
5:13 – 5:14
versions of themselves.
5:15 – 5:16
And there
5:16 – 5:18
is an aspect of authenticity
5:18 – 5:20
that I believe to be authentic
5:20 – 5:22
also requires a degree of
5:22 – 5:23
vulnerability.
5:23 – 5:25
There's sometimes you can show
5:25 – 5:26
the
5:26 – 5:27
comedy of when things don't go
5:27 – 5:28
well.
5:29 – 5:31
But sometimes learning from
5:31 – 5:32
experience is painful
5:33 – 5:35
and communicating that
5:35 – 5:37
authentically and just putting
5:37 – 5:39
it out there is like, yeah, this
5:39 – 5:40
really hurt
5:40 – 5:42
hurt financially.
5:42 – 5:43
It hurt.
5:42 – 5:43
Otherwise
5:43 – 5:45
is something that
5:46 – 5:48
is, I think, part of perhaps, at
5:48 – 5:49
least for me, one of the most
5:49 – 5:50
difficult things.
5:50 – 5:51
about being authentic, but also
5:51 – 5:52
one of the most necessary.
5:54 – 5:55
I totally agree with you.
5:55 – 5:56
I think authenticity has a lot
5:56 – 5:58
to do with, you know, evolution
5:58 – 5:59
as well of yourself and
5:59 – 6:01
evolution of the practices and
6:01 – 6:02
being open and transparent about
6:02 – 6:04
that. I personally struggle
6:04 – 6:05
quite a bit with.
6:06 – 6:07
with that piece of it as well.
6:07 – 6:09
I mean, I do show failures.
6:09 – 6:10
I mean, as you said, I kind of
6:10 – 6:12
tried to do it in a comedic way.
6:12 – 6:13
Like,
6:12 – 6:13
look what actually happens when
6:13 – 6:15
I'm trying to graze my sheep on
6:15 – 6:16
the market.
6:17 – 6:18
It's a comedy of all these
6:18 – 6:19
things that go wrong, right?
6:20 – 6:23
But it is difficult because
6:23 – 6:25
social media also tends
6:25 – 6:26
to reward
6:27 – 6:29
is success. And it tends to
6:29 – 6:32
reward these very curated type
6:32 – 6:33
of things. I think that's
6:33 – 6:34
changing a little bit.
6:34 – 6:35
I do think that's changing.
6:35 – 6:36
I think people are leaning more
6:36 – 6:39
into the reality with AI
6:39 – 6:40
generation and all this stuff.
6:40 – 6:41
I think now people are like, OK,
6:41 – 6:44
now show me real humans and real
6:44 – 6:45
failures.
6:45 – 6:46
But it's a struggle for sure.
6:46 – 6:48
And of course, anyone getting
6:48 – 6:49
into regenerative
6:50 – 6:51
practices is going to experience
6:51 – 6:53
those failures because it's so
6:53 – 6:55
foreign to a lot of us who've
6:55 – 6:56
been doing this for any period
6:56 – 6:57
of time.
6:59 – 7:01
there's no real guidebook to,
7:01 – 7:03
you know, what to do in X, Y, Z
7:03 – 7:05
situation. So for sure, we've
7:05 – 7:05
had our share of failures.
7:05 – 7:07
And sometimes those things end
7:07 – 7:07
up well,
7:07 – 7:09
you know, and we share that too.
7:09 – 7:10
But like, yeah, we weren't able
7:10 – 7:11
to get our cover crop in when we
7:11 – 7:13
wanted to last year in our corn
7:13 – 7:14
that we were interplanting.
7:14 – 7:16
And therefore, we had to drone
7:16 – 7:17
it in and we drone it in a month
7:17 – 7:19
later than we should have.
7:19 – 7:21
And, but that ended up actually
7:21 – 7:22
working really, really well.
7:22 – 7:24
It wasn't our plan, you know,
7:24 – 7:25
but I do try to be authentic.
7:25 – 7:27
But for sure, I think it's
7:27 – 7:27
something that
7:28 – 7:29
all of us could work on because
7:29 – 7:31
it helps the regenerative
7:31 – 7:32
movement, I think when we are
7:32 – 7:33
honest about it.
7:34 – 7:38
When you mentioned the
7:38 – 7:40
appeal or kind of the framing
7:40 – 7:42
that is desired by short form
7:43 – 7:45
social media content to really
7:45 – 7:45
grab attention.
7:45 – 7:47
And in this world of where we're
7:47 – 7:50
now seeing this rapid just
7:50 – 7:52
explosion of AI -generated
7:52 – 7:53
content, are you seeing more of
7:53 – 7:55
a shift to people engaging more
7:55 – 7:57
deeply with long -form content?
7:57 – 7:58
And I just,
7:59 – 8:00
for myself,
8:00 – 8:03
the way my life is,
8:03 – 8:05
I don't have a lot of space in
8:05 – 8:06
my life for listening.
8:06 – 8:08
So I abandoned listening years
8:08 – 8:09
ago.
8:09 – 8:11
already. If people send me
8:11 – 8:13
podcasts or YouTube clips,
8:13 – 8:14
I'll get them transcribed.
8:14 – 8:15
I'll read the transcript because
8:15 – 8:16
I can read the content.
8:17 – 8:18
If it's truly considered high
8:18 – 8:19
value content,
8:20 – 8:22
I can read it in a quarter of
8:22 – 8:23
the time that it takes to listen
8:23 – 8:23
or probably less.
8:25 – 8:27
And so that kind of by default,
8:27 – 8:30
the high value content that
8:30 – 8:31
people share and really highly
8:31 – 8:33
endorse is long form and not
8:33 – 8:34
short form for the most part.
8:35 – 8:36
I'm exactly on the same page
8:36 – 8:38
with you. I don't have time, you
8:38 – 8:39
know, and I feel bad because I
8:39 – 8:41
follow fellow creators and
8:41 – 8:42
garden and farmers on YouTube,
8:43 – 8:44
but I never watch the content
8:44 – 8:45
because it's the same.
8:45 – 8:47
I literally just don't have time
8:47 – 8:48
to sit here and watch half an
8:48 – 8:49
hour of a movie or video.
8:50 – 8:51
But I know a lot of people do.
8:51 – 8:52
I mean, clearly there's people
8:52 – 8:53
who are watching them and do
8:53 – 8:55
learn that way or they want to
8:55 – 8:57
see these things in action.
8:57 – 8:58
I mean, maybe for people who are
8:58 – 9:00
more experienced, like, OK, I
9:00 – 9:01
know what it looks like to plant
9:01 – 9:02
a cover crop or I know what it
9:02 – 9:03
looks like to
9:04 – 9:05
harvest corn, you know, but for
9:05 – 9:06
a lot of people, they've never
9:06 – 9:07
seen that. And so that can be
9:07 – 9:08
helpful for a lot of people.
9:08 – 9:09
But I'm the same.
9:09 – 9:11
I give me a give me something.
9:11 – 9:12
I'll do a podcast because I can
9:12 – 9:14
listen to it while I'm while I'm
9:14 – 9:15
doing something else.
9:16 – 9:18
And and that's often the place
9:18 – 9:19
where I have phone calls.
9:19 – 9:20
My life seems to be filled with
9:20 – 9:21
phone calls instead of listening
9:21 – 9:22
to conversations.
9:24 – 9:26
But I like. So you responded to
9:26 – 9:28
that question in kind of as a
9:28 – 9:30
personal user. But do you have
9:30 – 9:31
any observations also from your
9:31 – 9:33
audience? How have how have your
9:33 – 9:34
audience dynamics shifted?
9:37 – 9:39
Um, you know, I would say that
9:39 – 9:41
YouTube mean i'm just trying to
9:41 – 9:42
put more information out on
9:42 – 9:43
youtube because
9:44 – 9:45
in terms of long form the
9:45 – 9:48
information i can give in a half
9:48 – 9:49
an hour video versus a 60 second
9:49 – 9:51
reel with a however many
9:51 – 9:53
character it's description it's
9:53 – 9:54
just never enough to really
9:54 – 9:57
explain like it doesn't explain
9:58 – 9:59
what a rhizosphere is, you know,
9:59 – 10:01
it doesn't explain root
10:01 – 10:02
exudates, you can't get into
10:02 – 10:04
that really in 60 seconds in any
10:04 – 10:05
meaningful way.
10:06 – 10:07
So I have seen, you know, the
10:07 – 10:09
people who are more serious and
10:09 – 10:10
want to learn more about the
10:10 – 10:11
regenerative practices
10:11 – 10:13
themselves tend to migrate over
10:13 – 10:15
to YouTube. So that's really,
10:15 – 10:16
I feel like that audience is
10:16 – 10:18
more of like the soil health,
10:18 – 10:20
wanting to see the farming piece
10:20 – 10:22
of it. And then
10:22 – 10:23
Short form is more like, hey,
10:23 – 10:24
look at these pretty flowers.
10:25 – 10:26
OK, here's how we grew them.
10:26 – 10:26
If you want to learn about that,
10:27 – 10:27
head over there.
10:27 – 10:30
So I do try to connect them so
10:31 – 10:32
that it does drive people who do
10:32 – 10:33
want to learn more somewhere
10:33 – 10:34
meaningful.
10:35 – 10:36
But I don't always do that
10:36 – 10:37
either. Sometimes I'm like, OK,
10:37 – 10:38
here's a 10 second clip of
10:38 – 10:41
something I don't have time to
10:41 – 10:42
look
10:42 – 10:43
at. Because it is very time
10:43 – 10:45
consuming. And that's been the
10:45 – 10:45
challenges.
10:46 – 10:47
A lot of content creators just
10:47 – 10:48
create content.
10:48 – 10:49
That's all they do.
10:50 – 10:52
I'm farming two farms.
10:52 – 10:53
I have two young kids.
10:54 – 10:56
I just wrote the book.
10:58 – 10:59
And I do content creation.
11:00 – 11:01
So you
11:02 – 11:03
get what you get, is what I tell
11:03 – 11:03
people.
11:03 – 11:05
On YouTube, they're like, can
11:05 – 11:06
you adjust the volume?
11:06 – 11:07
I'm like, no, I literally don't
11:07 – 11:09
have time. I can turn up your
11:09 – 11:09
volume on your thing.
11:11 – 11:13
This is another aspect of
11:13 – 11:14
authenticity.
11:15 – 11:16
One of the things that I've
11:16 – 11:18
noticed on different social
11:18 – 11:21
channels is that the reality is
11:21 – 11:23
we have these incredible devices
11:23 – 11:24
today that we call smartphones
11:24 – 11:25
that are really much more than
11:25 – 11:26
just a phone.
11:27 – 11:28
And
11:28 – 11:30
anyone can walk out into a field
11:31 – 11:33
and record a short video clip
11:33 – 11:34
about what they're seeing and
11:34 – 11:35
what's happening and what's
11:35 – 11:35
going on.
11:35 – 11:36
on.
11:35 – 11:37
And that is, it's been
11:37 – 11:38
intriguing to me that that
11:38 – 11:40
content that is unscripted,
11:40 – 11:41
live,
11:41 – 11:42
real, this is what's happening,
11:42 – 11:43
this is what's going on, that is
11:43 – 11:45
often what produces the most
11:45 – 11:47
engagement, the most
11:47 – 11:47
conversations,
11:48 – 11:50
and from what I can tell, seems
11:50 – 11:51
to produce the greatest change,
11:53 – 11:54
has the greatest impact.
11:54 – 11:56
Yeah, especially now, as you
11:56 – 11:57
mentioned with AI, you know,
11:57 – 12:00
taking over this space is that
12:00 – 12:01
now people are questioning
12:01 – 12:02
everything they see.
12:02 – 12:04
So, yeah, the more real it is,
12:04 – 12:05
the more like, OK, here's
12:05 – 12:07
someone doing this or someone in
12:07 – 12:08
the field. I think they just
12:08 – 12:10
human on a human connection.
12:10 – 12:11
That's what we're looking for.
12:11 – 12:12
So I am seeing more of that.
12:13 – 12:14
I think I think it's an
12:14 – 12:16
opportunity where a lot of
12:16 – 12:18
farmers could be sharing more
12:18 – 12:20
about the realities of what they
12:20 – 12:21
are seeing, because
12:21 – 12:23
You know, I talked to farmers
12:23 – 12:24
all day. I talked to, yeah, I
12:24 – 12:25
talked to my audience, but I
12:25 – 12:27
talked to farmers too, because I
12:27 – 12:29
want to know, I really want to
12:29 – 12:30
understand what
12:31 – 12:32
they're going through and then
12:32 – 12:34
try to transcript that so that
12:34 – 12:35
people can understand it.
12:35 – 12:36
Because a lot of what I hear on
12:36 – 12:39
my end from like home gardeners,
12:39 – 12:40
consumers, is they're like,
12:40 – 12:41
well, why aren't more farmers
12:41 – 12:42
doing this? Why aren't more
12:42 – 12:44
farmers growing regeneratively?
12:44 – 12:45
Why don't we just start cover
12:45 – 12:46
cropping? Why don't they just
12:46 – 12:47
start?
12:47 – 12:49
And it's like trying to explain
12:49 – 12:51
all the intricacies of like,
12:51 – 12:52
well, maybe they don't have the
12:52 – 12:53
equipment, the right planter.
12:53 – 12:55
It's not the same format.
12:55 – 12:56
They have to switch stuff out,
12:56 – 12:57
the timing,
12:57 – 12:59
the, the, the, whatever the
12:59 – 13:00
growing climate is that they're
13:00 – 13:01
in, how are they going to
13:01 – 13:02
terminate it? You know, there's
13:02 – 13:05
so many and it's a pennies game,
13:05 – 13:06
right? For most of them on
13:06 – 13:07
acreage right now.
13:07 – 13:09
And so there's so many
13:09 – 13:10
intricacies, but people just
13:10 – 13:11
hear regenerative and they're
13:11 – 13:12
like, well,
13:12 – 13:15
why isn't everyone doing it?
13:15 – 13:16
Exactly.
13:15 – 13:17
So it's really been, it's been
13:17 – 13:18
really helpful and interesting,
13:19 – 13:20
I think, just to kind of have
13:20 – 13:21
those conversations.
13:21 – 13:23
But I found that when I do talk
13:23 – 13:24
to farmers about it, they don't
13:24 – 13:26
want me to really necessarily
13:26 – 13:27
share that.
13:27 – 13:29
So that's been a struggle
13:29 – 13:30
because...
13:30 – 13:31
you think that is?
13:32 – 13:34
I think that right now there is
13:34 – 13:37
a fear and it's legitimate
13:37 – 13:39
because for a long time, I think
13:39 – 13:40
farmers have been blamed for a
13:40 – 13:41
lot of things and they're kind
13:41 – 13:43
of page and hold right now into
13:43 – 13:45
this system that they're
13:46 – 13:46
working within.
13:47 – 13:49
A lot of us are trying to break
13:49 – 13:50
out, but it's not always doable.
13:51 – 13:53
And so I think they are a little
13:53 – 13:55
gun shy because
13:55 – 13:57
they are used to being blamed
13:57 – 13:58
for a lot.
13:58 – 14:01
And so I think they're scared to
14:01 – 14:03
really speak the truth about
14:03 – 14:05
what's happening because they've
14:05 – 14:07
heard so many times like climate
14:08 – 14:09
change is because of farming,
14:10 – 14:11
tilling is bad, everyone's
14:11 – 14:12
tilling. Not that those things
14:12 – 14:13
are not true,
14:14 – 14:15
but there's a lack of
14:15 – 14:16
understanding from the general
14:16 – 14:18
public about what farmers truly
14:18 – 14:19
experience on a day -to -day
14:19 – 14:20
basis.
14:22 – 14:24
So I love trying to bridge those
14:24 – 14:25
things together.
14:26 – 14:28
I struggle with farmers not
14:28 – 14:31
wanting to necessarily be on
14:31 – 14:33
camera or, you know, speak about
14:33 – 14:34
these things, but I mean,
14:34 – 14:35
that's, that's not, it's up to
14:35 – 14:36
them.
