Mark Schatzker’s path into food science and journalism began in 1997 when an unforgettable Chilean steak completely changed his perspective on taste. Armed with a degree in philosophy, he became obsessed with understanding why standard North American food had lost its flavor. This curiosity sparked a decades-long global journey investigating the deep connection between soil quality, plant genetics, animal nutrition, and culinary excellence.
Today, Mark is the acclaimed author of three groundbreaking books—Steak, The Dorito Effect, and The End of Craving. Beyond his writing, he collaborates on clinical neuroscience and physiology research at Yale University and the University of Bristol. His current initiatives focus on studying how artificial flavorings, declining crop nutrient density, and a degraded food environment physically alter human brain chemistry, cravings, and overall public health.
In this episode, John and Mark discuss:
How modern agriculture’s intense focus on yield has accidentally bred the natural flavor and nutrition out of whole foods.
The internal wisdom livestock use to actively seek out specific nutrients when grazing diverse, healthy pastures.
How synthetic flavorings are engineered in factories to trick human brain chemistry into a cycle of overconsumption.
The direct link between Advancing Eco Agriculture’s focus on soil microbiomes and the creation of truly flavorful, nutrient-dense crops.
The stark differences between commodity-driven bulk food markets and traditional food cultures like those in Italy and Japan.
How regenerative growers can leverage exceptional crop flavor to command higher value and disrupt standard commodity markets.
Resources
To learn more about Mark’s work and purchase his books, please visit: https://www.markschatzker.com/new-page-1
To follow Mark’s ongoing research and writing, check out his Substack: https://markschatzker.substack.com/
About John Kempf
John Kempf is the founder of Advancing Eco Agriculture (AEA). A top expert in biological and regenerative farming, John founded AEA in 2006 to help fellow farmers by providing the education, tools, and strategies that will have a global effect on the food supply and those who grow it.
Through intense study and the knowledge gleaned from many industry leaders, John is building a comprehensive systems-based approach to plant nutrition – a system solidly based on the sciences of plant physiology, mineral nutrition, and soil microbiology.
Support For This Show & Helping You Grow
Since 2006, AEA has been on a mission to help growers become more resilient, efficient, and profitable with regenerative agriculture. AEA works directly with growers to apply its unique line of liquid mineral crop nutrition products and biological inoculants. Informed by cutting-edge plant and soil data-gathering techniques, AEA’s science-based programs empower farm operations to meet the crop quality markers that matter the most.
AEA has created real and lasting change on millions of acres with its products and data-driven services by working hand-in-hand with growers to produce healthier soil, stronger crops, and higher profits.
Beyond working on the ground with growers, AEA leads in regenerative agriculture media and education, producing and distributing the popular and highly-regarded Regenerative Agriculture Podcast, inspiring webinars, and other educational content that serve as go-to resources for growers worldwide.
Learn more about AEA’s regenerative programs and products: https://www.advancingecoag.com
Podcast Transcript
0:00 – 0:02
Hi, friends. This is John.
0:02 – 0:03
Welcome back to the Regenerative
0:03 – 0:05
Agriculture Podcast, where we have all
0:05 – 0:08
kinds of fun conversations related to
0:08 – 0:09
improving soil health and ecosystem
0:09 – 0:11
health, improving plant health and
0:11 – 0:13
livestock health, and ultimately, of
0:13 – 0:15
course, with the intention of improving
0:15 – 0:17
public health outcomes, which is where we
0:17 – 0:20
have such a large gap between public
0:20 – 0:22
health and soil health today because the
0:22 – 0:24
incentives are not aligned with achieving
0:24 – 0:27
that. Today, I have someone on the podcast
0:27 – 0:30
with me whose work I have admired for a
0:30 – 0:33
very long time. I've never had the chance
0:33 – 0:35
to speak with him before.
0:35 – 0:37
And that is Mark Schatzker, who wrote his
0:37 – 0:40
most recent book, I think, if I'm correct,
0:40 – 0:42
is The Dorito Effect, which I know many of
0:42 – 0:44
you have talked about.
0:44 – 0:45
There's been lots of discussion around,
0:45 – 0:48
and it deserves to be even more widely
0:48 – 0:50
known in our communities and along with
0:50 – 0:52
some of his earlier work as well.
0:52 – 0:54
So, Mark, Thank you very much for joining
0:54 – 0:56
me. Thanks for being willing to be here
0:56 – 0:59
and to share your wisdom and your work.
0:59 – 1:01
Tell us a bit about your journey and your
1:01 – 1:04
story and the scope of your work over the
1:04 – 1:05
last couple of decades.
1:05 – 1:07
Sure. Well, it all started with a steak.
1:07 – 1:10
You could call it, it literally was a life
1:10 – 1:12
changing steak. I think it was 1997.
1:12 – 1:14
I had graduated from university, arts
1:14 – 1:15
degree, studied philosophy.
1:15 – 1:17
And I went to visit my brother who was
1:17 – 1:19
living in Chile at the time.
1:19 – 1:21
And Chileans and Argentines don't get
1:21 – 1:23
along that well. So it tells you something
1:23 – 1:26
that if a Chilean is going to buy a great
1:26 – 1:28
steak, they will buy an Argentine steak.
1:28 – 1:30
Or perhaps at the time that was true.
1:30 – 1:32
So he bought a tenderloin.
1:32 – 1:35
And we Went out to the beach and we cooked
1:35 – 1:37
it over coals and it was just, you know,
1:37 – 1:40
it was perfect. And I put that first
1:40 – 1:43
morsel of steak into my mouth and
1:43 – 1:44
everything just slowed down.
1:44 – 1:47
It was one of those, oh my God,
1:47 – 1:49
experiences. It was just an outstandingly
1:49 – 1:50
delicious flavor experience.
1:50 – 1:53
And I asked what I thought was a simple
1:53 – 1:56
question, kind of an obvious question why
1:56 – 1:57
is the steak so good?
1:57 – 2:01
And I just started, I was very, I mean, I
2:01 – 2:02
just graduated university.
2:02 – 2:05
I wasn't even like a writer yet or a
2:05 – 2:07
journalist, but I just started researching
2:07 – 2:09
it. Got all the standard answers.
2:09 – 2:12
Has to be corn fed, marbling, you know,
2:12 – 2:14
contacted the National Cattlemen's Beef
2:14 – 2:16
Association, went down all those rabbit
2:16 – 2:17
holes. Nothing was working.
2:17 – 2:20
I found every time I cook a steak, I live
2:20 – 2:23
in Canada, but North American beef is all
2:23 – 2:25
kind of the same. It was basically just
2:25 – 2:26
salty, but not much else.
2:26 – 2:29
Just a hint of beef, and then it would
2:29 – 2:31
flatline. But there was that Chilean
2:31 – 2:33
steak, and we've all had the odd outlier
2:33 – 2:36
where you're like, wow, that was a really
2:36 – 2:38
good steak. And you always have this
2:38 – 2:39
expectation of deep, resonant, beefy
2:39 – 2:41
flavor, which just wasn't there.
2:41 – 2:43
And this ultimately led to a book, my
2:43 – 2:45
first book called Steak One Man's Search
2:45 – 2:47
for the World's Tastiest Piece of Beef.
2:47 – 2:50
And it was a great book to write.
2:50 – 2:52
I traveled the world looking for the best
2:52 – 2:54
steak, but I also started to ask deeper
2:54 – 2:57
questions why do we like what we like?
2:57 – 2:59
Why do we like the flavor of meat?
2:59 – 3:01
But even what really caught my attention
3:01 – 3:03
was the animals. Everybody who's outside
3:03 – 3:05
the world of farming or ranching or
3:05 – 3:07
grazing tends to think that ruminants are
3:07 – 3:10
dumb, that they just sort of eat what's in
3:10 – 3:12
front of them and stupidly move across the
3:12 – 3:13
landscape, munching away.
3:13 – 3:15
And of course, nothing could be further
3:15 – 3:16
from the truth.
3:17 – 3:20
And I would hear farmers and ranchers say
3:20 – 3:22
the most interesting things like these
3:22 – 3:24
mama cows are over in this field, they're
3:24 – 3:27
grazing on clover or alfalfa because they
3:27 – 3:29
need the protein. A fetus to support.
3:29 – 3:32
And these steers are laying on fat and
3:32 – 3:34
they're really going after the ryegrass
3:34 – 3:35
because it's got the carbs.
3:35 – 3:37
And you think, well, that's odd.
3:37 – 3:40
How do they know what a carbohydrate is or
3:40 – 3:43
a protein? They don't read Men's Health or
3:43 – 3:45
Self Magazine. They don't get caught up in
3:45 – 3:47
these nutrient wars that we have.
3:47 – 3:50
And that led to my second book called The
3:50 – 3:52
Dorito Effect, which was about flavor
3:52 – 3:55
because flavor is the one thing we never
3:55 – 3:57
talk about. We've had this ongoing, you
3:57 – 3:59
know, I guess it's not really a
3:59 – 4:01
discussion. It's more like an argument or
4:01 – 4:03
a disagreement about nutrition going back
4:03 – 4:05
decades. And it's like we're a hamster on
4:05 – 4:07
a wheel because we can't seem to figure
4:07 – 4:10
out what's wrong. And the one thing we
4:10 – 4:12
never do is talk about the experience of
4:12 – 4:14
eating because we just all sort of think
4:14 – 4:16
that it's dangerous, it's bad, if it
4:16 – 4:18
tastes good, spit it out.
4:18 – 4:19
And we're all nutritionists.
4:19 – 4:22
We put on the white lab coat and we talk
4:22 – 4:24
about protein, carbs, fat, and so forth.
