Jeremy Brown is an organic farmer and the founder of Broadview Agriculture in the Southern Plains of West Texas. Managing nearly 4,000 acres of certified organic land, Jeremy is a leader in adapting regenerative practices to “brittle,” low-rainfall environments. He brings a pragmatic approach to the movement by aligning his production with the natural limitations of his ecosystem, prioritizing soil biology and local economic health over the high-input “rat race” of conventional technology.
In this episode, John and Jeremy discuss:
Jeremy’s transition from the “Roundup Ready” era back to organic farming to discover what truly constitutes “good soil.”
How high yields in desert-like environments creates a financial “rat race” that ignores the farm’s natural context.
30-year plateau in dryland cotton yields despite massive advancements in chemical and seed technology.
How Jeremy uses a weather-responsive approach to interseed multi-species cover crops.
The integration of stocker cattle to offset the cost of cover crop seeds while providing natural fertilizer and biological stimulation.
Why Jeremy chooses to invest in local labor and home-raised seeds rather than high-tech machinery and expensive technology fees.
Additional Resources:
To learn more about Green Cover, please visit: https://greencover.com/
To learn more and to purchase BioCoat Gold, please visit: https://advancingecoag.com/product/biocoat-gold-2/
To learn more about Allan Savory and the Savory Institute, please visit: https://savory.global/
To learn more about Gabe Brown, please visit: https://brownsranch.us/
About John Kempf
John Kempf is the founder of Advancing Eco Agriculture (AEA). A top expert in biological and regenerative farming, John founded AEA in 2006 to help fellow farmers by providing the education, tools, and strategies that will have a global effect on the food supply and those who grow it.
Through intense study and the knowledge gleaned from many industry leaders, John is building a comprehensive systems-based approach to plant nutrition – a system solidly based on the sciences of plant physiology, mineral nutrition, and soil microbiology.
Support For This Show & Helping You Grow
Since 2006, AEA has been on a mission to help growers become more resilient, efficient, and profitable with regenerative agriculture.
AEA works directly with growers to apply its unique line of liquid mineral crop nutrition products and biological inoculants. Informed by cutting-edge plant and soil data-gathering techniques, AEA’s science-based programs empower farm operations to meet the crop quality markers that matter the most.
AEA has created real and lasting change on millions of acres with its products and data-driven services by working hand-in-hand with growers to produce healthier soil, stronger crops, and higher profits.
Beyond working on the ground with growers, AEA leads in regenerative agriculture media and education, producing and distributing the popular and highly-regarded Regenerative Agriculture Podcast, inspiring webinars, and other educational content that serve as go-to resources for growers worldwide.
Learn more about AEA’s regenerative programs and products: https://www.advancingecoag.com
Podcast Transcript
0:02 – 0:04
Hi friends, this is John.
0:04 – 0:05
Welcome back to the Region of
0:05 – 0:06
Agriculture podcast.
0:07 – 0:08
You know the drill.
0:08 – 0:09
We have all kinds of fun
0:09 – 0:10
conversations here.
0:11 – 0:12
Today we,
0:12 – 0:14
I'm being joined by a guest and
0:14 – 0:15
someone who I consider
0:16 – 0:17
friend and acquaintance,
0:18 – 0:20
Jeremy Brown from Texas.
0:20 – 0:21
Dry land,
0:21 – 0:23
difficult areas of Texas.
0:24 – 0:25
At least that's the way he
0:25 – 0:26
described them to me when I
0:26 – 0:27
first met him.
0:27 – 0:29
So Jeremy, thank you for being
0:29 – 0:30
here.
0:32 – 0:34
What prompted us having this
0:34 – 0:34
conversation?
0:35 – 0:37
I was in Texas just recently
0:37 – 0:40
speaking with a group of cotton
0:40 – 0:41
growers. Jeremy was there and
0:41 – 0:42
was on the panel as well.
0:43 – 0:45
And I was really intrigued by
0:45 – 0:47
your comments about
0:47 – 0:49
not farming outside or not
0:49 – 0:51
trying to farm beyond your
0:51 – 0:52
context.
0:52 – 0:55
And I'd love to just kick things
0:55 – 0:57
off and dive right into the
0:57 – 0:58
weeds on that. Tell us a little
0:58 – 0:59
bit about
0:59 – 1:00
your operation,
1:01 – 1:02
the context, the environment
1:02 – 1:04
that you're farming in, and how
1:04 – 1:05
that has evolved over the years
1:05 – 1:06
and some of the reasons why.
1:08 – 1:08
Okay.
1:09 – 1:09
Yeah, well, first,
1:10 – 1:11
John, it's a privilege and an
1:11 – 1:13
honor to be a part of your
1:13 – 1:13
podcast.
1:14 – 1:16
I've enjoyed listening to this
1:16 – 1:17
for many years.
1:17 – 1:18
I can't tell you how many times
1:18 – 1:20
I've sat in a pickup listening
1:20 – 1:20
to
1:21 – 1:22
people that you've interviewed,
1:23 – 1:26
from Gabe Brown to Dr.
1:26 – 1:28
Wyatt at Rutgers.
1:28 – 1:30
I just, I mean, the list goes on
1:30 – 1:32
and on and it's been helped me
1:32 – 1:34
learn in my regenerative journey
1:34 – 1:38
as I've been on this journey for
1:38 – 1:38
a
1:39 – 1:40
while now.
1:40 – 1:43
Yeah, so we farm in the Southern
1:43 – 1:45
Plains. So the very,
1:46 – 1:47
very far end of the Plains, I
1:47 – 1:49
guess, if you're looking at a
1:49 – 1:50
map,
1:50 – 1:53
we are predominantly a cotton
1:53 – 1:55
farm. My personal operation is
1:55 – 1:57
predominantly an organic cotton
1:57 – 1:58
farm.
1:59 – 2:00
It's been a journey.
2:00 – 2:01
as I said.
2:02 – 2:04
I grew up farming with my dad,
2:04 – 2:04
my granddad,
2:05 – 2:06
but in the late 90s, early
2:06 – 2:09
2000s, granddad retired, my dad
2:09 – 2:10
quit farming.
2:11 – 2:13
And so I was away from the farm
2:13 – 2:16
for about 10 years because the
2:16 – 2:17
only way I could farm was with
2:17 – 2:19
the help of my father and he was
2:19 – 2:20
no longer doing it.
2:20 – 2:21
And so the opportunity for me to
2:21 – 2:23
farm, that door was closed.
2:23 – 2:26
Uh, and so the reason why I like
2:26 – 2:27
to tell that story so that
2:27 – 2:29
people kind of have an idea of
2:29 – 2:30
how I got to where I am,
2:31 – 2:33
but, uh, about 10, I was away
2:33 – 2:34
from it for about 10 years and
2:34 – 2:35
production agriculture
2:35 – 2:37
drastically changed in those 10
2:37 – 2:39
years. You know, we, we now had
2:39 – 2:40
roundup ready technology.
2:41 – 2:43
Uh, we understood more about,
2:43 – 2:43
uh,
2:44 – 2:45
synthetic fertilizer than when
2:45 – 2:48
to apply them. And so with the
2:48 – 2:49
help of my father -in -law, he
2:49 – 2:51
saw my love and passion for
2:51 – 2:52
farming in 2008.
2:52 – 2:53
He helped me kind of get
2:53 – 2:54
started.
2:54 – 2:57
And then I did that part -time
2:57 – 2:58
for a year.
2:59 – 3:02
And then the end of 2009, going
3:02 – 3:05
into 2010, I went into farming
3:05 – 3:05
full -time.
3:06 – 3:07
And like I said, things had
3:07 – 3:08
really changed.
3:08 – 3:09
I mean, I grew up farming with
3:09 – 3:11
my dad, but I mean, now, you
3:11 – 3:12
know, we had a herbicide that we
3:12 – 3:13
thought fixed all of our
3:13 – 3:14
problems.
3:14 – 3:17
We also had cotton that was bred
3:17 – 3:18
to, you know,
3:19 – 3:21
not deal with boll worms and
3:21 – 3:22
other things. And so,
3:22 – 3:25
It seemed like it was real easy,
3:25 – 3:27
I thought. And so
3:27 – 3:28
that was 2010.
3:28 – 3:29
But in 2013,
3:30 – 3:32
I really started this journey
3:32 – 3:34
that was, for me,
3:34 – 3:35
it was my faith.
3:36 – 3:37
I'm a Christian.
3:37 – 3:41
I submit to God and his word.
3:42 – 3:45
And when I was reading my Bible
3:45 – 3:46
one day, it was just a simple,
3:47 – 3:48
you know, daily Bible reading,
3:48 – 3:49
nothing spectacular.
3:50 – 3:51
I'd read this verse a hundred
3:51 – 3:52
times probably.
3:53 – 3:54
But in the Gospels, you know,
3:54 – 3:56
Jesus talks about
3:56 – 3:58
the parable of the seed and the
3:58 – 3:59
sower.
3:59 – 4:00
And I know that he goes on and
4:00 – 4:01
explains it and
4:02 – 4:03
that there's spiritual
4:04 – 4:07
things to
4:07 – 4:08
the parable.
4:08 – 4:10
But, you know, he says something
4:10 – 4:11
that just kind of caught me off
4:11 – 4:12
guard. And it said, you know,
4:13 – 4:14
and some seed fell on good soil
4:14 – 4:16
and the reaped harvest a
4:16 – 4:16
hundredfold.
4:17 – 4:18
And I just had this thought
4:18 – 4:20
where I felt like God was asking
4:20 – 4:21
me the question, what does it
4:21 – 4:22
mean to have good soil?
4:23 – 4:24
And I didn't have an answer.
4:25 – 4:26
All I knew is my degree's in
4:26 – 4:27
agriculture.
4:27 – 4:29
I got a degree from Texas Tech
4:29 – 4:30
University
4:30 – 4:31
in agriculture.
4:32 – 4:34
And all I knew is what I learned
4:34 – 4:35
in school. All I knew is what I
4:35 – 4:37
saw my dad do. And then all I
4:37 – 4:40
knew was what my chemical and
4:40 – 4:43
fertilizer sales rep was telling
4:43 – 4:43
me.
4:44 – 4:46
And so that really began the
4:46 – 4:46
journey of,
4:48 – 4:49
What does this all mean?
4:50 – 4:51
And, you know,
4:52 – 4:54
how this is, as you learn more,
4:54 – 4:56
you realize how little you know.
4:57 – 4:58
And so,
4:58 – 5:00
as I fast forward, that was
5:00 – 5:00
2013,
5:00 – 5:01
and here we are,
5:01 – 5:03
you know, 2026.
5:04 – 5:06
We've grown our operation.
5:06 – 5:07
We farm, like I said, just under
5:07 – 5:10
4 ,000 acres of certified
5:10 – 5:11
organic land, mostly
5:12 – 5:13
cotton.
5:13 – 5:15
We do grow organic wheat that we
5:15 – 5:16
sell to people that make their
5:16 – 5:17
own bread.
5:17 – 5:18
And then we
5:19 – 5:21
grow organic grain sorghum.
5:21 – 5:23
We have a cow -calf operation.
5:24 – 5:25
We do a lot of regenerative
5:25 – 5:26
practices.
5:27 – 5:28
Like I said,
5:28 – 5:29
there's an old story about how
5:29 – 5:30
that kept evolving.
5:30 – 5:33
But yeah, to get to our context,
5:33 – 5:34
we're a very dry climate.
5:34 – 5:36
Actually, before we go to
5:36 – 5:37
context, now you raised
5:37 – 5:38
something interesting.
5:38 – 5:39
You didn't finish that thought.
5:39 – 5:41
I'd like to know where you've
5:41 – 5:42
arrived after 13 years.
5:42 – 5:44
What does it mean to have good
5:44 – 5:45
soil?
5:47 – 5:50
Yeah, I've learned that
5:51 – 5:52
it's different.
5:55 – 5:56
Like, you know, I really focus
5:56 – 5:59
on the six whole six soil health
5:59 – 5:59
principles.
6:00 – 6:01
But
6:01 – 6:03
at the same time, the number one
6:03 – 6:04
principle is know your context.
6:05 – 6:06
And
6:06 – 6:09
when you're in a dry climate,
6:10 – 6:12
you can be trying to do all the
6:12 – 6:13
principles and then you go
6:13 – 6:14
through a drought.
