Cole Mannix is a multi-generational rancher from central and western Montana who serves as the founder of Old Salt, a vertically integrated startup enterprise. Coming from a background rooted in mountain grazing and extensive holistic management, Cole spent decades working alongside his family and regional producers to optimize ecological function, riparian health, and predator coexistence on their expansive home landscapes.
Recognizing the vulnerabilities ranching families face as processing and retail channels become increasingly consolidated, Cole launched Old Salt to construct an alternative ecosystem of localized market power. Under his leadership, Old Salt has grown to incorporate a membership of ranches operating alongside processing hubs, a direct e-commerce engine, local restaurants, and an annual community festival hosted directly on his family’s ranch. Cole is dedicated to creating experiential, relational marketplaces that adequately reward producers, support active workforce ownership, and increase the sheer volume of passionate hearts and hands managing the landscape.
In this episode, John and Cole discuss:
- How Cole engineered an LLC model with cooperative principles to access external capital without risking members’ family lands.
- Constructing a vertically integrated market to disrupt highly consolidated, downstream corporate meat packing and processing monopolies.
- Establishing regional slaughter facilities and custom restaurants to stabilize profit margins and balance animal carcasses locally.
- Rerouting financial value directly back upstream to give independent ranchers viable financial alternatives to commodity supply chains.
- Why integrating livestock back into modern cropping systems is restricted by structural barriers like missing fences and scarce water infrastructure.
- Creating parallel government incentive programs focused on funding active farm labor rather than subsidizing crop insurance yields.
Additional Resources
To learn more about Cole’s ranch, please visit: mannixbeef.com
To learn more about Old Salt Co Op, please visit: oldsaltco-op.com/
About John Kempf
John Kempf is the founder of Advancing Eco Agriculture (AEA). A top expert in biological and regenerative farming, John founded AEA in 2006 to help fellow farmers by providing the education, tools, and strategies that will have a global effect on the food supply and those who grow it.
Through intense study and the knowledge gleaned from many industry leaders, John is building a comprehensive systems-based approach to plant nutrition – a system solidly based on the sciences of plant physiology, mineral nutrition, and soil microbiology.
Support For This Show & Helping You Grow
Since 2006, AEA has been on a mission to help growers become more resilient, efficient, and profitable with regenerative agriculture. AEA works directly with growers to apply its unique line of liquid mineral crop nutrition products and biological inoculants. Informed by cutting-edge plant and soil data-gathering techniques, AEA’s science-based programs empower farm operations to meet the crop quality markers that matter the most.
AEA has created real and lasting change on millions of acres with its products and data-driven services by working hand-in-hand with growers to produce healthier soil, stronger crops, and higher profits.
Beyond working on the ground with growers, AEA leads in regenerative agriculture media and education, producing and distributing the popular and highly-regarded Regenerative Agriculture Podcast, inspiring webinars, and other educational content that serve as go-to resources for growers worldwide.
Learn more about AEA’s regenerative programs and products: https://www.advancingecoag.com
Podcast Transcript
0:00 – 0:01
Hi, friends. This is John.
0:01 – 0:03
Welcome to the Regenerative Agriculture
0:03 – 0:05
Podcast, where we have all kinds of
0:05 – 0:06
conversations related to improving soil
0:06 – 0:08
health and improving plant health,
0:08 – 0:09
improving livestock health, and
0:09 – 0:11
ultimately, of course, improving people's
0:11 – 0:13
health and improving and being good
0:13 – 0:14
stewards of the landscape and the
0:14 – 0:16
ecosystem that we're responsible for
0:16 – 0:17
managing.
0:17 – 0:19
I'm here today with Cole Mannix, who is
0:19 – 0:21
someone I had the privilege of meeting a
0:21 – 0:23
couple of years ago at, I think, perhaps
0:23 – 0:25
your first or maybe your second festival
0:25 – 0:28
that you hosted. And I've really
0:28 – 0:31
admired the work. That you've been doing
0:31 – 0:34
with the meat processing and the, I don't
0:34 – 0:36
particularly care for the phrase, the
0:36 – 0:37
community organization, but the way that
0:37 – 0:39
you've been bringing people together.
0:39 – 0:41
So I want to say thank you for being here.
0:41 – 0:42
Thanks for all the work that you're doing.
0:42 – 0:45
And can you give us some perspective on
0:45 – 0:47
the scope of the various enterprises and
0:47 – 0:49
the various things that you're working on?
0:50 – 0:52
Yeah. Thanks for having me, John.
0:52 – 0:52
It's a pleasure to be here.
0:53 – 0:57
So Old Salt started in the conversations
0:57 – 1:00
in 2020, and then we formed the,
1:00 – 1:03
an entity in 2021 today, the purpose
1:03 – 1:07
of the business is to create a
1:07 – 1:09
marketplace that regenerates land and
1:09 – 1:10
community.
1:10 – 1:14
And the way we're a membership
1:14 – 1:17
of ranches and workers in a
1:17 – 1:21
parent company that then owns these
1:21 – 1:24
subsidiaries a couple of restaurants now,
1:24 – 1:28
a couple of small processing facilities.
1:28 – 1:29
One is a slaughter.
1:29 – 1:30
And further processing facility.
1:30 – 1:33
And the other is where we pack some ecomm
1:33 – 1:34
orders. And we do some commissary kitchen
1:33 – 1:36
work. And we have a curing chamber that
1:36 – 1:39
we're trying to get under USDA inspection
1:39 – 1:41
right now. That one is right here in
1:41 – 1:44
Helena, where kind of our home base is and
1:44 – 1:44
where I live.
1:45 – 1:49
And then we run e commerce meat business
1:49 – 1:51
wholesale to small independent grocers and
1:51 – 1:55
restaurants and a little bit of food
1:55 – 1:55
service.
1:56 – 1:58
We do a little bit of processing for other
1:58 – 1:59
farms and ranches.
1:59 – 2:02
And yeah, I can't remember if we.
2:02 – 2:04
And, uh, and, uh, yeah, I can't remember
2:04 – 2:05
if we mentioned, I mentioned Old Salt
2:05 – 2:07
Festival, but that's an event that we hold
2:07 – 2:08
on my family's ranch every year.
2:08 – 2:11
Um, the last three years coming on year
2:11 – 2:13
four, just usually on the summer solstice.
2:13 – 2:15
And that's so it's coming up next week.
2:15 – 2:16
So we're preparing for that.
2:17 – 2:19
So Old Salt is a pretty young business
2:19 – 2:21
that's not yet proven.
2:21 – 2:23
You know, we're a startup, we're not in
2:23 – 2:26
the black, we're trying to do something
2:26 – 2:27
hard and that feels worthwhile.
2:28 – 2:31
Uh, The founding ranches included my
2:31 – 2:33
family's operation and two other
2:33 – 2:35
relatively large Montana cattle ranches
2:35 – 2:38
that are pretty unfamiliar with farming.
2:39 – 2:41
You know, we're mostly mountain grazing,
2:41 – 2:43
put up some hay to get through the
2:43 – 2:44
winters.
2:44 – 2:48
But we're, I would say, about two hours
2:48 – 2:50
radius from Helena, Montana.
2:50 – 2:53
So we're kind of central and western
2:53 – 2:56
Montana. And those three ranches had all
2:56 – 2:58
experienced how challenging the meat
2:58 – 3:01
business is by trying to start up their
3:01 – 3:05
own little brands, kind of 2004, 2000.
3:05 – 3:08
And the next 10 to 15 years,
3:08 – 3:11
we all had had experiences of mostly
3:11 – 3:14
our operations sell calves and yearlings
3:14 – 3:16
to the commodity markets.
3:17 – 3:20
We had all tried to kind of set up our own
3:20 – 3:22
brand or participate in other brands and
3:22 – 3:24
hadn't quite figured out how to get it to
3:24 – 3:25
work.
3:25 – 3:28
So we met in the fall of 2020.
3:28 – 3:32
And I think our story was a little bit
3:32 – 3:35
unique in the fact that the ranches at the
3:35 – 3:36
time, were profitable.