4:24 – 4:26
And everything has to do from the neck
4:26 – 4:28
down. What happens when these nutrients
4:28 – 4:29
get into your body?
4:29 – 4:32
The brain just seems to plan over play no
4:32 – 4:34
role. This experience of eating, it's, you
4:34 – 4:36
know, ignore it, it's dangerous, it's from
4:36 – 4:38
the Stone Age. But really, flavor is, to
4:38 – 4:40
my way of thinking, the most important
4:40 – 4:42
aspect of food because that's the great
4:42 – 4:44
motivator. We want our food to be
4:44 – 4:46
delicious. Why is food delicious?
4:46 – 4:48
Why would evolution craft a species to eat
4:48 – 4:51
itself to death? None of it seemed to make
4:51 – 4:53
any sense. So, the Dorito effect was an
4:53 – 4:55
effort to understand how our food has
4:55 – 4:57
changed through the simple lens of flavor.
4:58 – 5:00
And it documented two complementary
5:00 – 5:03
trends. The first is that the food's We
5:03 – 5:05
grow on farms, vegetables, fruit,
5:05 – 5:07
livestock, are getting more bland.
5:07 – 5:10
It is the negative consequence of high
5:10 – 5:10
output agriculture.
5:10 – 5:13
We have focused our efforts on producing
5:13 – 5:16
more. And that's important because we have
5:16 – 5:19
many more mouths to feed and we have a
5:19 – 5:22
decreasing amount of land, but we have
5:22 – 5:25
paid for it in terms of quality.
5:25 – 5:28
The second complement trend is that what
5:28 – 5:30
we now called ultra processed foods,
5:30 – 5:32
people like my grandparents have always
5:32 – 5:35
Called junk food, is getting more
5:35 – 5:37
flavorful because we have learned to
5:37 – 5:40
identify flavor compounds in foods and we
5:40 – 5:43
produce them in flavor factories and we
5:43 – 5:44
impose them on food.
5:44 – 5:48
So I called the book The Dorito Effect for
5:48 – 5:51
the very simple reason that the first ever
5:51 – 5:53
Doritos were just salted tortilla chips.
5:53 – 5:56
And what no one knows is that they bombed,
5:56 – 5:58
they didn't sell. And it wasn't until
5:58 – 6:01
Frito Lay flavored them with taco
6:01 – 6:04
flavoring that a chip that no one was
6:04 – 6:06
particularly Interested in eating became a
6:06 – 6:08
chip people famously can't stop eating.
6:08 – 6:10
So that really illustrates the power of
6:10 – 6:13
flavor to motivate us, to make us eat.
6:13 – 6:16
And in fact, there's actually a third book
6:16 – 6:19
that came out a few years ago called The
6:19 – 6:21
End of Craving.
6:21 – 6:23
It came out during the pandemic, which was
6:23 – 6:26
a terrible time to release, to do anything
6:26 – 6:28
really. And that looked at the effect that
6:28 – 6:31
all these additives that we add to our
6:31 – 6:33
food that affect the sensory qualities,
6:33 – 6:35
that the things that our brain picks up
6:35 – 6:37
on, what is that doing to our brain?
6:37 – 6:40
So that's really been my life's work.
6:40 – 6:42
I've gotten more and more interested in
6:42 – 6:44
the science. To my great surprise, you
6:44 – 6:46
know, when the Dorito effect came out, I
6:46 – 6:48
was introduced to a neuroscientist at Yale
6:48 – 6:50
University named Dana Small.
6:50 – 6:52
And she was very interested in the book.
6:52 – 6:54
And she said, it's interesting.
6:54 – 6:56
We come to a very similar point of view,
6:56 – 6:58
but very different paths.
6:58 – 7:00
So she invited me to join her research
7:00 – 7:02
group, which is called the Modern Diet and
7:02 – 7:03
Physiology Research Center.
7:03 – 7:06
And the idea would be that I would write
7:06 – 7:08
about the research, but this, what I never
7:08 – 7:11
expected is I would actually start to take
7:11 – 7:12
part in the research.
7:12 – 7:14
So I've published with Dana and I
7:14 – 7:16
published with a scientist at the
7:16 – 7:18
University of Bristol named Jeff
7:18 – 7:20
Brunstrom, trying to get at some of these
7:20 – 7:22
really important issues about how the
7:22 – 7:24
experience of food and how the data that
7:24 – 7:26
our brains collect about food affects our
7:26 – 7:29
bodies, affects how we feel, affects what
7:29 – 7:32
we do. Because I think that's the most
7:32 – 7:33
important question.
7:33 – 7:36
And I think, you know, everybody says
7:36 – 7:39
this, but I think we've really been
7:39 – 7:42
missing it. It's Western science is really
7:42 – 7:43
good at simplifying.
7:43 – 7:46
What we're really bad at is understanding
7:46 – 7:48
complexity. Wow, Mark, that's an
7:48 – 7:49
incredible background.
7:49 – 7:53
You know, one of the things that caught
7:53 – 7:56
my attention years ago, I don't know, must
7:56 – 8:00
be close to two decades ago, I read
8:00 – 8:02
this. Fascinating little book titled
8:02 – 8:04
Biochemical Individuality, and it was
8:04 – 8:07
describing how some of the mechanisms.
8:07 – 8:10
That each of our bodies have our own
8:10 – 8:13
unique chemistry profile, and therefore we
8:13 – 8:16
have our taste receptors all respond
8:16 – 8:17
differently. And therefore, people
8:17 – 8:20
perceive things to a degree, people
8:20 – 8:21
perceive things differently.
8:21 – 8:24
That's why people have certain flavor
8:24 – 8:27
preferences for some fruits and vegetables
8:27 – 8:30
and so forth. But yet, within that,
8:30 – 8:32
greater than that individuality, we still
8:32 – 8:35
have this overall attraction to flavor and
8:35 – 8:38
aroma. And one of the recurring
8:38 – 8:41
conversations in this space is as we
8:41 – 8:45
improve soil health and as we improve the
8:45 – 8:47
microbiome, we produce fruits and
8:47 – 8:49
vegetables that have better flavor and
8:49 – 8:53
they have better aroma, even if they are
8:53 – 8:55
still producing much higher yields.
8:55 – 8:58
They have higher sugar content, they have
8:58 – 9:00
all these various higher concentrations,
9:00 – 9:02
these various flavor compounds.
9:02 – 9:06
But there is still a very large gap
9:06 – 9:08
between tying those field results into
9:08 – 9:11
people's health and into people's eating
9:11 – 9:13
experience and to institutionalizing that
9:13 – 9:16
and having that be something that buyers
9:16 – 9:19
actually care for and that wholesale
9:19 – 9:20
buyers actually care for.
9:20 – 9:23
So there's, I don't really have a specific
9:23 – 9:26
question to that, but there is this kind
9:26 – 9:28
of institutional gap between the system
9:28 – 9:31
that presently exists and what all of us
9:31 – 9:32
as individuals would desire.
9:32 – 9:36
None of us desires to have a tomato that
9:36 – 9:38
resembles a cardboard more than a tomato
9:38 – 9:40
that we can grow in our garden.
9:40 – 9:43
And so, I'm trying to formulate my
9:43 – 9:45
question here, but I think the question
9:45 – 9:49
that I want to ask is, in essence, how
9:49 – 9:51
well, actually, before I dig into that,
9:51 – 9:54
let's talk a little bit more about your
9:54 – 9:57
work at the institution and the work that
9:57 – 9:59
you're doing now. What are the connections
9:59 – 10:01
that you are finding between flavor and
10:01 – 10:04
attrition? And, um and attrition and the
10:04 – 10:05
attractiveness of food.
10:05 – 10:08
You know, it's, I actually want to go back
10:08 – 10:10
to what you're just talking about because
10:10 – 10:13
it's such a passion subject of mine.
10:13 – 10:14
Because you're absolutely right.
10:14 – 10:17
We live in such a deranged food
10:17 – 10:19
environment. Everyone seems to know that
10:19 – 10:20
tomatoes are terrible.
10:20 – 10:22
The research exists to produce better
10:22 – 10:24
tomatoes. Why don't we eat better
10:24 – 10:26
tomatoes? You can, there's times a year
10:26 – 10:28
you can get better tomatoes.
10:28 – 10:31
If you go to Europe, you can get better
10:31 – 10:33
tomatoes. I think the problem comes down
10:33 – 10:35
to the commodification of food.
10:36 – 10:38
So when you just buy something by the
10:38 – 10:41
pound, the incentive is just to produce as
10:41 – 10:44
much of it as you can at the lowest
10:44 – 10:46
possible price, because it becomes a race
10:46 – 10:49
to the bottom. So if you're producing food
10:49 – 10:52
the way you produce pea gravel or sand or
10:52 – 10:55
something that you just buy lots of.
10:55 – 10:56
It's a stark analogy.
10:56 – 10:58
Yeah, you get what you pay for.
10:58 – 11:01
What I've really struggled for so many
11:01 – 11:03
years to understand It's why it is this
11:03 – 11:05
way in North America.
11:05 – 11:07
It's very different in Europe very
11:07 – 11:08
different in Japan.
11:08 – 11:11
The two countries I think are the best
11:11 – 11:13
examples that I don't necessarily say we
11:13 – 11:15
should be like them, but think about
11:15 – 11:17
quality differently are Italy and Japan.
11:17 – 11:20
Italy has the most rules about food, you
11:20 – 11:23
know, DOP. These are laws that say things
11:23 – 11:26
like if you're going to call a cheese
11:26 – 11:28
Parmigiano Reggiano, it has to be made in
11:28 – 11:32
this area and it has to be made from these
11:32 – 11:34
cows that only eat grass or hay.