6:14 – 6:15
And
6:15 – 6:18
and, you know, so I just I
6:18 – 6:19
started learning, like,
6:20 – 6:21
just all the things that we were
6:21 – 6:23
doing in production, our culture
6:23 – 6:25
from synthetic fertilizers to I
6:25 – 6:28
uses herbicides to, uh, you
6:28 – 6:29
know, just even, I think I
6:29 – 6:30
listened to one of your podcast
6:30 – 6:32
years ago about how the bowl,
6:32 – 6:34
the bowl guard technology and
6:34 – 6:35
cotton is affecting the
6:35 – 6:36
beneficial insects.
6:36 – 6:37
The, the, uh,
6:38 – 6:39
the wasp, the, the, I think it
6:39 – 6:41
was a professor from Georgia or
6:41 – 6:42
Joe Lewis.
6:43 – 6:44
It was an awesome conversation.
6:44 – 6:46
Yeah, it was. And, you know, and
6:46 – 6:47
I just kept.
6:47 – 6:49
As I kept going down this
6:49 – 6:50
journey, I kept thinking, man,
6:50 – 6:51
this is not, for me as a person
6:51 – 6:53
of faith, this is not how God
6:53 – 6:54
created this. I mean,
6:55 – 6:58
and so I just kept, you know, I
6:58 – 6:59
started reading a lot of books.
6:59 – 7:01
I started listening to you and
7:01 – 7:02
others.
7:02 – 7:04
You know, I read Gabe's book,
7:04 – 7:05
Dirt to Soil. I read Alan
7:05 – 7:08
Sabre's book on holistic
7:08 – 7:09
management. And that really
7:09 – 7:10
opened my eyes to this idea of
7:10 – 7:12
brittle environments versus non
7:12 – 7:13
-brittle environments.
7:14 – 7:15
And, you know, I started
7:15 – 7:16
realizing, man, I'm in a brittle
7:16 – 7:17
environment.
7:17 – 7:18
Man, there's a lot of different
7:18 – 7:20
challenges that that presents.
7:22 – 7:23
And so,
7:23 – 7:25
yeah, I don't know if I still
7:25 – 7:26
have,
7:25 – 7:27
I can say this is what good soil
7:27 – 7:28
is.
7:29 – 7:30
I have an idea of what I want it
7:30 – 7:32
to look like, but it's continued
7:32 – 7:35
to evolve and change and
7:35 – 7:37
also realize that maybe I was
7:37 – 7:39
putting some expectations on the
7:39 – 7:40
soil that I was farming
7:40 – 7:43
that were not
7:44 – 7:46
I'm not saying attainable, but
7:46 – 7:48
realistic at times.
7:48 – 7:49
Just because, like I said, we go
7:49 – 7:51
through a lot of droughts.
7:51 – 7:53
I was about to ask you about
7:53 – 7:54
that.
7:54 – 7:56
You mentioned you can do all
7:56 – 7:57
these practices and then you
7:57 – 7:58
have drought for a couple of
7:58 – 7:59
years. And for people who are
7:59 – 8:00
not familiar with your
8:00 – 8:02
environment, what are the
8:02 – 8:02
implications of that?
8:03 – 8:03
What does that mean exactly?
8:05 – 8:07
Yeah, well, a lot.
8:08 – 8:09
you know, when you're so rough
8:09 – 8:11
in my personal operation, 70 %
8:11 – 8:13
of it is rain fed only.
8:13 – 8:14
And if
8:15 – 8:17
you take the last, you know, the
8:17 – 8:18
last really good cotton crop
8:18 – 8:20
that I had was 2021.
8:21 – 8:23
And then 22 was a bad drought,
8:23 – 8:26
23 was a bad drought, 24 and
8:26 – 8:27
being like, we didn't harvest
8:27 – 8:28
anything on these dry land
8:28 – 8:30
acres. Now that the farms that
8:30 – 8:32
we have irrigation, we were able
8:32 – 8:33
to at least supplement enough to
8:33 – 8:34
harvest a crop.
8:34 – 8:36
But, you know, you're sitting
8:36 – 8:37
there thinking, man, like,
8:38 – 8:39
If it wasn't for crop insurance
8:39 – 8:41
and some of these safety net
8:41 – 8:42
programs that we have,
8:43 – 8:44
and we're blessed that we have
8:44 – 8:45
them in the United States,
8:46 – 8:47
but
8:47 – 8:49
you start realizing like, man,
8:49 – 8:50
this is not sustainable.
8:51 – 8:52
Like this is not,
8:52 – 8:53
this is how this has always
8:53 – 8:55
been. And I've always heard, you
8:55 – 8:56
know, previous generations talk
8:56 – 8:57
about one every five years or
8:57 – 8:59
one every three years, you make
8:59 – 8:59
a good crop.
9:00 – 9:02
Well, you know, with the, the,
9:02 – 9:04
the way the economics of farming
9:04 – 9:04
is today.
9:04 – 9:06
And if you're sitting there,
9:06 – 9:07
you know, you sit there and you
9:07 – 9:08
think, well, if we're just doing
9:08 – 9:09
this and we're only surviving
9:09 – 9:10
off crop insurance,
9:11 – 9:12
is this really what we're
9:12 – 9:13
supposed to be doing out here?
9:14 – 9:15
And so it just really made me
9:15 – 9:16
start
9:16 – 9:17
questioning. I'm not saying I've
9:18 – 9:19
come up with all the answers,
9:19 – 9:20
but you start going back to,
9:20 – 9:21
well, there was a reason why
9:21 – 9:23
this was a short prairie grass
9:23 – 9:25
for generations.
9:26 – 9:27
And then we decided to start
9:27 – 9:28
growing cotton.
9:29 – 9:30
And then we found out, oh,
9:30 – 9:31
there's some underground water,
9:31 – 9:33
which we're depleting really
9:33 – 9:34
fast. And so,
9:35 – 9:36
yeah, it's
9:36 – 9:39
It's been a journey and it's
9:39 – 9:40
exciting.
9:40 – 9:41
Like I said, when you go through
9:41 – 9:42
these drought years,
9:42 – 9:44
and then, you know, for me, I
9:44 – 9:45
use a lot of cover cropping.
9:46 – 9:46
I try to,
9:47 – 9:48
you know, let's just look at the
9:48 – 9:49
basic economics.
9:49 – 9:50
So, I use a lot of cover crops.
9:51 – 9:52
Well, there's been a couple
9:52 – 9:54
years there where we interseeded
9:54 – 9:55
our cover crops.
9:55 – 9:56
I spent a lot of money on multi
9:56 – 9:57
-species covers,
9:58 – 10:00
and one
10:00 – 10:01
of those years, none of it came
10:01 – 10:03
up because we never got to rain.
10:03 – 10:06
And so, those are things that
10:06 – 10:06
can really
10:07 – 10:08
Um,
10:08 – 10:10
it challenges you, but you have
10:10 – 10:11
to go back to just believing in
10:11 – 10:13
what you're doing and believing
10:13 – 10:16
in the, the, the principles
10:16 – 10:18
believing in, you know, the,
10:18 – 10:19
the, the land wants to be
10:19 – 10:21
covered and and so adapt.
10:21 – 10:23
I mean, I had that situation
10:23 – 10:24
this year. We intercede a lot of
10:24 – 10:25
our covers into our cotton.
10:26 – 10:28
And, uh, so we do that in
10:28 – 10:29
September.
10:29 – 10:30
We had a rain, a lot of the
10:30 – 10:31
cover crops came up, but then it
10:31 – 10:33
got really hot and dry, which it
10:33 – 10:34
was like abnormally hot.
10:34 – 10:36
Like on Christmas, it was 85
10:36 – 10:37
degrees.
10:37 – 10:38
Wow. A lot of, a lot of those
10:38 – 10:39
covers started dying.
10:40 – 10:42
Well, I get a lot of my cover
10:42 – 10:43
crop seed from green cover seed
10:43 – 10:44
and I called Keith and I'm like,
10:44 – 10:45
man,
10:45 – 10:46
a lot of my covers have died,
10:46 – 10:47
but I still believe in the
10:47 – 10:48
principle. Do you have anything
10:48 – 10:49
that I could just,
10:49 – 10:51
you know, from a cost effective.
10:51 – 10:52
And so we were just like, man,
10:52 – 10:53
let's get a bunch of rye.
10:53 – 10:55
We replanted everything again in
10:55 – 10:57
January and it worked out.
10:57 – 10:58
We had a little
10:58 – 11:01
snow slash rain event and we got
11:01 – 11:02
the covers up this time.
11:02 – 11:05
So anyways, it's just constantly
11:05 – 11:06
trying to adapt and realize
11:06 – 11:07
there's no set formula and you
11:07 – 11:09
got to be flexible and
11:09 – 11:11
you got to stick with the
11:11 – 11:12
principles and not just give up
11:12 – 11:13
when it doesn't work.
11:16 – 11:18
But yeah, the context is really
11:18 – 11:19
big.
11:19 – 11:21
I think the implication of what
11:21 – 11:22
you're saying, and I think I
11:22 – 11:23
maybe have heard you say this
11:23 – 11:24
before, and you haven't said it
11:24 – 11:26
in this conversation, but you
11:26 – 11:27
can have
11:27 – 11:30
several years of improvements to
11:30 – 11:33
soil health and have a drought
11:33 – 11:35
just wipe all of that right off
11:35 – 11:35
the table.
11:36 – 11:37
Yeah.
11:38 – 11:38
Yeah. I mean,
11:39 – 11:39
yeah.
11:39 – 11:40
Yeah. It's a,
11:41 – 11:42
it's pretty humbling when that
11:42 – 11:43
happens. Cause you think, oh, I
11:43 – 11:44
did everything right.
11:44 – 11:45
And I've got everything out
11:45 – 11:46
there and I bought the right
11:46 – 11:47
seed or whatever.
11:47 – 11:48
And,
11:48 – 11:49
and then, you know,
11:49 – 11:52
I just remember 21, 2021,
11:53 – 11:55
we got,
11:55 – 11:57
we had a really good cotton crop
11:57 – 11:59
that year, but once we got into
11:59 – 12:00
September, it quit raining.
12:01 – 12:03
And I remember that year, we
12:03 – 12:04
almost went 12 months with no
12:04 – 12:06
rain. It was it was extremely
12:06 – 12:07
bad drought.
12:08 – 12:09
And I mean, there's nothing you
12:09 – 12:10
can do.
12:10 – 12:12
And you try to,
12:12 – 12:14
you know, steward it well, you
12:14 – 12:15
try to, you know,
12:15 – 12:17
maintain the land the best you
12:17 – 12:18
can.
12:18 – 12:19
But, you know,
12:20 – 12:21
you're limited on what you can
12:21 – 12:22
do.
12:22 – 12:23
So when
12:24 – 12:26
you think about not farming
12:26 – 12:27
beyond your context, I think is
12:27 – 12:28
the phrase that you used
12:28 – 12:29
earlier.
12:31 – 12:31
What
12:32 – 12:34
what has that come to mean to
12:34 – 12:37
you and what is it, how do you
12:37 – 12:39
see either yourself historically
12:39 – 12:41
or other people farming beyond
12:41 – 12:42
their context?
12:42 – 12:43
What are some examples of that?
12:45 – 12:46
Well,
12:46 – 12:47
you know,
12:47 – 12:48
when anybody in production
12:48 – 12:50
agriculture that's maybe not on
12:50 – 12:52
a regenerative journey and or
12:52 – 12:52
maybe
12:52 – 12:55
is pretty conventionally
12:55 – 12:57
mindset, all they're told is
12:57 – 12:58
it's all about yield.
12:59 – 13:01
And so we're constantly trying
13:01 – 13:03
to out yield
13:05 – 13:06
And when you're in a low
13:06 – 13:07
rainfall environment, if you
13:07 – 13:08
think about it,
13:09 – 13:10
you know, say you're an
13:10 – 13:11
irrigated farmer, especially
13:11 – 13:12
where we are,
13:13 – 13:15
any kind of irrigation, you're
13:15 – 13:16
trying to overcome the dry
13:16 – 13:18
climate that you farm in.
13:18 – 13:20
And so even irrigation, in my
13:20 – 13:21
mindset,
13:21 – 13:22
is a
13:23 – 13:25
way to try to outperform the
13:25 – 13:26
environments that you really
13:26 – 13:27
farm in.
13:28 – 13:30
And so when you're in a low
13:30 – 13:31
rainfall environment, it's all
13:31 – 13:32
about yield and you're trying to
13:32 – 13:34
go out there and,
13:34 – 13:35
you know,
13:35 – 13:36
grow a crop
13:37 – 13:39
and you, you know, say you set
13:39 – 13:41
your budget at a yield that's
13:41 – 13:44
not really attainable.