3:36 – 3:37
They had been doing regenerative
3:36 – 3:38
practices. You know, it's a continuum, not
3:38 – 3:42
a bright line, but they had been working
3:42 – 3:45
for 30, 40 years to understand the right
3:45 – 3:48
cadence of impact and rest on different
3:48 – 3:51
types of ground that we manage and, you
3:51 – 3:55
know, go into a whole going to a whole
3:55 – 3:58
bunch of meetings and conferences that are
3:58 – 4:01
part of the holistic management or Alan
4:01 – 4:03
Savory Network, and learning about soil
4:03 – 4:05
health, plant health.
4:05 – 4:07
And riparian health, and working on
4:07 – 4:10
streams and how can we manage riparian
4:10 – 4:14
areas to respect the fishery, and how can
4:14 – 4:17
we live with wolves and grizzly bears
4:17 – 4:21
without just getting mad and just using a
4:21 – 4:24
gun or violence to solve our problems.
4:24 – 4:26
How can we manage our own operations to
4:26 – 4:27
fit into the landscape?
4:27 – 4:28
Rather than dominating it.
4:29 – 4:30
And each ranch was also.
4:30 – 4:33
So each ranch felt like it could say that
4:33 – 4:35
we were on a better ecological, in a
4:35 – 4:37
better ecological state at the time than
4:37 – 4:38
we had been 20 years ago.
4:39 – 4:42
And the economics were working.
4:42 – 4:44
However, we were all concerned about
4:44 – 4:46
looking out a generation beyond us.
4:47 – 4:50
We saw producers continuing to lose,
4:50 – 4:54
you know, power and resiliency in
4:54 – 4:57
the marketplace as things downstream of
4:57 – 5:01
the ranch gate, like processing and
5:01 – 5:03
distribution. And retail become kind of
5:03 – 5:05
more tightly controlled.
5:06 – 5:08
And so we decided to try to innovate and
5:08 – 5:11
set up our own way of getting product to
5:11 – 5:13
market and our own set of relationships
5:13 – 5:15
with customers. So that's what Old Salt
5:15 – 5:16
is.
5:17 – 5:19
You mentioned that the organizational
5:19 – 5:22
structure, the business structure is a
5:22 – 5:25
cooperative of employees and various
5:25 – 5:26
enterprises.
5:26 – 5:28
Tell us a little bit about.
5:28 – 5:30
What the structure looks like and the
5:30 – 5:31
philosophy behind that.
5:31 – 5:33
That doesn't sound like something that's
5:33 – 5:33
particularly common.
5:33 – 5:34
How did you arrive at that place?
5:36 – 5:39
We started life as a cooperative in
5:39 – 5:41
Montana. It's called a Chapter 15
5:41 – 5:42
Cooperative Association.
5:42 – 5:45
And we no longer have that structure.
5:45 – 5:47
Today, we're actually an LLC that has
5:47 – 5:50
cooperative principles sort of built into
5:50 – 5:51
the operating agreement.
5:52 – 5:53
And there's a couple of reasons for that.
5:53 – 5:56
One is that the cooperative structure does
5:56 – 5:59
not really allow you to raise money
5:59 – 6:01
outside of the producer base very
6:01 – 6:02
effectively.
6:02 – 6:05
The other challenge is that some of the
6:05 – 6:07
tax benefits that come with cooperatives
6:07 – 6:10
usually didn't apply to us very well when
6:10 – 6:13
we have this vertical integration because
6:13 – 6:15
we have such different businesses.
6:15 – 6:17
A festival is so different than a meat
6:17 – 6:19
manufacturing facility, and that's so
6:19 – 6:20
different than a restaurant.
6:20 – 6:23
And so, for example, all of our workers
6:23 – 6:26
can become members of the business where
6:26 – 6:29
they can be elected to 49 of the board.
6:29 – 6:30
We call it Class B ownership.
6:31 – 6:34
But most of the workers don't want that.
6:34 – 6:36
You know, they might be going to college
6:36 – 6:38
and flipping burgers at the outpost.
6:39 – 6:41
And so it became really administratively
6:41 – 6:43
complex to track which labor counted as
6:43 – 6:46
patronage and which labor did not count as
6:46 – 6:48
patronage. And in the same way, we have
6:48 – 6:51
these two restaurants and we're working on
6:51 – 6:51
several more.
6:52 – 6:54
And at the restaurants, our meat could
6:54 – 6:56
count as patronage because it comes from
6:56 – 6:59
our members, but the lettuce and the other
6:59 – 7:01
things on the menu don't come from our
7:01 – 7:03
members. And so it became administratively
7:03 – 7:06
burdensome. So we simply formed an LLC
7:06 – 7:09
that has these four classes.
7:09 – 7:11
Producers are class A and they control 51
7:11 – 7:12
of the board.
7:13 – 7:15
And we're built, if we grow demand, that
7:15 – 7:17
we will add more producers over time.
7:17 – 7:20
Workers are class B and that's 49 of our
7:20 – 7:21
board. Investors are class C.
7:21 – 7:23
They don't have a board seat, but they
7:23 – 7:26
get. All the distributions, if and when
7:26 – 7:28
there are distributions until they get
7:28 – 7:31
realize a certain IRR return on their
7:31 – 7:32
money.
7:32 – 7:35
And then the fourth class is essentially
7:35 – 7:37
for employees. It's sort of an equity
7:37 – 7:39
class for people that I can't afford to
7:39 – 7:42
pay market to today, but who might be able
7:42 – 7:44
to build a nest egg for tomorrow.
7:45 – 7:47
So, yeah, we knew we were going to have to
7:47 – 7:48
raise a lot of money.
7:48 – 7:50
We didn't have access to custom
7:50 – 7:51
processing. And so, you know, the cold
7:51 – 7:53
storage, all the things you Need to get
7:53 – 7:54
meat to market is capital intensive.
7:54 – 7:57
We really didn't have that capital
7:57 – 8:00
from the producer base.
8:00 – 8:01
So we knew we were going to need to access
8:01 – 8:02
a lot of that.
8:02 – 8:05
That's why we changed from being a
8:05 – 8:07
cooperative association to being an old
8:07 – 8:10
salt co op LLC, is to be able to access
8:10 – 8:13
capital. And then we also agreed at the
8:13 – 8:16
beginning that none of the ranches would
8:16 – 8:19
be willing to use their land, their family
8:19 – 8:20
lands, to guarantee loans.
8:20 – 8:23
They were very clear about that.
8:23 – 8:25
They had all experienced failure in trying
8:25 – 8:28
to innovate in the meat space, and they
8:28 – 8:29
knew how risky it was.
8:30 – 8:33
And so that meant we had to find debt that
8:33 – 8:35
would not require personal guarantees from
8:35 – 8:36
the ranch members.
8:36 – 8:39
And that was a huge component of steward
8:39 – 8:41
lending, which was a crowdfunding lending
8:41 – 8:43
platform that required a corporate
8:43 – 8:45
guarantee from the business, but not, and
8:45 – 8:48
it required assets to back up the loan,
8:48 – 8:50
but it did not require guarantees from the
8:50 – 8:52
ranch families of their land.
8:52 – 8:55
And so we've just tried to put together
8:55 – 8:58
something that would allow us to access
8:58 – 9:01
the capital we would need, but still kept
9:01 – 9:03
producers and workers being the primary
9:03 – 9:05
beneficiaries of any success that the
9:05 – 9:08
whole marketplace that we're trying to
9:08 – 9:08
build has.
9:09 – 9:12
And, you know, from my perspective, one of
9:12 – 9:16
the problems of business is that if you're
9:16 – 9:19
a packer or a meat brand, you have an
9:19 – 9:23
incentive to buy livestock at as low as
9:23 – 9:24
you can.
9:25 – 9:27
And ultimately, the business's objective,
9:27 – 9:30
as designed, is to return money to
9:30 – 9:31
shareholders.
9:31 – 9:33
And so that's also true on the
9:33 – 9:36
distribution side, and it's also true on
9:36 – 9:39
the retail side. And what that creates
9:39 – 9:42
ultimately is kind of squeezing producers
9:42 – 9:45
as low as they can go on
9:45 – 9:49
a margin, and it results in concentration
9:49 – 9:50
of power downstream.
9:52 – 9:53
And I think there'll be.
9:53 – 9:56
You know, from the perspective of the
9:56 – 9:59
marketplace, I'm interested in sending
9:59 – 10:02
value back upstream where it's created
10:02 – 10:05
because I think good stewardship, good
10:05 – 10:08
care of things requires time and talent
10:08 – 10:11
applied over time and iteration through
10:11 – 10:12
failure.