11:34 – 11:36
And they Have hundreds and hundreds of
11:36 – 11:39
these rules. San Marzano tomatoes are an
11:39 – 11:41
example. And we kind of think it's cute
11:41 – 11:44
and there's sort of an old world pageantry
11:44 – 11:45
to it.
11:45 – 11:48
But we sort of chuckle and we also think
11:48 – 11:50
it's kind of silly because it's on some
11:50 – 11:51
level not practical.
11:51 – 11:53
But it's interesting to note that Italy
11:53 – 11:55
really challenges some of our most
11:55 – 11:56
fundamental thinking about food.
11:56 – 11:58
Italy has, I'm of the opinion that Italy
11:58 – 12:01
has the best food in the Western world.
12:01 – 12:03
Thank you. We tend to think that the
12:03 – 12:04
deliciousness causes obesity.
12:04 – 12:06
So, if that were true, then Italians ought
12:06 – 12:08
to be the fattest and they are the
12:08 – 12:10
thinnest. In Northern Italy, which does
12:10 – 12:12
not eat a Mediterranean diet, I mean, it's
12:12 – 12:14
partly Mediterranean, but they eat lots of
12:14 – 12:17
pork, lots of fat, lots of cheese, lots of
12:17 – 12:19
cream. The rate of obesity is less than 10
12:19 – 12:21
and it's been holding steady for decades.
12:21 – 12:24
So, this should be something of a wake up
12:24 – 12:26
call. I don't know why we ignore it.
12:26 – 12:29
This is what I wrote about in The End of
12:29 – 12:30
Craving. Japan is similar.
12:30 – 12:31
They also have rules.
12:31 – 12:33
And I was in Japan researching steak.
12:33 – 12:36
I was in a town called Nagoya, which is
12:36 – 12:38
famous for Nagoya chicken, which is a
12:38 – 12:39
crossbreed between an heirloom chicken,
12:39 – 12:42
which is very slow growing, and a faster
12:42 – 12:43
growing chicken. But it's essentially a
12:43 – 12:45
chicken bred to be delicious.
12:46 – 12:49
There was a bust. The police busted a farm
12:49 – 12:51
pretending to produce Nagoya chickens, and
12:51 – 12:53
they weren't telling the truth, and they
12:53 – 12:55
got busted. That's kind of inconceivable
12:55 – 12:58
for something like that to happen here.
12:58 – 13:00
But the difference is that they revere the
13:00 – 13:04
products of the land and the sea, and they
13:04 – 13:05
think there's something sacred and
13:05 – 13:07
important about flavor and deliciousness,
13:07 – 13:09
whereas we think it's something dangerous
13:09 – 13:11
and something that we can manipulate to
13:11 – 13:13
our own advantage.
13:13 – 13:15
I think the decades of experience tell us
13:15 – 13:18
that they got it right and we got it
13:18 – 13:21
wrong. Um, I hope things are changing
13:21 – 13:23
here. I think there's some reasons to be
13:23 – 13:26
optimistic. If you look at something like
13:26 – 13:28
craft beer, if you took a time machine
13:28 – 13:31
back to the late 80s and told the heads of
13:31 – 13:34
you know, uh, the big beer companies when
13:34 – 13:36
everybody was drinking Bud Light, Coors
13:36 – 13:37
Light, or Michelob Light.
13:37 – 13:40
And by the way, back then the drinkers
13:40 – 13:42
couldn't distinguish them, it was just all
13:42 – 13:44
about branding. The beers were
13:44 – 13:45
indistinguishable.
13:44 – 13:47
If you told them that in decades people
13:47 – 13:49
are going to be drinking you know IPAs
13:49 – 13:51
that are bitter, and porters, and stouts,
13:51 – 13:54
and lagers, they just would have said
13:54 – 13:55
there's no way that's possible.
13:56 – 13:58
And there's a lot to love about the Craft
13:58 – 14:00
beer movement. People spend more money on
14:00 – 14:02
beer. They tend to care about who makes
14:02 – 14:04
it, how it's made, what's the style,
14:04 – 14:06
what's their tradition, what are the
14:06 – 14:08
ingredients. And I think that's a sign,
14:08 – 14:10
you know, that's something we should be
14:10 – 14:12
excited about. I think the same is true of
14:12 – 14:14
wine. Decades ago, we didn't care that
14:14 – 14:16
much about wine. You know, wine's tricky.
14:16 – 14:18
There can be so much snobbery and
14:18 – 14:20
silliness, but we care about the variety
14:20 – 14:22
of grape and we care about where it was
14:22 – 14:24
grown. I wish it were true for other
14:24 – 14:26
foods. I hope that it will become true,
14:26 – 14:28
but it shows you that.
14:28 – 14:30
We can care. What I find so strange is
14:30 – 14:32
that I've met people with lots and they
14:32 – 14:35
make lots and lots of money and they buy
14:35 – 14:36
the cheapest food.
14:36 – 14:38
They'll tell you with pride that they got,
14:38 – 14:40
you know, like a huge sheet of tenderloins
14:40 – 14:42
at Costco that are blade tenderized.
14:42 – 14:43
And it's interesting because they buy,
14:43 – 14:46
they have a very nice car, they buy nice
14:46 – 14:48
clothes, they go to nice places on their
14:48 – 14:50
vacation, but they buy the cheapest food
14:50 – 14:51
with pride.
14:51 – 14:54
And I think, you know, of all the things
14:54 – 14:56
that you buy, this stuff's actually going
14:56 – 14:59
in your body. Now, I'm not trying to say
14:59 – 15:02
anything bad about Costco, but it's just
15:02 – 15:05
This focus on buying cheap food, which I
15:05 – 15:07
don't understand because there could be
15:07 – 15:08
health consequences.
15:07 – 15:10
And don't, I mean, shouldn't we be
15:10 – 15:12
optimizing the experience of eating?
15:12 – 15:15
And to think about what you just said, in
15:15 – 15:18
what other areas of our life do we pride
15:18 – 15:19
ourselves on buying cheap?
15:19 – 15:21
Everywhere else, we focus on buying
15:21 – 15:23
quality, our building materials, our cars,
15:23 – 15:25
our clothes, et cetera.
15:25 – 15:28
And if you do have to buy something cheap
15:28 – 15:31
You just can't afford it, you know there's
15:31 – 15:34
a trade off. So that's what I find
15:34 – 15:36
intriguing. In France, they have a La
15:36 – 15:39
Belle Rouge chicken, and this is a slower
15:39 – 15:41
growing chicken that must have access to
15:41 – 15:44
the outdoors. It has the largest market
15:44 – 15:45
share for whole chickens.
15:45 – 15:47
And this isn't bought exclusively by
15:47 – 15:49
people in yachts in Monaco.
15:49 – 15:52
Ordinary French people, when they want to
15:52 – 15:55
roast a chicken, they buy a La Belle Rouge
15:55 – 15:58
chicken. They make less money than us,
15:58 – 16:01
their per capita GDP is lower, and yet
16:01 – 16:03
they Recognize to them that investment is
16:03 – 16:06
important. And why isn't that way for us
16:06 – 16:09
as being a real head scratcher for me?
16:09 – 16:12
There's another dimension of this that has
16:12 – 16:15
also been a real head scratcher for me,
16:15 – 16:18
and that is we have a small flock of
16:18 – 16:20
chickens, we sell some eggs.
16:20 – 16:24
I'm a part of a butcher shop here in the
16:24 – 16:26
local area. And how we value different
16:26 – 16:29
types of food. So people will avoid
16:29 – 16:32
paying. 5 for a dozen of eggs, of really
16:32 – 16:34
high quality pasture raised eggs, but
16:34 – 16:37
won't hesitate to spend 5 on classical
16:37 – 16:39
Doritos or York peppermint patties or
16:39 – 16:41
something else. Like there's this blind
16:41 – 16:44
spot around the perception of value that
16:44 – 16:47
anytime, it seems anytime when you start
16:47 – 16:48
having a conversation about animal
16:48 – 16:51
products or really healthy whole foods, we
16:51 – 16:53
start scrutinizing enough obsessing over
16:53 – 16:56
the price, but we don't scrutinize and
16:56 – 16:59
obsess over the price of a bag of chips.
17:00 – 17:02
I totally agree. And I also, there's this
17:02 – 17:04
idea floating around that processed foods
17:04 – 17:05
are cheap. It's not true.
17:05 – 17:06
They are not cheap.
17:06 – 17:09
When I go shopping, I find the most
17:09 – 17:11
expensive items are the ones that come in
17:11 – 17:13
a package. If I'm buying crackers or
17:13 – 17:16
something like that, I don't buy a lot of
17:16 – 17:18
that stuff. But when I do, that's the
17:18 – 17:20
expensive stuff. When you buy whole foods
17:20 – 17:22
and cook from scratch, it's way, way
17:22 – 17:24
cheaper, especially if you buy value cuts.
17:24 – 17:27
Thank you. So I agree with you, and I
17:27 – 17:29
don't know where that scrutiny comes from.
17:29 – 17:32
Now, listen, also, you need to know how to
17:32 – 17:35
cook. You have to have the time to do it.
17:35 – 17:36
I'm not pretending it's completely easy.
17:36 – 17:39
I find once you train yourself to do it,
17:39 – 17:40
the satisfaction is enormous.
17:40 – 17:42
But I totally agree with you.
17:42 – 17:44
Why is it that people complain about the
17:44 – 17:47
price of eggs and not the price of a bag
17:47 – 17:49
of chips? It's funny, like going to
17:49 – 17:51
McDonald's. I don't go to McDonald's, but
17:51 – 17:54
if you look at what, take a family, I got
17:54 – 17:57
three kids, for a family of five to eat at
17:57 – 17:59
McDonald's gosh, the meal you could cook
17:59 – 18:01
for that price would be incredible.