13:44 – 13:46
And so if you look at the,
13:46 – 13:47
and I'm talking about rain fed
13:47 – 13:48
only cotton,
13:49 – 13:50
but if you look at the, you
13:50 – 13:52
know, if you just do 20, 30 year
13:52 – 13:55
average dryland cotton yield,
13:56 – 13:58
in West Texas it hadn't changed
13:58 – 14:00
even with new technologies and
14:00 – 14:01
yeah you'll have an odd year in
14:01 – 14:03
there but even with synthetic
14:03 – 14:04
fertilizers I mean it's you know
14:04 – 14:06
it's 250 to 300 pound cotton
14:07 – 14:09
and but yet we're always going
14:09 – 14:11
out there trying to you
14:11 – 14:13
know oh well I can you know
14:13 – 14:14
spend more and
14:15 – 14:16
you know and I tell people a lot
14:16 – 14:18
of times like what I've learned
14:18 – 14:20
and and just just observation
14:20 – 14:22
and just you know seeing all
14:22 – 14:22
this you
14:23 – 14:24
know if I get a good rain in
14:24 – 14:26
August I can make cotton you
14:26 – 14:27
know if we get
14:27 – 14:29
If we get that rain, that timely
14:29 – 14:30
rain, I mean, that's the thing
14:30 – 14:32
about cotton. Well, anything you
14:32 – 14:33
grow, it's not so much about how
14:33 – 14:35
much you get. It's about when
14:35 – 14:36
you get it and how much you
14:36 – 14:38
actually get into the soil.
14:38 – 14:39
And so,
14:39 – 14:40
yeah,
14:40 – 14:42
it's but I see people and but
14:42 – 14:43
the whole industry is wrapped
14:43 – 14:44
around that. Like,
14:45 – 14:47
you know, when when John Deere
14:47 – 14:49
comes out and says, OK, we're
14:49 – 14:50
going to we're going to
14:50 – 14:51
revolutionize the cotton
14:51 – 14:52
harvesting machine.
14:53 – 14:55
And this is the only option you
14:55 – 14:57
got. And it's priced at a
14:57 – 14:58
million dollars.
14:59 – 14:59
you know,
14:59 – 15:01
that that might work in areas
15:01 – 15:02
that they can, you know,
15:03 – 15:05
make a better yield or whatever.
15:06 – 15:06
But
15:06 – 15:09
in dry land, West Texas, you
15:09 – 15:10
can't afford to pay for the
15:10 – 15:11
machine.
15:11 – 15:12
And so you get into this rat
15:12 – 15:14
race of trying to,
15:14 – 15:15
you know,
15:15 – 15:17
increase your yield and then the
15:17 – 15:18
price of the commodity is low.
15:18 – 15:19
And so it just seems like you're
15:19 – 15:20
just chasing.
15:20 – 15:21
And like I said, you're just
15:21 – 15:23
you're not realizing that you
15:23 – 15:24
farm in a desert.
15:24 – 15:26
And I'm sorry, to my context.
15:27 – 15:28
And
15:27 – 15:29
so, I've shifted to,
15:30 – 15:31
of course, I'm an organic
15:31 – 15:32
farmer. I catch my own seed.
15:33 – 15:36
I don't pay a technology fee.
15:37 – 15:38
Yeah, I don't use any
15:38 – 15:39
herbicides.
15:39 – 15:40
I mean, we've gotten down to
15:40 – 15:41
very low input
15:42 – 15:43
farming.
15:43 – 15:45
We do seed treatments.
15:45 – 15:46
We use bio -code gold.
15:47 – 15:48
Awesome.
15:48 – 15:50
Yeah, on our cotton seed.
15:51 – 15:53
um you know we do that we we use
15:53 – 15:55
seed treatments on our cover
15:55 – 15:56
crops that we get from green
15:56 – 15:57
cover seed and
15:57 – 15:59
uh but those are pretty minimal
15:59 – 16:00
expenses and to me those are
16:00 – 16:01
things that you know it's just
16:01 – 16:03
going to benefit the soil health
16:03 – 16:04
but then but anything outside
16:04 – 16:07
that um you know we're trying
16:07 – 16:09
for my personal operation i'm
16:09 – 16:09
trying to
16:10 – 16:10
you know
16:10 – 16:12
farm as cheap as i possibly can
16:12 – 16:15
just because the context that i
16:15 – 16:17
farm in yeah
16:17 – 16:19
i found i found your data point
16:19 – 16:22
in history quite intriguing that
16:23 – 16:25
over the last 30 years, cotton
16:25 – 16:26
yields haven't really increased
16:26 – 16:27
in spite of technology.
16:27 – 16:28
That doesn't sound like a great
16:28 – 16:30
endorsement of the technology,
16:30 – 16:31
at least for your environment.
16:32 – 16:34
No, and in fact, honestly, I
16:34 – 16:34
think,
16:35 – 16:36
you know, because
16:36 – 16:38
I still have some land that's
16:38 – 16:39
not organic.
16:40 – 16:42
There's been many years my
16:42 – 16:43
organic cotton,
16:43 – 16:45
which is a variety of cotton
16:45 – 16:46
that was developed in the 90s
16:46 – 16:47
that has no GMOs,
16:48 – 16:51
it competes or outcompetes some
16:51 – 16:52
of these new technologies that
16:52 – 16:53
we have.
16:53 – 16:54
Now,
16:53 – 16:55
I don't have a herbicide that I
16:55 – 16:56
can spray over the top,
16:57 – 16:58
but so that is a challenge.
16:58 – 16:59
I mean, I've got to deal with,
16:59 – 17:00
you know,
17:00 – 17:02
the weeds and stuff like that.
17:02 – 17:03
But
17:03 – 17:05
still, from a yielding
17:05 – 17:06
standpoint on a dryland cotton
17:06 – 17:07
farm,
17:08 – 17:09
I don't,
17:09 – 17:12
the technology's not improved
17:12 – 17:14
yield, I don't, from what my
17:14 – 17:15
experience is now.
17:16 – 17:17
so
17:18 – 17:20
I want to also talk about the
17:20 – 17:21
livestock side of your
17:21 – 17:23
operation, but since we're
17:23 – 17:25
having a conversation around
17:25 – 17:27
cotton, what does
17:27 – 17:30
organic cotton production in
17:30 – 17:31
your operation look like?
17:33 – 17:33
Yeah, so
17:34 – 17:35
go ahead.
17:36 – 17:37
You mentioned that you're
17:37 – 17:38
interseeding it with cover
17:38 – 17:39
crops.
17:39 – 17:40
I don't know if there is such a
17:40 – 17:42
thing as a rotation that makes
17:42 – 17:43
sense in your context, but yeah,
17:43 – 17:45
what does the cultural
17:45 – 17:46
management practices look like?
17:47 – 17:47
Yeah.
17:47 – 17:49
Yeah. Rotations, first off,
17:49 – 17:51
extremely challenging for us
17:51 – 17:52
just because of market
17:52 – 17:53
availability.
17:55 – 17:56
You know, we're limited on the
17:56 – 17:57
crops that we can grow.
17:57 – 17:58
I mean, you know,
17:59 – 18:01
our driest months are the winter
18:01 – 18:03
months. So you're going to, you
18:03 – 18:04
know,
18:04 – 18:06
if you're dryland only,
18:06 – 18:07
you're really limited on what
18:07 – 18:08
you can grow in the winter.
18:08 – 18:10
Besides, I don't mind growing
18:10 – 18:11
cover crops. I'm talking about
18:11 – 18:12
if I'm trying to grow a cash
18:12 – 18:13
crop, there's really no option
18:13 – 18:14
there.
18:14 – 18:16
So then if you look, like I
18:16 – 18:17
said, from a from a rain fed
18:17 – 18:19
only production system,
18:19 – 18:20
you know, cotton, cotton's a
18:20 – 18:22
very drought tolerant plant, and
18:22 – 18:24
it can it can do well out here.
18:24 – 18:25
But we're really, really limited
18:25 – 18:28
to that and maybe grain sorghum.
18:29 – 18:31
And from when you're an organic
18:31 – 18:32
farmer, you know, you've always
18:32 – 18:33
got to make sure there's a
18:33 – 18:34
market for the product that
18:34 – 18:35
you're growing.
18:35 – 18:37
And there's there's some
18:38 – 18:39
some markets that are developing
18:39 – 18:41
for the grain sorghum with the
18:41 – 18:42
organic dairies.
18:42 – 18:44
But, you know, I'm pretty
18:44 – 18:45
limited on cotton.
18:46 – 18:47
And also something that people
18:47 – 18:48
forget is
18:49 – 18:50
as a farmer, the only risk
18:50 – 18:52
management tool I have at times
18:52 – 18:53
is my crop insurance.
18:54 – 18:55
I mean, so when I'm going out
18:55 – 18:56
there and I'm making that
18:56 – 18:57
decision, as much as I would
18:57 – 18:58
love to plant,
18:58 – 19:00
let's say, sesame or guar or
19:00 – 19:01
something, and I have grown all
19:01 – 19:02
those crops,
19:03 – 19:04
there's not a safety net program
19:04 – 19:06
to protect me in case we're in a
19:06 – 19:07
drought.
19:07 – 19:08
And so I have to sit there and
19:08 – 19:09
look at, okay,
19:10 – 19:11
from a risk management
19:11 – 19:12
standpoint, like
19:12 – 19:14
cotton right now is, is, has the
19:14 – 19:16
best. safety net from a crop
19:16 – 19:18
insurance that I purchased to
19:18 – 19:19
protect me
19:19 – 19:21
if we don't get that rain in
19:21 – 19:23
August, which, like I said, if
19:23 – 19:25
you take one out of five years,
19:25 – 19:27
your odds are you're probably
19:27 – 19:28
not going to make that crop.
19:28 – 19:30
I mean, I hate to say that, but
19:30 – 19:30
that's reality.
19:31 – 19:32
And that's why I'm constantly
19:32 – 19:33
thinking, man, I don't know if
19:33 – 19:34
this is even what we're supposed
19:34 – 19:35
to be doing. But anyways,
19:36 – 19:37
so yeah,
19:38 – 19:40
we grow mostly organic cotton.
19:41 – 19:41
Um,
19:41 – 19:44
and, and go into context, um,
19:45 – 19:45
you know, as I began that
19:45 – 19:46
journey,
19:47 – 19:48
uh, you know, you had these, you
19:48 – 19:50
had these aha moments and, you
19:51 – 19:52
know, forever out here in West
19:52 – 19:53
Texas, they harvest their cotton
19:53 – 19:55
and then they, they plant their
19:55 – 19:56
wheat for cover.
19:56 – 19:57
You know, that's, that's a,
19:58 – 19:59
That's pretty typically done
19:59 – 20:01
because of wind erosion really
20:01 – 20:03
nothing for soil health is more
20:03 – 20:05
just I don't want, you know,
20:05 – 20:07
the, the dirt to be blowing is
20:07 – 20:09
really what most people do.
20:09 – 20:11
But I'd already been on this
20:11 – 20:13
journey of multi species covers
20:13 – 20:14
and trying to trying to.
20:14 – 20:15
But, you know, when you're
20:15 – 20:16
planting, when you're harvesting
20:16 – 20:17
your cotton in December,
20:17 – 20:18
November, December, it's pretty
20:18 – 20:20
cold. And so then you get really
20:20 – 20:22
limited on what you can plant.
20:22 – 20:23
And so that,
20:23 – 20:23
you know,
20:24 – 20:25
but then I was sitting in a
20:25 – 20:26
meeting one day and it was just
20:26 – 20:28
a meeting that our local weather
20:28 – 20:31
forecast news station
20:31 – 20:33
was talking about,
20:33 – 20:34
you know,
20:34 – 20:35
our average rainfall.
20:35 – 20:36
And I kind of already knew that,
20:36 – 20:38
you know, we're 15 to 18 inches
20:38 – 20:39
on average.
20:40 – 20:42
But then he put a chart that
20:42 – 20:44
showed the average rainfall by
20:44 – 20:44
month.
20:45 – 20:47
And it was just kind of like, oh
20:47 – 20:49
my gosh, I kind of knew it in my
20:49 – 20:50
head, but I've never really seen
20:50 – 20:52
it. And on that chart, and this
20:52 – 20:53
I'm talking about,
20:53 – 20:54
let's just say Lubbock,
20:55 – 20:57
he was using the data from the
20:57 – 20:58
airport in Lubbock.