14:36 – 14:38
There are ones who are, it's
14:38 – 14:39
just,
14:39 – 14:40
they're harder to find.
14:41 – 14:42
When I, when I look
14:43 – 14:44
back over the
14:45 – 14:47
course of recent history, the
14:47 – 14:49
last 60, 70, 80 years,
14:50 – 14:52
it is entirely, it is accurate
14:52 – 14:53
to say
14:55 – 14:56
It's accurate to say that
14:56 – 14:59
farmers have been through policy
14:59 – 15:00
directives and market forces,
15:00 – 15:01
they have been guided into a
15:01 – 15:04
certain position that is less
15:04 – 15:06
than optimal for themselves and
15:06 – 15:07
for the people who are
15:07 – 15:08
ultimately consuming food that
15:08 – 15:09
they are producing.
15:11 – 15:13
It's also true that
15:14 – 15:15
there is some element of
15:15 – 15:16
personal responsibility in that
15:17 – 15:18
and it's also true
15:19 – 15:20
that perhaps to
15:21 – 15:21
a large degree,
15:22 – 15:23
the public discourse and the
15:23 – 15:24
fear that farmers feel about
15:24 – 15:25
being
15:25 – 15:27
about the struggles that they
15:27 – 15:28
face is
15:28 – 15:30
because their
15:30 – 15:31
voice hasn't been heard.
15:33 – 15:35
It's just intriguing to me.
15:37 – 15:38
I've been in D .C.
15:38 – 15:40
on several occasions recently,
15:40 – 15:42
and it's intriguing to me how
15:42 – 15:43
the people,
15:43 – 15:44
there's a small group of people,
15:45 – 15:46
relatively speaking, who is in
15:46 – 15:47
charge of putting policy
15:47 – 15:48
together, is in charge of making
15:48 – 15:49
decisions,
15:51 – 15:53
in the famous words of
15:53 – 15:54
Eisenhower, whose plow is a
15:54 – 15:57
pencil and whose field is,
15:58 – 15:59
they're a thousand miles from
15:59 – 16:00
the closest cornfield.
16:02 – 16:03
And it's because, and
16:03 – 16:04
particularly now,
16:04 – 16:07
I see the era of AI compounding
16:07 – 16:07
this even more,
16:10 – 16:11
the most dangerous perspective
16:11 – 16:12
is
16:13 – 16:14
not
16:14 – 16:15
not knowing,
16:16 – 16:17
it's being certain that you know
16:18 – 16:19
and being mistaken.
16:21 – 16:22
And that
16:23 – 16:24
is
16:24 – 16:26
a common perspective, I think,
16:26 – 16:28
in people who they start
16:28 – 16:30
learning about the human health
16:30 – 16:31
challenges of certain
16:31 – 16:32
pesticides,
16:32 – 16:34
and they go deep down this
16:34 – 16:35
rabbit hole, and they become
16:35 – 16:37
obsessed about, well, why are we
16:37 – 16:38
using these things on our food
16:38 – 16:39
supply?
16:39 – 16:40
And they start comparing and
16:40 – 16:41
contrasting with Europe, and
16:41 – 16:42
they start looking at what's
16:42 – 16:43
happening around the globe.
16:44 – 16:45
And
16:45 – 16:48
they develop these very strongly
16:48 – 16:50
entrenched and very passionate
16:50 – 16:52
opinions and perspectives,
16:53 – 16:54
and they've never talked
16:55 – 16:57
or they very seldom talk to the
16:57 – 16:58
people who are actually doing
16:58 – 16:59
it.
16:58 – 16:59
And
16:59 – 17:00
part of it is because those
17:00 – 17:02
voices of fear that the growers
17:02 – 17:03
have of putting themselves out
17:03 – 17:06
there today has also been true
17:06 – 17:08
historically. And so therefore,
17:08 – 17:09
their perspective,
17:10 – 17:11
there is very little sympathy
17:11 – 17:12
for their perspective because
17:12 – 17:13
their perspective isn't known.
17:15 – 17:16
I totally agree with you.
17:16 – 17:17
I agree with you on everything
17:17 – 17:19
that you said. I mean, there's
17:19 – 17:20
so many different components
17:20 – 17:23
pieces of it, that there is, as
17:23 – 17:25
you mentioned, a level of also
17:25 – 17:27
personal responsibility on the
17:27 – 17:28
policy side.
17:30 – 17:31
There's also the fact that, you
17:31 – 17:33
know, I know that a lot of them,
17:33 – 17:34
whether they'll say it or not,
17:35 – 17:36
had different expectations and
17:36 – 17:37
what's actually happening.
17:38 – 17:41
And sometimes does that come
17:41 – 17:41
down to,
17:42 – 17:43
you know, potentially,
17:45 – 17:45
you know, You know, I hate to
17:45 – 17:47
say it's not an education issue,
17:47 – 17:48
but it's a it's a cultural
17:48 – 17:50
issue. I think and
17:51 – 17:52
it's it is it's ingrained.
17:52 – 17:54
And until we start having these
17:54 – 17:55
conversations and
17:56 – 17:57
and social media can be so toxic
17:57 – 17:58
for this, right?
17:58 – 18:00
Some platforms are worse than
18:00 – 18:02
others where, you know, you show
18:02 – 18:04
anything using any kind of
18:04 – 18:05
herbicide
18:05 – 18:07
and it's like.
18:08 – 18:09
You know,
18:09 – 18:11
without a context of like, OK,
18:11 – 18:12
well, maybe here's the half
18:12 – 18:13
-life, maybe here was the
18:13 – 18:15
alternative to using this.
18:15 – 18:16
This is something you talk about
18:16 – 18:17
in the book, even just for like
18:17 – 18:19
home home growers is the problem
18:19 – 18:20
of noxious and invasive weeds,
18:21 – 18:22
you know, noxious and invasive
18:22 – 18:23
like buckthorn, for example,
18:24 – 18:26
or multiflora rose or any of
18:26 – 18:28
those you literally cannot get
18:28 – 18:30
rid of unless you do a cut and a
18:30 – 18:30
brush technique.
18:31 – 18:32
You know, you're not spraying it
18:32 – 18:34
all over everything, but you cut
18:34 – 18:35
the stump, you brush it on, you
18:35 – 18:35
know, that works on a home
18:35 – 18:37
scale. But even showing even
18:37 – 18:38
showing that,
18:38 – 18:39
and explaining like,
18:40 – 18:41
we're not contaminating soil
18:41 – 18:42
profile, this is very targeted.
18:43 – 18:44
This is the only way to get rid
18:44 – 18:45
of this noxious invasive and
18:45 – 18:48
there's still so much anger and
18:48 – 18:50
pushback because of because of
18:50 – 18:51
a,
18:52 – 18:53
you know, a dogma that people
18:53 – 18:54
get into of like,
18:54 – 18:55
this is always wrong, but it's
18:55 – 18:57
right and regenerative.
18:57 – 18:58
We're always thinking about
18:58 – 19:00
context and contextual uses.
19:00 – 19:02
And if an herbicide allows
19:02 – 19:03
someone to start cover cropping,
19:04 – 19:05
you know, we're always waiting
19:05 – 19:07
that like, is that better
19:07 – 19:09
than not cover cropping at all?
19:10 – 19:12
Yeah, so in those instances
19:12 – 19:14
where you've received this
19:14 – 19:15
story.
19:15 – 19:17
negative feedback, how have you
19:17 – 19:18
managed that? How have you
19:18 – 19:19
responded to it?
19:20 – 19:23
Usually I have to balance for my
19:23 – 19:24
mental health, how
19:25 – 19:26
much I look at certain
19:26 – 19:28
platforms. I mean, honestly,
19:28 – 19:29
like Facebook, for example,
19:29 – 19:31
I usually don't look at it at
19:31 – 19:33
all because on there,
19:33 – 19:35
it just is a very I don't know
19:35 – 19:37
what it is, but it's just very
19:37 – 19:39
aggressive and people are nasty.
19:39 – 19:40
I mean, it's not just like, oh,
19:40 – 19:42
I disagree with your practices.
19:42 – 19:44
It's like you're a terrible
19:44 – 19:46
person and I want you to die.
19:46 – 19:47
You know, I mean, like really
19:47 – 19:48
horrible stuff.
19:49 – 19:50
And so, you know, with Instagram
19:50 – 19:52
and even on YouTube, I'll get
19:52 – 19:53
into this and be like, OK,
19:53 – 19:54
here's the science.
19:54 – 19:55
Here's like why.
19:56 – 19:57
Here's what invasive
19:57 – 19:59
plants do to the rhizosphere.
19:59 – 20:01
Here's why it's important that
20:01 – 20:02
we manage certain things
20:02 – 20:04
ecologically as humans.
20:05 – 20:06
And that conversation can happen
20:06 – 20:07
more naturally.
20:07 – 20:08
I do try to back it up
20:08 – 20:09
scientifically,
20:09 – 20:11
you know, and use people with
20:11 – 20:13
more experience than I do to
20:13 – 20:14
instate those things.
20:14 – 20:16
But yeah, sometimes you just
20:16 – 20:17
have to admit that and let it go
20:17 – 20:18
that there are going to be
20:18 – 20:19
people who are going to
20:19 – 20:20
disagree.
20:21 – 20:22
I prefer that it happens
20:22 – 20:25
civilly, but that's...
20:25 – 20:26
Yeah.
20:26 – 20:28
We've become a society where
20:28 – 20:30
civil disagreement has become
20:30 – 20:31
increasingly challenged, it
20:31 – 20:31
appears.
20:32 – 20:32
Yes.
20:33 – 20:34
So I've
20:34 – 20:35
really enjoyed this
20:35 – 20:36
conversation, but let's talk
20:36 – 20:37
about growing plants.
20:38 – 20:40
Tell us a bit more about your
20:40 – 20:41
flower operation.
20:41 – 20:42
You said that it's two acres in
20:42 – 20:43
size.
20:43 – 20:44
Tell us a bit more about the
20:44 – 20:45
environment that you're growing
20:45 – 20:46
in,
20:46 – 20:47
cultural management practices,
20:47 – 20:48
and how it's evolved.
20:48 – 20:49
How did it come into being?
20:49 – 20:51
Yeah, so we're high altitude.
20:51 – 20:54
So Denver, we're 5280, basically
20:54 – 20:55
a mile high.
20:56 – 20:57
So that comes with challenges.
20:57 – 20:58
We have a lot of hail.
20:58 – 21:00
And we talked about water
21:00 – 21:01
restrictions that were pretty
21:01 – 21:03
low on snowpack for a couple
21:03 – 21:03
years running now.
21:04 – 21:05
And so hot.
21:06 – 21:07
We're forecasting to get 91
21:07 – 21:08
degrees on Friday, which is
21:08 – 21:09
absolutely wild.
21:11 – 21:12
swings always are crazy.
21:14 – 21:15
a 60 degree. I remember a couple
21:15 – 21:17
years ago it was September.
21:17 – 21:18
We usually don't get our first
21:18 – 21:19
frost till October.
21:20 – 21:21
It was September.
21:21 – 21:22
It was 90 degrees during the day
21:22 – 21:22
and the next day it was going to
21:22 – 21:23
snow.
21:23 – 21:26
And we still had dahlias in the
21:26 – 21:27
field. We still had weddings.
21:27 – 21:28
We still had things to do for
21:28 – 21:30
another month. So we were out
21:30 – 21:32
covering all of the plants and
21:32 – 21:33
it was 90 degrees.
21:33 – 21:34
And the next day it snowed.
21:34 – 21:36
So we get a lot of extremes.
21:36 – 21:38
And then in Minnesota, obviously
21:38 – 21:39
a little bit more temperate,
21:39 – 21:41
still a fair amount of extremes
21:41 – 21:42
out there and increasingly so.
21:43 – 21:44
But different sets of challenges
21:44 – 21:47
like excess moisture is, you
21:47 – 21:48
know, tends to be a problem out
21:48 – 21:50
there or runoff or erosion
21:50 – 21:51
because that's in the middle of
21:51 – 21:54
farm country and dealing with
21:54 – 21:56
herbicide drift and that kind of
21:56 – 21:58
stuff. And then here locally,
21:58 – 21:59
we're urban, so we don't really
21:59 – 22:00
deal with that kind of thing.
22:01 – 22:02
We deal more with people using
22:02 – 22:04
rat poison. You know, it's very
22:04 – 22:05
different sets of challenges.
22:07 – 22:08
And in the
22:08 – 22:10
how...
22:10 – 22:13
How have your growing practices
22:13 – 22:14
evolved over time?
22:14 – 22:15
Where did you start and where
22:15 – 22:16
are you today?
22:17 – 22:18
Very interesting.
22:18 – 22:20
If you look back at my Instagram
22:20 – 22:21
far enough,
22:22 – 22:23
you will see our fields covered
22:23 – 22:27
in plastic mulch and
22:27 – 22:29
plastic hail netting and plastic
22:29 – 22:32
hoops and plastic, you know,
22:32 – 22:33
frost fabric.
22:34 – 22:35
That's how I grew vegetables 20
22:35 – 22:36
years ago.
22:36 – 22:37
It's very familiar.
22:37 – 22:39
Yes. You know the picture,
22:39 – 22:41
right? Um, and that's just
22:41 – 22:42
because that's how I, you know,
22:42 – 22:43
when I started growing flowers,
22:43 – 22:44
I had never grown flowers
22:44 – 22:45
before. That was my first time
22:45 – 22:46
doing it on that scale.
22:46 – 22:47
And so that's what most of the
22:47 – 22:48
big producers do.
22:48 – 22:49
So I did it.
22:50 – 22:52
And then as I started getting
22:52 – 22:53
more into the soil health, I
22:53 – 22:54
started listening to your
22:54 – 22:56
podcast. I started, I got a
22:56 – 22:57
microscope. I started looking at
22:57 – 22:59
my compost. You know, I really
22:59 – 23:00
got into the weeds.
23:00 – 23:01
I'm like, what's happening
23:01 – 23:03
beneath the soil.
23:03 – 23:03
Cause I just think it's
23:03 – 23:04
fascinating.
23:05 – 23:08
And then I started to see, you
23:08 – 23:09
know, I pull up the plastic at
23:09 – 23:10
the end of the season and how
23:10 – 23:11
compacted,
23:12 – 23:14
how cracked the soil was.
23:14 – 23:15
I mean, literally
23:16 – 23:16
cracking,
23:17 – 23:19
clearly no organic matter had
23:19 – 23:20
been getting down onto that soil
23:20 – 23:22
all year because it'd been
23:22 – 23:23
coated in a layer of plastic.
23:24 – 23:25
And then I started to see little
23:25 – 23:27
pieces of that plastic like in
23:27 – 23:29
birds nests and just floating
23:29 – 23:30
around on the ground.
23:30 – 23:32
And then I started thinking
23:32 – 23:35
like, maybe this isn't the way
23:35 – 23:36
that the soil is
23:37 – 23:38
going to be threaded.
23:37 – 23:39
Maybe I should be looking more
23:39 – 23:40
to nature to see what's
23:40 – 23:42
happening. And so I started
23:42 – 23:44
slowly removing, I think the
23:44 – 23:45
first year I took a third of the
23:45 – 23:46
plastic away.
23:46 – 23:48
And then the following year, I
23:48 – 23:48
removed it all.
23:50 – 23:51
People think I have like,
23:53 – 23:53
I have tons of weeds.
23:53 – 23:54
I started with tons of weeds.
23:55 – 23:55
I had bindweed.
23:55 – 23:57
I had thistle. I had hemlock.
23:57 – 23:58
I had all of those.
23:57 – 23:58
It's not like I started with
23:58 – 24:00
some pristine ground.
24:00 – 24:01
So I did have heavy weed
24:01 – 24:02
pressure.
24:03 – 24:04
I just learned how to deal with
24:04 – 24:04
it differently.
24:04 – 24:07
But that took a lot of trial and
24:07 – 24:08
error. It took, you know, how do
24:08 – 24:09
I scale this down?
24:09 – 24:10
Because I'm not cover cropping
24:10 – 24:12
with a tractor here.