18:01 – 18:03
You could buy a beautiful bottle of wine,
18:03 – 18:05
probably two and have money left over.
18:05 – 18:07
So it really is intriguing.
18:07 – 18:10
And how do we get people to care more
18:10 – 18:12
about the quality of the food they eat and
18:12 – 18:15
the experience, not just of eating it, but
18:15 – 18:17
also of cooking it because it's also so
18:17 – 18:19
communal. When people are in the kitchen,
18:19 – 18:20
there's activity, there's interaction.
18:20 – 18:23
Then you sit down and you enjoy the meal.
18:23 – 18:26
And it reinforces human Bonds in so many
18:26 – 18:28
ways. What I often think about is having a
18:28 – 18:30
meal with your spouse.
18:30 – 18:33
If I have a meal with my wife, it's such
18:33 – 18:34
an interesting experience because us being
18:34 – 18:36
together makes the food taste better.
18:36 – 18:39
If I eat that food by myself, I'll
18:39 – 18:41
probably look at my phone, maybe I'll turn
18:41 – 18:43
on the TV or something.
18:43 – 18:45
But together, the enjoyment of that food,
18:45 – 18:47
it almost seems like a crime to eat a
18:47 – 18:49
great meal alone. It's like watching a
18:49 – 18:51
comedy alone, it just feels wrong.
18:51 – 18:53
But then the interesting thing, too, is
18:53 – 18:56
the quality of the food reinforces the
18:56 – 18:57
relationship. So it's such a wonderful
18:57 – 18:59
thing that eating is not just nourishment
18:59 – 19:02
for the body, but for the soul.
19:02 – 19:05
The quality of the food influences the
19:05 – 19:07
quality of the relationship.
19:07 – 19:09
That's a great line, Mark.
19:09 – 19:11
I like that. Yeah.
19:11 – 19:14
You know, I want to go back a
19:14 – 19:17
bit to something we were talking about
19:17 – 19:20
just a bit ago, and that is the
19:20 – 19:23
price of food and that high.
19:23 – 19:26
And that higher quality whole foods have
19:26 – 19:29
higher value and can be more satiating.
19:29 – 19:31
I had an interesting personal growth
19:31 – 19:33
experience with my family.
19:33 – 19:37
It was during my childhood years, I was
19:37 – 19:40
the oldest of nine children and my parents
19:40 – 19:43
went through a transition of trying to eat
19:43 – 19:46
because of some family health challenges
19:46 – 19:49
through a transition of trying to eat very
19:49 – 19:52
inexpensively to trying to eat mostly
19:52 – 19:55
whole foods, from I would say roughly age
19:55 – 19:59
range eight to 12 for me or something
19:59 – 20:02
like that. It was a transition where we
20:02 – 20:05
started buying and using a lot more
20:05 – 20:07
coconut oil and cereals disappeared.
20:07 – 20:10
And we had an incredible family farm where
20:10 – 20:14
we grew a lot of our own foods because
20:14 – 20:16
they were still economizing.
20:16 – 20:19
And what happened during that process is
20:19 – 20:22
we noticed that we, as an entire family,
20:22 – 20:25
we used to. Can and process hundreds of
20:25 – 20:28
jars of beef and Of fruit products.
20:28 – 20:31
We canned hundreds of course of peaches
20:31 – 20:34
and tomatoes and so forth because that was
20:34 – 20:37
the technology that we were using within
20:37 – 20:38
the Amish community.
20:38 – 20:41
And our consumption, we're a large family,
20:41 – 20:44
so we really noticed once we started
20:44 – 20:46
prioritizing better quality foods, our
20:46 – 20:48
total consumption of food decreased
20:48 – 20:50
substantially as a family.
20:50 – 20:54
And one really obvious case that you we we
20:54 – 20:56
didn't really expect or we didn't expect
20:56 – 21:00
any of this but In canning peaches, we
21:00 – 21:02
used to can peaches with sugar.
21:02 – 21:05
We changed to canning peaches with maple
21:05 – 21:08
syrup and a shot of orange juice.
21:08 – 21:10
And our consumption of canned peaches
21:10 – 21:13
dropped by about 30 as a family.
21:13 – 21:17
And that's just- I'm just curious, how did
21:17 – 21:18
the flavor change?
21:18 – 21:21
Were they better, were they worse, were
21:21 – 21:22
they just the same?
21:22 – 21:24
They were substantially better.
21:24 – 21:26
The maple syrup and the orange added a
21:26 – 21:27
slight citrus tang.
21:27 – 21:29
There was substantial improvements in
21:29 – 21:31
shelf life, storability, flavor, texture.
21:31 – 21:32
They were a lot better.
21:32 – 21:35
But even with them being that much better,
21:35 – 21:37
there was a reduction in consumption.
21:37 – 21:40
And that was, I use that as one example,
21:40 – 21:42
but that happened across the board.
21:42 – 21:44
And that, when you think about that, it
21:44 – 21:47
was hard for me for that to compute
21:47 – 21:49
because they're the same peaches.
21:49 – 21:51
They have the same nutritional profile.
21:51 – 21:53
In others, where we started trading other
21:53 – 21:56
oils for coconut oil and so forth, there
21:56 – 21:58
are other nutritional trade offs as well.
21:58 – 22:01
But what was so fascinating is we started
22:01 – 22:03
as a family, we started prioritizing
22:03 – 22:04
higher quality ingredients, spending more
22:04 – 22:06
for ingredients, and our overall food
22:06 – 22:08
budget went down. We spent less.
22:08 – 22:10
So it's not an isolated case.
22:10 – 22:12
I'll tell you something that was really
22:12 – 22:15
interesting when I was researching the end
22:15 – 22:17
of craving. What I discovered really
22:17 – 22:18
interesting stat is that French and
22:18 – 22:21
Italians, France and Italy as a group,
22:21 – 22:22
they consume fewer calories than
22:22 – 22:24
Americans. Not a surprise, they tend to be
22:24 – 22:27
much thinner. And yet it takes them much
22:27 – 22:28
longer to consume those calories.
22:28 – 22:30
It seems bizarre. You're eating less food,
22:30 – 22:32
but it's taking you longer.
22:32 – 22:34
We also know, especially in the case of
22:34 – 22:36
Italy, the food is wonderful.
22:36 – 22:38
I mean, people travel, it's one of the
22:38 – 22:40
most popular destinations in the world to
22:40 – 22:43
travel. And the main reason people go to
22:43 – 22:45
Italy is to eat food and drink.
22:45 – 22:48
When you think of the food, we're so much
22:48 – 22:49
better, wouldn't they eat more?
22:49 – 22:51
I mean, it's more delicious, aren't you
22:51 – 22:54
just gonna kind of shove more in your
22:54 – 22:55
mouth? And yet they don't.
22:55 – 22:58
So this is one of the things that we get
22:58 – 23:00
wrong is that we think that deliciousness
23:00 – 23:03
is what causes us to eat more and this is
23:03 – 23:04
the whole problem.
23:04 – 23:06
And I think your example is, is
23:06 – 23:08
instructive it's something we keep getting
23:08 – 23:10
wrong. You know, people keep saying these
23:10 – 23:12
processed foods, these ultra processed
23:12 – 23:13
foods, are hyper palatable.
23:13 – 23:14
Does anybody really believe that?
23:14 – 23:17
I mean, there's this thing they have where
23:17 – 23:18
you can't stop eating them.
23:19 – 23:22
But no one, you know, the best meal you
23:22 – 23:24
ever had, does anybody ever say, oh, yeah,
23:24 – 23:27
it was this bag of Doritos I had in
23:27 – 23:28
Wisconsin? It was unbelievable.
23:28 – 23:30
Like, no one ever says that.
23:30 – 23:32
So I think they have a peculiar grip on
23:32 – 23:34
us, but they're not that good.
23:34 – 23:35
There's a reason my grandparents called
23:35 – 23:37
them junk food because we know there's
23:37 – 23:39
something kind of fake about them.
23:39 – 23:41
It's the same reason they call heroin junk
23:41 – 23:43
because they know that the pleasure that
23:43 – 23:45
it brings you is false and dangerous.
23:45 – 23:48
It's the same, you know, you might say,
23:48 – 23:50
like, I always use this line, like, my
23:50 – 23:51
cousin sold me his BMW.
23:51 – 23:55
It turned out to be a piece of junk,
23:55 – 23:58
which is to say, I thought it had this
23:58 – 24:01
representation of being something that it
24:01 – 24:04
wasn't. So we kind of all know that these
24:04 – 24:07
things are terrible or that they don't
24:07 – 24:09
deliver. And Real food delivers pleasure.
24:09 – 24:12
It delivers highs and joys that the ultra
24:12 – 24:15
processed stuff will just never get close
24:15 – 24:17
to. Well, this, I'm just realizing based
24:17 – 24:20
on thinking about your commentary about
24:20 – 24:22
food consumption in Italy and satiation,
24:22 – 24:25
reflecting on the thoughts I was sharing a
24:25 – 24:29
bit ago, the reality is what we're kind of
24:29 – 24:31
saying is that the lack of satiation.
24:31 – 24:35
The lack of quality food is part of what
24:35 – 24:37
is contributing to overconsumption, which
24:37 – 24:40
is part of what is contributing to obesity
24:40 – 24:42
and our negative public health outcomes.
24:42 – 24:45
Yes, and I think livestock can be very
24:45 – 24:47
instructive. When we look at livestock
24:47 – 24:50
diets, they are designed to get animals to
24:50 – 24:53
market weight as fast as possible.