20:59 – 21:00
He took a 30 -year
21:01 – 21:02
chart,
21:03 – 21:04
and if you look at that,
21:05 – 21:07
the wettest months in our
21:07 – 21:09
context is May, June, and then
21:09 – 21:10
September.
21:11 – 21:12
And so September is your
21:13 – 21:15
third wettest month on average.
21:16 – 21:17
And when I saw that, I thought,
21:18 – 21:20
well, this is why I got to get
21:20 – 21:22
these cover crops interseeded in
21:22 – 21:23
September.
21:23 – 21:25
And in my context, you know,
21:25 – 21:26
when we get to the end of
21:26 – 21:27
August, first September, that
21:27 – 21:29
cotton plant is pretty much,
21:30 – 21:31
you know, it's already cut out
21:31 – 21:32
pretty much.
21:32 – 21:34
Yeah, it's filling some bowls,
21:34 – 21:35
but it's water demand is really
21:35 – 21:36
decreasing.
21:37 – 21:38
And so if we're going to get, if
21:38 – 21:41
our average rainfall event or
21:41 – 21:42
wettest rainfall event is
21:42 – 21:43
September,
21:43 – 21:46
so what we started changing at
21:46 – 21:48
that time is interseeding.
21:48 – 21:51
So we broadcast and interseed
21:51 – 21:52
our cover crop mixes,
21:52 – 21:53
and it's going to be a mixture
21:53 – 21:55
of grasses, legumes, and
21:55 – 21:56
brassicas.
21:56 – 21:58
But we started interseeding
21:58 – 21:59
those cover crops
22:00 – 22:01
And of course, I'm organic, so
22:01 – 22:03
we'll follow that with just a
22:03 – 22:04
light shallow tillage of, you
22:04 – 22:06
know, one to one and a half inch
22:06 – 22:07
just to put a little dirt to
22:07 – 22:08
soil contact.
22:09 – 22:11
And, you know, I can honestly
22:11 – 22:12
say there's only been one year
22:12 – 22:15
and that was in twenty one or
22:15 – 22:17
the fall of twenty one when it
22:17 – 22:19
got so dry. But ever since then,
22:19 – 22:20
we always get a rain.
22:20 – 22:23
And and it's been it's been one
22:23 – 22:25
of the best things that I
22:25 – 22:27
changed because I get more
22:27 – 22:28
species
22:28 – 22:30
where you're
22:30 – 22:32
we're not having a lag in having
22:32 – 22:33
a living root,
22:34 – 22:36
you know, because the cotton is
22:36 – 22:37
still maturing, the cover crops
22:37 – 22:38
going underneath it.
22:39 – 22:39
And so normally,
22:40 – 22:41
because I'm an organic, I don't
22:41 – 22:43
use a herbicide to desiccate the
22:43 – 22:43
plant.
22:44 – 22:46
And so I'm waiting on a freeze.
22:46 – 22:47
And so normally, you know, I
22:47 – 22:49
would say most times, you know,
22:49 – 22:50
like I said, you'll have an odd
22:50 – 22:51
year in there. And like this
22:51 – 22:52
year, it was kind of odd with
22:52 – 22:54
the heat that we had.
22:54 – 22:55
But normally we're driving on,
22:55 – 22:57
you know, six, seven inch tall
22:57 – 23:00
rye and radishes and all these
23:00 – 23:01
things during harvest season.
23:01 – 23:03
And then what's been great about
23:03 – 23:05
that and it's it's.
23:05 – 23:06
not going to say every year is
23:06 – 23:07
the same,
23:07 – 23:09
but a lot of times, as soon as
23:09 – 23:10
we're done harvesting, we bring
23:10 – 23:13
in stocker cattle to graze, and
23:13 – 23:14
that's an additional income.
23:15 – 23:15
Really,
23:15 – 23:16
I tell people, if I can get
23:16 – 23:18
enough stocker cattle to pay my
23:18 – 23:19
cover crop bill,
23:19 – 23:21
I got free fertilizer, I got
23:21 – 23:21
free carbon.
23:23 – 23:25
And then I get the biology and
23:25 – 23:26
all the benefits of the
23:26 – 23:27
livestock and the living root
23:27 – 23:30
and capturing carbon, all the
23:30 – 23:32
things that cover crops do and
23:32 – 23:33
livestock do.
23:34 – 23:35
And so
23:34 – 23:37
we change that.
23:37 – 23:39
And then what we do is,
23:39 – 23:40
like right now, they're all
23:40 – 23:41
growing.
23:41 – 23:42
And then
23:42 – 23:43
it kind of depends on the stage
23:43 – 23:44
of the cover crop.
23:45 – 23:46
But we try to let it grow as
23:46 – 23:47
long as we possibly can.
23:49 – 23:51
And so if it's irrigated land,
23:51 – 23:52
we'll terminate the cover as
23:52 – 23:55
close as we can to plant our
23:55 – 23:56
cotton.
23:56 – 23:58
If it's dry land, we have to
23:58 – 24:00
terminate it 30 to 40 days
24:00 – 24:01
before we plant according to
24:01 – 24:02
crop insurance rules.
24:02 – 24:03
And so,
24:03 – 24:04
yeah, we're just trying to
24:04 – 24:06
maintain something living as
24:06 – 24:09
much as possible and keep the
24:09 – 24:10
ground covered,
24:10 – 24:11
have a living root,
24:12 – 24:14
bring as much diversity as we
24:14 – 24:15
can.
24:15 – 24:16
Because I don't have a big crop
24:16 – 24:17
rotation plan,
24:17 – 24:19
And we've, you know, this year I
24:19 – 24:21
grew a thousand acres of organic
24:21 – 24:23
grain sorghum. So we do do
24:23 – 24:25
rotation when the situation
24:25 – 24:26
presents itself.
24:26 – 24:29
But yeah, that's pretty typical
24:29 – 24:31
of what we do on my farm and
24:31 – 24:32
operation.
24:32 – 24:33
So you've spent a lot of time
24:33 – 24:37
developing this and putting this
24:37 – 24:38
together.
24:37 – 24:39
You've described the win -win
24:39 – 24:41
from a soil health and overall
24:41 – 24:43
ecosystem health perspective
24:43 – 24:43
very well.
24:44 – 24:46
When I think about the scenario
24:46 – 24:47
that you're describing,
24:47 – 24:49
It seems to me that from a land
24:49 – 24:50
stewardship perspective, it
24:50 – 24:51
would be very appealing.
24:52 – 24:53
So
24:53 – 24:56
what are the challenges that
24:56 – 24:57
prevent more people from
24:57 – 24:59
adopting and and perhaps one of
24:59 – 25:00
the sub questions with it.
25:00 – 25:01
is,
25:01 – 25:03
does this work economically
25:03 – 25:04
without an organic premium?
25:06 – 25:07
Yeah,
25:07 – 25:07
well,
25:08 – 25:09
to answer your first question, I
25:09 – 25:10
think
25:11 – 25:14
so many people around
25:14 – 25:15
me,
25:15 – 25:17
one, they constantly think that
25:17 – 25:18
cover crops use moisture.
25:19 – 25:20
So,
25:22 – 25:24
like when I said earlier that a
25:24 – 25:25
lot of people plant wheat,
25:26 – 25:27
behind their cotton.
25:27 – 25:28
A lot of times that's only on
25:28 – 25:29
irrigated land.
25:30 – 25:31
I mean, a lot of people don't do
25:31 – 25:32
it on their dry land because
25:32 – 25:33
they had this idea that,
25:33 – 25:35
well, that cover crop's going to
25:35 – 25:37
use whatever moisture we get in
25:37 – 25:38
the winter.
25:38 – 25:39
And
25:38 – 25:40
I go back to that chart.
25:40 – 25:41
We don't get much moisture in
25:41 – 25:42
the winter anyway.
25:42 – 25:44
So, you know, I'm like, I really
25:44 – 25:45
don't think that two tents we
25:45 – 25:47
got is really making or breaking
25:47 – 25:48
the operation.
25:49 – 25:50
From a moisture,
25:50 – 25:53
and I personally believe the
25:53 – 25:54
benefits outweigh the little bit
25:54 – 25:56
of moisture that your cover crop
25:56 – 25:57
might have used.
25:57 – 25:58
So there's that.
25:59 – 26:01
Secondly, most farmers in our
26:01 – 26:02
area,
26:02 – 26:05
they want to use a herbicide to
26:05 – 26:07
desiccate their plant, their
26:07 – 26:09
cotton plant, a harvest aid.
26:09 – 26:10
So that they can get in there,
26:10 – 26:11
harvest it quicker,
26:11 – 26:12
get it out quicker.
26:13 – 26:14
Um,
26:14 – 26:17
and, you know, I, I just, most
26:17 – 26:18
of them use paraquat and some
26:18 – 26:19
other chemicals that I don't
26:19 – 26:21
have any desire to be around.
26:21 – 26:22
And so I just,
26:23 – 26:24
you know, but that's a, that's a
26:24 – 26:26
mind shift. That's a mind, you
26:26 – 26:28
know, it's, it's so programmed,
26:29 – 26:30
um, that you got to get in
26:30 – 26:31
there. It's, you know, when our
26:31 – 26:33
average freeze date is October
26:33 – 26:35
the 31st in our context.
26:35 – 26:37
That's going to desiccate the
26:37 – 26:38
plant. I don't know why you're
26:38 – 26:40
in a hurry to and so they can't
26:40 – 26:41
get their, their multi species
26:41 – 26:42
in there. So they're really
26:42 – 26:43
limited on what they're
26:43 – 26:44
planning. And so they're not
26:44 – 26:45
bringing in diversity.
26:46 – 26:47
And so, yeah, a lot of it's
26:47 – 26:49
just, you know, as, as a lot of
26:49 – 26:51
people say in this regenerative
26:51 – 26:52
journey, the biggest challenges
26:52 – 26:54
is up here is just trying to.
26:55 – 26:56
see things differently.
26:57 – 26:58
Yeah,
26:58 – 27:01
the organic premium, that
27:01 – 27:04
does help, but I
27:04 – 27:07
would do it no matter what.
27:07 – 27:08
I mean, because I believe in it.
27:10 – 27:12
You know, I said, you have to
27:12 – 27:13
look at things differently.
27:13 – 27:15
I don't pay a big seed cost bill
27:15 – 27:17
on my cotton seed.
27:18 – 27:19
I'm able to catch them and see,
27:19 – 27:21
but I personally believe there's
27:21 – 27:22
benefits to that.
27:24 – 27:26
Yeah, my labor is a little
27:26 – 27:26
higher,
27:27 – 27:29
but John, I'd rather pay a
27:29 – 27:31
person that wants to work than
27:31 – 27:34
Bayer CropScience or BASF
27:34 – 27:37
or John Deere. I really believe
27:37 – 27:37
that.
27:37 – 27:38
We talk about these rural
27:38 – 27:40
communities and there's no jobs.
27:40 – 27:41
Well, yeah, because all we're
27:41 – 27:42
doing is running spray rigs.
27:43 – 27:44
And I'd rather hire...
27:45 – 27:47
I hear people all the time say
27:47 – 27:47
that,
27:48 – 27:50
we want to cut our labor costs.
27:50 – 27:51
Well, why do we want to cut
27:51 – 27:53
somebody that wants a job?
27:53 – 27:54
I mean, and is willing to work.
27:54 – 27:55
Now,
27:55 – 27:56
I know there's challenges to
27:56 – 27:57
that, but I've always,
27:58 – 27:59
I've always read, I'd rather pay
27:59 – 28:02
somebody that wants to work and,
28:02 – 28:03
and, and be a good, pay them a
28:03 – 28:04
good wage. Then,
28:05 – 28:08
then my money going to some, you
28:08 – 28:09
know,
28:08 – 28:10
agri -tech company that doesn't
28:10 – 28:11
care.
28:11 – 28:13
So, you know, there's different
28:13 – 28:15
challenges, you know, being an
28:15 – 28:16
organics, not a,
28:17 – 28:18
It's not the answer.
28:19 – 28:19
I mean, it presents other
28:19 – 28:21
challenges that, you know, that,
28:22 – 28:23
you know, so many people, but,
28:24 – 28:24
you know, that's another aha
28:24 – 28:25
moment.
28:25 – 28:28
I had John is one day before I
28:28 – 28:30
was kind of here back in that
28:30 – 28:31
2013,
28:31 – 28:32
14 timeframe.