24:12 – 24:14
You know, I'm doing it by hand.
24:16 – 24:18
I do permaculture beds.
24:18 – 24:19
So
24:19 – 24:20
We're not out here with huge
24:20 – 24:21
machinery.
24:21 – 24:22
We just can't. I don't have that
24:22 – 24:22
kind of space.
24:23 – 24:26
So how did you deal with the
24:26 – 24:27
weeds? What did you replace the
24:27 – 24:28
plastic with over time?
24:28 – 24:30
So a combination of things, it
24:30 – 24:31
depends on the crop, you know,
24:31 – 24:33
for more perennial plants.
24:33 – 24:34
So, you know, production peonies
24:34 – 24:36
or roses, for example, we do,
24:36 – 24:38
I do a combination of like
24:38 – 24:40
living ground covers for the
24:40 – 24:41
walkways. So native grasses like
24:41 – 24:43
blue grandma that don't take a
24:43 – 24:44
lot of water because they don't
24:44 – 24:45
want to be irrigating.
24:45 – 24:47
And then I'll also do, you know,
24:47 – 24:48
a higher carbon mulch.
24:49 – 24:50
So something like wood chips
24:50 – 24:51
that's going to break down more
24:51 – 24:52
slowly. Usually I have to top
24:52 – 24:54
that back up, you know, every
24:54 – 24:55
few years or so.
24:55 – 24:57
And then in the annual area, so
24:57 – 24:59
I've learned how to separate my
24:59 – 25:01
annuals. and perennials.
25:01 – 25:02
I love interplanting.
25:02 – 25:03
I think it's great, but I've
25:03 – 25:04
learned, I separate perennials
25:04 – 25:07
and annuals and I separate by,
25:07 – 25:09
you know, production time.
25:09 – 25:10
So are they producing in the
25:10 – 25:11
summer or are they producing in
25:11 – 25:13
the spring? Because they both
25:13 – 25:14
get treated differently, but I
25:14 – 25:15
cluster them together.
25:15 – 25:18
So I can always either have a
25:18 – 25:19
cover crop on the ground in the
25:19 – 25:21
spring, or I can have one on the
25:21 – 25:22
ground in the late summer,
25:22 – 25:24
depending on what season it is.
25:23 – 25:25
the production crop was in that
25:25 – 25:27
bed. So I do a thick cover crop,
25:27 – 25:29
I overseed it fairly heavily.
25:30 – 25:32
And I let it grow in either
25:32 – 25:33
it'll winter kill terminate, and
25:33 – 25:34
then I have the mulch in place
25:34 – 25:36
for the next year, or I'll
25:36 – 25:37
terminate it in the spring
25:37 – 25:39
manually plant into it.
25:39 – 25:41
And then I have my mulch.
25:41 – 25:42
So it saved me a couple things
25:42 – 25:43
like one is that I'm not having
25:43 – 25:45
to bring in and worry about
25:45 – 25:47
mulch right on a smaller market
25:47 – 25:48
farm scale,
25:48 – 25:51
applying mulch finding mulch for
25:51 – 25:53
two acres is challenging.
25:53 – 25:54
So growing it has been much
25:54 – 25:55
easier.
25:55 – 25:56
And then, of course, we're doing
25:56 – 25:57
wonderful things for the soil
25:57 – 25:58
profile at the same time.
25:59 – 26:00
So it's like a one -two punch.
26:01 – 26:02
I'm growing my mulch.
26:02 – 26:03
I'm adding organic matter to the
26:03 – 26:05
soil. And I can get nitrogen.
26:06 – 26:07
I can inoculate that.
26:07 – 26:09
I can get the soil
26:09 – 26:11
biome up and going.
26:12 – 26:14
So to me, it's a no -brainer.
26:14 – 26:16
But it was figuring out how to
26:16 – 26:17
implement it.
26:20 – 26:22
On that journey,
26:22 – 26:24
how many years has it been since
26:24 – 26:26
you started this, and how has
26:26 – 26:27
the soil health evolved, and how
26:27 – 26:28
has plant health evolved in that
26:28 – 26:29
time frame?
26:29 – 26:30
This is year eight,
26:32 – 26:33
and I'd say probably year six
26:33 – 26:34
since we've been kind of doing
26:34 – 26:35
these practices.
26:36 – 26:37
Gosh,
26:37 – 26:39
I can't even say how much easier
26:39 – 26:41
it has gotten to run my farm.
26:42 – 26:43
People think that cover cropping
26:43 – 26:44
is a lot of work, but I look at
26:44 – 26:45
that and I say, well, I used to
26:45 – 26:47
have to roll up this fabric
26:47 – 26:49
every year and then roll it back
26:49 – 26:50
out in the spring.
26:50 – 26:52
And then that was work, too, in
26:52 – 26:53
and of itself.
26:53 – 26:54
And I'd have to bring in mulch.
26:54 – 26:56
I'd have to fertilize.
26:56 – 26:57
There were all these other
26:57 – 26:59
things that I had to do before
26:59 – 27:00
that now actually I don't have
27:00 – 27:01
to do. And the same for things
27:01 – 27:02
like pest pressure.
27:02 – 27:03
I mean, I'm not going to sit
27:03 – 27:04
here and say like, well, I have
27:04 – 27:05
no pests. That's not true.
27:06 – 27:06
Of course, that's never going to
27:06 – 27:07
be true.
27:08 – 27:09
We have a lot of invasive pests,
27:09 – 27:10
for example, like
27:11 – 27:12
Japanese beetles.
27:14 – 27:15
Those just
27:15 – 27:16
There's nothing that's evolved
27:16 – 27:17
with our ecosystem to really
27:17 – 27:18
handle a lot of that stuff.
27:18 – 27:20
But things like the
27:20 – 27:21
grasshoppers, things like the
27:21 – 27:24
earwigs, I have not had a thrip
27:24 – 27:25
on my flowers, which is a major
27:25 – 27:26
problem in flower production.
27:27 – 27:29
I can't even remember the last
27:29 – 27:30
time. We used to have to bag our
27:30 – 27:33
dahlias individually to
27:34 – 27:36
keep the press pressure so that
27:36 – 27:37
they didn't eat the petals.
27:37 – 27:39
We can't sell a flower that's
27:39 – 27:40
been like,
27:40 – 27:43
Decimated by a grasshopper so
27:43 – 27:44
we'd bag them and remove the
27:44 – 27:45
bags at harvest.
27:45 – 27:46
I mean, so time consuming to do
27:46 – 27:47
that.
27:47 – 27:49
And now I don't have to, I
27:49 – 27:51
haven't had to bag a dahlia in 4
27:51 – 27:52
years and.
27:53 – 27:54
A lot of that, yeah, the cover
27:54 – 27:56
cropping, the ecosystem stuff
27:56 – 27:57
that we're implementing also
27:57 – 27:58
helps with that.
27:59 – 28:00
The biodiversity and the cover
28:00 – 28:01
cropping helps with that.
28:02 – 28:03
And it's just fun to me.
28:03 – 28:04
Like, it's like a weird little
28:04 – 28:05
puzzle, you know, to put
28:05 – 28:06
together. Like, okay, what's
28:06 – 28:07
something that if we're having
28:07 – 28:08
pest pressure in the dalleys,
28:08 – 28:09
okay, maybe we're going to try
28:09 – 28:10
interplanning buckwheat because
28:10 – 28:12
that's going to bring in a bunch
28:12 – 28:13
of beneficial insects right at
28:13 – 28:14
that peak time when they're
28:14 – 28:15
starting to flower.
28:15 – 28:17
And then that's an easy one to
28:17 – 28:18
terminate by hand, you know.
28:19 – 28:19
So,
28:19 – 28:20
Figuring out all those little
28:20 – 28:21
things has been really fun, but
28:21 – 28:23
the soil profile is the thing
28:23 – 28:25
that when people come and they
28:25 – 28:25
look at our soil.
28:26 – 28:26
We're in Colorado.
28:26 – 28:27
We have heavy clay.
28:28 – 28:29
Everyone here almost loves
28:29 – 28:32
raised beds because we have to
28:32 – 28:33
bring in the soil.
28:33 – 28:34
The clay is too hard.
28:34 – 28:35
It's too big.
28:35 – 28:37
Our soil looks,
28:38 – 28:39
I mean, just phenomenal.
28:40 – 28:41
And it's such a pleasure to work
28:41 – 28:43
in because it's spongy.
28:43 – 28:44
It's soft.
28:44 – 28:47
It's got that texture where the
28:47 – 28:48
soil life is active.
28:49 – 28:51
And so it's really enjoyable to
28:51 – 28:51
work in.
28:51 – 28:52
Well, if you've been doing cover
28:52 – 28:54
crops every single year,
28:54 – 28:56
plus you're bringing in, in the
28:56 – 28:57
case of the perennials, you're
28:57 – 28:58
bringing in mulch and so forth,
28:59 – 29:01
then yeah, you would have soil
29:01 – 29:03
that would be very different
29:03 – 29:04
condition from what you started
29:04 – 29:04
with.
29:05 – 29:06
Give us a bit of an,
29:06 – 29:07
for the benefit of our
29:07 – 29:08
listeners,
29:09 – 29:10
Can you tell us about what is
29:10 – 29:13
the market opportunity in flower
29:13 – 29:13
production, really?
29:13 – 29:16
I have some close personal
29:16 – 29:18
friends who are flower farmers,
29:18 – 29:20
and it's one of the 50 things
29:20 – 29:22
that I would really like to do
29:22 – 29:23
someday that I'll probably never
29:23 – 29:23
get to.
29:24 – 29:27
But I've been really intrigued
29:27 – 29:28
by it, and I've been intrigued
29:28 – 29:31
by the market dynamics as I've
29:31 – 29:32
come to understand them.
29:32 – 29:33
Obviously,
29:33 – 29:34
it's local and regional, but
29:34 – 29:35
there seems to be tremendous
29:35 – 29:36
opportunity in many parts of the
29:36 – 29:37
country.
29:38 – 29:39
Gosh, when you start looking at
29:39 – 29:40
like, you just like we were
29:40 – 29:41
talking about, you know,
29:41 – 29:42
conventional
29:42 – 29:44
when we're talking about
29:44 – 29:46
conventional row crop farmers
29:46 – 29:46
and
29:47 – 29:48
how they've been subject to
29:48 – 29:50
these market conditions that are
29:50 – 29:51
way beyond their control.
29:51 – 29:52
It's.
29:52 – 29:53
the same for flowers, you know,
29:53 – 29:56
back in the 90s is when,
29:56 – 29:57
you know, the U .S.
29:57 – 29:58
government started subsidizing
29:58 – 30:01
Colombian flower growers to try
30:01 – 30:03
to combat the cocaine trade.
30:03 – 30:05
And so they started subsidizing
30:05 – 30:08
greenhouses in, you know,
30:08 – 30:09
Ecuador and Colombia to try to
30:09 – 30:10
combat the drug trade.
30:11 – 30:12
But essentially what they ended
30:12 – 30:13
up doing is
30:13 – 30:16
decimating the American flower
30:16 – 30:17
farming trade. I think it
30:17 – 30:19
plunged by like 90 percent in
30:19 – 30:21
the over the 90s because
30:22 – 30:24
in closer to the equator, of
30:24 – 30:24
course, they have
30:25 – 30:26
growing periods, they can grow
30:26 – 30:28
for more of the year.
30:28 – 30:30
So a lot of like our rose
30:30 – 30:33
production shifted to the
30:33 – 30:35
southern hemisphere and it
30:35 – 30:36
decimated the American flower
30:36 – 30:38
farmer. So I think just in the
30:38 – 30:40
last 10 years, we've really
30:40 – 30:42
started to see an uptick in this
30:42 – 30:44
awareness of
30:45 – 30:46
OK, most of these flowers now
30:46 – 30:47
are being imported.
30:47 – 30:48
They're not grown locally.
30:48 – 30:50
There is really high rates of
30:50 – 30:52
pesticide and herbicide use in
30:52 – 30:53
those growing
30:53 – 30:56
conditions, unfortunately, and
30:56 – 30:57
people wanting to maybe turn
30:57 – 30:58
more back toward local
30:59 – 31:00
local flowers, which is great.
31:01 – 31:03
And, you know, it's it's there's
31:03 – 31:04
a lot of opportunity, I think.
31:04 – 31:06
I think that's it's one of those
31:06 – 31:08
places where knowing
31:08 – 31:09
your farmer is
31:10 – 31:12
is really important because I
31:12 – 31:13
see this unfortunately, I see
31:13 – 31:16
where flower farmers buy in a
31:16 – 31:17
lot of flowers and maybe it's
31:17 – 31:18
like, okay, well, this flower
31:18 – 31:19
isn't necessarily,
31:19 – 31:21
some of them they grew, some of
31:21 – 31:21
them they bought.
31:22 – 31:23
And if people are supporting
31:23 – 31:24
local, they really, they want it
31:24 – 31:26
to be local. So knowing the
31:26 – 31:27
farmer, getting out there,
31:27 – 31:28
talking, showing the field, like
31:28 – 31:29
here's the tulips, we're pulling
31:29 – 31:31
them up, we're harvesting them,
31:31 – 31:32
here they are now, buy them.
31:33 – 31:34
I think people like to see that.
31:34 – 31:36
There is so much opportunity and
31:36 – 31:38
acre -wise,
31:39 – 31:40
it nets for sure the highest
31:40 – 31:43
profit of any crop that you can
31:43 – 31:46
grow, but it comes with...
31:46 – 31:47
That's accurate for the record,
31:47 – 31:48
even higher than marijuana.
31:49 – 31:50
Oh, is it even higher?
31:50 – 31:51
Actually, I didn't know that.
31:50 – 31:51
Oh, yeah.
31:51 – 31:52
Yeah.
31:52 – 31:52
Is that 35?
31:53 – 31:54
An acre? Wow.
31:55 – 31:55
I didn't know that.
31:55 – 31:56
Well, good for me.
31:57 – 31:59
In Colorado, I could grow...
31:59 – 32:00
Yeah.
32:02 – 32:04
But yes, but it comes with a lot
32:04 – 32:06
of labor, very labor intensive
32:06 – 32:06
work
32:07 – 32:08
as well.
32:09 – 32:10
How,
32:10 – 32:11
for people who might be
32:11 – 32:12
interested in exploring it
32:12 – 32:13
further, what are resources that
32:13 – 32:14
you would suggest that people
32:14 – 32:16
are considering or interested in
32:16 – 32:17
possibly growing flowers for
32:17 – 32:18
their local market?
32:19 – 32:20
Check out our YouTube.
32:20 – 32:23
There's lots of great books and
32:23 – 32:24
resources out there.
32:25 – 32:26
I would say for those who want
32:26 – 32:27
to grow regeneratively,
32:29 – 32:30
yeah, pick up a resource.
32:31 – 32:32
I
32:32 – 32:33
obviously just put out the book
32:33 – 32:34
where I show really,
32:34 – 32:36
if you're going to pick up a
32:36 – 32:36
book on the market.
32:36 – 32:37
What's the title of your book?
32:38 – 32:39
The Regenerative Gardener's
32:39 – 32:40
Handbook.
32:41 – 32:43
And we go into things like
32:43 – 32:45
netting because, you know, on a
32:45 – 32:46
farming scale, on a flower
32:46 – 32:47
farming scale,
32:47 – 32:48
we always have to worry about
32:48 – 32:50
the product looking perfect.
32:50 – 32:51
You know, produce, you worry
32:51 – 32:53
about that as well, but flowers
32:53 – 32:54
even more so.
32:55 – 32:56
And so we can't have like a
32:56 – 32:57
weird shaped stem.
32:57 – 32:59
So we'll use a net to make sure
32:59 – 33:00
everything stays upright.