10:13 – 10:15
And, you know, you need not just margin,
10:15 – 10:16
but you need options.
10:16 – 10:19
For processing your animal and getting it
10:19 – 10:22
to market. And you need to be able to
10:22 – 10:24
build your own set of relationships with
10:24 – 10:26
customers rather than that being mediated
10:26 – 10:28
through what can be a very big anonymous
10:28 – 10:29
supply chain.
10:29 – 10:32
Yeah, I've heard you say before actually
10:32 – 10:35
that, you know, regenerating soil is
10:35 – 10:38
really about managing a series of
10:38 – 10:40
relationships between root systems and
10:40 – 10:41
micro critters.
10:41 – 10:45
And I think that also, like, one of the
10:45 – 10:46
biggest lessons of the environmental
10:46 – 10:49
movement, perhaps, is that we don't really
10:49 – 10:51
have environmental problems, we have
10:51 – 10:52
people problems.
10:53 – 10:55
And so the way that our human
10:55 – 10:57
relationships work and our business
10:57 – 11:00
relationships work, the rest of the food
11:00 – 11:03
system downstream of the actual soil and
11:03 – 11:06
plants and water is, in my mind, just as
11:06 – 11:07
important.
11:07 – 11:09
Those relationships, restoring those
11:09 – 11:13
relationships, if we're going to also
11:13 – 11:15
honor the natural world.
11:16 – 11:19
I want to touch on or dig deeper into this
11:19 – 11:22
point because when you said that we have a
11:22 – 11:23
people problem, you know, sometimes.
11:23 – 11:26
We have this human tendency of hearing
11:26 – 11:30
what we want to hear or having
11:30 – 11:31
preconceived ideas.
11:31 – 11:33
What you're suggesting is not that we have
11:33 – 11:36
a problem of people, that we have too many
11:36 – 11:39
people or too few or whatever the case
11:39 – 11:41
might be, but that we have a problem of
11:41 – 11:42
relationships between people and
11:42 – 11:44
relationships between the ecosystems that
11:44 – 11:45
they are stewarding.
11:46 – 11:47
Yeah, I think unfortunately, the
11:47 – 11:49
environment movement could kind of tend to
11:49 – 11:50
go, you know, especially when I was
11:50 – 11:53
growing up and there was the range wars in
11:53 – 11:55
the West over whether we could graze on
11:55 – 11:57
public lands or whether cattle were a bad
11:57 – 11:58
thing overall.
11:58 – 12:00
If you read things like the Monkey Wrench
12:00 – 12:03
Gang, you know, sort of the idea can be
12:03 – 12:05
like that people are a plague and the only
12:05 – 12:07
way to solve environmental problems are to
12:07 – 12:08
just get rid of us.
12:08 – 12:10
And I'm not sure that's in our interest.
12:11 – 12:14
And we have abundant evidence that, in
12:14 – 12:17
fact, If you remove people from the
12:17 – 12:19
landscape, those landscapes degrade.
12:20 – 12:24
Yeah, I think that it's one of the most
12:24 – 12:27
hopeful things I know of that there is a
12:27 – 12:29
way to be in right relationship with the
12:29 – 12:32
land where we can actually enhance
12:32 – 12:33
ecological function and enhance
12:33 – 12:35
productivity. And that's a beautiful
12:35 – 12:38
thing. It's like the most hopeful thing I
12:38 – 12:39
know of.
12:39 – 12:42
So, when you had started talking about
12:42 – 12:44
relationships and you described in the
12:44 – 12:46
context of strengthening the relationships
12:46 – 12:49
with your customers, and I have, yeah, I
12:49 – 12:51
want to ask about.
12:51 – 12:52
The festival as well.
12:51 – 12:54
But you've mentioned restaurants, you've
12:54 – 12:55
mentioned processing and slaughter
12:55 – 12:58
facility. Can you give us a bit of an
12:58 – 13:00
outline of the scope of the various
13:00 – 13:02
activities that Old Salt is engaged in in
13:02 – 13:03
these various enterprises?
13:04 – 13:07
Yeah, we have about 100 employees today.
13:07 – 13:10
And most of those employees, more than
13:10 – 13:11
half, are at the restaurants.
13:12 – 13:15
22 employees at the slaughter facility and
13:15 – 13:16
further processing facility in Butte,
13:16 – 13:19
Montana, which is about an hour to the
13:19 – 13:22
south of Helena, where I live.
13:22 – 13:25
Two employees at a small processing plant
13:25 – 13:29
in Helena, and then the rest is
13:29 – 13:31
marketing and finance and corporate
13:31 – 13:34
employees. We have told ourselves that we
13:34 – 13:37
have a goal of nine more restaurant retail
13:37 – 13:40
locations in the next three years, and all
13:40 – 13:42
of those would be in Montana.
13:42 – 13:45
And on one hand, they're a way to balance
13:45 – 13:48
all the pieces of the carcass and find a
13:48 – 13:51
home for those, especially in a time.
13:51 – 13:54
When it's hard to grow red meat on a
13:54 – 13:55
wholesale basis with a decent margin
13:55 – 13:57
because the price of livestock is just
13:57 – 14:00
hugely inflated because of a low supply.
14:01 – 14:05
And we think it might be a little
14:05 – 14:08
bit easier to grow if we also control
14:08 – 14:11
the menu and the menu concept.
14:11 – 14:14
And if we do a really good job of
14:14 – 14:16
operating restaurants in the right
14:16 – 14:17
markets, then perhaps restaurants aren't
14:17 – 14:20
easy either. So we have to be good at
14:20 – 14:21
managing people and systems.
14:21 – 14:24
And however, the restaurant, if it
14:24 – 14:27
works, it does create profit.
14:28 – 14:30
And it's also a bit of an advertisement
14:30 – 14:32
for the online brand.
14:32 – 14:34
And it's also a place where our customers
14:34 – 14:36
can pick up their order without the
14:36 – 14:38
shipping and the dry ice and the
14:38 – 14:40
insulation that you need when you send it
14:40 – 14:41
in the mail.
14:41 – 14:43
We don't particularly like.
14:43 – 14:45
It. One of my dreams would be if we could
14:45 – 14:47
just get rid of social media entirely.
14:49 – 14:52
And so, but you still have to be able to,
14:52 – 14:54
you know, for customers to know about you.
14:54 – 14:57
And so we are still working to build the
14:57 – 15:00
right sales process at the level of the
15:00 – 15:02
restaurant so that people know oh, this
15:02 – 15:04
restaurant is a node that is connected to
15:04 – 15:05
a broader marketplace.
15:05 – 15:09
And if you are attracted Or you had a good
15:09 – 15:11
meal and you're interested in what else
15:11 – 15:14
Old Salt does, go to the website and order
15:14 – 15:15
meat for your family.
15:16 – 15:19
And you can pick it up here for a
15:19 – 15:20
significant discount on your order.
15:21 – 15:23
So that's kind of the idea.
15:23 – 15:25
So far, we've had one restaurant that has
15:25 – 15:27
worked quite well and the other one that
15:27 – 15:28
does not yet work.
15:29 – 15:31
And so, you know, we also know that that's
15:31 – 15:34
not a simple path, but we are, we don't, I
15:34 – 15:37
would say another thing is that we just
15:37 – 15:37
are.
15:38 – 15:41
I think a lot of the claims
15:41 – 15:45
about product attributes, it's, I think a
15:45 – 15:48
lot of them miss the point.
15:48 – 15:52
So it might be claims about
15:52 – 15:55
nutrient density, it might be claim
15:55 – 15:56
certifications.
15:57 – 16:01
Sometimes those are third party seals and
16:01 – 16:03
sometimes they're just claims.
16:04 – 16:07
I think that world can be very fraught and
16:07 – 16:08
sometimes can miss the point.
16:08 – 16:11
And so, to be able to market outside of
16:11 – 16:13
the digital realm where it's more
16:13 – 16:15
experiential through a restaurant, through
16:15 – 16:18
curating a space where you serve people,
16:18 – 16:20
through a festival, by getting people in
16:20 – 16:23
person, I'm just attracted a little bit
16:23 – 16:25
more by that way of marketing than a
16:25 – 16:26
purely digital existence.