28:32 – 28:33
I just woke up one day and I
28:33 – 28:34
realized, man, that spray rigs,
28:34 – 28:35
the most important machine I
28:35 – 28:37
got. And I had a,
28:38 – 28:39
I had a problem with that.
28:39 – 28:40
I just,
28:40 – 28:42
I was like, I don't think this
28:42 – 28:44
is how this was supposed to be
28:44 – 28:44
done. Like.
28:45 – 28:46
How did we get here?
28:46 – 28:47
And almost like, how are we so
28:47 – 28:49
immune to it? And I said, that's
28:49 – 28:50
my purpose. conviction.
28:50 – 28:51
I don't condemn it.
28:53 – 28:54
I've got neighbors all around
28:54 – 28:55
me. That's how they farm.
28:55 – 28:56
And I want the best for them.
28:57 – 29:00
But I just have a different view
29:00 – 29:00
of all that.
29:01 – 29:01
Well,
29:03 – 29:05
I appreciate the, I
29:06 – 29:07
don't know if originality of
29:07 – 29:09
thought is quite the right
29:09 – 29:10
phrase, but perhaps independence
29:10 – 29:11
of thought, because it's that
29:11 – 29:13
independence of thought that
29:14 – 29:16
most of the people who now have
29:16 – 29:17
a decade or two or more
29:17 – 29:18
experience on this pathway have
29:18 – 29:20
needed to exercise at multiple
29:20 – 29:21
points to get to the point where
29:21 – 29:22
they are.
29:22 – 29:23
So I certainly value that.
29:24 – 29:25
You mentioned,
29:25 – 29:27
when we think about independence
29:27 – 29:29
of thought, you made a comment
29:29 – 29:30
in passing earlier when we,
29:31 – 29:32
it might have been when we were
29:32 – 29:33
speaking about irrigated cotton,
29:33 – 29:34
maybe even dry land cotton, you
29:35 – 29:38
expressed the question that you
29:38 – 29:39
wonder whether that's even what
29:39 – 29:40
we should be doing in this
29:40 – 29:41
environment, considering that
29:41 – 29:42
this used to be a short grass
29:42 – 29:42
prairie.
29:43 – 29:45
I'm really interested in your
29:45 – 29:48
livestock operation and what
29:48 – 29:49
you were doing there.
29:50 – 29:52
What's the pathway that you're
29:52 – 29:54
on for regenerating shortgrass
29:54 – 29:55
prairies?
29:56 – 29:57
Yeah,
29:57 – 29:57
well,
29:57 – 29:59
that's a journey in itself.
30:01 – 30:04
I'm sure many of your listeners
30:04 – 30:05
have had the same experience.
30:07 – 30:10
Years ago, I had a farm that has
30:10 – 30:11
a pivot, a center pivot
30:11 – 30:12
irrigation,
30:13 – 30:14
so it has a circle.
30:15 – 30:17
And I planted a cover crop on
30:17 – 30:19
the corners that's not
30:19 – 30:20
irrigated.
30:20 – 30:22
And I just kind of,
30:22 – 30:25
I quit doing anything to them.
30:25 – 30:26
And the succession,
30:27 – 30:28
three years later, it's back in
30:28 – 30:29
the grass without me doing a
30:29 – 30:30
thing.
30:30 – 30:32
Now, we grazed it one year.
30:32 – 30:33
But
30:33 – 30:36
if you've ever experienced land
30:36 – 30:37
that
30:38 – 30:40
Maybe, you know, you didn't do
30:40 – 30:42
much too. And within
30:42 – 30:43
three years, it goes back to
30:43 – 30:45
grass. You sit there and do
30:45 – 30:45
nothing.
30:46 – 30:47
I mean, that's, that's what God
30:47 – 30:49
created. I mean, there, there's
30:49 – 30:50
a reason why it does that is,
30:51 – 30:52
you know, like with very little
30:52 – 30:54
effort. I mean, I'm talking like
30:54 – 30:55
zero effort.
30:55 – 30:58
Um, and, and I said, read it now
30:58 – 30:59
on savory's book on holistic
30:59 – 31:01
management really.
31:02 – 31:03
And I'm not saying I'm,
31:03 – 31:05
I'm an expert on all that I'm
31:05 – 31:06
learning, you know, um,
31:07 – 31:09
it really just began to,
31:09 – 31:10
uh,
31:10 – 31:12
to convict me, I guess about,
31:13 – 31:14
you know,
31:15 – 31:16
what was this place like before?
31:17 – 31:17
And, and I,
31:18 – 31:20
before we, we got on, I found a,
31:20 – 31:23
there was a explorer that came
31:23 – 31:24
out here,
31:24 – 31:25
you know, in the early,
31:25 – 31:26
you know, before there were
31:26 – 31:27
settlements.
31:27 – 31:29
He was with the Calgary and,
31:30 – 31:31
and he said, I'm going to get
31:31 – 31:32
his quote wrong, but he said
31:32 – 31:33
something to the fact that there
31:33 – 31:35
was no shrubs, there was no
31:35 – 31:36
trees, and there was no water.
31:37 – 31:38
And he said, even the Indians
31:38 – 31:40
avoid this area.
31:40 – 31:41
And he's talking about the area
31:41 – 31:42
that I farm in.
31:42 – 31:43
This is the Llano Estacado,
31:43 – 31:44
whatever you want to call it.
31:44 – 31:45
And so,
31:45 – 31:47
you sit there and you think,
31:47 – 31:48
that's what it was, and we're
31:48 – 31:50
trying to force it to be
31:50 – 31:51
something that it wasn't.
31:52 – 31:54
And so that began me on this
31:54 – 31:55
question of like,
31:56 – 31:58
is really what I'm doing at the
31:58 – 31:59
end of the day is I'm trying to,
32:00 – 32:01
what's the saying, I'm trying to
32:01 – 32:04
force a square peg into a round
32:04 – 32:04
hole.
32:04 – 32:07
Is that really what we're trying
32:07 – 32:08
to do at the end of the day?
32:08 – 32:10
We're trying to make this short
32:10 – 32:13
prairie grass system out here
32:13 – 32:16
be agricultural production
32:16 – 32:17
land.
32:17 – 32:19
And I know that that's radical.
32:20 – 32:21
I know that there's landowners.
32:21 – 32:22
I know that land values,
32:23 – 32:24
there's all these things that
32:24 – 32:26
affect that. And I get that.
32:27 – 32:28
And I'm not saying that,
32:28 – 32:29
you know, I'm going to today.
32:30 – 32:31
But what I started doing was,
32:32 – 32:34
I was offered a piece of land to
32:34 – 32:36
rent that was in grass.
32:36 – 32:38
And it was a section of a land,
32:38 – 32:39
so 640 acres.
32:41 – 32:42
And the typical farmer out here
32:42 – 32:44
would take that and destroy
32:44 – 32:45
every bit of the grass and put
32:45 – 32:46
it into production,
32:46 – 32:48
especially as an organic farmer.
32:48 – 32:49
It goes right into organic
32:49 – 32:50
because it hadn't been farmed in
32:50 – 32:51
30 years.
32:52 – 32:54
And I because of the journey
32:54 – 32:55
that I've been on, I just really
32:55 – 32:57
feel like that's what that
32:57 – 32:58
wasn't God's desire for that
32:58 – 33:01
land. And so I'm paying a cash
33:01 – 33:02
lease, but I kept it in grass.
33:03 – 33:05
And so what we did was,
33:05 – 33:07
you know, I started buying
33:07 – 33:11
cows,
33:11 – 33:12
you know, my own started
33:12 – 33:13
building my own herd.
33:13 – 33:14
They're not cheap right now, but
33:14 – 33:15
I started building my own.
33:15 – 33:17
And I'm the breed that I'm using
33:17 – 33:18
is Bonsmora.
33:19 – 33:20
You know,
33:20 – 33:22
I think you've talked about him
33:22 – 33:23
and the cattle that he
33:23 – 33:24
developed.
33:25 – 33:26
It just so happened I had a
33:26 – 33:27
friend out here that had a herd
33:27 – 33:29
of them and he was willing to
33:29 – 33:29
sell me some heifers.
33:30 – 33:31
And so we started, you know, we
33:31 – 33:33
bought those three years ago and
33:33 – 33:34
we started
33:35 – 33:36
holistically grazing.
33:36 – 33:37
And I'm trying to practice the
33:37 – 33:38
things that I've learned from
33:38 – 33:40
Alejandro, from Alan Williams,
33:40 – 33:43
from the list goes on of people
33:43 – 33:45
that are using animals and
33:45 – 33:46
livestock to restore the
33:47 – 33:49
ecosystem and the soil health.
33:49 – 33:52
And so we're doing that.
33:52 – 33:54
And I so believe in it.
33:54 – 33:56
But the problem is, it's hard to
33:56 – 33:57
go from
33:57 – 33:59
here to here overnight.
33:59 – 34:00
It takes time.
34:01 – 34:02
You know, livestock is
34:02 – 34:03
you got infrastructure, you've
34:03 – 34:04
got, you know, when there's no
34:04 – 34:06
fencing out here, you've got,
34:06 – 34:07
like I said, the price of those
34:07 – 34:08
cows are extremely high right
34:08 – 34:10
now. So I can only buy a few at
34:10 – 34:11
a time. And I'm trying to keep
34:11 – 34:12
all my heifers and trying to
34:12 – 34:13
build the herd.
34:14 – 34:16
But I so believe in that, John,
34:17 – 34:19
that I own a farm that was in,
34:20 – 34:21
it was an organic dryland farm,
34:21 – 34:24
and I planted it back to grass.
34:25 – 34:27
And because that's, I believe
34:27 – 34:28
that is the future
34:29 – 34:31
of where we're at in West Texas.
34:32 – 34:33
And I know that that's radical,
34:34 – 34:35
and I'm not saying that I'm
34:35 – 34:36
going to turn back all my
34:36 – 34:37
farmland but that's the
34:37 – 34:38
direction I'm going,
34:39 – 34:40
whether it's cattle or even
34:40 – 34:41
sheep I mean really probably
34:41 – 34:42
sheep
34:42 – 34:44
fit our context better than
34:44 – 34:46
cattle do just because of,
34:46 – 34:47
you know, the context that we
34:47 – 34:48
farm in.
34:51 – 34:52
Let's talk a bit more about the
34:52 – 34:55
math behind why you believe that
34:55 – 34:57
to be true and the logic
34:57 – 34:58
pathways that you are following.
34:59 – 35:01
Obviously, we've already spoken
35:01 – 35:02
about water depletion of
35:02 – 35:04
aquifers and what that context
35:04 – 35:05
used to be like.
35:06 – 35:09
But obviously, you
35:10 – 35:11
have this vision of what is
35:11 – 35:12
possible.
35:13 – 35:15
But in order for that to be
35:15 – 35:15
possible,
35:16 – 35:17
it also must be economical.
35:17 – 35:19
And obviously, you see a pathway
35:19 – 35:20
economically or you wouldn't be
35:20 – 35:21
going down this pathway.
35:22 – 35:24
Yeah, well, I do because,
35:25 – 35:26
okay, if I keep farming, I mean,
35:26 – 35:27
right now, I don't own that.
35:27 – 35:28
Let's just take the cotton
35:28 – 35:29
harvest machine.
35:29 – 35:30
I don't own one of those new
35:30 – 35:31
balers,
35:31 – 35:33
but it's coming.
35:34 – 35:36
And so if I'm going to go buy a
35:36 – 35:37
million dollar or just say I
35:37 – 35:39
found a use of 700 ,000, you
35:39 – 35:40
know how many cows I could buy
35:40 – 35:41
for $700 ,000?
35:43 – 35:44
And I think that's what we
35:44 – 35:45
forget.
35:45 – 35:47
We don't think about all the
35:47 – 35:50
tractors and the equipment that
35:50 – 35:51
it takes to grow that crop.
35:52 – 35:53
And when I look at the price of
35:53 – 35:55
machinery and I look at
35:55 – 35:57
input costs, and I look at fuel
35:57 – 35:59
costs, and I look at all that,
35:59 – 36:00
and then I look at
36:00 – 36:01
animals,
36:02 – 36:03
and if I could get rid of all
36:03 – 36:04
that,
36:04 – 36:06
and then I just have the expense
36:06 – 36:07
of the animals and the, you
36:07 – 36:08
know, yes.
36:08 – 36:09
On one side of the ledger, you
36:09 – 36:10
have an asset that depreciates,
36:10 – 36:11
on the other side, you have an
36:11 – 36:12
asset that appreciates.