33:00 – 33:02
Well, in traditional, you know,
33:02 – 33:04
usually what we're being shown
33:04 – 33:05
in most books and stuff is this
33:05 – 33:06
plastic knitting,
33:07 – 33:08
which is kind of an
33:09 – 33:11
a nightmare when we're looking
33:11 – 33:12
at, like, at the end of the
33:12 – 33:13
season, we're pulling up this
33:13 – 33:15
plastic netting, and it's
33:15 – 33:16
literally these little six -inch
33:16 – 33:17
holes, and then we're throwing
33:17 – 33:18
that in the landfill, and I'm
33:18 – 33:19
just picturing, like,
33:20 – 33:21
the birds and things getting
33:21 – 33:21
caught in this.
33:21 – 33:23
So we started using things like
33:23 – 33:24
jute netting. You know,
33:24 – 33:26
it's totally doable to do this
33:26 – 33:27
in a way that is lower in
33:27 – 33:28
plastic usage. It's not
33:28 – 33:30
contaminating either the soil or
33:30 – 33:32
the environment with plastic.
33:33 – 33:35
But I'd say, yeah, I mean, check
33:35 – 33:36
out the YouTube, check out the
33:36 – 33:36
book.
33:36 – 33:38
There are more growers getting
33:38 – 33:39
into it now doing more
33:39 – 33:41
regenerative practices and
33:42 – 33:44
think outside the box.
33:44 – 33:45
You know, yes, look at the
33:45 – 33:46
flowers you want to grow, but
33:46 – 33:48
don't necessarily look at these
33:49 – 33:50
entire fields covered in plastic
33:50 – 33:52
mulch and think, I have to do
33:52 – 33:53
that because that's the way
33:53 – 33:54
everybody else is doing it.
33:55 – 33:56
And if you want to be
33:56 – 33:57
profitable, stay small.
33:58 – 34:00
Stay small is a great tip,
34:00 – 34:01
especially for the first couple
34:01 – 34:02
of years, because
34:03 – 34:05
I think people underestimate how
34:05 – 34:06
labor intensive it is to harvest
34:06 – 34:10
flowers by hand and to
34:10 – 34:11
process them and strip them and
34:11 – 34:12
bunch them. And if you're making
34:12 – 34:13
bouquets to make the bouquets to
34:13 – 34:14
keep them in the cooler, take
34:14 – 34:15
them out of the cooler, drive
34:15 – 34:16
them to the market, you know,
34:16 – 34:18
very, very time intensive.
34:19 – 34:19
And so people are like, well,
34:19 – 34:20
I'm going to do an acre.
34:20 – 34:22
Oh, my gosh. If you start out on
34:22 – 34:23
an acre,
34:23 – 34:24
yeah, you're going to be.
34:24 – 34:25
burned out immediately.
34:25 – 34:27
So starting on a quarter of an
34:27 – 34:28
acre, and you can be fairly,
34:29 – 34:30
you know, if you're doing the
34:30 – 34:31
right markets, if you're, if
34:31 – 34:32
you're saying, okay, I'm going
34:32 – 34:34
to tackle like custom upscale
34:34 – 34:35
weddings,
34:35 – 34:38
you can do that on a smaller
34:38 – 34:39
scale.
34:40 – 34:41
CSAs, wholesale, for that kind
34:41 – 34:42
of stuff you want bigger
34:42 – 34:43
property.
34:43 – 34:44
And then also limit the number
34:44 – 34:47
of varieties that you're growing
34:47 – 34:47
the first year.
34:47 – 34:48
Because flower farming, it can
34:48 – 34:50
be easy to start like, okay, I'm
34:50 – 34:52
going to grow 50 different
34:52 – 34:53
things in one space because
34:53 – 34:54
there's so many beautiful
34:54 – 34:55
flowers and choices.
34:56 – 34:56
But really,
34:57 – 34:59
it would be best to focus on,
34:59 – 35:00
you know, five for your first
35:00 – 35:01
season and really learn to grow
35:01 – 35:03
them well and then branch out
35:03 – 35:04
and find out, okay, here's the
35:04 – 35:05
gaps maybe that I need to fill
35:05 – 35:06
in.
35:07 – 35:08
It just occurs to me, I was
35:08 – 35:10
about to move to the
35:10 – 35:11
conversation about the Minnesota
35:11 – 35:13
operation, but one of the things
35:13 – 35:15
that we missed talking about is
35:15 – 35:17
you spoke about how insect
35:17 – 35:18
pressure has declined.
35:18 – 35:19
You no longer have the threat
35:19 – 35:20
pressure and some of the other
35:20 – 35:20
things.
35:20 – 35:22
And, and we didn't really speak
35:22 – 35:23
about disease pressure.
35:23 – 35:25
How has disease pressure changed
35:25 – 35:26
over time?
35:26 – 35:27
The only thing that we still
35:27 – 35:30
battle is powdery mildew on the
35:30 – 35:32
peonies. And actually I got some
35:32 – 35:34
of the pinyon in the fall,
35:35 – 35:37
which was like a game changer
35:37 – 35:37
for me.
35:37 – 35:38
Yes.
35:40 – 35:41
So what happened?
35:42 – 35:43
You know,
35:43 – 35:45
so I treated, I treated with the
35:45 – 35:47
pinyon in the fall and we all, I
35:47 – 35:49
mean the powdery mildew was
35:49 – 35:50
already
35:51 – 35:51
pretty heavy at that point.
35:52 – 35:52
It's just very common in
35:52 – 35:53
peonies.
35:53 – 35:54
And that really isn't like a
35:54 – 35:55
smell.
35:54 – 35:55
It's just like, it's like, you
35:55 – 35:56
know, you just, at some point in
35:56 – 35:58
the season, you probably get it.
35:59 – 36:02
And within, I'd say within two
36:03 – 36:03
weeks,
36:04 – 36:05
the plant, I mean, they looked
36:05 – 36:06
almost like back to what they
36:06 – 36:07
look like in the spring.
36:07 – 36:09
I didn't even know you tried it.
36:09 – 36:11
I did. I got the special like
36:11 – 36:14
before it was even out
36:14 – 36:15
there.
36:15 – 36:16
Katie brought it over.
36:17 – 36:18
one of the AA employees brought
36:18 – 36:19
it over like in a little jar,
36:20 – 36:20
like a little honey jar.
36:21 – 36:21
She's like, it's not honey,
36:22 – 36:22
don't.
36:25 – 36:27
So that, but that's the only,
36:28 – 36:29
we don't deal with, we used to
36:29 – 36:30
deal with
36:31 – 36:32
I mean, even, you know, we grow
36:32 – 36:34
produce, so like things like
36:34 – 36:35
blossom end rot.
36:35 – 36:35
I mean, some of that has just
36:35 – 36:36
been learning
36:36 – 36:38
planting times and watering
36:38 – 36:41
methods, but I haven't had,
36:41 – 36:43
gosh, I haven't had a fungus
36:43 – 36:44
issue in
36:44 – 36:45
five years.
36:46 – 36:47
And it used to be things like,
36:47 – 36:48
oh,
36:48 – 36:50
botrytis, we would get a lot,
36:50 – 36:52
especially with the colder
36:52 – 36:53
season flowers.
36:54 – 36:55
I haven't seen this.
36:55 – 36:56
I haven't had to deal with
36:56 – 36:57
anything other than powdery
36:57 – 36:58
mildew for years.
36:59 – 37:00
And even the powdery mildew is,
37:00 – 37:02
it's only the peonies.
37:02 – 37:02
It's only the peonies.
37:02 – 37:03
Yeah.
37:04 – 37:06
Well, I predict, I predict the
37:06 – 37:07
day will come when you won't
37:07 – 37:08
need pinion on the peonies
37:08 – 37:09
anymore either.
37:09 – 37:10
I hope so.
37:10 – 37:11
I'm waiting for that day.
37:14 – 37:15
Yeah.
37:14 – 37:15
So
37:15 – 37:17
let's, let's get into the
37:17 – 37:18
Minnesota operation a little
37:18 – 37:19
bit.
37:20 – 37:21
Are you still primarily corn and
37:21 – 37:21
soybeans?
37:22 – 37:23
Yeah. Yes.
37:23 – 37:24
It's one of the things that I've
37:24 – 37:25
been struggling with because
37:25 – 37:25
obviously soybean,
37:26 – 37:27
I mean, both markets right now
37:27 – 37:28
are very volatile.
37:30 – 37:31
Soybeans.
37:32 – 37:34
You are on the opposite ends of
37:34 – 37:35
the spectrum. You have flour
37:35 – 37:36
production on one end of the
37:36 – 37:37
spectrum and then mainstream
37:37 – 37:38
commodities on the other.
37:38 – 37:40
That must be quite the yo -yo.
37:40 – 37:42
It's bizarre because, yeah, on
37:42 – 37:43
the retail side, you know,
37:43 – 37:44
retail, I have total control
37:44 – 37:45
over my pricing.
37:45 – 37:46
I have total control over, you
37:46 – 37:47
know, all of this stuff.
37:47 – 37:51
And then I pivot to to the corn
37:51 – 37:52
and soybeans. And it's like, oh,
37:52 – 37:53
you don't set your pricing.
37:54 – 37:55
You don't really market your.
37:56 – 37:57
I mean, you do to an extent, but
37:57 – 37:59
it's not marketing, you know,
37:59 – 38:01
like I market my flowers wildly
38:02 – 38:03
different and wildly different.
38:03 – 38:04
How out of control I feel like
38:04 – 38:05
it is.
38:06 – 38:07
So that's been a struggle.
38:10 – 38:12
It's also just been even just
38:13 – 38:15
getting people
38:15 – 38:16
to
38:17 – 38:18
work with me on it.
38:18 – 38:20
It's in an area where it's very
38:20 – 38:21
conventional.
38:22 – 38:24
They're actually, they just
38:24 – 38:26
built an oak. up there that's
38:26 – 38:26
opening this spring.
38:26 – 38:27
So I'm really excited about
38:27 – 38:28
that.
38:29 – 38:30
Yeah,
38:29 – 38:31
yeah. So that'll open up a new
38:31 – 38:33
market opportunity for oats,
38:33 – 38:34
which is fabulous because this
38:34 – 38:35
is, again, like one of those
38:35 – 38:36
things that people are like,
38:36 – 38:37
well, why don't the farmers just
38:37 – 38:38
grow something else?
38:38 – 38:39
It's like, well,
38:39 – 38:40
if there's no mill to take it
38:40 – 38:41
to,
38:42 – 38:43
you know, I think a lot of
38:43 – 38:44
people again, they don't
38:44 – 38:45
understand like really the way
38:45 – 38:47
that marketing these huge crops
38:47 – 38:48
works.
38:48 – 38:50
And if there's no mill for us to
38:50 – 38:51
take, I want to grow a small
38:51 – 38:52
grain.
38:52 – 38:53
But if I can't, if I don't have
38:53 – 38:55
a mill to sell it to,
38:56 – 38:57
you're out of luck.
38:57 – 38:59
So I struggle between I want to
38:59 – 39:00
do corn and soybeans.
39:00 – 39:01
I'd like to integrate a small
39:01 – 39:02
grain. I would love to do a
39:02 – 39:03
perennial wheat like Kernza.
39:05 – 39:06
I struggle with that.
39:06 – 39:08
But on the other hand, I want to
39:08 – 39:10
still do what most farmers are
39:10 – 39:12
doing and show these practices
39:12 – 39:14
and these processes in
39:14 – 39:16
a way that people can be like,
39:16 – 39:17
OK, well, I know I'm going to
39:17 – 39:18
grow soybeans because they all
39:18 – 39:19
still are going to probably grow
39:19 – 39:20
soybeans.
39:20 – 39:21
So how can we show these
39:21 – 39:23
practices in
39:23 – 39:25
a way that people will still
39:25 – 39:26
relate to?
39:26 – 39:27
And you
39:27 – 39:28
mentioned at the beginning of
39:28 – 39:31
our conversation that you have
39:31 – 39:32
been doing some experimentation.
39:32 – 39:32
You've been gradually
39:32 – 39:34
transitioning various sections
39:34 – 39:35
at a time as you've gained more
39:35 – 39:36
experience.
39:37 – 39:38
What have been some of the
39:38 – 39:39
things that you've tried and
39:39 – 39:41
what does that transition look
39:41 – 39:42
like? What's the process been
39:42 – 39:43
like?
39:43 – 39:45
You know, I had this, of course,
39:45 – 39:46
I've been working with ad
39:46 – 39:49
consultants at AEA.
39:49 – 39:50
And, you
39:51 – 39:51
know, I think
39:52 – 39:53
I was torn because I listened to
39:53 – 39:54
your podcast, obviously, and I
39:54 – 39:55
know a lot of the conversation
39:55 – 39:56
is often about this gradual
39:56 – 39:57
transition,
39:58 – 39:59
and that it doesn't have to be
39:59 – 39:59
this all at once thing.
40:01 – 40:02
For me,
40:03 – 40:04
I have,
40:04 – 40:05
thankfully,
40:05 – 40:07
basically our YouTube supporters
40:07 – 40:08
or YouTube viewers are paying
40:08 – 40:09
for this project.
40:10 – 40:12
So I don't have the pressure of,
40:13 – 40:14
OK, on this 20 acres,
40:15 – 40:18
I have to make sure that I make
40:18 – 40:19
x dollar.
40:19 – 40:20
I want some more money.
40:20 – 40:21
in the soil health stuff.
40:21 – 40:22
So for me, I kind of jumped in.
40:23 – 40:25
I was like, we're going non -GMO
40:25 – 40:27
corn. We're going totally
40:27 – 40:28
herbicide free.
40:28 – 40:30
We're going no fungicide.
40:30 – 40:31
We're going
40:32 – 40:34
half or two thirds of
40:34 – 40:38
nitrogen application all at
40:38 – 40:39
once, right?
40:39 – 40:41
So - Okay, you said a couple of
40:41 – 40:42
things there that are pretty
40:42 – 40:44
intriguing. No herbicide and no
40:44 – 40:44
fungicide.
40:45 – 40:46
That's quite the cliff to jump
40:46 – 40:49
off of. It was a huge cliff.
40:50 – 40:52
And part of it was because,
40:53 – 40:55
as I mentioned, there is this,
40:55 – 40:56
and it's one of those things
40:56 – 40:57
that I think that farmers do
40:57 – 40:58
struggle with. Like, okay, yeah,
40:59 – 41:00
I have 1 .5 million people
41:00 – 41:00
watching me do this.
41:01 – 41:03
if I go in and I start doing
41:03 – 41:05
regenerative practices and I'm
41:05 – 41:06
using a GMO corn,
41:07 – 41:08
there is going to be a
41:08 – 41:09
conception, a perception there,
41:10 – 41:11
whether it's true or not,
41:11 – 41:13
there's going to be a perception
41:13 – 41:14
there that, well, you're not
41:14 – 41:15
really doing it regeneratively.
41:16 – 41:18
Or if I show herbicide,
41:18 – 41:19
they're going to be like, well,
41:19 – 41:20
you're not really, you know,
41:20 – 41:21
this isn't really good for the
41:21 – 41:22
ecosystem.
41:22 – 41:25
So it's a mix of trying to do
41:26 – 41:27
it in a way that's really going
41:27 – 41:28
to truly appeal to people, but
41:29 – 41:30
The other side of it is that I
41:30 – 41:32
kind of wanted to show like, oh,
41:32 – 41:33
here's what didn't work when we
41:33 – 41:34
did that.
41:34 – 41:37
Here's why sometimes that can be
41:37 – 41:38
not the best.
41:39 – 41:41
An example of that would be like
41:41 – 41:42
our water we have.
41:42 – 41:43
waterhemp,
41:43 – 41:45
especially in one like, we call
41:45 – 41:47
it the little boot of the farm.
41:47 – 41:48
And it's like the tip of the
41:48 – 41:49
boot, and it's right by the
41:49 – 41:51
creek. So we've got CRP land
41:51 – 41:52
there, obviously, there's a lot
41:52 – 41:54
of seeds and stuff over there.
41:54 – 41:56
So the waterhemp started, I had
41:56 – 41:58
said, you know, nowhere beside.
41:59 – 42:01
So the waterhemp started coming.
42:02 – 42:04
And this is where like, I'd
42:04 – 42:06
wanted, ideally, we would have
42:06 – 42:07
gotten our cover crop in
42:07 – 42:07
earlier.