24:53 – 24:56
And it's kind of a junk food diet, which
24:56 – 24:58
is to say it's just it's energy dense.
24:58 – 25:00
They fortify them the way we do our breads
25:00 – 25:03
and our grains and it gets them fat real
25:03 – 25:05
quick. Well, that's what it does to us.
25:05 – 25:07
They put flavorings in too, by the way.
25:07 – 25:10
You know, I read this funny story, and I
25:10 – 25:11
haven't researched it.
25:11 – 25:13
I don't know if it's actually true, but
25:13 – 25:15
although it was an old publication, so
25:15 – 25:17
they wouldn't have, I don't know, they
25:17 – 25:19
would have any reason to be untruthful
25:19 – 25:21
about it. But years ago, there was a time
25:21 – 25:23
period when coconut oil was really
25:23 – 25:24
inexpensive, and they experimented with
25:24 – 25:27
feeding it to hogs, and it turned the hogs
25:27 – 25:28
lean.
25:28 – 25:30
It didn't sterilize, they became very
25:30 – 25:33
healthy, very robust, and very lean.
25:33 – 25:36
And so they had to switch away from
25:36 – 25:39
coconut oil to. More grains to more
25:39 – 25:41
soybean oil and corn and so forth.
25:41 – 25:44
And yeah, that's just a fascinating
25:44 – 25:46
commentary, a fascinating quote that you
25:46 – 25:49
shared that we're feeding ourselves like
25:49 – 25:51
we feed our livestock for the express
25:51 – 25:54
purpose and intent of fattening them.
25:54 – 25:57
You know, when you were speaking about the
25:57 – 26:00
chicken in Japan, you used a phrase that
26:00 – 26:02
they were bred to be delicious.
26:02 – 26:04
And that caught my attention.
26:04 – 26:08
Because how many things, how many crops in
26:08 – 26:10
the States are bred to be delicious?
26:10 – 26:13
There are certain crops that are selected
26:13 – 26:16
for flavor and so forth, but there's many
26:16 – 26:18
more that are not.
26:18 – 26:20
And livestock certainly generally are not,
26:20 – 26:23
at least as far as I'm aware.
26:23 – 26:26
Where do you see the opportunity?
26:26 – 26:28
There are certainly people who are doing
26:28 – 26:31
great things with flavor profiles, grazing
26:31 – 26:33
beef and so forth, and specifically
26:33 – 26:35
optimizing and focusing on producing
26:35 – 26:36
exceptional flavor profiles.
26:37 – 26:38
But they're outliers.
26:38 – 26:41
There's very few of them out there.
26:41 – 26:43
Where is the opportunity for growth to
26:43 – 26:45
specifically grow for flavor and to market
26:45 – 26:48
accordingly? When you look at the macro
26:48 – 26:50
landscape and the macro context, where is
26:50 – 26:53
the opportunity and where do you see we
26:53 – 26:54
can possibly go collectively?
26:54 – 26:57
It's a great question because you talked
26:57 – 26:58
about the market and marketing.
26:58 – 27:01
And I think this is the challenge that
27:01 – 27:04
many of the farmers and ranches doing the
27:04 – 27:06
best work are very small.
27:06 – 27:08
And some of them have built great direct
27:08 – 27:10
to consumer businesses, and I applaud
27:10 – 27:12
them. I think that's wonderful.
27:13 – 27:15
But the question is, how can we make
27:15 – 27:16
change in a Scale?
27:16 – 27:20
And I wonder if maybe one of the things we
27:20 – 27:23
can do is look at the example of Europe or
27:23 – 27:25
Japan. When we talk about, the Japanese
27:25 – 27:28
call them brands, Kobe beef is the most
27:28 – 27:30
famous brand, but that basically says if
27:30 – 27:32
you're gonna make Kobe beef, it's gotta be
27:32 – 27:35
from this area around Kobe, and they've
27:35 – 27:37
gotta eat this kind of grain, but not as
27:37 – 27:40
intense a grain diet as our cattle eat.
27:40 – 27:42
And they have all these brands, which is
27:42 – 27:44
basically rules that basically make it
27:44 – 27:47
easier to market because you can have many
27:47 – 27:49
producers in a single region following
27:49 – 27:52
those rules. Then you have a kind of a
27:52 – 27:53
marketing ability where it doesn't
27:53 – 27:56
necessarily have to be the farmer knocking
27:56 – 27:57
on the door of the supermarket.
27:57 – 28:00
You can, because they never have enough,
28:00 – 28:02
you can start to produce in quantity.
28:02 – 28:04
And you have a brand, whether it's like
28:04 – 28:07
Kobe Beef or San Marzano Tomatoes, but
28:07 – 28:09
just basically some stamp of quality that
28:09 – 28:12
says there are rules as to how this was
28:12 – 28:15
made and you can expect a certain level of
28:15 – 28:16
quality as a result.
28:16 – 28:18
And I think that makes it easier.
28:18 – 28:21
I think if you're one farmer, for example,
28:21 – 28:23
doing pastured pork, it can be really
28:23 – 28:25
challenging to build a business because
28:25 – 28:27
it's easy to sell the pork shops.
28:27 – 28:30
It's harder to sell some of the lesser
28:30 – 28:32
love cuts, although I think they're the
28:32 – 28:34
best. These things become a lot easier
28:34 – 28:36
when you start to build scale.
28:36 – 28:39
So I won't pretend that I'm a business
28:39 – 28:41
genius and this is going to solve all of
28:41 – 28:44
our problems, but I think maybe that would
28:44 – 28:47
be a way so that in different regions you
28:47 – 28:48
could have these marketing organizations
28:48 – 28:51
that are a promise of quality and a
28:51 – 28:53
promise also of values that inform that
28:53 – 28:55
farming so that you know that there's
28:55 – 28:58
humane standards, you know that the land
28:58 – 29:00
is respected. But you also have scale so
29:00 – 29:02
that economies of scale are real.
29:02 – 29:05
It gets more, you know, if the farmer
29:05 – 29:07
doesn't also have to worry about, you
29:07 – 29:09
know, inventory and sales and they can
29:09 – 29:12
just focus on what they do best, I think
29:12 – 29:14
that's one of the benefits.
29:14 – 29:17
That's one of the Things the commodity
29:17 – 29:20
system has going for it, as people become
29:20 – 29:22
very, very sometimes too hyper
29:22 – 29:25
specialized. But I think there maybe there
29:25 – 29:28
could be, maybe that could be a solution
29:28 – 29:32
so that these values can be sort of
29:32 – 29:35
collectivized and we can produce things in
29:35 – 29:38
greater number, which makes it easier to
29:38 – 29:41
access the food system we have today.
29:41 – 29:44
I love that idea. But looking at the
29:44 – 29:46
landscape through The perspective of
29:46 – 29:49
growers who might be producing a large
29:49 – 29:52
volume of a certain crop, let's say
29:52 – 29:54
strawberries or tomatoes or cherries, or
29:54 – 29:57
who might be producing chickens.
29:57 – 30:00
One of the challenges that we have is, and
30:00 – 30:04
this is my perspective, and I also have a
30:04 – 30:07
lack of experience in this particular
30:07 – 30:09
domain. But my perspective is that.
30:09 – 30:12
We have one of the foundational challenges
30:12 – 30:15
that we have is that within North America,
30:15 – 30:18
there appears to be relatively limited
30:18 – 30:21
demand or willingness to pay for quality.
30:22 – 30:24
If there were greater willingness to pay
30:24 – 30:27
for quality, wouldn't more of those brands
30:27 – 30:28
exist? We have organic certification,
30:28 – 30:31
which is not, just to be clear, a
30:31 – 30:33
certification of quality, it's just a
30:33 – 30:35
certification of the absence of certain
30:35 – 30:38
toxins. And yet we have relatively limited
30:38 – 30:39
consumer demand. For that.
30:39 – 30:42
What do you think the consumer demand part
30:42 – 30:43
of the profile looks like?
30:43 – 30:47
Well, I guess I don't want to say I'm an
30:47 – 30:50
expert on organic, but I think part of the
30:50 – 30:52
problem with organic is maybe at points
30:52 – 30:55
the standard got diluted, that it became
30:55 – 30:57
something different from what it was
30:57 – 31:00
intended to be. If you look at something
31:00 – 31:02
like organic chicken, it's just a super
31:02 – 31:04
fast growing chicken raised to an organic
31:04 – 31:06
standard, which is organic feed.
31:06 – 31:09
It's not, it doesn't, there may be some
31:09 – 31:11
minor differences in things like texture
31:11 – 31:13
and flavor, but it's not a substantially
31:13 – 31:14
different chicken.
31:14 – 31:17
Costs a lot more, but I don't think you
31:17 – 31:20
get a great eating experience as a result.
31:20 – 31:22
I think organic food can taste better, but
31:22 – 31:26
I think as many cases where it does not.
31:26 – 31:28
So it's a chicken and egg question.
31:28 – 31:31
There are people with lots of money in
31:31 – 31:33
their pocket that would be willing to pay
31:33 – 31:36
more for food if there was the guarantee
31:36 – 31:37
of quality.
31:38 – 31:39
Grass fed beef is a Quality.
31:39 – 31:41
Grassfed beef is a passion of mine.
31:41 – 31:43
I love grassfed beef.
31:43 – 31:45
I don't eat beef that isn't grassfed Not
31:45 – 31:48
because I'm a snob, but I just, I love it
31:48 – 31:51
so much. And quality is improving, but the
31:51 – 31:53
biggest problem for so long with grassfed
31:53 – 31:54
beef was just unevenness.
31:54 – 31:56
Some of it was absolutely spectacular, and
31:56 – 31:58
some of it was really bad.