16:26 – 16:30
And so, the more we can be in person with
16:30 – 16:32
people, I think the better chance we have
16:32 – 16:34
of really building some authentic level of
16:34 – 16:35
trust.
16:36 – 16:38
I talk on other, at other times, I've
16:38 – 16:40
talked with people about the movement of
16:40 – 16:43
our industry to boxed beef, where no
16:43 – 16:45
longer did grocery stores tend to have
16:45 – 16:47
their own butcher teams, but they sort of
16:47 – 16:50
became just a repository to receive boxed
16:50 – 16:53
meat and to put it out on the shelf.
16:53 – 16:55
And I think there was a lot lost when you
16:55 – 16:58
lose the butchers in the shop, you lose
16:58 – 16:59
the communication between the butcher and
16:59 – 17:01
the customer, and some of the knowledge
17:01 – 17:03
that comes with them knowing where these
17:03 – 17:05
carcasses came from, having any connection
17:05 – 17:07
to them at all being able to talk to the
17:07 – 17:09
person about how you might prepare it.
17:11 – 17:14
And that is how I think for a long time
17:14 – 17:15
human beings have communicated, even if
17:15 – 17:18
they're not an expert in meat, they can
17:18 – 17:20
kind of gauge whether they trust the
17:20 – 17:21
person they're talking to.
17:21 – 17:24
And they could just multiple points when
17:24 – 17:26
you're a non expert, multiple points of
17:26 – 17:28
reference become really important.
17:29 – 17:30
And you kind of decide whether you trust
17:30 – 17:32
somebody based on whether they bring a lot
17:32 – 17:34
of ego to the table, based on whether they
17:34 – 17:35
seem to exaggerate a lot.
17:36 – 17:37
You know, do you believe the story you're
17:37 – 17:38
telling them?
17:38 – 17:41
And do you see them show up in other ways
17:41 – 17:43
in the community in which you trust or
17:43 – 17:44
not?
17:44 – 17:46
And all those kind of data points, I
17:46 – 17:48
think, are often more important than
17:48 – 17:51
things that can be measured and put in a
17:51 – 17:52
spreadsheet. Yeah.
17:52 – 17:53
Oh, I love this, Cole.
17:53 – 17:55
I'm smiling really widely because, um,
17:55 – 17:57
this whole customer relationship aspect of
17:57 – 18:00
the question that was on the tip of my
18:00 – 18:03
tongue 90 seconds ago that you then went
18:03 – 18:05
on this, uh, this perfect little journey.
18:05 – 18:08
I was going to ask you, um, following up
18:08 – 18:09
on your social media comment.
18:10 – 18:13
If you don't advertise if you don't have
18:13 – 18:14
marketing, digital marketing, or if you
18:14 – 18:16
don't have social media marketing, then
18:16 – 18:18
what does marketing look like exactly?
18:18 – 18:19
And you've already partially answered
18:19 – 18:21
that, but I'm going to ask it again
18:21 – 18:23
because I love your perspective on this
18:23 – 18:23
topic.
18:24 – 18:25
Yeah.
18:25 – 18:28
In addition to, you know, we're not
18:28 – 18:29
particularly good at this yet.
18:29 – 18:32
Like we need to develop a sales process at
18:32 – 18:34
the restaurant level that, you know, we've
18:34 – 18:36
been learning to operate these
18:36 – 18:38
restaurants. And so just figuring out how
18:38 – 18:39
to operate a process restaurant is one.
18:39 – 18:42
And just to market the restaurant itself
18:42 – 18:44
is one thing. And then, once the
18:44 – 18:46
restaurant is nested within this other
18:46 – 18:49
group of businesses, there's a whole other
18:49 – 18:51
layer of sales and pointing people to the
18:51 – 18:53
website. The same with the festival.
18:53 – 18:56
Just to organize that thing is a huge
18:56 – 18:58
learning experience for us, like setting
18:58 – 19:01
up on my family's ranch, no
19:01 – 19:03
infrastructure, no internet signal, no
19:03 – 19:05
cell signal, and 3000 people.
19:05 – 19:07
Like, how do you just do that, let alone
19:07 – 19:09
get good at turning that into an
19:09 – 19:11
experience? Where people naturally
19:11 – 19:14
realize, oh, these guys sell meat.
19:14 – 19:18
And so I still think that these spaces,
19:18 – 19:20
these restaurant spaces and festival
19:20 – 19:23
create an opportunity to market, but I'm
19:23 – 19:26
not sure we're good at implementing that
19:26 – 19:27
yet.
19:27 – 19:30
The other thing I'd say is just, you know,
19:30 – 19:34
there is a camp called Camp Make a Dream
19:34 – 19:36
down the road from Helena towards the
19:36 – 19:39
ranch on a place called Gold Creek, and
19:39 – 19:42
they take cancer kids and adults who have
19:42 – 19:45
had cancer and they bring them out on the
19:45 – 19:47
land. They have, you know, anywhere from
19:47 – 19:51
50 or to 30 participants for a week at a
19:51 – 19:52
time. And they've done this for decades.
19:53 – 19:56
And they have a mailing list of 50000
19:56 – 19:56
people.
19:57 – 19:59
And they have a little lodge where they
19:59 – 20:00
prepare food for folks.
20:00 – 20:02
And they reached out to us about
20:02 – 20:03
wholesaling our meat to them.
20:03 – 20:06
And it's a low enough volume.
20:06 – 20:07
And they're a price sensitive organization
20:07 – 20:10
that it doesn't make a lot of sense as a
20:10 – 20:12
wholesale client. But we were like, yeah,
20:12 – 20:13
I mean, this is great.
20:13 – 20:15
How about we sell you our meat at cost?
20:15 – 20:19
And then we get to share our product
20:19 – 20:21
with your audience base.
20:21 – 20:23
And because they're health oriented and
20:23 – 20:25
they're thinking about how do I eat?
20:26 – 20:29
I think that's an example of just gorilla
20:29 – 20:31
ground, you know, just relationships.
20:31 – 20:35
It's the same with if I think about
20:35 – 20:37
veterans who are coming back from overseas
20:37 – 20:41
and very active, but when they get back
20:41 – 20:44
home, you know, they could sort of, it's
20:44 – 20:47
okay to maybe eat, or at least your body
20:47 – 20:50
doesn't show the consequences of eating
20:50 – 20:52
sugary foods if you're really active.
20:52 – 20:55
But if you get back home, maybe you're
20:55 – 20:57
struggling with diabetes or mental
20:57 – 20:59
illness, or you're feeling fragmented or
20:59 – 21:02
not connected to a community of people.
21:02 – 21:05
And so here's a group of people who are
21:05 – 21:07
serious and they have an idea of service
21:07 – 21:09
and serving something more than
21:09 – 21:12
themselves. And they're interested in
21:12 – 21:15
health. And so here's a group of customers
21:15 – 21:18
who's kind of, and there's all kinds of
21:18 – 21:19
veterans organizations in Montana.
21:20 – 21:22
And so we're, anyway, we're working to
21:22 – 21:23
build relationships in that way.
21:23 – 21:26
A lot of those folks are looking for
21:26 – 21:29
places to have a retreat, to go to an open
21:29 – 21:32
landscape, to get out of the noise of
21:32 – 21:34
urban areas and the noise of digital
21:34 – 21:35
existence.
21:35 – 21:36
And just reconnect with each other.
21:36 – 21:38
And with land. So, anyway, all of these
21:38 – 21:41
things I say as opportunities that we're
21:41 – 21:43
thinking about, but have not yet gotten
21:43 – 21:45
good at using.
21:46 – 21:48
We've mentioned the festival a couple of
21:48 – 21:50
times. What was the original vision for
21:50 – 21:53
the festival and what has it morphed into?
21:54 – 21:54
What has it become?
21:56 – 21:58
Well, I think the original vision was just
21:58 – 21:59
breaking bread together.
21:59 – 22:03
You know, I think we connect with music
22:03 – 22:04
and food and fire.
22:04 – 22:07
I think that's, you know, the Basic level
22:07 – 22:09
of relationship building that human beings
22:09 – 22:12
have, I think, done for a long time.
22:12 – 22:15
And we wanted to, it's hard with the idea
22:15 – 22:18
of ranch tours to how many people am I
22:18 – 22:21
going to reach bringing 20 and 40 people
22:21 – 22:22
at a time?