42:07 – 42:08
And we would have had it
42:08 – 42:10
interseeded into the corn at
42:10 – 42:11
like V6.
42:12 – 42:13
we didn't get there.
42:13 – 42:15
And so it wasn't that easy.
42:15 – 42:16
there when I needed it to help
42:16 – 42:17
keep
42:18 – 42:19
that weed pressure down.
42:19 – 42:21
So that waterhemp was taller
42:21 – 42:21
than the corn,
42:22 – 42:23
especially in that one area.
42:23 – 42:24
Of course, we took a hit on that
42:24 – 42:26
on yield for sure.
42:27 – 42:28
That was one of those situations
42:28 – 42:29
where it was like, okay, well,
42:29 – 42:31
maybe we start with
42:32 – 42:33
we keep the herbicide, you know,
42:34 – 42:34
for the first couple of years
42:34 – 42:37
while we are getting this cover
42:37 – 42:39
crop system down and really
42:39 – 42:40
nailed down in the timing.
42:41 – 42:43
And then once we get that down,
42:43 – 42:44
then, then, okay, we can start
42:44 – 42:45
to eliminate these other things.
42:45 – 42:47
I was really happy with how it
42:47 – 42:48
performs still fungicide
42:48 – 42:49
without,
42:49 – 42:50
I mean, we had very little
42:50 – 42:51
fungus issue.
42:51 – 42:53
I did do double spacing on the
42:53 – 42:53
rows.
42:53 – 42:54
So we did a 60 inch corn.
42:55 – 42:57
We did both. We did a 30 and a
42:57 – 42:57
60.
42:58 – 42:59
The 60 inch corn,
43:00 – 43:02
just the air circulation in and
43:02 – 43:04
of itself, I think helped quite
43:04 – 43:04
a bit.
43:05 – 43:06
There's southern.
43:06 – 43:07
Did you keep the same plant
43:07 – 43:08
population on 60 inches?
43:09 – 43:10
We did. We kept the same
43:10 – 43:11
population for both.
43:11 – 43:12
I think we did 30,
43:13 – 43:14
32 ,000 maybe.
43:15 – 43:16
Unfortunately, we didn't do twin
43:16 – 43:17
row.
43:16 – 43:18
Our farmer's planter was not set
43:18 – 43:21
up for it. So it was, you know,
43:21 – 43:23
it was pretty tight in there.
43:24 – 43:25
But interestingly, I mean, the
43:25 – 43:26
patches where
43:27 – 43:27
In the 60,
43:28 – 43:29
the patches where there wasn't
43:29 – 43:30
the weed pressure,
43:30 – 43:32
we were yielding 220 bushels.
43:34 – 43:35
So,
43:35 – 43:37
I was pretty happy with that.
43:37 – 43:38
You know, in terms of, again,
43:39 – 43:40
because we were able to cut the
43:40 – 43:41
fungicide and the benefit of
43:41 – 43:44
that 60 -inch row was that we
43:44 – 43:45
could get cover crop growth
43:46 – 43:47
outside of the season we
43:47 – 43:49
typically can in Minnesota.
43:49 – 43:50
You know, Minnesota
43:51 – 43:52
shorter growing season.
43:52 – 43:53
So usually the struggle that we
43:53 – 43:55
had and our farmers had tried
43:55 – 43:57
cover cropping in the shoulders,
43:57 – 43:59
but when you're dealing with,
43:59 – 44:00
okay, we can cover crop after
44:00 – 44:02
November and we need to do it by
44:02 – 44:04
April, the growth you're getting
44:04 – 44:05
is just so minimal.
44:05 – 44:07
So that's when we started doing
44:07 – 44:08
the inner cropping instead.
44:08 – 44:10
And gosh, I was so happy.
44:10 – 44:10
with
44:10 – 44:12
how it performed,
44:12 – 44:14
both in a biodiversity
44:14 – 44:15
standpoint,
44:15 – 44:16
but also interestingly, I think
44:16 – 44:17
it opens it up, and I'm sure
44:17 – 44:18
you've had people on before that
44:18 – 44:19
do the 60,
44:20 – 44:23
shift it over for the next year,
44:23 – 44:24
plant the corn into the cover
44:24 – 44:25
crop residue,
44:25 – 44:26
and they do corn on corn.
44:27 – 44:27
I mean, that's
44:28 – 44:29
when you're bringing in a 10
44:29 – 44:31
species cover crop mix, you've
44:31 – 44:32
got biodiversity there.
44:33 – 44:34
you know, as long as you're not
44:34 – 44:35
dealing with something with
44:35 – 44:36
cornworm, it's something doable
44:36 – 44:37
that we could start looking at.
44:38 – 44:39
So
44:39 – 44:40
again, I don't want to do a lot
44:40 – 44:43
of monoculture, but it's kind of
44:43 – 44:45
the reality of the system again.
44:46 – 44:48
What happened after the
44:48 – 44:49
waterhemp experience?
44:49 – 44:51
I'm not sure exactly when that
44:51 – 44:53
happened, but I'm curious, have
44:53 – 44:54
you had any follow -up
44:54 – 44:55
experiences where you were able
44:55 – 44:56
to get cover crops planted
44:56 – 44:58
earlier and perhaps regain some
44:58 – 44:59
degree of control over that?
44:59 – 45:01
So what we're trying out, what
45:01 – 45:02
we're trying this year is we're
45:02 – 45:04
basically doing an early
45:04 – 45:06
planting. We're doing a very
45:06 – 45:08
dense planting of soybeans.
45:08 – 45:09
So we are doing soybeans again
45:09 – 45:10
this year.
45:11 – 45:12
We had thought about maybe
45:12 – 45:13
trying oats.
45:13 – 45:14
I think that might be something
45:14 – 45:15
we get into for next year.
45:16 – 45:18
So we're doing a much higher
45:18 – 45:19
population, especially in that
45:19 – 45:20
area.
45:20 – 45:22
I am kind of of the mind of
45:22 – 45:23
like, okay, we've gotten this
45:23 – 45:24
far.
45:24 – 45:26
We've done, you know, under our
45:26 – 45:27
belt now without herbicide.
45:28 – 45:30
let's see how it does another
45:30 – 45:31
year,
45:32 – 45:33
you know, maybe we'll do a pre
45:33 – 45:35
-emerge, it's possible we'll try
45:35 – 45:37
that if it looks like.
45:37 – 45:39
And just for clarification, when
45:39 – 45:39
you've been going without
45:39 – 45:41
herbicide, has there been any
45:41 – 45:42
tillage in the system?
45:42 – 45:45
Not till, it's been two years no
45:45 – 45:45
till.
45:45 – 45:46
Okay.
45:47 – 45:49
And I'm curious, earlier in our
45:49 – 45:51
conversation, we spoke about the
45:51 – 45:54
somewhat vitriolic reaction that
45:54 – 45:56
can occur on social media when
45:56 – 45:58
farmers and when you speak about
45:58 – 45:59
the use of herbicides and so
45:59 – 46:00
forth.
46:00 – 46:02
So what has the counterpoint to
46:02 – 46:04
that been? What has the response
46:04 – 46:05
been? when you've
46:06 – 46:08
showed that this is what we did
46:08 – 46:10
and the
46:11 – 46:12
results in this particular
46:12 – 46:13
scenario were less than ideal?
46:14 – 46:15
So,
46:15 – 46:16
you know, it's interesting
46:16 – 46:17
because I
46:18 – 46:19
think people,
46:19 – 46:20
I
46:20 – 46:22
don't think people like your
46:22 – 46:23
average consumer
46:23 – 46:26
understands quite as much, you
46:26 – 46:26
know,
46:26 – 46:27
the farmers, I think would look
46:27 – 46:29
at that and be like, okay, yeah,
46:29 – 46:30
you took a yield hit.
46:32 – 46:33
probably not something I'm going
46:33 – 46:33
to do.
46:34 – 46:36
An average consumer looks at it
46:36 – 46:37
differently.
46:37 – 46:39
And they look at it, and they're
46:39 – 46:40
like, wow, this is great.
46:40 – 46:40
Look, it can be done.
46:40 – 46:42
But they don't, again, it's one
46:42 – 46:43
of those things where they don't
46:43 – 46:45
understand that a
46:45 – 46:48
20 bushel an acre difference can
46:48 – 46:50
be the difference between profit
46:50 – 46:51
and not profit.
46:51 – 46:53
And if that's the difference
46:53 – 46:55
that you get with a hit from
46:55 – 46:57
waterhemp, then yeah, your
46:57 – 46:58
average farmer is going to look
46:58 – 46:58
at that and be like,
46:59 – 46:59
No,
46:59 – 47:01
not can be. It's not can be the
47:01 – 47:03
difference. It is the difference
47:03 – 47:04
between red or black.
47:04 – 47:06
Especially in this market, yeah.
47:06 – 47:07
I mean, it's a five bushel
47:07 – 47:08
difference, right?
47:09 – 47:10
It can be, yeah, anything.
47:10 – 47:12
And so I think this year will be
47:12 – 47:13
interesting. I mean, side note,
47:13 – 47:14
but I think this year will be
47:14 – 47:15
interesting with fertilizer
47:15 – 47:17
prices and to
47:17 – 47:19
see if that's still the
47:19 – 47:21
case, to see if it's still worth
47:21 – 47:23
putting on all the inputs for
47:23 – 47:24
what
47:24 – 47:25
the price is. I don't know,
47:26 – 47:27
things that keep me up at night.
47:28 – 47:30
Yeah, I mean, I think there's a
47:30 – 47:32
big gap between people who
47:32 – 47:34
really are in the farming world
47:34 – 47:36
and know what the dollars and
47:36 – 47:37
cents are and the people who are
47:37 – 47:39
looking at this and saying like,
47:40 – 47:40
oh, everyone should be doing
47:40 – 47:41
regenerative.
47:43 – 47:44
It's,
47:44 – 47:46
they, it's very hard and it was
47:46 – 47:47
one of those things I'm trying
47:47 – 47:50
to bridge is like, here is why,
47:50 – 47:52
when you look at this giant
47:52 – 47:53
waterhemp patch and how we had
47:53 – 47:55
to like, even combining that,
47:56 – 47:57
how difficult it was and that
47:57 – 47:58
was more labor intensive.
47:59 – 48:01
And yeah, you can't do that on 4
48:01 – 48:01
,000 acres.
48:02 – 48:03
I
48:03 – 48:04
have a question that I'd like to
48:04 – 48:05
get your perspective on.
48:06 – 48:06
That's a question that I've been
48:06 – 48:08
thinking a lot about recently.
48:08 – 48:10
We understand
48:11 – 48:13
that there are many growers who
48:13 – 48:14
are,
48:15 – 48:16
for a variety of reasons,
48:17 – 48:19
some imaginary and many real,
48:20 – 48:21
are feeling stuck.
48:21 – 48:22
they're feeling stuck.
48:22 – 48:23
They can only produce,
48:24 – 48:25
in the case that you described
48:25 – 48:26
logistically,
48:26 – 48:27
if you want to produce something
48:27 – 48:28
other than corn and soybeans,
48:28 – 48:29
you have nowhere to go with it.
48:29 – 48:31
There are many growers in that
48:31 – 48:33
scenario and there's a wide
48:33 – 48:36
array of very real reasons
48:36 – 48:38
why they feel stuck.
48:39 – 48:41
And you see, you have the
48:41 – 48:41
benefit of having
48:42 – 48:44
a different perspective as well,
48:44 – 48:45
where you
48:45 – 48:47
have a very successful flower
48:48 – 48:49
farm enterprise, a very
48:49 – 48:50
different environment, very
48:50 – 48:50
different context.
48:53 – 48:54
When you think about
48:55 – 48:56
I suppose the question is for
48:58 – 49:01
farmers who truly want to opt
49:01 – 49:02
out, they want to go in a
49:02 – 49:03
different direction,
49:03 – 49:05
but they have no idea how to do
49:05 – 49:06
that or where to begin.
49:07 – 49:09
I'm so glad you asked that.
49:09 – 49:10
I think that's a great question
49:10 – 49:11
and I think it's something that
49:11 – 49:13
a lot of viewers might,
49:14 – 49:14
you know, it's something that
49:14 – 49:15
I've been thinking about,
49:15 – 49:17
because again, I look at it, I
49:17 – 49:18
look at all of this from a
49:18 – 49:19
business perspective, just like
49:19 – 49:20
every farmer, I think does to a
49:20 – 49:23
certain extent of like, yeah,
49:23 – 49:24
this has to be profitable for
49:24 – 49:25
us, this has to be profitable
49:25 – 49:26
for future generations.
49:27 – 49:29
And at the same time, looking at
49:29 – 49:30
there is this interesting
49:30 – 49:34
context of people who want to
49:34 – 49:35
know their farmers, people who
49:35 – 49:37
have an interest in buying
49:37 – 49:40
food that is being grown in this
49:40 – 49:41
way and knowing that the
49:41 – 49:43
nutritional difference is, is
49:43 – 49:44
significant.
49:44 – 49:46
And so you have this opportunity
49:46 – 49:48
of, okay, we've got the consumer
49:48 – 49:49
who wants it. We've got the
49:49 – 49:51
farmer who is working now within
49:51 – 49:52
the system that is not working
49:52 – 49:53
anymore.
49:54 – 49:55
And how do we those two things
49:55 – 49:56
together?
49:57 – 49:58
I think there are some people
49:58 – 50:00
doing some work in this space in
50:00 – 50:02
creating apps and that kind of
50:02 – 50:04
thing that connect farmers with
50:04 – 50:05
consumers.
50:05 – 50:07
I think that what I see
50:07 – 50:10
happening for those who are
50:10 – 50:11
really motivated to do it, maybe
50:11 – 50:13
who have younger generations who
50:13 – 50:15
are questioning whether they
50:15 – 50:16
want to be farming or not
50:16 – 50:17
because of all these issues.
50:17 – 50:18
I think there's a great
50:18 – 50:20
opportunity for people to start
50:20 – 50:22
doing converting five acres at a
50:22 – 50:24
time, 10 acres at a time.
50:24 – 50:25
Okay, even if you're not getting
50:25 – 50:26
it certified organic, you're
50:26 – 50:28
just going to start growing
50:28 – 50:30
regeneratively on this soil,
50:30 – 50:31
you're going to start dabbling
50:31 – 50:32
with things like heirloom
50:32 – 50:34
wheats, you're going to start
50:34 – 50:36
dabbling with things like oats,
50:36 – 50:37
black oats, you know, the
50:37 – 50:39
specialty crops that there is a
50:39 – 50:41
market for for home for home
50:42 – 50:44
consumers and say, okay, I'm
50:44 – 50:45
going to start doing this at the
50:45 – 50:46
same time.
50:46 – 50:47
I'm going to start making these
50:47 – 50:50
connections with my, with my
50:50 – 50:51
local consumers.
50:51 – 50:52
I'm going to start making
50:52 – 50:53
connections with, I'm going to
50:53 – 50:55
start making this painful social
50:55 – 50:55
media posts.
50:56 – 50:56
I'm going to be out in the
50:56 – 50:57
field.
50:57 – 50:58
I'm going to show this.
50:58 – 50:59
Painful you say?
51:00 – 51:01
Just
51:01 – 51:02
a little painful.
51:02 – 51:04
It doesn't have to be painful,
51:05 – 51:05
but you know, I'm going to start
51:05 – 51:06
showing like.
51:07 – 51:08
Perception is reality.
51:08 – 51:10
Perception is sometimes reality.
51:11 – 51:12
Maybe they're going to say like,
51:12 – 51:14
here, I'm going to do a video
51:14 – 51:15
from my
51:15 – 51:17
tractor showing us planting this
51:17 – 51:19
and like showing this beautiful
51:19 – 51:20
farmland. And here's where this
51:20 – 51:21
wheat's going to come from.
51:21 – 51:23
And I'm going to start taking a
51:23 – 51:24
list of people who want to buy
51:24 – 51:25
this wheat that I'm growing
51:25 – 51:26
regeneratively.