31:58 – 32:01
I mean, the worst steak I've ever eaten in
32:01 – 32:02
my life was grassfed Awful.
32:02 – 32:04
Grainfed beef is predictably mediocre.
32:04 – 32:06
So, I thought I was going to say
32:06 – 32:08
predictably. I thought they were going to
32:08 – 32:11
say predictably middle of the pack and
32:11 – 32:12
then you say predictably mediocre.
32:12 – 32:15
There's a lot of people who will have
32:15 – 32:17
perked up ears when they hear that.
32:17 – 32:19
So the challenge really is to maintain
32:19 – 32:22
that standard. And I think once you can do
32:22 – 32:24
that and people have an expectation that
32:24 – 32:26
it's going to deliver, I think that value
32:26 – 32:27
proposition becomes easier.
32:27 – 32:31
I also want to say how easy it is for me
32:31 – 32:32
to say these things.
32:32 – 32:34
I'm not a farmer I'm not a rancher.
32:34 – 32:37
I don't have skin in the game the way
32:37 – 32:39
those people do. So, and I recognize the
32:39 – 32:41
incredible challenges there are.
32:44 – 32:48
So, I don't want to sound as if I'm
32:48 – 32:51
a critic. And those are very, very
32:51 – 32:53
challenging occupations with incredible
32:53 – 32:54
risks and surprises.
32:54 – 32:58
But these are just some of the things I
32:58 – 33:01
think in my head. How can we make this
33:01 – 33:05
better? Well, I think there are a large
33:05 – 33:07
group of people who understand the
33:07 – 33:10
constraints and the challenges of the
33:10 – 33:12
existing system, the existing food supply
33:12 – 33:15
web that exists, and are seriously asking
33:15 – 33:18
the question how can we improve outcomes
33:18 – 33:20
for the entire system?
33:20 – 33:23
How can we improve outcomes for farmers?
33:23 – 33:26
How can we improve outcomes for consumers?
33:26 – 33:29
And how can we benefit the whole?
33:29 – 33:32
And this is an important part of that
33:32 – 33:35
conversation of recognizing that we have
33:35 – 33:38
been misguided over the last century or
33:38 – 33:41
more on optimizing for quantity with no
33:41 – 33:42
consideration for quality.
33:42 – 33:46
Yes. I want to dig a bit more into
33:46 – 33:49
your most recent book, The End of Craving,
33:49 – 33:52
because I think the conversation ties back
33:52 – 33:55
to our discussion around satiation and the
33:55 – 33:58
quantity of food that it takes to satiate
33:58 – 34:01
us, as well as this whole flavor
34:01 – 34:02
conversation.
34:02 – 34:05
I really enjoyed the book, but I don't
34:05 – 34:07
want to put it into my words.
34:07 – 34:10
Can you give us an overview of the
34:10 – 34:13
process, the journey that you went through
34:13 – 34:15
with that book and what the key findings
34:15 – 34:18
were? The real question was the Dorito
34:18 – 34:20
effect left me with more questions, some
34:20 – 34:22
amazing insights and discoveries, but left
34:22 – 34:24
me with a lot of questions.
34:24 – 34:27
Like I said, the food conversation has
34:27 – 34:29
been dominated by an obsession with
34:29 – 34:30
nutrients carbs, protein, fat.
34:30 – 34:32
Those things haven't changed at all.
34:32 – 34:35
Sugar isn't any more sugary than sugar was
34:35 – 34:37
100 years ago. There's more of it.
34:37 – 34:40
Maybe we consume more of it, but sugar
34:40 – 34:42
hasn't changed. What has changed is the
34:42 – 34:45
flavor of food. Like I said, whole foods
34:45 – 34:46
are getting blander.
34:46 – 34:49
But what most people don't realize is in
34:49 – 34:51
that arsenal of additives that get added
34:51 – 34:54
when we process food, so much of them
34:54 – 34:56
change the experience of food.
34:56 – 34:59
So the Dorito effect, I talk an awful lot
34:59 – 35:02
about flavorings, but that's just one in a
35:02 – 35:03
whole gamut. There's artificial
35:03 – 35:05
sweeteners, there's fat replacers, there's
35:05 – 35:07
Things like modified starches, which are
35:07 – 35:10
starches that are engineered to have no
35:10 – 35:12
flavor profile. Because, you know, if
35:12 – 35:14
you're microwaving a pizza, you don't want
35:14 – 35:17
there to be like a puddle appearing as a
35:17 – 35:19
thaw. So they use starches, modified
35:19 – 35:21
starches to control these things.
35:21 – 35:23
That makes your microwaved pizza more
35:23 – 35:24
appealing, I suppose.
35:24 – 35:27
But a question we don't ask is, well,
35:27 – 35:30
starches usually have a flavor, you know,
35:30 – 35:32
a noodle, a wheat noodle tastes like a
35:32 – 35:35
wheat noodle. A rice noodle tastes like a
35:35 – 35:37
rice noodle. Mashed potatoes taste like
35:37 – 35:39
potatoes. When you create a starch that
35:39 – 35:42
has no flavor profile, what does that do
35:42 – 35:45
to the brain? Like I said, we tend to
35:45 – 35:47
think that flavor is dangerous and we
35:47 – 35:50
should ignore it. But if you look at your
35:50 – 35:53
DNA, the thickest chapter, it's not on how
35:53 – 35:55
to make your eyeballs or your brain, it's
35:55 – 35:58
on how to make your flavor sensing
35:58 – 35:59
equipment, the nose and mouth.
35:59 – 36:01
So it must be really important.
36:01 – 36:04
When you look at the brain, when you do
36:04 – 36:06
brain scans, nothing engages more brain
36:06 – 36:08
matter than the sensation of food.
36:08 – 36:10
So something really interesting is going
36:10 – 36:13
on. So why does food have flavor?
36:13 – 36:15
This is the question we never ask.
36:15 – 36:17
The reason food has flavor is because the
36:17 – 36:19
brain exists to predict.
36:19 – 36:21
The part of your brain that eats, it's
36:21 – 36:23
sealed inside your skull.
36:23 – 36:26
It doesn't talk to the part of your brain
36:26 – 36:29
that can read, so it doesn't know but the
36:29 – 36:31
nutrient label or the nutritional stuff
36:31 – 36:33
about calories. All it can do is sense.
36:33 – 36:36
So we develop the capacity to sense food
36:36 – 36:39
before it enters the body because we need
36:39 – 36:40
to know what's coming.
36:40 – 36:42
We release different hormones depending on
36:42 – 36:44
what we eat, if there's more fat or if
36:44 – 36:45
there's more carbs.
36:45 – 36:47
We secrete insulin when we experience
36:47 – 36:49
sweetness because we know sugar is going
36:49 – 36:52
to hit the bloodstream and we need to
36:52 – 36:54
prepare for it. So, what happens when you
36:54 – 36:56
start to change the sensory aspects of
36:56 – 36:59
food? One of the most, I talked about
36:59 – 37:01
pleasure. The stigma about obesity is that
37:01 – 37:03
people can't control themselves, they just
37:03 – 37:05
love food too much and they indulge too
37:05 – 37:07
much. When you look at the brain science
37:07 – 37:09
This isn't what we see.
37:09 – 37:11
We see that people with obesity don't
37:11 – 37:13
enjoy food more. If anything, they enjoy
37:13 – 37:16
it less. What we see is that they crave
37:16 – 37:19
food more. So if you take a trim brain and
37:19 – 37:22
an obese brain and you show them both a
37:22 – 37:24
picture of a pizza or a milkshake or an
37:24 – 37:27
ice cream cone or a cheeseburger, the trim
37:27 – 37:29
brain thinks, oh, that looks nice.
37:29 – 37:31
It has a bite and says, ah, that tastes
37:31 – 37:33
nice. That was nice.
37:33 – 37:35
The obese brain goes, I want that so
37:35 – 37:37
badly. I really, really want that.
37:37 – 37:40
And then they have a bite of it or a sip
37:40 – 37:43
of it and it does not satisfy them.
37:43 – 37:45
It does not pleasure them the way they'd
37:45 – 37:47
expected. So they take another bite.
37:47 – 37:49
So it's really a terrible situation.
37:49 – 37:52
You'd like to think, well, at least they
37:52 – 37:53
enjoy all that food.
37:53 – 37:55
They're having a great time.
37:55 – 37:57
But no, that's actually not the case.
37:57 – 38:00
So the brain isn't sort of this Stone Age
38:00 – 38:03
moron that's bent on feeding itself as
38:03 – 38:04
many calories as possible.
38:04 – 38:07
This whole idea that we're preparing for
38:07 – 38:09
famine, it just doesn't hold out.
38:09 – 38:11
There were not enough famines for there to
38:11 – 38:14
have been kind of an evolutionary mutation
38:14 – 38:17
to take place. But also, if you're in a
38:17 – 38:19
low calorie environment, the worst thing
38:19 – 38:21
you can do is overconsume calories because
38:21 – 38:24
it's like if the price of gas is really
38:24 – 38:27
high, do you want to trail around a big
38:27 – 38:29
trailer filled with gas cans?
38:29 – 38:31
That just costs you more gasoline.
38:31 – 38:32
It's a very expensive behavior.
38:32 – 38:35
So you have to ask the question why would
38:35 – 38:38
a brain that predicts, that knows the
38:38 – 38:40
value of calories, become bent on
38:40 – 38:41
consuming more calories?
38:41 – 38:43
And this is where those additives come in.
38:43 – 38:46
Because so many of the additives that we
38:46 – 38:49
put in food send the brain the wrong
38:49 – 38:51
message about calories on the way.
38:51 – 38:52
So artificial sweeteners.