22:23 – 22:26
What if we could invite people, you know,
22:26 – 22:29
for a few days, you know, a significant
22:29 – 22:31
period of time and to just come be
22:31 – 22:34
together at some greater scale than that?
22:35 – 22:37
And ultimately, agriculture.
22:37 – 22:40
I always used to think that the culture
22:40 – 22:42
within the word agriculture referred to
22:42 – 22:45
culture, but it refers to cultivating.
22:45 – 22:47
But I like to think about it as culture.
22:47 – 22:51
I think human way of seeing the natural
22:51 – 22:54
world and each other and the values that
22:54 – 22:58
are set up around that way of seeing
22:58 – 23:00
that is what really drives everything.
23:01 – 23:03
And so, a better agriculture, a
23:03 – 23:05
regenerative agriculture, is a better
23:05 – 23:06
culture.
23:06 – 23:09
It's a rebuilding of relationships with
23:09 – 23:11
each other and urban and rural.
23:11 – 23:14
Like, if I had, if I could have one hope
23:14 – 23:17
for Old Salt, it would be that we could
23:17 – 23:18
create this little economic system, this
23:18 – 23:21
little example that sort of honored what
23:21 – 23:23
Wendell Berry talks about in his writing.
23:24 – 23:27
Like, how could we build a marketplace
23:27 – 23:29
that reflects that agrarianism that's
23:29 – 23:31
different than the marketplace that I
23:31 – 23:35
think we basically exist in today, which
23:35 – 23:38
where we're losing a lot of farmers and
23:38 – 23:41
ranchers, and where I don't think their
23:41 – 23:44
talent and skill and life passion applied
23:44 – 23:47
to land and place is adequately respected.
23:49 – 23:52
And so the festival is sort of about a new
23:52 – 23:55
way of seeing the land and each other and
23:55 – 23:58
a new culture that can stick in a place
23:58 – 24:01
and make a home, long term home, rather
24:01 – 24:03
than spoiling the nest and moving on, as
24:03 – 24:05
is a bit of history.
24:06 – 24:09
So, what you're describing for the
24:09 – 24:12
festival is not so much a, the intent
24:12 – 24:16
is not to provide an educational platform
24:16 – 24:20
of ranchers to ranchers, but it is really
24:20 – 24:23
for the larger community as a whole.
24:24 – 24:26
That's right. Yeah, I would say we have
24:26 – 24:28
maybe five, like let's say last year,
24:28 – 24:31
maybe five or 600 people who work in
24:31 – 24:32
agriculture or agriculture adjacent.
24:33 – 24:36
You know, they might work on wildlife
24:36 – 24:38
conservation. Or they might work for Trout
24:38 – 24:39
Unlimited.
24:39 – 24:42
And then there's the rest of the folks,
24:42 – 24:45
2500 people or so, who are urban folks
24:45 – 24:48
bringing their kids and interested in
24:48 – 24:51
connecting their kids with something real.
24:52 – 24:54
And so, one of the things that we didn't
24:54 – 24:57
have the first year, but the festival has
24:57 – 24:59
evolved to have is all kinds of little
24:59 – 25:02
talks and panels and poetry and pasture
25:02 – 25:02
walks.
25:03 – 25:05
Demonstrations like we've got butchery
25:05 – 25:07
demonstrations, we have working stock dog
25:07 – 25:09
demonstrations, we have a couple of bird
25:09 – 25:11
walks where Audubon talks about what
25:11 – 25:14
they're learning as they survey birds on
25:14 – 25:16
the property. You know, how many species
25:16 – 25:17
are there?
25:18 – 25:20
What is the, how is the sage, how it not
25:20 – 25:22
sage grouse, but sharp tail grouse
25:22 – 25:23
reintroduction in the valley going?
25:24 – 25:26
And it's just so it's all these little
25:26 – 25:27
experiential touch points.
25:27 – 25:30
And people may have come because they saw
25:30 – 25:33
a band that they wanted to hear or a chef
25:33 – 25:36
that they want to try their food, but they
25:36 – 25:38
often end up connecting with their future
25:38 – 25:40
business partner or they might find their
25:40 – 25:43
next project to fund, or they might be
25:43 – 25:45
running a business that finds their next
25:45 – 25:46
funder.
25:46 – 25:48
And so that kind of networking is probably
25:48 – 25:50
the most powerful part of the festival.
25:51 – 25:53
Across domain networking.
25:53 – 25:54
I love it.
25:54 – 25:58
So, what does, you mentioned some of
25:58 – 26:01
the challenges, no cell phone connection,
26:01 – 26:02
no infrastructure.
26:02 – 26:05
What does the execution of the festival
26:05 – 26:07
look like? How has it evolved over the
26:07 – 26:09
years? And I know there are a number of
26:09 – 26:10
people who are interested in.
26:10 – 26:12
In doing similar things, what advice?
26:12 – 26:12
You have for them?
26:12 – 26:15
Boy, we are still, I'm not sure
26:15 – 26:19
that we've found a rhythm where, okay,
26:19 – 26:22
now it's easy and we just rinse
26:22 – 26:23
and repeat.
26:24 – 26:27
The festival has not covered all of its
26:27 – 26:29
costs yet. Last year, for the first time,
26:29 – 26:31
we covered all the direct costs.
26:31 – 26:34
We didn't pay all the overhead that it
26:34 – 26:37
took to hold it. It costs us in direct
26:37 – 26:40
expenses with all the tents and porta
26:40 – 26:42
potties and stages and food costs.
26:42 – 26:45
It costs us about 400000 to put this
26:45 – 26:46
festival on.
26:47 – 26:49
And I think if we're honest with
26:49 – 26:52
ourselves, it costs us probably 150000 of
26:52 – 26:54
labor from the operational organization of
26:54 – 26:58
it to the curation of the content that
26:58 – 27:01
shows up there to the marketing of the
27:01 – 27:04
event itself and all of the, you know,
27:04 – 27:06
Invoicing and receiving payments that it
27:06 – 27:10
takes. And one of the things is,
27:10 – 27:14
we didn't want to turn the festival
27:14 – 27:17
into a boutique market, high price tickets
27:17 – 27:20
to wealthy people event.
27:20 – 27:21
We have those in the state.
27:22 – 27:24
We wanted it to be as accessible as
27:24 – 27:27
possible. And in Helmville, Montana, we
27:27 – 27:30
have a bar and a post office.
27:31 – 27:33
And I was the only kid that graduated from
27:33 – 27:36
eighth grade in this little town, only kid
27:36 – 27:39
in that class. It's a very small place.
27:39 – 27:41
And the only big event have each year is
27:41 – 27:43
the Helmville Rodeo on Labor Day, and it's
27:43 – 27:45
eight dollars to get in.
27:45 – 27:49
And so that creates a gravity, uh,
27:49 – 27:52
of okay, what can you charge for
27:52 – 27:55
a festival like this that doesn't make
27:55 – 27:59
locals feel like this is an abomination?
28:00 – 28:04
And I think also part of the magic of it
28:04 – 28:07
is that if locals do show up, which they
28:07 – 28:10
do, uh, and if people who are really In
28:10 – 28:12
agriculture and conservation show up,
28:12 – 28:15
which they do, and then you also have
28:15 – 28:17
folks from outside of that context, urban
28:17 – 28:21
folks, there is a real magic, like an edge
28:21 – 28:24
effect of those two ways of seeing the
28:24 – 28:25
world where people feel.
28:25 – 28:27
I think they just feel comfortable.
28:27 – 28:29
They feel like there's already trust in
28:29 – 28:30
this place.
28:31 – 28:34
And so we could try to go after people who
28:34 – 28:37
buy 500 and 600 tickets, but instead we've
28:37 – 28:38
got 90 day tickets.
28:38 – 28:39
And 150 weekend passes.
28:38 – 28:42
And so our ticket revenue is about
28:42 – 28:45
half of the revenue right now.
28:46 – 28:50
And we have a 501c fiscal
28:50 – 28:53
sponsor. There's probably about, and
28:53 – 28:55
between that and sponsorships, true
28:55 – 28:58
sponsorships, that's the mix of revenue.