36:12 – 36:13
Absolutely,
36:13 – 36:14
John, and that's the thing,
36:14 – 36:16
like, and that's why I look at
36:16 – 36:17
all that, and I just,
36:17 – 36:18
you know,
36:18 – 36:20
we got farmers in debt, we got,
36:21 – 36:21
you know, the government's
36:21 – 36:23
having to send out payments to
36:23 – 36:26
keep farmers surviving right
36:26 – 36:26
now,
36:26 – 36:28
And then when I look at, well,
36:28 – 36:29
I'm really only surviving off
36:29 – 36:30
crime. insurance and government
36:30 – 36:31
payments.
36:32 – 36:33
Are you really being profitable?
36:34 – 36:35
That's also a vulnerable
36:35 – 36:36
position to be in.
36:37 – 36:38
Yeah, it is because you're at
36:38 – 36:40
the mercy of an administration
36:40 – 36:43
or, uh, who knows what.
36:43 – 36:43
And so that's where,
36:44 – 36:45
you know, like I said, I'm not
36:45 – 36:47
saying I'm there today, but
36:47 – 36:50
that's the goal because to me,
36:50 – 36:51
Like I said,
36:51 – 36:54
the livestock work if it's
36:54 – 36:55
managed right.
36:55 – 36:56
Now,
36:55 – 36:57
what I see so many times out
36:57 – 36:59
here is they go out and they get
36:59 – 37:02
way too many animals for our dry
37:02 – 37:02
context.
37:03 – 37:04
And you can't do that.
37:04 – 37:05
And then that's the thing.
37:05 – 37:07
It takes, you know,
37:07 – 37:09
it
37:09 – 37:10
takes management.
37:11 – 37:11
And I think a lot of people
37:11 – 37:14
don't understand if you want to
37:14 – 37:15
follow the Alan Sangre ideas or
37:15 – 37:16
just some of these techniques
37:16 – 37:17
for that.
37:17 – 37:18
you know, understanding, you
37:18 – 37:20
know, Alejandro, for me, would
37:20 – 37:21
be the greatest example, because
37:21 – 37:22
he's doing it in the same
37:22 – 37:24
context, if not worse.
37:24 – 37:26
But most people don't want to do
37:26 – 37:27
that.
37:27 – 37:28
They just want to turn them out.
37:28 – 37:29
And the next thing you know, we
37:29 – 37:30
go through another drought,
37:30 – 37:31
there's nothing left.
37:31 – 37:33
I tried that livestock deal at
37:33 – 37:33
work, you know,
37:34 – 37:35
and, and like I said, I'm not
37:35 – 37:36
saying I've,
37:36 – 37:39
I'm where I want to be.
37:39 – 37:40
But to me, it just makes more
37:40 – 37:43
sense in the context that I'm
37:43 – 37:44
farming, because I feel like
37:44 – 37:45
If we keep going down this road
37:45 – 37:48
of trying to grow crops in a dry
37:48 – 37:49
climate,
37:49 – 37:50
and like I said, the equipment
37:50 – 37:51
expense,
37:52 – 37:54
the economics don't make sense
37:54 – 37:55
to me. We're also on a pathway
37:55 – 37:56
that
37:56 – 37:58
we want to avoid.
37:59 – 38:00
So many of us want to avoid the
38:00 – 38:01
conversation, but in many of
38:01 – 38:02
these regions, we're in a
38:02 – 38:03
pathway where we are going to
38:03 – 38:04
run out of water.
38:05 – 38:06
Oh, yeah.
38:06 – 38:07
And I think it's sooner than
38:07 – 38:08
later,
38:08 – 38:09
especially for this area.
38:10 – 38:10
I mean,
38:10 – 38:11
where I farm, we're on the very
38:11 – 38:14
end of the aquifer,
38:14 – 38:15
and it
38:16 – 38:17
You know, I've even seen in the
38:17 – 38:19
short, you know, of course, I've
38:19 – 38:21
been farming for 15, 16 years, a
38:21 – 38:22
lot of the land that I had that
38:22 – 38:23
is irrigated is
38:23 – 38:25
not what it was two, three years
38:25 – 38:25
ago.
38:25 – 38:27
I mean, it is drastically
38:27 – 38:28
declining.
38:29 – 38:30
And but see, but but then that's
38:30 – 38:31
where you,
38:32 – 38:33
you know, a lot of people don't
38:33 – 38:33
want to talk about, well, that
38:33 – 38:35
affects land values that
38:35 – 38:36
affects, you
38:36 – 38:38
know, and so these are I feel
38:38 – 38:40
like there's a lot of hard
38:40 – 38:41
conversations and a lot of hard
38:41 – 38:42
decisions that
38:43 – 38:44
that are coming at us that
38:44 – 38:45
nobody really wants to talk
38:45 – 38:47
about or even think about.
38:47 – 38:48
We just want to keep
38:48 – 38:49
going.
38:49 – 38:50
And,
38:50 – 38:51
you know, And like I said, when
38:51 – 38:53
I look at the last, you know,
38:53 – 38:56
four years and I look at if it
38:56 – 38:58
wasn't for program payments from
38:58 – 38:59
our government,
39:00 – 39:01
if it wasn't for crop insurance,
39:01 – 39:03
which is highly subsidized by
39:03 – 39:03
our government,
39:04 – 39:06
we'd all be out of business out
39:06 – 39:07
here. And so to me, that's not
39:07 – 39:08
sustainable.
39:09 – 39:10
And and that's why I look at
39:10 – 39:13
grass and I look at this system
39:13 – 39:13
and I look at,
39:14 – 39:15
well, that works, you know,
39:15 – 39:16
like,
39:16 – 39:18
you know, if it's managed right,
39:18 – 39:19
if it's managed right and it's
39:19 – 39:20
done right.
39:21 – 39:23
And, you know, and then you can
39:23 – 39:24
use the little bit of irrigation
39:24 – 39:27
you have to grow forage if you
39:27 – 39:28
need to.
39:28 – 39:29
It doesn't take much water to
39:29 – 39:30
grow forage,
39:30 – 39:31
you know. I mean, you can grow,
39:32 – 39:34
say you wanted to, you know,
39:34 – 39:37
diversify and, you know, maybe
39:37 – 39:39
have your animals on,
39:39 – 39:40
you know,
39:40 – 39:41
perennial grass in the summer
39:41 – 39:44
and then use that irrigated land
39:44 – 39:45
to grow to have something to
39:45 – 39:46
graze in the winter.
39:46 – 39:48
you know, with very little, if
39:48 – 39:49
it's done right, like I said,
39:49 – 39:51
it's,
39:51 – 39:53
but you
39:53 – 39:54
got landowners that want,
39:55 – 39:56
they're used to certain kind of
39:56 – 39:57
income.
39:57 – 39:58
You've got, like I said, you,
39:58 – 40:00
and then John,
40:00 – 40:01
I was talking to a guy this
40:01 – 40:02
morning about this,
40:02 – 40:04
you know, the government, you
40:04 – 40:05
probably know this, they just
40:05 – 40:06
came out with these bridge
40:06 – 40:08
payments and we're thankful for
40:08 – 40:08
them.
40:08 – 40:09
I'm not, I'm not denying this.
40:09 – 40:10
The last three years have been
40:10 – 40:11
rough,
40:11 – 40:13
but when you look at those
40:13 – 40:16
bridge payments and Cotton's got
40:16 – 40:17
one of the highest payments,
40:18 – 40:19
well,
40:19 – 40:21
you're incentivizing guys to
40:21 – 40:22
just keep playing.
40:23 – 40:24
Grow more cotton.
40:23 – 40:24
Grow more cotton.
40:25 – 40:28
And then we're like, well, we
40:28 – 40:29
got to increase demand.
40:29 – 40:30
Well, we just incentivize to
40:30 – 40:31
grow more of it.
40:32 – 40:33
So I don't know.
40:33 – 40:35
It just seems like we're just on
40:35 – 40:37
this road of chasing our tail.
40:37 – 40:40
And like I said, nobody wants to
40:40 – 40:40
have these conversations.
40:41 – 40:43
Nobody wants to come to the
40:43 – 40:44
realization that maybe this
40:45 – 40:46
You know, something's got to
40:46 – 40:46
change.
40:47 – 40:47
I mean,
40:47 – 40:49
but I want to go back and talk a
40:49 – 40:51
bit more about the economics of
40:51 – 40:52
livestock and of sheep, perhaps,
40:53 – 40:55
if that's an appropriate fit.
40:55 – 40:58
You spoke about just the
40:58 – 40:59
additional resilience.
40:59 – 41:01
You spoke about appreciating
41:01 – 41:02
assets versus depreciating
41:02 – 41:03
assets. You spoke about the
41:03 – 41:05
difference in overhead costs.
41:05 – 41:06
But what does it when you look
41:06 – 41:07
at,
41:07 – 41:09
and there's also part of a part
41:09 – 41:10
of the land value conversation
41:10 – 41:11
is also a cash flow
41:11 – 41:13
conversation. What is the cash
41:13 – 41:14
flow capability of a livestock
41:14 – 41:15
herd in your context versus
41:15 – 41:16
cotton production?
41:18 – 41:19
Well, I think if if a guy can
41:19 – 41:22
sit down and and say
41:23 – 41:24
he,
41:25 – 41:26
you know,
41:26 – 41:28
like, for instance, like if I
41:28 – 41:31
way I look at it is is is,
41:32 – 41:32
you know,
41:33 – 41:35
how many head or sheep, how many
41:35 – 41:36
head of cattle or sheep do I
41:36 – 41:37
need
41:37 – 41:39
to provide a living for my
41:39 – 41:40
family?
41:42 – 41:43
where I'm not,
41:43 – 41:44
I'm not going into debt to buy
41:44 – 41:45
machinery.
41:45 – 41:46
I'm not having to
41:47 – 41:48
buy all these inputs.
41:49 – 41:51
And I can get to the point
41:51 – 41:52
where,
41:52 – 41:53
you know, we have enough
41:53 – 41:55
head to
41:55 – 41:57
generate enough income to
41:57 – 41:58
provide for me.
41:58 – 41:58
And then if I have any
41:58 – 42:00
employees, and that's the way I
42:00 – 42:01
look at it. And so,
42:01 – 42:02
you know, for me, you know,
42:03 – 42:04
if it's cattle,
42:05 – 42:07
you know, if I had at the prices
42:07 – 42:09
today, I've often said, well, if
42:09 – 42:11
I had, you know, 200 to 300 head
42:11 – 42:11
of cattle,
42:12 – 42:13
if it's sheep,
42:13 – 42:14
you know, right now, those
42:14 – 42:15
things are,
42:15 – 42:17
it's amazing the value that the
42:17 – 42:18
sheep are bringing.
42:18 – 42:20
Like I said before, those are,
42:23 – 42:25
to me, you get your money
42:25 – 42:26
returned faster on the sheep,
42:27 – 42:28
hands down.
42:28 – 42:30
Because, you know, they're twins
42:30 – 42:31
and triplets and,
42:31 – 42:32
you know,
42:32 – 42:33
you can have,
42:33 – 42:35
you just get, you get the return
42:35 – 42:36
on your investment a whole lot
42:36 – 42:37
faster.
42:37 – 42:39
But the infrastructure is a
42:39 – 42:40
little harder.
42:40 – 42:41
They need a little bit better
42:41 – 42:42
fence.
42:42 – 42:43
And so,
42:43 – 42:44
I'm probably not giving you a
42:44 – 42:46
good direct answer, but that's
42:46 – 42:46
the way I look at it.
42:46 – 42:47
Because like,
42:47 – 42:48
I mean, right now, I'm like,
42:48 – 42:50
John, for my operation as an
42:50 – 42:52
organic cotton farmer that
42:52 – 42:53
farms, like I said, around 4
42:53 – 42:54
,000 acres,
42:54 – 42:56
I've got seven tractors,
42:57 – 42:57
okay?
42:58 – 42:59
The maintenance on those
42:59 – 43:00
tractors, the insurance on those
43:00 – 43:01
tractors, and they're not all
43:01 – 43:02
new. I mean, they're all pretty
43:02 – 43:04
old. I'm talking like high hour
43:04 – 43:05
tractors.
43:05 – 43:06
And when I sit there and I think
43:06 – 43:07
about,
43:08 – 43:09
you know,
43:09 – 43:11
if I sit there and like, I've
43:11 – 43:12
got one that's got, you know, 12
43:12 – 43:13
,000 hours on it.