38:52 – 38:55
In a state of nature, sweetness is a good
38:55 – 38:57
predictor of calories that are on the way.
38:57 – 38:59
Sweet fruit has more calories.
38:59 – 39:01
In the world we live in, sweetness can
39:01 – 39:03
mean anything. It can mean lots of
39:03 – 39:05
calories, like an can of coke.
39:05 – 39:08
It can be no calories in a can of diet
39:08 – 39:11
coke. But then we have soft drinks now
39:11 – 39:13
with our blend artificial sweeteners and
39:13 – 39:14
stevia, which is quote natural, with
39:14 – 39:17
sugar. And this really confuses the brain.
39:17 – 39:18
But it's not just artificial sweeteners,
39:18 – 39:19
there's fat replacers.
39:19 – 39:21
Now, interestingly, nobody knows anything
39:21 – 39:22
about fat replacers.
39:22 – 39:23
This is an enormous industry.
39:23 – 39:25
But unlike the sweetener industry, the fat
39:25 – 39:27
replacer people, they keep their head
39:27 – 39:30
down. So you really have to be crafty to
39:30 – 39:32
read an ingredient label to know if
39:32 – 39:34
there's a fat replacer there.
39:34 – 39:36
Even I know this stuff really well.
39:36 – 39:39
I can't tell you for sure because some of
39:39 – 39:41
these ingredients might be a fat replacer
39:41 – 39:43
might not be, it's depending on how
39:43 – 39:45
they're used, how they're deployed in the
39:45 – 39:47
food processing. But what they do is sort
39:47 – 39:49
of like artificial sweeteners, they create
39:49 – 39:51
this rich mouthfilling sensation of fat,
39:51 – 39:53
but deliver very few calories to the gut.
39:54 – 39:57
Like I said, there's things like modified
39:57 – 39:59
starches, where you're getting a boatload
39:59 – 40:00
of calories you didn't expect.
40:00 – 40:02
This creates what psychologists call
40:02 – 40:04
uncertainty. There's a more technical term
40:04 – 40:06
called reward prediction error, which
40:06 – 40:08
sounds sort of fancy, but what it
40:08 – 40:10
basically means is that you're
40:10 – 40:12
Anticipating this, I got something else.
40:12 – 40:15
And that is really the condition we have
40:15 – 40:17
created in the modern food environment.
40:17 – 40:20
So, the question you need to ask how does
40:20 – 40:23
a brain respond when it doesn't get what
40:23 – 40:25
it thought it was going to get?
40:25 – 40:28
How does a brain respond to uncertainty?
40:28 – 40:30
And before I tell you that, it's something
40:30 – 40:32
we all know intuitively.
40:32 – 40:35
If I told you, you're going to borrow my
40:35 – 40:38
car and you're going to drive 500 miles to
40:38 – 40:40
this Destination. But I said, the fuel
40:40 – 40:41
gauge doesn't work.
40:41 – 40:44
It's always pinned at full, even when it's
40:44 – 40:46
empty. What would the first thing you
40:46 – 40:48
would do be? Fill the tank.
40:48 – 40:50
You'd fill the tank.
40:50 – 40:52
And then you get halfway there and you'd
40:52 – 40:54
think, you know, the full tank should
40:54 – 40:56
work, but I don't know.
40:56 – 40:59
And if I'm wrong, I run out of gas.
40:59 – 41:01
You'd fill the tank again.
41:01 – 41:04
If I told you, you've got a flight that
41:04 – 41:06
leaves in two hours and your watch is
41:06 – 41:09
either an hour fast or an hour slow, you
41:09 – 41:11
don't know what would You do?
41:11 – 41:13
You go to the airport because uncertainty,
41:13 – 41:16
it motivates us. This is what evolution
41:16 – 41:17
baked into our brains.
41:17 – 41:19
Evolution did not design us to over
41:19 – 41:22
consume calories to the point of obesity
41:22 – 41:23
and metabolic disease.
41:23 – 41:26
What it did do is program us to respond to
41:26 – 41:28
uncertainty because if a needed reward out
41:28 – 41:31
there in the world, a piece of fruit, a
41:31 – 41:33
mate, if that becomes uncertain, You work
41:33 – 41:35
harder to achieve it because if you don't
41:35 – 41:38
get it, that's a loss and losses are bad.
41:38 – 41:41
Losses mean you don't get the food you
41:41 – 41:43
need, you might die, you might not
41:43 – 41:45
reproduce. So that's what evolution baked
41:45 – 41:47
into our genes is how to respond to
41:47 – 41:49
uncertainty. That's why we gamble.
41:49 – 41:51
That's why a billionaire will bet you 10
41:51 – 41:52
bucks on a baseball game.
41:52 – 41:55
It's not that they need the 10 bucks, it's
41:55 – 41:57
because uncertainty has a motivating
41:57 – 41:59
effect that gets all of us.
41:59 – 42:00
That's why we watch sport.
42:00 – 42:02
It's not interesting to watch LeBron James
42:02 – 42:05
play 21 with me, that's just, but with a
42:05 – 42:07
really good basketball player that doesn't
42:07 – 42:09
Become interesting because we want to know
42:09 – 42:10
what's going to happen.
42:10 – 42:12
It engages us, it pulls us in.
42:12 – 42:14
That's why people become addicted to
42:14 – 42:16
gambling. So the modern food environment
42:16 – 42:17
has become a calorie casino.
42:17 – 42:20
You don't know what you're going to get.
42:20 – 42:23
And one of the things we find with people
42:23 – 42:25
who become addicted to gambling is they're
42:25 – 42:27
always going for the big, big win because
42:27 – 42:30
very often they're trying to get out of
42:30 – 42:32
the hole. So they do what seems insane.
42:32 – 42:35
They've lost 4000 and they bet their kid's
42:35 – 42:36
college fund. Why?
42:36 – 42:38
Because being in the domain of losses is.
42:38 – 42:41
It feels awful. They'll do anything to get
42:41 – 42:44
out of it. And now we look at the modern
42:44 – 42:46
food environment and you see foods like a
42:46 – 42:49
Big Mac or a quarter pounder or a double
42:49 – 42:50
down. That's taken right.
42:50 – 42:51
That's gambling language right there.
42:51 – 42:54
A triple stacker. These are promises of
42:54 – 42:55
calories. We've created brains that want
42:55 – 42:57
the big dependable hit.
42:57 – 42:58
And how have we done that?
42:58 – 43:00
With uncertainty. We've created a food
43:00 – 43:02
environment in which the information our
43:02 – 43:05
brain gets when it senses food is not
43:05 – 43:07
reliable. That has a hyper motivating
43:07 – 43:09
effect. We've created millions of brains
43:09 – 43:11
that want more food than they need.
43:11 – 43:14
And we see this because the people who eat
43:14 – 43:16
ultra processed foods, junk food, they
43:16 – 43:18
have it the worst.
43:18 – 43:20
The people who eat whole foods where their
43:20 – 43:23
food isn't lying to them, you don't see
43:23 – 43:24
this extreme obesity.
43:24 – 43:27
Like you said with the peaches, food is
43:27 – 43:29
more satiating because it's not constantly
43:29 – 43:31
letting you down and fooling you and
43:31 – 43:32
telling you falsities.
43:32 – 43:35
I'm just sitting here and I'm smiling
43:35 – 43:36
because this ties in.
43:36 – 43:39
There is To this. There is an aspect of
43:39 – 43:42
this conversation that all of us know in
43:42 – 43:44
our spirits to be true.
43:44 – 43:47
We all know in our hearts that this is
43:47 – 43:49
true. We see it around us.
43:49 – 43:52
We experience it. We feel it.
43:52 – 43:54
So there's an aspect of validation that is
43:54 – 43:57
making me smile. But there's also, I don't
43:57 – 43:59
know quite how to articulate it.
43:59 – 44:01
There's the realization or the
44:01 – 44:03
reaffirmation that there is tremendous
44:03 – 44:05
opportunity to to change course and to fix
44:05 – 44:09
it. So, one of the, I suppose, one of the
44:09 – 44:11
questions given the studies and the
44:11 – 44:13
research that you are participating in, if
44:13 – 44:17
you are on the treadmill of having the gas
44:17 – 44:19
meter completely pegged at full all the
44:19 – 44:21
time and you have this food addiction,
44:21 – 44:24
what does the off ramp look like?
44:24 – 44:25
It's a great question.
44:25 – 44:29
One thing I can tell you is the GLP 1
44:29 – 44:31
drugs that are showing to be very
44:31 – 44:33
successful in getting people to lose
44:33 – 44:36
weight, they affect the urge part of
44:36 – 44:38
eating. They don't seem to affect the
44:38 – 44:41
pleasure of eating nearly as much as they
44:41 – 44:43
affect the desire to eat.
44:43 – 44:45
So I would say that's more evidence that
44:45 – 44:47
this is the problem.
44:47 – 44:50
I feel I have mixed emotions about these
44:50 – 44:52
drugs because I'd like to believe we don't
44:52 – 44:55
need to live in a world where everybody
44:55 – 44:58
needs to inject themselves with a drug or
44:58 – 45:00
take a pill just to eat food.
45:01 – 45:03
But I am also thankful that people who
45:03 – 45:05
really struggle with this and really truly
45:05 – 45:08
struggle now have an option for something
45:08 – 45:10
that can really improve their health and
45:10 – 45:12
their lives. But I don't want to say
45:12 – 45:14
medication is the off ramp.
45:14 – 45:17
I know in my own case, I never really
45:17 – 45:18
struggled. I'm very lucky.