51:26 – 51:27
Maybe I have shareholders.
51:28 – 51:29
Maybe I have 20 people who are
51:29 – 51:31
going to help me finance this.
51:32 – 51:33
And in return, at the end of the
51:33 – 51:34
season, they get a five pound
51:34 – 51:37
bag of this beautiful heirloom
51:37 – 51:38
wheat that they can mill at
51:38 – 51:39
home.
51:41 – 51:43
It's a huge mindset change, I
51:43 – 51:45
think, for a lot of farmers to
51:45 – 51:47
even think about doing retail
51:48 – 51:49
work.
51:50 – 51:51
But the potential,
51:52 – 51:53
especially now,
51:54 – 51:55
early on, I think is huge.
51:56 – 51:56
The
51:57 – 51:58
people who are out there selling
51:58 – 52:00
this like heirloom wheat or even
52:00 – 52:02
doing small scale milling, I
52:02 – 52:03
mean, the amount that they
52:03 – 52:04
charge when you look at how much
52:04 – 52:05
they're charging for five pounds
52:05 – 52:09
of heirloom wheat, there's a
52:09 – 52:09
huge opportunity.
52:11 – 52:12
But most of them are not growing
52:12 – 52:13
it themselves. Most of them are
52:13 – 52:14
buying it from another source
52:14 – 52:15
and reselling it.
52:15 – 52:16
But if you can tap into that,
52:17 – 52:18
like people want another farmer,
52:18 – 52:19
they want to see the land where
52:19 – 52:20
it's being grown.
52:20 – 52:21
All these pesticides that have
52:21 – 52:23
just been, you know, made that
52:23 – 52:25
the EPA has now said that can be
52:25 – 52:27
used are scary.
52:27 – 52:29
And there's no one knows what's
52:29 – 52:30
going to be on their flower
52:30 – 52:31
anymore.
52:32 – 52:33
People want and people are in
52:33 – 52:34
tune with this.
52:33 – 52:34
They know what's happening.
52:35 – 52:36
They want the opportunity to buy
52:36 – 52:37
the stuff that's not been
52:37 – 52:38
treated with it and to buy it
52:38 – 52:39
from someone they trust.
52:40 – 52:41
So I think there's an
52:41 – 52:42
opportunity, but it's going to
52:42 – 52:44
take uncomfortable transition
52:44 – 52:46
periods where farmers maybe have
52:46 – 52:48
to learn how to market
52:48 – 52:51
retail, how to ship retail, or
52:51 – 52:52
or even if it's partnering with
52:52 – 52:54
someone else who's going to do
52:54 – 52:55
all that shipping and retail
52:55 – 52:57
work for you. But I think
52:57 – 52:58
there's opportunities, but
52:59 – 53:00
it's
53:00 – 53:01
it's uncomfortable growth.
53:03 – 53:04
I'm I'm of the opinion.
53:05 – 53:07
there are perhaps exceptions,
53:07 – 53:08
but I'm of the opinion that
53:08 – 53:09
generally the
53:10 – 53:11
biggest
53:11 – 53:14
financial opportunities are in
53:14 – 53:15
the smallest scale operations.
53:18 – 53:20
I think there's more,
53:21 – 53:22
for many growers,
53:23 – 53:24
there's greater financial
53:24 – 53:25
opportunity in growing one acre
53:25 – 53:27
of wheat and selling it as flour
53:27 – 53:29
than there is in growing 50
53:29 – 53:30
acres of wheat and selling it as
53:30 – 53:31
grain.
53:32 – 53:33
So there's that value added
53:33 – 53:34
component, there's the
53:34 – 53:34
additional component, but the
53:34 – 53:35
point that you made, when you
53:35 – 53:37
start selling wheat by the pound
53:37 – 53:38
as flour instead of by the
53:38 – 53:39
bushel,
53:40 – 53:41
Yes,
53:42 – 53:43
there is additional labor, there
53:43 – 53:43
is additional overhead,
53:44 – 53:45
but proportionally
53:45 – 53:46
to the value derived from that
53:46 – 53:48
is completely disproportional.
53:49 – 53:50
And,
53:51 – 53:52
um,
53:52 – 53:53
yeah, I have, I have so many
53:53 – 53:55
thoughts on this topic, just as
53:55 – 53:58
a one thing I'll share kind of
53:58 – 54:00
tangentially related, but
54:00 – 54:01
on a, on a personal note,
54:02 – 54:04
um, I want to make certain I
54:05 – 54:06
have a five -year -old daughter
54:06 – 54:09
and I care deeply.
54:09 – 54:10
I have,
54:10 – 54:12
I have teeth quality issues
54:12 – 54:13
because of,
54:13 – 54:15
what my diet was like when I was
54:15 – 54:15
growing up.
54:16 – 54:17
I want to make sure
54:17 – 54:19
that she is in a very different
54:19 – 54:20
position.
54:20 – 54:22
And so we
54:22 – 54:24
are growing a large proportion
54:24 – 54:25
of our food
54:25 – 54:28
and I'm making certain that that
54:28 – 54:30
is extremely mineralized.
54:30 – 54:31
So
54:30 – 54:33
we are growing oats and we are
54:33 – 54:35
growing wheat on a garden scale.
54:35 – 54:37
We're a family of three people.
54:37 – 54:39
I need a bushel or two at most.
54:40 – 54:42
And I'm growing that grain with
54:42 – 54:45
deliberately high doses of
54:45 – 54:47
calcium and boron and zinc and
54:47 – 54:48
all these magnesium, all these
54:48 – 54:49
various elements.
54:49 – 54:50
We're measuring the nutritional
54:50 – 54:52
content and we are milling our
54:52 – 54:54
own grain. And by the way, I
54:54 – 54:56
know for a fact that I can't buy
54:56 – 54:58
grain that has the flavor
54:58 – 55:00
and the eating characteristics
55:00 – 55:02
that this grain does.
55:02 – 55:03
Even that grown regeneratively
55:03 – 55:05
because I'm able to really focus
55:05 – 55:07
on it and really take care of
55:07 – 55:08
it. It's like,
55:08 – 55:09
do you realize, I don't think
55:09 – 55:10
people really grasp
55:11 – 55:13
and don't really know how easy
55:13 – 55:14
it is to grow a bushel of grain
55:14 – 55:15
in a garden.
55:15 – 55:16
It's no harder than growing 20
55:16 – 55:17
tomato plants.
55:18 – 55:20
And so
55:21 – 55:24
I'm a bit of an outlier in the
55:24 – 55:26
sense that I'm willing to go to
55:26 – 55:27
that extreme, to that distance.
55:28 – 55:30
But at the same time, there are
55:30 – 55:32
many people who have that same
55:32 – 55:34
passion, that same drive, that
55:34 – 55:35
same desire.
55:35 – 55:35
They don't necessarily have the
55:35 – 55:36
same capability and the
55:36 – 55:37
resources that I do.
55:37 – 55:38
They don't have the same
55:38 – 55:39
knowledge base, but they are
55:39 – 55:40
willing
55:40 – 55:42
they want to set up their
55:42 – 55:43
children for
55:43 – 55:45
success and their grandchildren.
55:45 – 55:46
And I think some of the research
55:46 – 55:48
that is emerging in medicine of
55:48 – 55:51
the realization that actually we
55:51 – 55:52
determine our
55:53 – 55:55
grandchildren's health by our
55:55 – 55:56
diet
55:56 – 55:58
is really starting to
55:58 – 56:00
get
56:00 – 56:03
into the consciousness of a
56:03 – 56:04
larger proportion of the
56:04 – 56:05
population than we might expect.
56:06 – 56:08
Yeah. And it is wild when you
56:08 – 56:09
think of it that way, like how
56:09 – 56:11
it's not just what they're
56:11 – 56:13
eating that week or that month,
56:14 – 56:15
you know, like you said, I mean,
56:15 – 56:16
it's what they're eating now and
56:16 – 56:17
they're finding this.
56:17 – 56:18
I'm sure you've even found too,
56:19 – 56:21
you know, with colon cancer and
56:21 – 56:24
how at birth, you know, even at
56:24 – 56:25
birth, those levels are being
56:25 – 56:28
your risk level is going up or
56:28 – 56:29
down.
56:29 – 56:31
every choice that that we make
56:31 – 56:32
when we're feeding them.
56:32 – 56:34
And it is scary, I think, for a
56:34 – 56:35
lot of people just seeing what's
56:35 – 56:37
been happening with with the EPA
56:37 – 56:39
and the pesticide usage and and
56:39 – 56:40
things that are now being
56:40 – 56:41
allowed again that have been
56:41 – 56:43
banned for years or that are now
56:43 – 56:44
being allowed, like all the PFAS
56:44 – 56:45
containing pesticides.
56:46 – 56:47
And there's no labeling.
56:47 – 56:48
There's no testing happening.
56:48 – 56:50
There's no you know, at least,
56:50 – 56:51
you know, we mentioned Europe,
56:51 – 56:52
but at least in Europe, you
56:52 – 56:54
know, France just did a big a
56:54 – 56:56
big test on all their products
56:56 – 56:58
and found that Actually, even a
56:58 – 56:59
lot of them are contaminated
56:59 – 57:00
with PFAS, but they're testing
57:00 – 57:02
it. That's why we're not even
57:02 – 57:03
really doing that.
57:04 – 57:04
And I think a lot of people
57:04 – 57:05
know.
57:06 – 57:09
And here's something that
57:09 – 57:11
we should all be thinking about
57:11 – 57:12
as farmers. We started this
57:12 – 57:13
early in this conversation, you
57:13 – 57:16
spoke about how there is often
57:17 – 57:17
the need,
57:18 – 57:19
perceived or real, to have
57:19 – 57:21
herbicides and fungicides and
57:21 – 57:22
tools to facilitate a
57:22 – 57:23
transition.
57:24 – 57:25
But when you look at
57:25 – 57:26
the
57:27 – 57:28
the farming community,
57:29 – 57:31
and the farming community is
57:31 – 57:33
delighted about their reaction,
57:33 – 57:34
their response to these new
57:34 – 57:36
patents. being approved is
57:36 – 57:37
delight.
57:36 – 57:38
They're like, yes, finally,
57:38 – 57:39
we have this.
57:40 – 57:42
There was this recent social
57:42 – 57:43
media phenomena,
57:43 – 57:45
it's still ongoing, but to a
57:45 – 57:46
greatly reduced degree,
57:46 – 57:47
where
57:49 – 57:50
There was all of this outrage
57:50 – 57:52
being expressed from tenants
57:52 – 57:55
against landlords and against,
57:55 – 57:56
and it was being labeled as
57:56 – 57:58
being against capitalism and
57:58 – 57:59
against landlords and against,
57:59 – 58:01
the system was rigged and on and
58:01 – 58:01
on the system goes.
58:02 – 58:03
And a large part of that was
58:03 – 58:05
stimulated by all of these
58:05 – 58:07
social media ads from landlords
58:07 – 58:09
talking about, hey, the tenants
58:09 – 58:10
pay my rent, I'm making all this
58:10 – 58:11
money, I sit at home and do
58:11 – 58:12
nothing, I make all this cash.
58:13 – 58:15
People were outraged by that
58:15 – 58:16
justifiably to some degree.
58:18 – 58:19
And then
58:19 – 58:22
we get the introduction of new
58:22 – 58:23
pesticides,
58:23 – 58:25
which are known to cause harm to
58:26 – 58:27
some degree.
58:27 – 58:28
And stay in the soil.
58:29 – 58:30
And stay in the soil forever.
58:31 – 58:32
Yeah.
58:31 – 58:33
And the farmer's response is a
58:33 – 58:35
response of enthusiasm and
58:35 – 58:35
delight.
58:36 – 58:36
Yeah. Oh, thank goodness.
58:37 – 58:38
I can finally get rid of this.
58:38 – 58:39
Yeah.
58:39 – 58:41
And consumers look at that and
58:41 – 58:43
say, you really don't care about
58:43 – 58:44
me, do you?
58:45 – 58:46
You really don't care.
58:47 – 58:47
So
58:48 – 58:49
the reality is we have to
58:49 – 58:51
acknowledge and we have to admit
58:51 – 58:52
that
58:52 – 58:54
the, we do not have, the
58:54 – 58:55
agricultural community does not
58:55 – 58:57
have the moral high ground on
58:57 – 58:57
some of these issues.
58:58 – 59:00
They perceive it as it is the
59:00 – 59:01
moral high ground in their own
59:01 – 59:02
personal best interest.
59:02 – 59:03
And they perceive that the
59:03 – 59:05
system has forced them into this
59:05 – 59:05
position for
59:07 – 59:08
which an argument and a case can
59:08 – 59:09
be made in part,
59:10 – 59:11
but in
59:11 – 59:14
part, but also this,
59:14 – 59:16
I think we have to acknowledge
59:16 – 59:18
and face the reality that in the
59:18 – 59:18
fullness of time,
59:19 – 59:21
give it a decade, two, five, I
59:21 – 59:22
don't know how long it's going
59:22 – 59:23
to take, but in the fullness of
59:23 – 59:24
time,
59:25 – 59:26
we do not have there will come a
59:26 – 59:29
recognition that we do not have
59:29 – 59:30
have not had them moral high
59:30 – 59:32
ground. And that to some degree,
59:32 – 59:34
we, we accepted this, we, we
59:34 – 59:36
embraced it. And therefore,
59:36 – 59:37
to some level, there is a
59:37 – 59:38
certain level of guilt by
59:38 – 59:39
association.
59:40 – 59:42
And it's still wild to me, like
59:42 – 59:43
you meant, you touched on this
59:43 – 59:44
earlier as well, but the health
59:44 – 59:47
implications of a lot of these,
59:47 – 59:48
these chemicals
59:49 – 59:50
for the farmers themselves, not
59:50 – 59:51
even just not even for the
59:51 – 59:52
consumers,
59:52 – 59:54
but for the farmers themselves.
59:54 – 59:55
And we see this like in our home
59:55 – 59:57
community in Minnesota,
59:58 – 59:59
the cancer rate, the Parkinson's
59:59 – 1:00:00
rates,
1:00:00 – 1:00:01
I mean,
1:00:01 – 1:00:02
through the roof, especially
1:00:02 – 1:00:04
when you look at it relative to
1:00:04 – 1:00:06
a rural to to an urban area.
1:00:08 – 1:00:10
And I don't know how if
1:00:11 – 1:00:12
it's not if it doesn't
1:00:13 – 1:00:15
impact them enough to care when
1:00:15 – 1:00:17
it's their own families, their
1:00:17 – 1:00:18
own health.
1:00:18 – 1:00:19
I don't know.
1:00:21 – 1:00:22
how to communicate that.
1:00:23 – 1:00:24
It's like, I don't know how to
1:00:24 – 1:00:26
get people to care about how
1:00:26 – 1:00:28
this is impacting their own
1:00:28 – 1:00:29
health and other people's health
1:00:30 – 1:00:31
if they don't even get it when
1:00:31 – 1:00:32
they see it in their own
1:00:32 – 1:00:33
communities and their own
1:00:33 – 1:00:34
families.
1:00:34 – 1:00:36
I don't know. And it's something
1:00:36 – 1:00:37
that I struggle with
1:00:38 – 1:00:38
as well.
1:00:39 – 1:00:40
How much of that do you think is
1:00:40 – 1:00:41
ignorance?
1:00:43 – 1:00:44
We touched on it earlier, but I
1:00:44 – 1:00:45
do think there's,
1:00:45 – 1:00:47
and I hate to say ignorance,
1:00:49 – 1:00:50
but I think there is an
1:00:50 – 1:00:51
education issue,
1:00:52 – 1:00:54
certainly in rural areas.
1:00:54 – 1:00:56
I think there's a lack of
1:00:56 – 1:00:57
funding.
1:00:58 – 1:00:59
There's a lot in a cultural
1:00:59 – 1:01:00
issue.