43:13 – 43:14
And I'm sitting there thinking,
43:14 – 43:16
well, I've got to go upgrade
43:16 – 43:17
that tractor.
43:17 – 43:18
Well,
43:18 – 43:20
you're looking at $150 ,000,
43:21 – 43:23
maybe at the low end,
43:23 – 43:24
up to $300 ,000.
43:25 – 43:26
I mean, that's the stuff that I
43:26 – 43:27
started thinking, man, you could
43:27 – 43:30
buy a lot of animals and don't
43:30 – 43:31
worry about all that, you know,
43:31 – 43:32
all that debt and machinery.
43:33 – 43:34
And like I said, I'm just
43:34 – 43:35
talking about the cotton harvest
43:35 – 43:35
machine.
43:35 – 43:37
That's one of those decisions
43:37 – 43:38
that I'm just like,
43:38 – 43:39
man, it's coming.
43:39 – 43:41
I mean, I still run the old
43:41 – 43:42
machines and we're fixing them
43:42 – 43:43
and,
43:43 – 43:44
you know, open that they just
43:44 – 43:45
keep rolling because they're
43:45 – 43:45
paid for.
43:46 – 43:47
But there's going to come a day
43:47 – 43:49
when they keep telling us, John,
43:49 – 43:50
you're not even going to carry
43:50 – 43:51
the parts for these things.
43:51 – 43:54
And so that's where I look at,
43:55 – 43:56
man,
43:56 – 43:58
yeah, I might be profitable, but
43:58 – 43:59
then you start looking at all
43:59 – 44:02
the expense that you can just
44:02 – 44:04
be done with.
44:06 – 44:07
And like I said, I'm probably
44:07 – 44:08
not giving you a good direct
44:08 – 44:09
answer, but that's the way I
44:09 – 44:11
look at it. John, is just not
44:11 – 44:13
having all these, like you said,
44:13 – 44:14
liabilities, have more assets.
44:15 – 44:18
But to break it down from a
44:18 – 44:19
dollars per acre,
44:20 – 44:22
if you had sheep, I guess I
44:22 – 44:23
could sit there and pencil it
44:23 – 44:25
out, but if you had 100 acres
44:25 – 44:26
and you could run so many head
44:26 – 44:28
of sheep, that
44:28 – 44:31
is a challenge because I think
44:31 – 44:32
in our dry climate, you're going
44:32 – 44:33
to have to run
44:34 – 44:36
More acres per head just because
44:36 – 44:37
of,
44:37 – 44:39
you know, lack of rainfall and,
44:39 – 44:40
you know, versus a place that
44:40 – 44:41
maybe, you know, like,
44:42 – 44:43
I think, I think if you go by
44:43 – 44:46
the NRCS rules and what they
44:46 – 44:48
recommend for us is 1 head of
44:48 – 44:49
cow per 20 acres.
44:50 – 44:52
That's hard. That's that's that
44:52 – 44:54
takes a lot of acres to run 300
44:54 – 44:55
head of cattle.
44:55 – 44:56
Um, so.
44:58 – 45:00
1 of the aspects, though, that
45:02 – 45:05
I perceive as my perception is
45:05 – 45:06
often underappreciated.
45:07 – 45:10
is the value of building equity
45:10 – 45:12
and appreciating assets.
45:14 – 45:16
Years ago, I had Alvin Peachy,
45:16 – 45:17
he was an Amish farmer from
45:17 – 45:18
Pennsylvania, an Amish dairy
45:18 – 45:19
farmer from Pennsylvania here on
45:19 – 45:20
the podcast.
45:20 – 45:21
And
45:22 – 45:24
Larry Tranel from Iowa State
45:24 – 45:25
University was
45:25 – 45:26
a dairy economist.
45:27 – 45:28
He spent
45:28 – 45:30
I'm not exactly sure, 30 plus
45:30 – 45:32
years analyzing the economic and
45:32 – 45:33
the financial performance of
45:33 – 45:34
hundreds,
45:34 – 45:35
thousands of dairies all over
45:35 – 45:36
the country.
45:36 – 45:38
He was commissioned by Organic
45:38 – 45:39
Valley to do a research of an,
45:39 – 45:41
or to evaluate a number of
45:41 – 45:42
different organic and grass fed
45:42 – 45:43
operations.
45:44 – 45:47
And he said that Albans 80
45:47 – 45:49
cow, a hundred percent grass
45:49 – 45:50
based dairy,
45:51 – 45:51
grass fed
45:51 – 45:54
dairy was the single most
45:54 – 45:56
profitable dairy farm that he
45:56 – 45:58
had ever evaluated in his entire
45:58 – 45:58
career.
45:59 – 45:59
Wow.
46:00 – 46:01
And it
46:02 – 46:04
was because of the magic of
46:04 – 46:05
compounded reality.
46:05 – 46:07
value in assets and equity in
46:07 – 46:08
livestock.
46:09 – 46:12
You have to look at that and you
46:12 – 46:13
have to pay attention to that
46:13 – 46:14
particular aspect.
46:15 – 46:17
But Alvin is my age.
46:17 – 46:19
He's not 40 years old yet.
46:19 – 46:20
And he's bought and paid for
46:20 – 46:22
three farms at this point in a
46:22 – 46:24
region where farm ground costs
46:24 – 46:27
$40 ,000 an acre on dairy at
46:27 – 46:29
the exact same time.
46:30 – 46:32
when dairies across the country
46:32 – 46:34
are going out of business left
46:34 – 46:34
and right.
46:35 – 46:36
Yeah.
46:36 – 46:38
And I mean, there's there's a
46:38 – 46:39
whole conversation that could be
46:39 – 46:40
had around that.
46:40 – 46:42
But it's Alvin
46:42 – 46:44
told me he had
46:45 – 46:46
kind of a similar realization
46:46 – 46:48
around corn production that
46:48 – 46:49
you've had around cotton.
46:49 – 46:50
He looked at all of his
46:50 – 46:52
equipment costs, all of his
46:52 – 46:53
machinery, the horses that he
46:53 – 46:55
was feeding to grow corn.
46:55 – 46:57
He said, I can't afford to grow
46:57 – 46:59
corn. And he sold all of his
46:59 – 47:00
corn production equipment and he
47:00 – 47:03
went to 100 % forages because of
47:03 – 47:04
his overhead costs.
47:05 – 47:06
Yeah.
47:06 – 47:06
Yeah.
47:07 – 47:08
Well, I think, I think anybody
47:08 – 47:10
can, like I said, they'll just
47:10 – 47:12
look at it from that perspective
47:12 – 47:13
of,
47:14 – 47:15
you know, like I said,
47:17 – 47:18
I keep going back to the cotton
47:18 – 47:19
harvest machine today,
47:20 – 47:23
but I mean, I'm just...
47:23 – 47:23
The cotton harvest machine
47:23 – 47:25
struck a nerve for you, didn't
47:25 – 47:25
it?
47:25 – 47:28
It does, because I truly believe
47:29 – 47:30
that John Deere created a
47:30 – 47:32
product or a tool or whatever
47:32 – 47:33
you want to call it,
47:34 – 47:34
that
47:35 – 47:38
a person where I farm cannot,
47:39 – 47:40
cannot just pay for it from
47:40 – 47:42
farming. I mean, there has to be
47:42 – 47:43
some other,
47:43 – 47:44
some other kind of income, you
47:44 – 47:45
know, we've got a lot of oil and
47:45 – 47:46
gas in the area.
47:46 – 47:47
And we got, you know, there's a,
47:48 – 47:49
you know, they call it off the
47:49 – 47:49
farm income.
47:50 – 47:52
But, you know, I just those
47:52 – 47:53
those things you sit there and
47:53 – 47:54
look at it like, man, this is
47:55 – 47:56
this is a,
47:57 – 47:59
I don't know, even even land
47:59 – 48:00
values. I've had conversation
48:00 – 48:01
with a lot of farmers in our
48:01 – 48:02
area.
48:02 – 48:03
Land no longer pays for itself
48:03 – 48:05
because the value is so
48:05 – 48:06
out,
48:07 – 48:08
you know, the value of the land
48:08 – 48:10
has gotten so to a point that
48:10 – 48:11
if you're just taking,
48:12 – 48:13
you know, forever, if you could,
48:13 – 48:14
you know,
48:14 – 48:16
whatever that 25 % that you're
48:16 – 48:18
paying to, if it's a crop share,
48:19 – 48:20
you know, it would kind of pay
48:20 – 48:22
for the land over, you know, a
48:22 – 48:24
period of time, but the prices
48:24 – 48:25
of the land in our area are at a
48:25 – 48:26
point where now,
48:27 – 48:28
you know, you know, just paying
48:28 – 48:29
for the land from growing cotton
48:29 – 48:30
is not
48:31 – 48:34
not there. And so I think
48:34 – 48:35
that's true in many parts of the
48:35 – 48:36
country, though, isn't it?
48:36 – 48:37
All across a wide range of
48:37 – 48:38
different crops.
48:38 – 48:39
Oh, yeah, I think so.
48:39 – 48:40
I mean,
48:40 – 48:42
but I don't know.
48:42 – 48:43
I don't know. I just feel like
48:43 – 48:45
there's some hard decisions and
48:45 – 48:46
hard things that we need to
48:46 – 48:47
realities that we need to come
48:47 – 48:48
to
48:48 – 48:49
and
48:50 – 48:52
across the whole, you know,
48:53 – 48:54
agriculture.
48:55 – 48:56
Yeah, those those are very
48:56 – 48:58
uncomfortable decisions, because
48:58 – 48:59
when you think about
49:00 – 49:02
I don't know if I would describe
49:02 – 49:04
it as foundational, but it is.
49:04 – 49:06
It is a very important block of
49:06 – 49:09
our national economy has been
49:09 – 49:10
the
49:10 – 49:13
safe investment that hedge
49:13 – 49:14
funds and
49:15 – 49:18
Investment funds have made safe
49:18 – 49:20
investments in farmland because
49:20 – 49:22
farmland always appreciates.
49:23 – 49:25
Well, we might be approaching a
49:25 – 49:26
point in history where that's no
49:26 – 49:27
longer true, and it's been true
49:27 – 49:28
for the last, I'm not sure the
49:28 – 49:30
exact time period, but 40 or 50
49:30 – 49:31
years at least, maybe longer.
49:32 – 49:33
And that's quite an
49:33 – 49:34
uncomfortable conversation
49:34 – 49:36
because it affects the entire
49:36 – 49:37
economy.
49:37 – 49:38
Oh, it absolutely does.
49:38 – 49:39
I
49:40 – 49:40
don't know.
49:41 – 49:44
I had the opportunity to sit on
49:44 – 49:44
a
49:45 – 49:47
the farm credits board of
49:47 – 49:48
directors.
49:48 – 49:49
And so we have these
49:49 – 49:50
conversations a lot.
49:50 – 49:51
And, you know, of course, I get
49:51 – 49:52
a different perspective.
49:52 – 49:54
I get a perspective from the
49:54 – 49:55
banking industry.
49:55 – 49:56
how they look at things.
49:56 – 49:57
But,
49:57 – 49:58
you know,
49:59 – 50:00
to me,
50:00 – 50:01
it can't,
50:02 – 50:03
how does it sustain itself?
50:03 – 50:04
I mean, like, let's just take
50:04 – 50:05
conventional cotton.
50:07 – 50:08
Conventional cotton, Rydell, is
50:08 – 50:10
trading in the 60s.
50:10 – 50:11
It's 65 cents,
50:12 – 50:13
64 cents.
50:14 – 50:15
John, that's what my granddad
50:15 – 50:16
sold it for in the 70s.
50:16 – 50:18
And the cost of production last
50:18 – 50:19
they checked was like 80 cents
50:19 – 50:21
plus for conventional cotton.
50:21 – 50:23
Yes. And when I told you all go,
50:23 – 50:25
30 years ago on dryland cotton,
50:25 – 50:26
they were making the same yield
50:26 – 50:27
we're making today.
50:27 – 50:28
Right.
50:28 – 50:30
I mean, so the economics are not
50:31 – 50:32
making sense.
50:33 – 50:34
And
50:33 – 50:35
and I've seen her constantly
50:35 – 50:36
thinking like something doesn't
50:36 – 50:38
I mean, I said, but it wasn't
50:38 – 50:38
for the government.
50:39 – 50:41
And like I said, we're blessed
50:41 – 50:42
that we live in the United
50:42 – 50:42
States of America.
50:42 – 50:43
We're blessed that our
50:43 – 50:45
government does value
50:45 – 50:45
agriculture.