45:18 – 45:21
I certainly used to eat a lot of junk food
45:21 – 45:24
when I was a teenager, partly because I
45:24 – 45:26
was a teenage boy, and teenage boys, they
45:26 – 45:28
do need calories. They grow fast, play
45:28 – 45:29
sports, high energy.
45:29 – 45:32
But I was also lucky that I was raised in
45:32 – 45:35
a household where we ate real food.
45:35 – 45:37
You know, my mother cooked dinner.
45:37 – 45:38
With groceries, she bought a.
45:38 – 45:39
At a grocery store supermarket.
45:39 – 45:42
That sounds strange, but a lot of people
45:42 – 45:43
don't eat that way.
45:43 – 45:45
And I know that my own taste changed.
45:45 – 45:48
You know, if you told me when I was 22
45:48 – 45:50
years old, do you want a pizza with
45:50 – 45:52
arugula on it? I would have been angry.
45:52 – 45:54
I would have said, no, put like sausage
45:54 – 45:56
and bacon and pepperoni on it.
45:56 – 45:58
Now I don't want that pizza.
45:58 – 46:00
I want the pizza with arugula on it
46:00 – 46:01
because my body changed.
46:01 – 46:04
I think to some degree, my needs are in
46:04 – 46:06
harmony with my needs, or my tastes, my
46:06 – 46:08
desires are in harmony with my needs.
46:08 – 46:10
I think to change this It takes an awfully
46:10 – 46:13
long time. It takes a long time to get
46:13 – 46:15
your body into be a bad state.
46:15 – 46:16
It takes years, sometimes decades.
46:16 – 46:19
And I think that offramp is a long time.
46:19 – 46:22
I haven't done that struggle myself, so I
46:22 – 46:23
can't say this works.
46:23 – 46:24
It was interesting.
46:24 – 46:27
I visited a clinic in Germany when I wrote
46:27 – 46:28
The End of Craving.
46:28 – 46:30
" And one of the techniques, this is for
46:30 – 46:32
people with real eating disorders.
46:32 – 46:34
And one of the techniques, Researcher had
46:34 – 46:36
developed for people with with binge
46:36 – 46:38
eating disorders that when they'd get the
46:38 – 46:40
desire to binge eat candy they'd eat a
46:40 – 46:43
dark chocolate and at first they hated it
46:43 – 46:45
they thought it's bitter it's awful but
46:45 – 46:47
they stuck with it and they started to
46:47 – 46:50
like it and then one day they ate milk
46:50 – 46:52
chocolate. And they said it was just too
46:52 – 46:55
sweet kind of syrupy and gross and so the
46:55 – 46:57
dark chocolate had the effect of of
46:57 – 47:00
slaying that craving so I think what that
47:00 – 47:02
tells us is if maybe there is the
47:02 – 47:04
possibility with time to get your your
47:04 – 47:07
body you know back in line with with food.
47:07 – 47:10
That that tells an honest story about
47:10 – 47:14
about the nutrition that's inside it of my
47:14 – 47:16
developing perspectives, I'm going
47:16 – 47:19
mentally back to the conversation we were
47:19 – 47:22
having about the landscape and where are
47:22 – 47:25
the levers for change and how farmers and
47:25 – 47:28
producers facilitate change and also what
47:28 – 47:30
is the role of consumers.
47:30 – 47:33
There's lots of pieces that tie into this.
47:33 – 47:37
But one of the things that I've come
47:37 – 47:40
to realize is that, certainly in some
47:40 – 47:42
categories, it is actually the Retailers
47:42 – 47:45
and the food distribution hubs or
47:45 – 47:47
distributors that really control, they're
47:47 – 47:50
the ones that have the power, they're the
47:50 – 47:53
ones that have the influence in the
47:53 – 47:56
relationship. And the reason why less than
47:56 – 47:59
high quality tasting tomatoes prevail in
47:59 – 48:02
the United States is because of
48:02 – 48:03
transportation, because of shippability
48:03 – 48:05
and storability really largely controlled
48:05 – 48:08
by distributors. And storability and that
48:08 – 48:10
is really largely controlled by
48:10 – 48:12
distributors, shippers, processors and
48:12 – 48:15
their demands. We know there is no
48:15 – 48:18
consumer demand for a tomato that tastes
48:18 – 48:21
like the majority of tomatoes produce or
48:21 – 48:22
strawberries or melons.
48:22 – 48:26
I mean there's a number of crops that
48:26 – 48:29
we could pick but that demand is what
48:29 – 48:32
gets offered to customers is determined by
48:32 – 48:35
the supply chains rather than by customer
48:35 – 48:39
demand or rather than even by what farmers
48:39 – 48:42
desire to grow. So when we consider that
48:42 – 48:45
macro landscape and the very sophisticated
48:45 – 48:48
food supply web that exists today, I asked
48:48 – 48:51
a version of this question earlier, but
48:51 – 48:54
you responded with the possibility of
48:54 – 48:56
producing or aggregating quality brands.
48:56 – 48:58
There's a slightly different question,
48:58 – 49:01
which is: where is the trajectory that you
49:01 – 49:05
see that we are on now here in North
49:05 – 49:07
America? What's the trajectory like now?
49:07 – 49:10
Is there any emerging Movement or
49:10 – 49:12
preference for quality, and how can we
49:12 – 49:14
shape and influence that?
49:14 – 49:18
I see two trends. I think some of the
49:18 – 49:21
bad stuff is getting worse, but I think
49:21 – 49:24
there's reason to be hopeful about some
49:24 – 49:27
positive signs. Like I, you know, I use
49:27 – 49:29
the example of craft beer, farmhouse
49:29 – 49:31
cheese is a good example.
49:31 – 49:35
There are some stores that care more and
49:35 – 49:37
respond more to these, you know, to
49:37 – 49:40
consumers who care more about this.
49:40 – 49:43
Excuse me. I think the more that people
49:43 – 49:45
travel to other countries, the more they
49:45 – 49:48
realize that it doesn't need to be this
49:48 – 49:51
way. So I think over time, hopefully, you
49:51 – 49:53
know, I think we'll see two different
49:53 – 49:56
trends, which is that some of the bad
49:56 – 49:58
stuff continues to get worse, but that
49:58 – 50:01
there will be a more differentiated, more
50:01 – 50:02
sophisticated marketplace that emerges
50:02 – 50:05
where my hope is that there will be space
50:05 – 50:08
for products that are produced by people
50:08 – 50:10
with values who care about everything,
50:10 – 50:12
about how food is created.
50:12 – 50:14
So that they can make a living creating
50:14 – 50:17
food that should be eaten, that creates
50:17 – 50:19
joy and happiness and pleasure in people
50:19 – 50:22
who eat it. I feel like we've just, you
50:22 – 50:25
have produced such a wealth of work and I
50:25 – 50:27
really enjoyed reading your books, but
50:27 – 50:30
we've only scratched the surface in this
50:30 – 50:32
conversation. Where can people learn more
50:32 – 50:33
about the scope of...
50:33 – 50:35
They can read the books, the Dorito
50:35 – 50:37
Effect, The End of craving.
50:37 – 50:39
I have a sub stack they can mark Shasker
50:39 – 50:42
they can look it up where I should update
50:42 – 50:44
it more often than I do, but I talk about
50:44 – 50:46
some of the research that I do.
50:46 – 50:48
I wrote one not long ago, but onions,
50:48 – 50:50
because I realized that onions used to
50:50 – 50:53
make me cry when I sliced them and they
50:53 – 50:54
don't make me cry anymore.
50:54 – 50:56
And that there's a flavor crisis in onions
50:56 – 50:58
because it's those compounds that make
50:58 – 51:00
onions intense where the flavor comes
51:00 – 51:02
from. So these are the kinds of things
51:02 – 51:04
that obsess me. People might think that's
51:04 – 51:07
silly, but I think onions are one of the
51:07 – 51:09
most important foundations I Cuisine, and
51:09 – 51:11
they can follow me on social media.
51:11 – 51:14
I don't, I'm not that active on social
51:14 – 51:17
media, I just find it such a strange
51:17 – 51:19
environment. But yeah, I would say the
51:19 – 51:21
book's in the sub stack.
51:21 – 51:24
Well, thank you. And I want to say thank
51:24 – 51:26
you for all the work that you're doing.
51:26 – 51:28
Thank you for sharing your wisdom.
51:28 – 51:31
We've only scratched the surface and I
51:31 – 51:33
look forward to having more conversations
51:33 – 51:36
with you. Thank you for the work that
51:36 – 51:38
you're doing and bring these important
51:38 – 51:39
topics to everybody's attention.
51:39 – 51:41
It was a real pleasure chatting.
51:41 – 51:44
The team at AEA and I Are dedicated to
51:44 – 51:46
bringing this show to you because we
51:46 – 51:48
believe that knowledge and information is
51:48 – 51:50
the foundation of successful regenerative
51:50 – 51:52
systems. At AEA, we believe that growing
51:52 – 51:55
better quality food and making more money
51:55 – 51:56
from your crops is possible.
51:56 – 51:59
And since 2006, we've worked with leading
51:59 – 52:01
professional growers to help them do just
52:01 – 52:04
that. At AEA, we don't guess, we test, we
52:04 – 52:06
analyze, and we provide recommendations
52:06 – 52:08
based on scientific data, knowledge, and
52:08 – 52:10
experience. We've developed products that
52:10 – 52:12
are uniquely Positioned to help growers
52:12 – 52:13
make more money with regenerative
52:13 – 52:15
agriculture. If you are a professional
52:15 – 52:18
grower who believes in testing instead of
52:18 – 52:20
guessing, someone who believes in a
52:20 – 52:22
better, more regenerative way to grow,
52:22 – 52:24
visit advancingecoagcom and contact us to
52:24 – 52:26
see if AEA is right for you.