28:59 – 29:01
There's a little bit of ancillary stuff
29:01 – 29:05
like the sale of merch and food truck fees
29:05 – 29:07
and vendor fees. We have a Whole thing
29:07 – 29:09
called the general store where artists are
29:09 – 29:11
some of it's art and some of it are brands
29:11 – 29:12
that are making products.
29:12 – 29:16
And so we get some fees from that, but and
29:16 – 29:17
some parking fees.
29:17 – 29:20
But really, the three main revenue streams
29:20 – 29:22
are ticket sales, sponsorships, and
29:22 – 29:23
grants, foundations.
29:25 – 29:28
And yeah, I think without increasing
29:28 – 29:31
ticket prices a lot, we're just going
29:31 – 29:35
to have to let ticket prices gradually.
29:35 – 29:37
You know, let the numbers of tickets
29:37 – 29:40
gradually grow and continue to be able to
29:40 – 29:42
create an atmosphere where sponsors find
29:42 – 29:43
value in providing money.
29:44 – 29:46
And the same with foundations.
29:47 – 29:50
Can you give us some perspective on, given
29:50 – 29:52
that you have no infrastructure there, can
29:52 – 29:55
you give us some perspective on what the
29:55 – 29:57
requirements are to, for your setting, to
29:57 – 29:59
set up for an event like this?
30:00 – 30:03
We have about four whisper quiet
30:03 – 30:04
generators.
30:04 – 30:08
On site. We bring in water stations
30:08 – 30:12
that we get from Missoula about an hour
30:12 – 30:15
down the river to the west so people
30:15 – 30:19
can refill their water bottles and that
30:19 – 30:20
kind of thing.
30:21 – 30:24
We invite about, I think this year, 12
30:24 – 30:27
food trucks to provide the bulk of
30:27 – 30:28
people's sustenance.
30:28 – 30:30
And then we have a big reefer trailer that
30:30 – 30:33
we rent and we bring in, and that's what
30:33 – 30:35
keeps our own food cold.
30:35 – 30:38
And so, as part of your ticket, you can
30:38 – 30:40
kind of graze from the live fire
30:40 – 30:43
throughout the course of the weekend.
30:43 – 30:45
So, we have a plancha station and a grill
30:45 – 30:46
station and a cauldron.
30:47 – 30:51
And so, we have four or
30:51 – 30:54
five fairly large tents that we
30:54 – 30:57
rent for some shelter.
30:57 – 30:59
Last year, for example, it was quite cold
30:59 – 31:01
and windy, which was great in some ways
31:01 – 31:03
because it really caused people to huddle
31:03 – 31:06
in under the tents together and listen to
31:06 – 31:10
the talks. And then we rent a stage and
31:10 – 31:13
we rent the porta potties, and we have
31:13 – 31:17
to have a grizzly bear management plan to
31:17 – 31:20
have an electric fence to just protect the
31:20 – 31:23
parking area. We've got a garbage plan to
31:23 – 31:26
make sure that things are captured at the
31:26 – 31:29
end of the day. And then some of it
31:29 – 31:31
is compost. And brought to Helena, and
31:31 – 31:33
some of it is brought to the dump, the
31:33 – 31:37
county dump. So, and then the whole thing
31:37 – 31:41
relies on about 200 volunteers who are
31:41 – 31:43
just amazing. They're a huge part of what
31:43 – 31:45
makes the festival possible.
31:45 – 31:47
So, they're doing everything from kitchen
31:47 – 31:50
prep to helping put up stages to
31:50 – 31:52
organizing parking and helping people get
31:52 – 31:54
situated when they come out there.
31:55 – 31:58
But yeah, once they're there, it's just
31:58 – 32:02
quiet, you know. And every night the stars
32:02 – 32:02
are out.
32:03 – 32:07
And we've got Starlink because the vendors
32:07 – 32:10
need access to point of sale systems.
32:10 – 32:13
But we try to protect those passwords so
32:13 – 32:15
that people aren't generally on their
32:15 – 32:16
phones.
32:17 – 32:19
And yeah, it's just a time to connect.
32:22 – 32:24
And I think a lot of times people leave
32:24 – 32:26
with more energy than they came with.
32:26 – 32:29
It's not like a lot of festivals are a big
32:29 – 32:31
drink fest and it's a raid people are
32:31 – 32:33
ready to party in the headliner and then
32:33 – 32:36
they leave tired. I think this is more
32:36 – 32:36
like leaving recharged.
32:38 – 32:39
Yeah, well, one of the things I noticed
32:39 – 32:41
when I was there was you spoke about the
32:41 – 32:42
starry nights and the quiet.
32:42 – 32:45
Like you don't have quiet at a festival
32:45 – 32:48
that could be a quasi, could be considered
32:48 – 32:51
a quasi music festival, or shouldn't say a
32:51 – 32:53
quasi music festival, they have music
32:53 – 32:55
there. How many of those are quiet at
32:55 – 32:56
night?
32:57 – 33:00
Well, certainly there's bustle around.
33:00 – 33:02
The festival and there's noise, but
33:02 – 33:03
there's places to escape.
33:04 – 33:07
You can take a walk up on the mountain,
33:07 – 33:09
you can go out to the campground, and it's
33:09 – 33:10
pretty quiet there.
33:11 – 33:14
And so there's ways to, I think, quiet is
33:14 – 33:16
a little bit relative.
33:17 – 33:20
Quiet, there's no social media, right?
33:21 – 33:22
There's not a lot of screen time.
33:22 – 33:26
And because there's a lot of, I guess,
33:26 – 33:28
content that you could describe as
33:28 – 33:31
contemplative, I think there's just not
33:31 – 33:35
all of the bright lights and loud noises
33:35 – 33:38
and distractions that you might think of
33:38 – 33:41
when you think of a carnival or something.
33:44 – 33:46
How many people stay there at night?
33:47 – 33:51
I would say probably at most 1500 A
33:51 – 33:54
lot of other folks are day tripping in
33:54 – 33:56
from Lincoln or Sealy Lake.
33:56 – 33:57
Those are about. A half hour away.
33:58 – 34:00
And Helena is about 50 minutes away, and
34:00 – 34:02
Missoula is about an hour away.
34:03 – 34:06
So, and then there's also kind of an
34:06 – 34:08
extended RV area near the rodeo grounds
34:08 – 34:11
where we run a bus, a shuttle back and
34:11 – 34:12
forth. And so there's another group of
34:12 – 34:13
people that stay there.
34:13 – 34:16
Maybe another couple hundred people stay
34:16 – 34:18
there for extra RV space.
34:21 – 34:23
But yeah, a lot of the, you know, you
34:23 – 34:25
asked about other people around the
34:25 – 34:27
country thinking about holding similar
34:27 – 34:27
things.
34:27 – 34:30
For me, probably the most important thing
34:30 – 34:33
was to have some initial discussions with
34:33 – 34:35
the fire department and EMS because
34:35 – 34:37
they're both volunteer departments and
34:37 – 34:39
it's a lot, that's where the real active
34:39 – 34:40
community members are.
34:41 – 34:43
And you really want to hear from them.
34:43 – 34:46
And rather than saying, I'm doing this,
34:46 – 34:48
it's like, hey, I'm thinking about this.
34:49 – 34:50
I think it'd be a good thing.
34:50 – 34:51
What do you think?
34:51 – 34:52
What are your concerns?
34:52 – 34:53
What problems do we need to solve?
34:53 – 34:55
How do we deal with the county road
34:55 – 34:57
closure? And how do we deal with the fact
34:57 – 34:59
that there are grizzly bears in this
34:59 – 35:01
valley this time of year?
35:01 – 35:03
And then I, there's another nonprofit
35:03 – 35:05
group called the Black in the Valley that
35:05 – 35:08
is sort of a collaborative, works on water
35:08 – 35:10
and zoning and wildlife.
35:10 – 35:12
And I brought the same question to them.
35:12 – 35:14
And in that case, there's a broader
35:14 – 35:16
spectrum of landowners from the place,
35:16 – 35:17
agency people, and nonprofit people.
35:17 – 35:19
And I heard their concerns and their
35:19 – 35:23
input. And you find ways to make the
35:23 – 35:25
festival beneficial to other organizations
35:25 – 35:28
in town. So I think that initial scoping
35:28 – 35:30
and conversation having is important.