50:46 – 50:47
But at the same time, have we
50:47 – 50:49
created a system that
50:52 – 50:53
is inflated,
50:53 – 50:55
you know, I mean, that's a word
50:55 – 50:56
I'm trying to think of, or where
50:56 – 50:58
it's not reality, because of the
50:58 – 50:59
support for sure,
51:00 – 51:00
distorted. Yeah,
51:01 – 51:03
you know, and and that's where I
51:03 – 51:04
don't know. And that I said,
51:05 – 51:06
everybody's got to come to that
51:06 – 51:07
own personal decision.
51:07 – 51:08
But for me,
51:08 – 51:09
those are the questions that I'm
51:09 – 51:11
asking myself. And like I said,
51:11 – 51:12
as I continue down this
51:12 – 51:13
regenerative journey, and I
51:13 – 51:14
continue studying and reading
51:14 – 51:16
and looking at our context, I'm
51:16 – 51:17
like, man,
51:17 – 51:18
where I farm,
51:19 – 51:20
to me,
51:21 – 51:22
It was a short prairie grass for
51:22 – 51:23
a reason.
51:23 – 51:25
It sustained buffalo for, you
51:25 – 51:26
know,
51:27 – 51:28
however long.
51:30 – 51:32
Yeah, you know, and if I can get
51:32 – 51:32
to that point,
51:33 – 51:35
that's the direction I'm trying
51:35 – 51:36
to get to.
51:36 – 51:37
You know, there's an interesting
51:37 – 51:39
anecdote that I think ties back
51:39 – 51:40
to your production of livestock
51:40 – 51:41
and the conversation we've been
51:41 – 51:43
having about economics.
51:43 – 51:45
We've had part of the reason why
51:45 – 51:47
we have this this federal policy
51:47 – 51:49
distortion around agriculture is
51:49 – 51:51
because we have
51:52 – 51:54
a clearly defined and very
51:54 – 51:57
explicit cheap food policy that
51:57 – 51:59
has been the policy ever since
51:59 – 52:01
Franklin Roosevelt's green or
52:01 – 52:03
not the Green New Deal, but the
52:03 – 52:04
New Deal.
52:04 – 52:07
If you remember his his campaign
52:07 – 52:08
slogan, I think for his second
52:08 – 52:10
term was a chicken in every pot.
52:11 – 52:12
Why a chicken in every pot?
52:12 – 52:13
Because at that moment in
52:13 – 52:14
history,
52:14 – 52:16
chicken was the expensive meat.
52:16 – 52:18
because chicken required grain.
52:19 – 52:20
Beef was inexpensive.
52:20 – 52:22
It was a lot less expensive to
52:22 – 52:22
produce beef than it was to
52:22 – 52:24
produce chicken because they
52:24 – 52:25
were just grazing and producing
52:25 – 52:26
on rangeland.
52:27 – 52:28
And
52:28 – 52:30
so there's this
52:31 – 52:34
political economic phrase
52:34 – 52:36
or slogan that you're three
52:36 – 52:37
square meals away from a
52:37 – 52:38
revolution.
52:39 – 52:40
And so it is the interest in the
52:40 – 52:42
interests of a government in
52:42 – 52:42
power
52:42 – 52:46
to maintain abundant food and
52:46 – 52:47
cheap food.
52:47 – 52:49
And that has been the incentive.
52:50 – 52:52
for the last 80 years,
52:52 – 52:54
and that has created distortion
52:54 – 52:56
that was appropriate for a
52:56 – 52:57
period of time, but we're
52:57 – 52:58
approaching a point where the
52:58 – 53:00
degree of distortion is becoming
53:00 – 53:02
so extreme that it's obvious
53:02 – 53:03
it's going to fracture at some
53:03 – 53:04
point.
53:04 – 53:06
Yeah, I totally agree.
53:06 – 53:07
And,
53:08 – 53:09
you know, a lot of it's not
53:09 – 53:10
growing, going to food.
53:11 – 53:13
I mean, I mean, yeah, I guess
53:13 – 53:14
you could say, you know,
53:14 – 53:15
feedlots,
53:16 – 53:17
cattle production, maybe, but I
53:17 – 53:19
mean, a lot of this is going
53:19 – 53:19
into
53:20 – 53:21
not food.
53:21 – 53:22
I mean,
53:22 – 53:23
you know, I grow a fiber.
53:24 – 53:25
I believe in a natural fiber.
53:26 – 53:27
I grew, I do believe there's a
53:27 – 53:28
spot for it. But you know, it's,
53:29 – 53:29
it's,
53:30 – 53:31
I don't know.
53:32 – 53:33
I don't know.
53:33 – 53:33
It's gonna be interesting to see
53:33 – 53:35
where it goes. And I think, you
53:35 – 53:36
know, I think people are
53:36 – 53:37
starting to get aware of it.
53:37 – 53:38
I do think, you know, a lot of
53:38 – 53:39
people are starting to ask the
53:39 – 53:40
right questions.
53:41 – 53:43
You know, a lot of people,
53:43 – 53:45
you know, like yourself and Gabe
53:45 – 53:46
Brown, and a lot of people are
53:46 – 53:49
bringing some things to the
53:49 – 53:51
forefront that need to be
53:51 – 53:52
discussed.
53:54 – 53:55
But yeah, it's
53:56 – 53:58
interesting times, John, in
53:58 – 54:00
agriculture. I see so many
54:00 – 54:01
farmers that are hurting,
54:01 – 54:03
and not just in my area,
54:04 – 54:05
all across the
54:05 – 54:08
country.
54:10 – 54:11
I
54:11 – 54:12
don't know.
54:13 – 54:14
I have a question for you on
54:14 – 54:15
that because I see the same
54:15 – 54:17
thing and we all, we have,
54:18 – 54:19
we have sympathy for people who
54:19 – 54:21
are in a difficult spot because
54:21 – 54:24
I've experienced those and I'm
54:24 – 54:25
sure many people have.
54:26 – 54:27
Um,
54:28 – 54:29
but when, when you are in a
54:29 – 54:30
difficult spot like that, what,
54:30 – 54:32
what is the, what is the
54:32 – 54:33
appetite that
54:34 – 54:37
you are observing for thinking
54:37 – 54:38
about perhaps doing things
54:38 – 54:39
differently?
54:39 – 54:42
Is it greater or less because of
54:42 – 54:43
the difficult spot that people
54:43 – 54:44
find themselves in?
54:45 – 54:47
Yeah, for me, I have a greater.
54:48 – 54:50
desire to change and do things
54:50 – 54:52
differently. And I think that's
54:52 – 54:52
probably
54:53 – 54:54
why my journey has
54:55 – 54:56
been the way that it has,
54:56 – 54:58
because I think I said this at
54:58 – 54:59
our event in Lubbock.
55:00 – 55:01
I saw my dad.
55:01 – 55:03
My dad went broke in farming.
55:03 – 55:05
I saw that. I was in college.
55:05 – 55:07
I helped him set up his auction.
55:08 – 55:11
And so when I got back into it,
55:11 – 55:12
I already had this idea of, man,
55:12 – 55:13
I got to figure out something
55:13 – 55:14
different because I don't want
55:14 – 55:15
to be there.
55:16 – 55:17
And that's where I
55:18 – 55:19
You know, even even on the 1st,
55:19 – 55:20
couple of years there, I was
55:20 – 55:21
starting to try to read and
55:21 – 55:23
study and do some things
55:23 – 55:23
differently.
55:23 – 55:25
But, um,
55:25 – 55:26
you know, when you've
55:26 – 55:27
experienced that, or you've gone
55:27 – 55:29
through difficult times, it
55:29 – 55:32
hopefully it, it gets you hungry
55:32 – 55:34
to change, you know, to do the
55:34 – 55:35
things a little different.
55:35 – 55:36
But I
55:37 – 55:39
say that and I see a lot of guys
55:39 – 55:40
in my area.
55:40 – 55:41
I can't speak for other areas,
55:41 – 55:42
but in my area, they're just,
55:43 – 55:44
they're not changing.
55:44 – 55:45
They're just,
55:45 – 55:46
well, the government's going to
55:46 – 55:47
send us some more money.
55:47 – 55:48
And it's this attitude of,
55:49 – 55:51
you know, I don't know, they
55:51 – 55:52
keep doing the same thing.
55:53 – 55:54
You know, that's a definition of
55:54 – 55:55
insanity.
55:55 – 55:56
And so I'm like, I don't know.
55:56 – 55:57
It's,
55:57 – 56:01
it's, and I,
56:01 – 56:02
and I don't want to paint a
56:02 – 56:03
picture, John, either that,
56:03 – 56:04
you know, it's, it's been tough
56:04 – 56:05
for me too.
56:05 – 56:06
I mean, when you're, when you
56:06 – 56:07
start going against the grain
56:07 – 56:08
and you're,
56:08 – 56:09
you start trying to do things
56:09 – 56:10
different. At times you take a
56:10 – 56:12
risk. And I've taken some risks.
56:12 – 56:13
There's a lot of
56:13 – 56:14
experimentation.
56:14 – 56:15
There's a lot of learning the
56:15 – 56:15
hard way.
56:16 – 56:16
It is the hard way.
56:17 – 56:18
Absolutely.
56:18 – 56:19
It is.
56:19 – 56:20
You know, but and that's one of
56:20 – 56:21
the things I,
56:21 – 56:21
you know, I tell people a lot of
56:21 – 56:23
times, you know, Gabe's book,
56:23 – 56:25
Dirt to Soil, the reason why it
56:25 – 56:26
resonated with me was because he
56:26 – 56:27
tells the story of those,
56:28 – 56:29
what, three crop failures that
56:29 – 56:30
he had.
56:30 – 56:32
He owed the bank a lot of money
56:32 – 56:33
and that really began his
56:33 – 56:34
journey of like, I've got to
56:34 – 56:36
come up with a different way of
56:36 – 56:37
doing this. And a lot of times
56:37 – 56:38
when you don't have the money,
56:38 – 56:39
you don't have a choice.
56:39 – 56:40
I can't do it.
56:40 – 56:41
I don't have the money.
56:41 – 56:43
And, uh, and I, I've experienced
56:43 – 56:44
that too.
56:44 – 56:45
I mean, 2019 was one of those
56:45 – 56:46
years where,
56:46 – 56:47
uh,
56:48 – 56:49
I would say in my early journey
56:49 – 56:52
of regenerative agriculture, I
56:52 – 56:53
really bought into the no -till
56:53 – 56:54
movement and I was really
56:54 – 56:56
focusing on yield and, uh, and
56:56 – 56:57
all this stuff.
56:57 – 56:59
And in 2019,
57:00 – 57:02
I had a really bad year.
57:02 – 57:04
And kind of that's really
57:04 – 57:06
probably when I changed into low
57:06 – 57:07
input.
57:07 – 57:09
What is my context?
57:10 – 57:10
You
57:11 – 57:11
know, farming.
57:12 – 57:14
And, you know, I think everybody
57:14 – 57:15
kind of has those moments
57:15 – 57:16
probably at times.
57:20 – 57:22
Well, may we all live the best
57:22 – 57:23
version of living in interesting
57:23 – 57:25
times and not the worst version.
57:25 – 57:26
Yeah.
57:28 – 57:29
Yeah.
57:30 – 57:31
Wonderful. Well, Jeremy, I
57:31 – 57:32
really enjoyed this
57:32 – 57:33
conversation. Thank you for
57:33 – 57:34
being willing to join.
57:35 – 57:36
to share your story and all the
57:36 – 57:37
great things that you're working
57:37 – 57:38
on.
57:38 – 57:39
Well, thank you.
57:39 – 57:40
I appreciate the opportunity and
57:40 – 57:42
hopefully it encourages somebody
57:42 – 57:45
and at least somebody maybe see
57:45 – 57:46
things a little different.
57:46 – 57:47
And like
57:47 – 57:48
I said, we're all learning as we
57:48 – 57:50
go here and trying to figure it
57:50 – 57:51
out and
57:51 – 57:53
trusting God's guidance and his
57:53 – 57:55
wisdom to help us to do it.
57:56 – 57:57
Indeed.
57:57 – 57:58
Well, thank you.
57:58 – 57:59
And for all of our listeners,
58:00 – 58:01
may you have a great growing
58:01 – 58:02
season. May you have abundant
58:02 – 58:04
rains. May they come at the
58:04 – 58:05
right time. May you capture all
58:05 – 58:06
of them.
58:06 – 58:07
And let's talk again soon.