1:01:00 – 1:01:02
But I do think that there is a
1:01:02 – 1:01:03
lack of understanding of how
1:01:03 – 1:01:04
these things
1:01:05 – 1:01:06
impact them. But then I look at
1:01:06 – 1:01:07
it and I said, well, there's all
1:01:07 – 1:01:08
these studies. There's all these
1:01:08 – 1:01:09
news reports. But then I'm
1:01:09 – 1:01:11
looking at it from a biased eye.
1:01:11 – 1:01:12
I know how to interpret.
1:01:12 – 1:01:14
I know how to interpret a study.
1:01:14 – 1:01:15
I know how to read a study.
1:01:15 – 1:01:17
A lot of people don't.
1:01:18 – 1:01:19
But you'd have to think that
1:01:19 – 1:01:20
when they're seeing it in their
1:01:20 – 1:01:21
own community,
1:01:22 – 1:01:23
that it would trigger something
1:01:23 – 1:01:25
like, OK, maybe there's a lack
1:01:25 – 1:01:25
of funding. that we're doing
1:01:25 – 1:01:28
here that's causing this to
1:01:28 – 1:01:29
happen. I struggle with it a
1:01:29 – 1:01:31
lot. I think there's a big
1:01:31 – 1:01:34
cultural ingrained frame
1:01:34 – 1:01:35
of mind,
1:01:36 – 1:01:38
and that even if a farmer is
1:01:38 – 1:01:39
personally feeling like, okay,
1:01:40 – 1:01:41
maybe I'm starting to question
1:01:41 – 1:01:42
this,
1:01:42 – 1:01:43
if everybody around them
1:01:44 – 1:01:46
Is still in that groupthink
1:01:46 – 1:01:48
mindset of like, no, this is
1:01:48 – 1:01:48
fine. This is the way we've
1:01:48 – 1:01:49
always done it.
1:01:49 – 1:01:51
It's really hard to be the one
1:01:51 – 1:01:52
to
1:01:53 – 1:01:54
break out of that.
1:01:55 – 1:01:56
I think there's also an aspect
1:01:56 – 1:01:57
of,
1:01:58 – 1:01:59
I'm not quite sure how to
1:01:59 – 1:02:01
articulate this well, but there
1:02:01 – 1:02:03
is an aspect of an
1:02:04 – 1:02:05
adversarial culture.
1:02:05 – 1:02:07
And the adversarial culture is
1:02:07 – 1:02:09
I'm always, as a farming
1:02:09 – 1:02:10
community, we are always being
1:02:10 – 1:02:11
attacked.
1:02:10 – 1:02:12
We always have to push back.
1:02:12 – 1:02:13
We have to defend ourselves
1:02:13 – 1:02:15
against consumers, against the
1:02:15 – 1:02:16
government, against,
1:02:17 – 1:02:19
against, like there is the
1:02:19 – 1:02:20
respect, we are constantly being
1:02:20 – 1:02:21
pressured. We constantly have to
1:02:21 – 1:02:22
be on the defensive.
1:02:23 – 1:02:26
And that mechanism, that culture
1:02:26 – 1:02:27
of defensiveness
1:02:27 – 1:02:30
moves to a culture of
1:02:30 – 1:02:32
dismissiveness of anything that
1:02:32 – 1:02:34
is against what we are doing.
1:02:35 – 1:02:37
Yeah. They kind of fuel each
1:02:37 – 1:02:37
other.
1:02:38 – 1:02:38
Yeah.
1:02:40 – 1:02:41
Anyway,
1:02:40 – 1:02:42
I had no expectation of getting
1:02:42 – 1:02:43
into this conversation, but I
1:02:43 – 1:02:44
think it's an important one.
1:02:44 – 1:02:46
It is an important one, and it's
1:02:46 – 1:02:47
one that I think a lot of people
1:02:47 – 1:02:48
are wondering. It's something
1:02:48 – 1:02:51
that I hear every day in like
1:02:51 – 1:02:52
talking about things like
1:02:52 – 1:02:53
tariffs, talking about things
1:02:53 – 1:02:54
like the trade wars, talking
1:02:54 – 1:02:55
about the grain prices, talking
1:02:55 – 1:02:58
about now fertilizer costs, now
1:02:58 – 1:03:01
gas prices, how all of that is
1:03:01 – 1:03:02
going to impact farmers when
1:03:02 – 1:03:03
they're already heading into a
1:03:03 – 1:03:04
season where they've been hit
1:03:04 – 1:03:06
once and now they're getting hit
1:03:06 – 1:03:08
probably significantly more.
1:03:09 – 1:03:11
And having this conversation
1:03:11 – 1:03:12
where I'm going between, I feel
1:03:12 – 1:03:14
like the goal between sometimes
1:03:14 – 1:03:15
of like, here's the farming,
1:03:16 – 1:03:17
here's why, here's what farmers
1:03:17 – 1:03:19
are doing, here's what's
1:03:19 – 1:03:20
happening on the farm.
1:03:20 – 1:03:21
market. And consumers are
1:03:21 – 1:03:23
sitting here like, why are they
1:03:23 – 1:03:24
supporting? Why are they in
1:03:24 – 1:03:25
favor of this? Because it seems
1:03:25 – 1:03:27
like this is not in their
1:03:27 – 1:03:28
benefit. This is not in their
1:03:28 – 1:03:29
favor.
1:03:29 – 1:03:31
And it's really an interesting
1:03:31 – 1:03:32
conversation. It's something
1:03:32 – 1:03:33
that I
1:03:33 – 1:03:35
constantly am trying to
1:03:35 – 1:03:37
psychoanalyze what's happening.
1:03:39 – 1:03:41
And I haven't been able to, I
1:03:41 – 1:03:42
really haven't been able to come
1:03:42 – 1:03:43
up with an answer yet and no one
1:03:43 – 1:03:44
can give me an answer.
1:03:45 – 1:03:45
You know, even when I have off
1:03:45 – 1:03:46
the table, like off the record
1:03:46 – 1:03:48
conversations with people and
1:03:48 – 1:03:51
I'm like, can you tell me what
1:03:51 – 1:03:52
your thought process is here?
1:03:52 – 1:03:54
And I still don't really get an
1:03:54 – 1:03:56
answer, which, which makes me
1:03:56 – 1:03:57
think that there's something
1:03:57 – 1:03:57
that,
1:03:58 – 1:03:59
you know, that it is like a
1:03:59 – 1:04:01
defensiveness or something that
1:04:01 – 1:04:02
they maybe do know.
1:04:02 – 1:04:03
Maybe they do know and they do
1:04:03 – 1:04:05
recognize it, but there is a
1:04:05 – 1:04:07
pride issue and an ego issue of,
1:04:08 – 1:04:09
OK, yeah, I'm seeing this and I
1:04:09 – 1:04:10
know that this is happening.
1:04:10 – 1:04:11
But if I
1:04:12 – 1:04:14
admit it and I say, OK, yeah,
1:04:14 – 1:04:15
this is not going well,
1:04:16 – 1:04:17
I look weaker, you know, and
1:04:17 – 1:04:21
that is certainly a mindset of
1:04:21 – 1:04:22
like, I got to be strong.
1:04:22 – 1:04:24
I got to be you know, I can't
1:04:24 – 1:04:25
rely on anyone.
1:04:25 – 1:04:27
I need to. That's just that's a
1:04:27 – 1:04:28
cult. That's for sure a cultural
1:04:28 – 1:04:29
thing in farming.
1:04:30 – 1:04:31
And maybe that's maybe that is
1:04:31 – 1:04:32
what it is. I don't know.
1:04:35 – 1:04:35
Well,
1:04:37 – 1:04:39
many people don't realize many
1:04:39 – 1:04:40
people are familiar with the
1:04:40 – 1:04:42
language of of
1:04:42 – 1:04:43
marketing.
1:04:44 – 1:04:46
of when there's Everett Rogers
1:04:46 – 1:04:47
research on the diffusion of
1:04:47 – 1:04:49
innovations of how
1:04:50 – 1:04:51
new technologies are adopted.
1:04:51 – 1:04:53
And if you're not familiar with
1:04:53 – 1:04:54
the name or that terminology,
1:04:54 – 1:04:55
they're often familiar with this
1:04:55 – 1:04:57
curve that's referred to as the
1:04:57 – 1:04:58
innovators, the early adopters,
1:04:58 – 1:04:59
the early majority, late
1:04:59 – 1:05:00
majority and the laggards.
1:05:01 – 1:05:01
And what many people don't
1:05:01 – 1:05:04
realize is that that original
1:05:04 – 1:05:06
foundation research was done on
1:05:06 – 1:05:07
farmers.
1:05:07 – 1:05:09
It was done in agriculture, yes.
1:05:09 – 1:05:11
It was specifically conducted on
1:05:11 – 1:05:12
the adoption of hybrid seed corn
1:05:12 – 1:05:15
by farmers in Iowa in the 1970s.
1:05:16 – 1:05:17
I have no idea.
1:05:17 – 1:05:18
Wow. Yeah, I
1:05:19 – 1:05:20
think it's a lot.
1:05:20 – 1:05:21
Yeah.
1:05:23 – 1:05:24
And it's,
1:05:24 – 1:05:26
it's, it's an academic book.
1:05:27 – 1:05:28
It's now that the work has
1:05:28 – 1:05:29
obviously evolved significantly
1:05:29 – 1:05:30
since that original research,
1:05:30 – 1:05:32
but it is still a fascinating
1:05:32 – 1:05:33
insight.
1:05:32 – 1:05:33
And you can still read the
1:05:33 – 1:05:34
original research.
1:05:34 – 1:05:35
It's a fascinating insight into
1:05:35 – 1:05:37
farmer psychology and decision
1:05:37 – 1:05:38
-making.
1:05:39 – 1:05:40
And.
1:05:41 – 1:05:42
Yeah, I'll just leave it there.
1:05:42 – 1:05:44
It's if anyone is interested in
1:05:44 – 1:05:45
that topic of the subconscious
1:05:45 – 1:05:47
decision making of the things
1:05:47 – 1:05:49
that we don't consciously think
1:05:49 – 1:05:50
about as a farming community.
1:05:51 – 1:05:53
It's, it's a rather revealing
1:05:53 – 1:05:54
mirror to hold up and look into.
1:05:56 – 1:05:57
Sometimes people don't want that
1:05:57 – 1:05:58
mirror. Sometimes people do.
1:05:59 – 1:06:00
Yeah.
1:06:01 – 1:06:02
So,
1:06:04 – 1:06:05
I've really enjoyed this
1:06:05 – 1:06:07
conversation. There's one more
1:06:07 – 1:06:08
piece that I was going to get
1:06:08 – 1:06:09
into before we got off on this
1:06:09 – 1:06:10
tangent.
1:06:13 – 1:06:15
Your growing
1:06:15 – 1:06:18
practices on your grain crops.
1:06:18 – 1:06:19
You spoke about reducing
1:06:20 – 1:06:21
herbicides or eliminating
1:06:21 – 1:06:23
herbicides and fungicides.
1:06:23 – 1:06:24
You spoke about some of the weed
1:06:24 – 1:06:25
pressure. I'm curious about the
1:06:25 – 1:06:27
disease outcomes that you've
1:06:27 – 1:06:29
had, but also with the dramatic
1:06:29 – 1:06:31
reductions that you made in
1:06:31 – 1:06:32
fertilizer applications.
1:06:34 – 1:06:35
What
1:06:35 – 1:06:37
You spoke about the things that
1:06:37 – 1:06:38
you're taking away.
1:06:38 – 1:06:39
You haven't spoken about the
1:06:39 – 1:06:40
things that you replace them
1:06:40 – 1:06:41
with.
1:06:42 – 1:06:43
Yes.
1:06:42 – 1:06:43
Which is probably,
1:06:43 – 1:06:45
especially at the beginning, and
1:06:45 – 1:06:47
this is something I always touch
1:06:47 – 1:06:47
on too, like with home
1:06:47 – 1:06:49
gardeners, because there's all
1:06:49 – 1:06:51
these recipes and like biochar
1:06:51 – 1:06:53
and compost teas and all this
1:06:53 – 1:06:54
stuff that you can get into.
1:06:54 – 1:06:55
But as
1:06:56 – 1:06:58
you go down the road, at least I
1:06:58 – 1:06:59
found in my own practice,
1:07:00 – 1:07:01
of regenerative principles, once
1:07:01 – 1:07:03
you've implemented them in your
1:07:03 – 1:07:04
cover cropping and your
1:07:04 – 1:07:05
mulching,
1:07:05 – 1:07:06
you don't have to be doing all
1:07:06 – 1:07:07
of that other stuff.
1:07:07 – 1:07:10
As long as you have what needs
1:07:10 – 1:07:12
to be creating this healthy
1:07:12 – 1:07:13
rhizosphere.
1:07:13 – 1:07:14
Now, of course, we're always
1:07:14 – 1:07:15
going to need some things.
1:07:15 – 1:07:15
There's always going to be
1:07:15 – 1:07:17
probably nitrogen and mineral
1:07:17 – 1:07:18
needs and that kind of stuff.
1:07:18 – 1:07:19
But it's
1:07:21 – 1:07:22
been interesting to see
1:07:23 – 1:07:24
how,
1:07:25 – 1:07:26
in the beginning,
1:07:27 – 1:07:28
I feel like
1:07:29 – 1:07:30
inoculating,
1:07:31 – 1:07:32
adding some of these, especially
1:07:32 – 1:07:34
the inoculant type stuff, has
1:07:34 – 1:07:36
really jump -started
1:07:38 – 1:07:40
the soil health, the ability to
1:07:40 – 1:07:42
reduce nitrogen, the ability to
1:07:42 – 1:07:43
reduce things. And I'm talking
1:07:43 – 1:07:44
about on my Colorado farm,
1:07:44 – 1:07:45
because obviously we've been
1:07:45 – 1:07:46
doing that longer here.
1:07:47 – 1:07:49
I inoculate every single seed
1:07:49 – 1:07:50
that goes out,
1:07:51 – 1:07:52
whether it's a tomato,
1:07:52 – 1:07:54
whether it's a zinnia,
1:07:55 – 1:07:57
cover crop seed always gets
1:07:57 – 1:07:58
inoculated.
1:07:58 – 1:07:59
The corn, soybeans,
1:08:00 – 1:08:01
every seed that I plant gets
1:08:01 – 1:08:02
inoculated.
1:08:02 – 1:08:04
That to me is like the lowest,
1:08:04 – 1:08:07
right, like the lowest fruit.
1:08:07 – 1:08:10
for getting that soil health up
1:08:10 – 1:08:11
and going, especially in the
1:08:11 – 1:08:12
first few years.
1:08:13 – 1:08:14
That's been one thing that we
1:08:14 – 1:08:16
really emphasized.
1:08:16 – 1:08:18
You have a question, John, I can
1:08:18 – 1:08:19
feel it.
1:08:19 – 1:08:20
I was about to ask, what
1:08:21 – 1:08:23
inoculants have you experimented
1:08:23 – 1:08:24
and tested with and what have
1:08:24 – 1:08:25
been the results that you've
1:08:25 – 1:08:26
observed?
1:08:27 – 1:08:29
So on our Colorado farm, we've
1:08:29 – 1:08:31
been doing BioCoat Gold.
1:08:32 – 1:08:33
we've been doing seed flare.
1:08:34 – 1:08:36
So seed flare,
1:08:37 – 1:08:38
interestingly, we planted, we
1:08:38 – 1:08:39
were planting the corn, and we
1:08:39 – 1:08:40
got to the end of the planting,
1:08:41 – 1:08:42
we'd upped the population a
1:08:42 – 1:08:43
little bit.
1:08:43 – 1:08:44
And so we ran out of corn for
1:08:44 – 1:08:47
the last trip, and had to run.
1:08:47 – 1:08:48
Thankfully, we're working with
1:08:48 – 1:08:49
Albert Lee's seed, who's
1:08:49 – 1:08:50
phenomenal, and they're close
1:08:50 – 1:08:51
by. So I was able to like run
1:08:51 – 1:08:52
down there and grab a bag of
1:08:52 – 1:08:53
seed, run back,
1:08:53 – 1:08:54
but we didn't have a chance to
1:08:54 – 1:08:55
inoculate it with seed flare.