35:31 – 35:33
And just building on that, I would imagine
35:33 – 35:36
that in some regards, some of those
35:36 – 35:37
organizations perhaps even become partners
35:37 – 35:39
in some way. What are the types of
35:39 – 35:41
partners that you found to be particularly
35:41 – 35:42
valuable?
35:43 – 35:46
Yeah, one partner, because we're not a C3,
35:46 – 35:49
one partner is a 501c3 that can accept
35:49 – 35:51
grants for the festival because they also
35:51 – 35:55
see it as a way to share their own
35:55 – 35:57
conservation work in the valley.
35:57 – 36:01
And then they can help pay for those
36:01 – 36:04
grants run through the nonprofit tents and
36:04 – 36:07
porta potties and that kind of
36:07 – 36:08
infrastructure that's necessary.
36:09 – 36:11
So that would be a good example.
36:12 – 36:15
When you think about the festival, the
36:15 – 36:18
community connections, the outreach, and
36:18 – 36:20
ultimately also connecting with the
36:20 – 36:22
community through the restaurants and
36:22 – 36:25
having those as distribution depots, what
36:25 – 36:29
is your vision ultimately for moving the
36:29 – 36:32
supply of your ranches and perhaps other
36:32 – 36:36
ranches as well. Where are you now on
36:36 – 36:39
the total consumption or total use by
36:39 – 36:41
these various marketing efforts compared
36:41 – 36:43
to your total production?
36:44 – 36:46
Oh, it's still pretty small.
36:46 – 36:49
I would say about 15 of
36:49 – 36:53
the 6000 head of livestock that
36:53 – 36:56
our member ranches sell each year
36:56 – 36:59
go through old salt channels.
37:01 – 37:04
And, um Yeah, we've got a long ways to go
37:04 – 37:07
just to make a meaningful difference for
37:07 – 37:08
our own members.
37:09 – 37:11
We've, in some ways, Old Salt is, it
37:11 – 37:13
launched itself at the worst time in
37:13 – 37:14
history to start a meat company.
37:16 – 37:19
And it's a good time, at least in the very
37:19 – 37:22
narrow kind of short term, it's a good
37:22 – 37:25
time to be a rancher because livestock are
37:25 – 37:27
cattle, particularly, are just very
37:27 – 37:28
valuable. And it doesn't matter how you're
37:28 – 37:30
raising them. Frankly, anything that can
37:30 – 37:33
walk onto a truck and go to an auction or
37:33 – 37:35
a live auction is because they're so
37:35 – 37:38
scarce. The packers are kind of paying out
37:38 – 37:40
the nose to keep their facilities busy and
37:40 – 37:41
keep the throughput up.
37:43 – 37:44
But we weren't thinking short term.
37:44 – 37:47
When we established Old Salt, we were
37:47 – 37:50
looking a generation down the road and
37:50 – 37:53
asking ourselves is the industry moving in
37:53 – 37:55
a direction that empowers producers and
37:55 – 37:57
local communities or the opposite?
37:58 – 37:59
And we thought the opposite.
38:00 – 38:04
And so the producers understand that the
38:04 – 38:05
market cycles. And there's reasons to.
38:05 – 38:09
I think there's far more
38:09 – 38:12
producers doing regenerative practices
38:12 – 38:14
than people realize.
38:14 – 38:17
I think what there is is
38:17 – 38:20
getting those products to market in
38:20 – 38:24
a way that rewards the producers
38:24 – 38:25
for those practices.
38:25 – 38:27
There's the reward, there's a reward in
38:27 – 38:28
itself, right?
38:29 – 38:31
Managing land regeneratively and
38:31 – 38:33
decreasing your costs by decreasing inputs
38:33 – 38:36
and finding ways to stack and layer
38:36 – 38:39
enterprises that synergize with each
38:39 – 38:39
other.
38:40 – 38:42
Those are all rewards in themselves.
38:43 – 38:45
But I don't think they're sufficient.
38:46 – 38:47
And, you know, that's our own member
38:47 – 38:49
ranches are a good example of that.
38:49 – 38:51
They, their ecological trajectories were
38:51 – 38:52
good when they founded Old Salt.
38:53 – 38:54
Their profitability was good.
38:55 – 38:58
And yet they felt input
38:58 – 39:00
costs in general.
39:01 – 39:02
And I don't mean chemical input inputs, I
39:02 – 39:03
just mean tractors and fuel.
39:03 – 39:06
Those things are escalating
39:06 – 39:09
faster than prices.
39:09 – 39:11
And that's why it's for decades.
39:11 – 39:12
Yeah.
39:12 – 39:16
So we have to have the ability
39:16 – 39:20
as producers to gain resiliency over time
39:20 – 39:23
and to attract talent back because I
39:23 – 39:27
really believe stewardship has so much to
39:27 – 39:29
do with human beings.
39:29 – 39:31
More eyes per acre, like eyeballs.
39:32 – 39:33
Is kind of our goal.
39:33 – 39:36
I remember one time, and I used to work
39:36 – 39:38
for a nonprofit called Western Landowners
39:38 – 39:42
Alliance. And I don't know a lot about
39:42 – 39:45
farming, but I wrote a thought piece on
39:45 – 39:49
crop insurance, and it's such a sticky
39:49 – 39:49
thing.
39:50 – 39:52
And I was wondering okay, what if you
39:52 – 39:55
could create a parallel incentive program
39:55 – 39:57
that you could opt out of crop insurance?
39:58 – 40:01
And if you did, you could participate in a
40:01 – 40:02
different incentive program.
40:02 – 40:05
That essentially said for every 100 of
40:05 – 40:08
additional labor I add to my operation, I
40:08 – 40:11
can get 50 of that back.
40:12 – 40:14
And because I remember the conservation,
40:14 – 40:15
let's seek that idea.
40:15 – 40:17
The civilian conservation corps, you know,
40:17 – 40:20
during the New Deal was this, it just got
40:20 – 40:23
young people engaged out on these big
40:23 – 40:24
public works projects and trail building
40:24 – 40:25
and all that.
40:26 – 40:29
I think we need like a civil conservation
40:29 – 40:30
corps for agriculture.
40:31 – 40:34
And, you know, I think more labor and more
40:34 – 40:37
engaged kids can add a lot to the capacity
40:37 – 40:39
to manage land regeneratively, not just
40:39 – 40:42
kids, more engaged people on the land.
40:43 – 40:46
And ultimately, that influx of talent
40:46 – 40:49
would just be a huge thing for
40:49 – 40:50
agriculture.
40:50 – 40:54
And I think you're striking right at
40:54 – 40:57
the heart of the challenge because one
40:57 – 41:01
of the things that I've said repeatedly
41:01 – 41:04
is that before we can have a
41:04 – 41:06
conversation about regenerative at scale,
41:06 – 41:09
the most fundamental piece that needs
41:09 – 41:12
regenerated is the capacity for
41:12 – 41:14
stewardship. And by capacity for
41:14 – 41:16
stewardship, I mean exactly what you're
41:16 – 41:18
describing more hearts and hands on the
41:18 – 41:20
landscape that care deeply and that are
41:20 – 41:21
actively engaged.
41:22 – 41:24
And if you want to accomplish that, if you
41:24 – 41:26
want more hearts and hands in the
41:26 – 41:28
landscape, then there has to be a way to
41:28 – 41:30
compensate them and to reward them well.
41:31 – 41:33
They should be able to be rewarded
41:33 – 41:35
financially as well as if they put similar
41:35 – 41:37
effort into other enterprises, into other
41:37 – 41:38
endeavors. And we see that that is not the
41:38 – 41:39
case today, generally.
41:40 – 41:41
Amen to that.
41:43 – 41:44
Yeah, amen to that.
41:45 – 41:48
There's so many opportunities to stack
41:48 – 41:51
enterprises, and, you know, especially on
41:51 – 41:54
like where we're at, there's opportunities
41:54 – 41:58
to innovate on the recreation side to
41:58 – 41:59
a degree.
42:00 – 42:02
We could certainly do more on the sheep
42:02 – 42:04
side of things on our own family's
42:04 – 42:06
operation, which is mostly cattle.
42:06 – 42:09
We could certainly do a pastured hog
42:09 – 42:13
operation and all those things take time
42:13 – 42:13
and talent.
42:14 – 42:18
And a lot of times, what we've found, we
42:18 – 42:20
participate in an internship program that
42:20 – 42:23
the Kavira Coalition runs called the New
42:23 – 42:25
Agrarian Program. And we've had a number
42:25 – 42:28
of interns through that program, some who
42:28 – 42:31
have stayed in our Now, a regular part of
42:31 – 42:34
the ranching operation, and that those
42:34 – 42:35
outside perspectives are sometimes
42:35 – 42:37
tremendously valuable because they don't
42:37 – 42:39
come with the same preconceived notions
42:39 – 42:40
that we have.
42:41 – 42:43
Um, you know, from being in this place a
42:43 – 42:45
long time, there's some advantages to that
42:45 – 42:47
and some blind spots that are created
42:47 – 42:49
because you're in your paradigm and
42:49 – 42:50
anything that can challenge that paradigm
42:50 – 42:51
is generally healthy.
42:55 – 42:56
So let's dig more into it.
42:56 – 43:00
I want to hear more about this thought
43:00 – 43:02
exercise of replacing insurance with
43:02 – 43:03
people development.
43:03 – 43:04
What does that look like?
43:03 – 43:07
You know, one of the things that
43:07 – 43:10
I found interesting, there are so many,
43:10 – 43:14
when you really spend time thinking about
43:14 – 43:17
it, there are so many perverse incentives
43:17 – 43:20
around the crop insurance programs, many
43:20 – 43:24
of which are not obvious on the
43:24 – 43:27
surface. So just one even quasi
43:27 – 43:31
obvious example is the incentive for
43:31 – 43:33
yields versus profitability.
43:33 – 43:37
There's a good argument to be made that
43:37 – 43:39
there are many growers, particularly with
43:39 – 43:42
the elevated fertilizer prices this
43:42 – 43:45
spring, who would have been much better
43:45 – 43:48
off from a profit per acre perspective,
43:48 – 43:50
putting on reduced nutrient applications,
43:50 – 43:53
having slightly reduced yields, but having
43:53 – 43:55
had profitable yields.
43:56 – 43:59
But insurance inverts that.
44:00 – 44:02
You need to keep your APH levels up so
44:02 – 44:04
that you have a higher insurance base for
44:04 – 44:05
the future.
44:06 – 44:09
And so they're actually incentivized to
44:09 – 44:11
pay more in expenses, grow a larger
44:11 – 44:15
yielding crop that is going to lose them
44:15 – 44:18
money, but to then rely on crop insurance
44:18 – 44:20
to cover the gap.
44:21 – 44:24
And on and on. There's layers and layers
44:24 – 44:25
of this.
44:27 – 44:30
Yeah. I didn't grow up with any farming
44:30 – 44:33
context and I still don't have very much.
44:33 – 44:36
So I had no business writing a paper on
44:36 – 44:38
crop insurance, to be honest.
44:38 – 44:40
But I, you know, the benefit of the
44:40 – 44:40
perspective before.
44:41 – 44:44
So I have very limited knowledge about,
44:44 – 44:47
you know, the challenges that farmers are
44:47 – 44:50
navigating. I guess for me, it's just, it
44:50 – 44:54
seems to be the case that more and
44:54 – 44:57
not less integration of livestock systems
44:57 – 45:00
and cropping systems is a good thing.
45:01 – 45:04
And oftentimes, at least farmers in my
45:04 – 45:07
neck of the woods, let's say the Golden
45:07 – 45:10
Triangle area of Montana or the lower
45:10 – 45:13
Yellowstone, in some cases, the reason why
45:13 – 45:16
it's hard to incorporate livestock back is
45:16 – 45:19
simply because of how scarce water is.
45:19 – 45:22
It's dry land farming, fences are gone,
45:22 – 45:25
and water is very few in farms.
45:25 – 45:27
And far between, and so bison could make
45:27 – 45:29
use of that migrating large distances.
45:30 – 45:33
But it's a little bit hard to imagine how
45:33 – 45:34
to integrate livestock back into that
45:34 – 45:37
system today. But still, there are a lot
45:37 – 45:40
of farming operations that tell me, Oh, I
45:40 – 45:42
would love to have livestock incorporated
45:42 – 45:45
here, but my bandwidth is limited and I'm
45:45 – 45:47
just not a cow guy, yeah.
45:47 – 45:51
And um, so I think that's kind of
45:51 – 45:54
comes back to if we could somehow help,
45:54 – 45:55
um.
45:55 – 45:58
I don't. I think it would be hard to abuse
45:58 – 46:01
a program that incentivized labor because
46:01 – 46:03
you're not just getting free cash that you
46:03 – 46:06
could spend on anything and perhaps not
46:06 – 46:07
labor.
46:07 – 46:09
You've got to demonstrate that your
46:09 – 46:11
payroll is going up beyond some baseline.
46:12 – 46:15
So you are investing in more than you're
46:15 – 46:18
getting back, but you're getting part of
46:18 – 46:20
that labor, that increased labor
46:20 – 46:23
expenditure back to perhaps tip you over.
46:23 – 46:25
The edge to deciding that you might want
46:25 – 46:27
to start working with the livestock person
46:27 – 46:29
on your farm. And conversely, perhaps
46:29 – 46:31
there's some ranches that could
46:31 – 46:33
incorporate a little bit of farming and
46:33 – 46:35
feel like they don't have that skill set.
46:36 – 46:38
And perhaps somebody else could come in
46:38 – 46:41
and it. So this is, it was a very, this is
46:41 – 46:43
15 years ago now. And it was, it's a very
46:43 – 46:44
loose thought experiment.
46:44 – 46:48
But for me, the core is just when it, what
46:48 – 46:51
is one of the things that would be helpful
46:51 – 46:53
to operations that's hard to abuse?
46:54 – 46:58
It's hard to sort of generally like more
46:58 – 47:01
footsteps on the ground, more eyeballs is
47:01 – 47:05
not going to have a bad ecological effect
47:05 – 47:09
in the way that more inputs or more
47:09 – 47:11
chemical or more machines could have.
47:13 – 47:15
And, you know, meantime, there's a lot of
47:15 – 47:18
just the more people who are in this and
47:18 – 47:19
the more kids who get involved.
47:20 – 47:23
It's like that familiar can
47:23 – 47:27
only help with our cultural
47:27 – 47:31
learning. And to get land is expensive
47:31 – 47:34
and harder to access, harder to acquire
47:34 – 47:38
today than it was in my grandpa's time.
47:39 – 47:42
It's harder to pay for it with the cash
47:42 – 47:43
that an operation can produce.
47:43 – 47:46
And in a lot of cases, it's not possible.
47:46 – 47:47
I'm not saying it's not possible anywhere.
47:47 – 47:50
I'm just saying, my neck of the woods,
47:50 – 47:53
most places, I can't see how the
47:53 – 47:55
profitability of an operation has a chance
47:55 – 47:57
of actually buying that land.
47:57 – 48:00
And so, what are other ways to get more
48:00 – 48:02
people on the land and create that access?
48:03 – 48:06
It seems to me like it may be a
48:06 – 48:09
function of government that is worth
48:09 – 48:10
considering, especially since, you know,
48:10 – 48:13
crop insurance is such a tangled thing
48:13 – 48:16
with all these layers today that if you
48:16 – 48:20
just wiped it away, we would have utter
48:20 – 48:21
disaster is my guess.
48:21 – 48:25
So there's got to be some kind
48:25 – 48:29
of bridge, some kind of gradual letdown,
48:29 – 48:32
gradual come down from that system of
48:32 – 48:33
perverse incentives.
48:35 – 48:38
Yeah, there is, this reminds me of a
48:38 – 48:39
comment that was made.
48:41 – 48:44
I was part of, asked to be a part of a
48:44 – 48:47
think tank group to evaluate and to
48:47 – 48:49
reconsider if we overhauled the crop
48:49 – 48:51
insurance, what, or if we Overhauled crop
48:51 – 48:54
insurance, what, what, or if we, or not
48:54 – 48:56
necessarily overhauled it, but if we just
48:56 – 48:58
simply realigned it to produce goods that
48:58 – 49:01
produce outcomes that would be better for
49:01 – 49:02
society as a whole.
49:03 – 49:06
And, you know, the one comment that
49:06 – 49:10
seems kind of obvious, it was made
49:10 – 49:13
early on in the conversation, was what
49:13 – 49:17
if we just stop incentivizing bad things
49:17 – 49:18
that are produced?