1:08:56 – 1:08:58
Um, so came back, planted that
1:08:58 – 1:09:00
row and that row came up like
1:09:00 – 1:09:01
four days later.
1:09:02 – 1:09:06
I just thought it was funny, you
1:09:06 – 1:09:07
know,
1:09:06 – 1:09:08
because I think it's funny
1:09:08 – 1:09:09
because I, you know, as we're
1:09:09 – 1:09:10
applying all this stuff, our
1:09:10 – 1:09:12
former applicator was
1:09:13 – 1:09:13
like,
1:09:14 – 1:09:15
you know, I could tell there was
1:09:15 – 1:09:16
this thing, your sanity a little
1:09:16 – 1:09:17
bit.
1:09:17 – 1:09:18
Yeah. Like what is all this
1:09:18 – 1:09:19
stuff you're putting on?
1:09:21 – 1:09:23
And so that, that personally,
1:09:23 – 1:09:24
for me, that was a little bit
1:09:24 – 1:09:25
satisfying to see, but
1:09:26 – 1:09:27
Again, if there's nothing else
1:09:27 – 1:09:28
I'm going to encourage people to
1:09:28 – 1:09:30
do, and I always do, it's
1:09:30 – 1:09:30
inoculate your seed.
1:09:31 – 1:09:33
That's the first, biggest bang
1:09:33 – 1:09:34
for your buck. It's there when
1:09:34 – 1:09:35
the seed germinates.
1:09:35 – 1:09:36
All of that is there.
1:09:37 – 1:09:38
Then there's the other stuff
1:09:38 – 1:09:39
that we've been doing.
1:09:40 – 1:09:42
We've been using things like
1:09:42 – 1:09:43
MacroPak.
1:09:43 – 1:09:45
We did sap analysis testing on
1:09:45 – 1:09:46
the farm in Minnesota.
1:09:47 – 1:09:49
The sap analysis was
1:09:49 – 1:09:51
so interesting to me, both on a
1:09:52 – 1:09:54
doing it, cutting it, figuring
1:09:54 – 1:09:56
out which stage, which leaf I
1:09:56 – 1:09:57
should be using,
1:09:58 – 1:10:01
shipping it off, getting that
1:10:01 – 1:10:03
information, seeing it, and
1:10:03 – 1:10:03
being like, oh,
1:10:04 – 1:10:05
we did a control, of course.
1:10:05 – 1:10:06
So we did our field, and then we
1:10:06 – 1:10:07
did our neighbor's field, which
1:10:07 – 1:10:08
was conventional,
1:10:09 – 1:10:11
and still had full rates of
1:10:11 – 1:10:12
nitrogen.
1:10:12 – 1:10:13
What was the most interesting
1:10:13 – 1:10:14
number to me was how
1:10:15 – 1:10:16
much
1:10:16 – 1:10:18
nitrogen was in those leaves,
1:10:18 – 1:10:21
like way beyond what the plant
1:10:21 – 1:10:23
would be able to use.
1:10:24 – 1:10:26
And of course, I'm looking at
1:10:26 – 1:10:27
that from the perspective of
1:10:27 – 1:10:28
like from my home farm, I've
1:10:28 – 1:10:30
learned I don't over fertilize,
1:10:30 – 1:10:31
especially in the spring,
1:10:31 – 1:10:33
because then we get aphids or
1:10:33 – 1:10:35
any other number of problems.
1:10:36 – 1:10:36
And so I'm looking at this and
1:10:36 – 1:10:38
like, OK, we're spending a bunch
1:10:38 – 1:10:39
of money. We don't need to to be
1:10:39 – 1:10:41
fertilizing nitrogen when
1:10:41 – 1:10:43
clearly the tissue analysis is
1:10:43 – 1:10:44
showing this is more nitrogen
1:10:44 – 1:10:45
than this plant can even use.
1:10:46 – 1:10:48
So that was really interesting
1:10:48 – 1:10:49
to me and then the only thing we
1:10:49 – 1:10:52
use during the season is we did
1:10:52 – 1:10:53
drone application well we did a
1:10:53 – 1:10:54
in for a plant.
1:10:54 – 1:10:56
We didn't infer I think of a
1:10:56 – 1:10:59
macro pack and some some micros
1:10:59 – 1:11:01
so. think there was boron.
1:11:02 – 1:11:03
Our app
1:11:04 – 1:11:06
analysis showed that we needed
1:11:06 – 1:11:08
to add some manganese, like
1:11:08 – 1:11:09
right around fill stage.
1:11:09 – 1:11:10
So we did that.
1:11:10 – 1:11:12
And then beyond that,
1:11:12 – 1:11:14
I think it was only macro pack
1:11:14 – 1:11:15
that we really applied.
1:11:16 – 1:11:18
And so we have a bunch of jugs
1:11:18 – 1:11:19
still sitting there, because
1:11:19 – 1:11:21
it's stuff I didn't even need.
1:11:23 – 1:11:24
But based on based on what
1:11:24 – 1:11:26
you're describing, I'm curious
1:11:26 – 1:11:27
about your economics, because it
1:11:27 – 1:11:29
sounds like your total budget
1:11:29 – 1:11:29
was a fraction.
1:11:30 – 1:11:32
So unfortunately, where we got
1:11:32 – 1:11:34
hit was the applicator, the
1:11:34 – 1:11:35
applicator rate, because
1:11:35 – 1:11:38
obviously, we're doing 20 acres,
1:11:38 – 1:11:39
it doesn't make sense for me to
1:11:39 – 1:11:40
get a tractor,
1:11:40 – 1:11:43
and to start farming it myself.
1:11:43 – 1:11:44
So we're hiring it out.
1:11:45 – 1:11:47
So where we get hit is the
1:11:47 – 1:11:47
applicator rates,
1:11:48 – 1:11:51
paying someone to plant things,
1:11:51 – 1:11:52
paying someone to drone.
1:11:53 – 1:11:54
You know, once you can get,
1:11:55 – 1:11:55
and of course, that's its own
1:11:55 – 1:11:56
issue, right?
1:11:56 – 1:11:57
It's the cost of like,
1:11:57 – 1:11:58
Right.
1:11:58 – 1:12:00
Implements and repairs and all
1:12:00 – 1:12:01
that.
1:12:01 – 1:12:01
And I know they have to cover
1:12:01 – 1:12:02
all that. I get it.
1:12:03 – 1:12:04
But but interestingly,
1:12:04 – 1:12:05
depending on when you sell the
1:12:05 – 1:12:07
corn, of course, we haven't sold
1:12:07 – 1:12:08
it yet.
1:12:08 – 1:12:10
Even considering that we took a
1:12:10 – 1:12:10
yield hit,
1:12:11 – 1:12:13
it was maybe a couple of dollars
1:12:13 – 1:12:15
difference per acre.
1:12:15 – 1:12:17
Even even considering the yield
1:12:17 – 1:12:17
hit that we took,
1:12:19 – 1:12:20
I I
1:12:21 – 1:12:22
would not change.
1:12:21 – 1:12:22
Let me just put it this way.
1:12:22 – 1:12:24
I haven't run the final numbers
1:12:24 – 1:12:26
without without the applicator
1:12:26 – 1:12:28
rates, which is how I'd have to
1:12:28 – 1:12:29
side by side it.
1:12:30 – 1:12:31
I would not change anything that
1:12:31 – 1:12:32
we did last year
1:12:33 – 1:12:35
because the nitrogen costs last
1:12:35 – 1:12:37
year was so high that by the
1:12:37 – 1:12:39
time if we had applied the full
1:12:39 – 1:12:40
rate,
1:12:40 – 1:12:41
it would have been the
1:12:41 – 1:12:42
difference between being
1:12:42 – 1:12:43
profitable and not being
1:12:43 – 1:12:45
profitable in that corn.
1:12:46 – 1:12:47
So I
1:12:47 – 1:12:49
think that math for many growers
1:12:49 – 1:12:51
that this year is changing to an
1:12:51 – 1:12:52
even greater degree, obviously,
1:12:52 – 1:12:53
with what's just happened here
1:12:54 – 1:12:55
in the last couple of years.
1:12:55 – 1:12:55
weeks.
1:12:56 – 1:12:57
I think this year is one of
1:12:57 – 1:12:58
those years where it's going to
1:12:58 – 1:12:59
be, yeah, I mean, everyone's
1:12:59 – 1:13:00
going to have to make that call.
1:13:01 – 1:13:01
If
1:13:02 – 1:13:03
you don't have animals on your
1:13:03 – 1:13:05
farm that you can close the gap
1:13:05 – 1:13:07
with, yeah, I think a lot of
1:13:07 – 1:13:08
people are going to be looking
1:13:08 – 1:13:09
at,
1:13:09 – 1:13:10
how do I reduce that?
1:13:10 – 1:13:12
And of course, if you're only
1:13:12 – 1:13:14
looking at it though as a,
1:13:15 – 1:13:17
I have to get my nitrogen in,
1:13:17 – 1:13:18
but you're not looking at it
1:13:18 – 1:13:19
from
1:13:19 – 1:13:20
I have to get the soil profile,
1:13:21 – 1:13:22
you know, mineralizing the
1:13:22 – 1:13:23
existing nutrients.
1:13:23 – 1:13:24
And if you're not getting the
1:13:24 – 1:13:25
organic matter in the soil,
1:13:26 – 1:13:27
so there's it's a frame of mind.
1:13:27 – 1:13:28
It's still a frame of mind that
1:13:28 – 1:13:29
has to be navigated.
1:13:30 – 1:13:31
I think people will cut
1:13:31 – 1:13:31
nitrogen,
1:13:31 – 1:13:32
but if you're just cutting
1:13:32 – 1:13:34
nitrogen and you're not
1:13:34 – 1:13:35
implementing other things this
1:13:35 – 1:13:36
year, to me,
1:13:37 – 1:13:38
it's like if there's going to be
1:13:38 – 1:13:39
a year, you're going to start
1:13:39 – 1:13:40
doing inoculation and you're
1:13:40 – 1:13:41
going to start
1:13:42 – 1:13:44
changing your practices.
1:13:44 – 1:13:46
This is a great year to do it.
1:13:47 – 1:13:48
There's lots of economic
1:13:48 – 1:13:50
incentives that align to create
1:13:50 – 1:13:50
that.
1:13:50 – 1:13:52
You know, this reminds me of a
1:13:52 – 1:13:52
conversation, one of the early
1:13:52 – 1:13:54
conversations I had here on the
1:13:54 – 1:13:55
podcast with Gary Zimmer.
1:13:56 – 1:13:57
I asked him a question,
1:13:57 – 1:13:58
something along the lines of if
1:13:58 – 1:14:00
you wanted to facilitate mass
1:14:00 – 1:14:01
adoption and you had a magic
1:14:01 – 1:14:02
wand that you could wave to
1:14:02 – 1:14:03
change one thing, what would it
1:14:03 – 1:14:05
be? And his answer was, I would
1:14:05 – 1:14:06
make nitrogen really expensive.
1:14:07 – 1:14:08
There you go.
1:14:12 – 1:14:13
It is. I mean, really, because
1:14:13 – 1:14:15
once that's, that's what it is,
1:14:15 – 1:14:16
is people are going to continue
1:14:16 – 1:14:17
doing the same thing if they're
1:14:17 – 1:14:18
getting yields.
1:14:18 – 1:14:19
Yeah, of course, it doesn't make
1:14:19 – 1:14:21
sense to be yielding like 240
1:14:21 – 1:14:22
bushels an acre with everybody's
1:14:22 – 1:14:23
yielding that much.
1:14:23 – 1:14:24
Then we're just driving the
1:14:24 – 1:14:26
price down anyway, because
1:14:26 – 1:14:27
there's such a glut of corn on
1:14:27 – 1:14:28
the market, which is kind of,
1:14:28 – 1:14:29
you know, part of what we saw
1:14:29 – 1:14:30
this year,
1:14:30 – 1:14:32
if everybody would start scaling
1:14:32 – 1:14:34
down their inputs,
1:14:35 – 1:14:36
and yeah, take a bit of a yield
1:14:36 – 1:14:38
hit, but the soil health profile
1:14:38 – 1:14:39
is better,
1:14:39 – 1:14:40
and the input cost is lower.
1:14:43 – 1:14:44
everybody's price will go up
1:14:44 – 1:14:45
because, yeah, there will be
1:14:45 – 1:14:46
less corn on the market too,
1:14:47 – 1:14:48
which, you know, right now we
1:14:48 – 1:14:49
have a glut. We have too much.
1:14:49 – 1:14:50
we have too much, which is
1:14:50 – 1:14:51
driving that, you know, yeah,
1:14:51 – 1:14:52
from a marketing perspective,
1:14:52 – 1:14:54
from a business perspective,
1:14:54 – 1:14:55
yeah,
1:14:54 – 1:14:56
we all know the equation, right?
1:14:57 – 1:14:58
Well,
1:14:59 – 1:15:00
getting farmers all aligned
1:15:00 – 1:15:01
collectively to produce less has
1:15:01 – 1:15:03
never been successful and is
1:15:03 – 1:15:04
unlikely to ever be in the near
1:15:04 – 1:15:05
term future.
1:15:05 – 1:15:07
No, but if we can say, hey, look
1:15:07 – 1:15:09
how many passes you're doing on
1:15:09 – 1:15:10
your field, right?
1:15:10 – 1:15:11
with gas prices being what they
1:15:11 – 1:15:14
are and, and who knows going
1:15:14 – 1:15:16
into summer and fertilizer
1:15:16 – 1:15:17
prices being what they are.
1:15:17 – 1:15:18
Yeah. I mean,
1:15:18 – 1:15:19
you're going to do it.
1:15:19 – 1:15:20
If you've been thinking about
1:15:20 – 1:15:21
it, it seems like
1:15:22 – 1:15:23
this year is a no brainer.
1:15:24 – 1:15:25
Yeah.
1:15:25 – 1:15:26
Well, Brie, this has been a very
1:15:26 – 1:15:27
enjoyable conversation.
1:15:28 – 1:15:28
Thank you for all the
1:15:28 – 1:15:30
provocative thoughts that you've
1:15:30 – 1:15:30
brought and shared.
1:15:30 – 1:15:32
I've really enjoyed it and I
1:15:32 – 1:15:33
look forward to more
1:15:32 – 1:15:33
conversations with you in the
1:15:33 – 1:15:35
future. Thank you very much for
1:15:35 – 1:15:35
being here and for all your
1:15:35 – 1:15:36
work.
1:15:36 – 1:15:37
Thanks for having me.
1:15:37 – 1:15:39
The team at AEA and I are
1:15:39 – 1:15:41
dedicated to bringing this show
1:15:41 – 1:15:42
to you because we believe that
1:15:42 – 1:15:44
knowledge and information is the
1:15:44 – 1:15:46
foundation of successful
1:15:46 – 1:15:47
regenerative systems.
1:15:48 – 1:15:50
At AEA, we believe that growing
1:15:50 – 1:15:51
better quality food and making
1:15:51 – 1:15:53
more money from your crops is
1:15:53 – 1:15:54
possible.
1:15:54 – 1:15:55
And since 2006,
1:15:55 – 1:15:56
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1:15:56 – 1:15:58
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1:15:58 – 1:15:59
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1:15:59 – 1:16:01
At AEA, we don't guess.
1:16:01 – 1:16:02
We test. We analyze.
1:16:03 – 1:16:04
And we provide recommendations
1:16:04 – 1:16:06
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1:16:07 – 1:16:08
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1:16:08 – 1:16:09
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1:16:09 – 1:16:11
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1:16:11 – 1:16:12
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1:16:12 – 1:16:13
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1:16:14 – 1:16:15
If you are a professional grower
1:16:15 – 1:16:17
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1:16:17 – 1:16:18
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1:16:18 – 1:16:19
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1:16:19 – 1:16:21
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1:16:21 – 1:16:22
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1:16:22 – 1:16:24
visit advancingecoag .com and
1:16:24 – 1:16:26
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