Patrick Fabian and his two sons Andrew and Stephen operate a third and fourth-generation farm in Southern Alberta, Canada. Farming on 100% irrigated land, they specialize in producing a diverse range of pedigreed seeds, including cereals, flax, corn, alfalfa, canola, and peas. Their operation encompasses roughly a thousand acres and revolves around cultivating high-quality seeds that boast robust germination and exceptional vigor.
In their transition to regenerative agriculture, the Fabians drastically reduced upfront synthetic nitrogen, opting instead to spoon-feed crops with highly efficient foliar applications of solubilized urea. By combining biological seed treatments like compost tea with targeted carbon sources and micronutrients, they successfully eliminated the need for conventional fungicides and insecticides. Their practices focus heavily on maximizing net income per acre and enhancing soil biology rather than chasing sheer volume. In this episode, John and the Fabians discuss:
The efficiency gains achieved by switching from upfront soil nitrogen to foliar applications of solubilized urea.
The operational shift from chasing maximum gross yield to prioritizing net income per acre.
Replacing conventional synthetic seed treatments with compost tea and biological inoculants.
How microbially active soils produce heavier pedigreed seeds with superior cold-stress vigor.
Utilizing plant sap analysis and tissue testing to address precise nutritional needs.
The remarkable crop resilience and yield recovery observed after severe early-stage hail damage.
How Advancing Eco Agriculture helps growers make data-driven decisions through sap testing.
Resources
To keep up with the Fabians, follow them on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FabianSeedFarmsInc/
To learn more about plant sap analysis: https://advancingecoag.com/plant-sap-analysis/
About John Kempf
John Kempf is the founder of Advancing Eco Agriculture (AEA). A top expert in biological and regenerative farming, John founded AEA in 2006 to help fellow farmers by providing the education, tools, and strategies that will have a global effect on the food supply and those who grow it.
Through intense study and the knowledge gleaned from many industry leaders, John is building a comprehensive systems-based approach to plant nutrition – a system solidly based on the sciences of plant physiology, mineral nutrition, and soil microbiology.
Support For This Show & Helping You Grow
Since 2006, AEA has been on a mission to help growers become more resilient, efficient, and profitable with regenerative agriculture. AEA works directly with growers to apply its unique line of liquid mineral crop nutrition products and biological inoculants. Informed by cutting-edge plant and soil data-gathering techniques, AEA’s science-based programs empower farm operations to meet the crop quality markers that matter the most.
AEA has created real and lasting change on millions of acres with its products and data-driven services by working hand-in-hand with growers to produce healthier soil, stronger crops, and higher profits.
Beyond working on the ground with growers, AEA leads in regenerative agriculture media and education, producing and distributing the popular and highly-regarded Regenerative Agriculture Podcast, inspiring webinars, and other educational content that serve as go-to resources for growers worldwide.
Learn more about AEA’s regenerative programs and products: https://www.advancingecoag.com
Podcast Transcript
0:00 – 0:02
Hi friends, this is John.
0:02 – 0:03
Welcome back to the Regenerative
0:03 – 0:05
Agriculture podcast where we have all
0:05 – 0:08
kinds of fun conversations related to
0:08 – 0:09
improving soil health and agriculture
0:09 – 0:11
efficiency and ultimately, hopefully, the
0:11 – 0:13
production of food that regenerates our
0:13 – 0:15
ecosystems and that provides public
0:15 – 0:18
health. Today, I'm here with some people
0:18 – 0:21
who I would like to call friends of mine,
0:21 – 0:24
but I need to have more conversations with
0:24 – 0:26
them first. And that's the Fabian family
0:26 – 0:28
from Canada. I've really admired their
0:28 – 0:31
work and on improving nutrient use
0:31 – 0:32
efficiency, and particularly nitrogen
0:32 – 0:34
management efficiency, and the results
0:34 – 0:36
that they're getting on their operation.
0:37 – 0:40
So, I'm here today with Patrick, Andrew,
0:40 – 0:42
and Stephen. Patrick, I'll direct my first
0:42 – 0:46
question to you. Can you first kind of
0:46 – 0:49
begin by giving us an overview of your
0:49 – 0:52
operation and the work that you're doing,
0:52 – 0:55
the scale, the particular farming context,
0:55 – 0:58
and the scope of the work that you're
0:58 – 1:01
doing? All right. Well, thanks for having
1:01 – 1:04
us on, John. It's an honor to be
1:04 – 1:08
on your podcast. We are part of a,
1:08 – 1:11
I guess I'm a third generation, I boys
1:11 – 1:14
are fourth generation farm in Southern
1:14 – 1:15
Alberta, we're 100 irrigation.
1:15 – 1:19
And we ended up in 1987, I started
1:19 – 1:20
growing pedigreed seed.
1:20 – 1:23
And we started working with different ways
1:23 – 1:26
to try and manage nitrogen management, we
1:26 – 1:29
tried to work with different fertility
1:29 – 1:31
options and using the conventional
1:31 – 1:34
agronomy and that just led us to doing
1:34 – 1:36
different things, different avenues,
1:36 – 1:38
sometimes by necessity and sometimes out
1:38 – 1:42
of curiosity. But it was one of those
1:42 – 1:44
things that sometimes necessity is the
1:44 – 1:48
mother of invention and it forces you to
1:48 – 1:49
think outside the box.
1:49 – 1:52
What are the scopes of this?
1:52 – 1:55
What's the scope of the seed crops that
1:55 – 1:57
you're producing? We grow generally
1:57 – 1:59
cereals, which would include barley,
1:59 – 2:01
wheat, rye, sorry, barley, wheat,
2:01 – 2:02
triticale.
2:03 – 2:05
Flax, corn occasionally soybeans, alfalfa
2:05 – 2:09
seed, pedigreed seed canola, and peas and
2:09 – 2:11
once in a while lentils.
2:11 – 2:14
So we have a fairly diverse range
2:14 – 2:17
of crops that we produce.
2:17 – 2:20
And our target for all of the
2:20 – 2:23
crop production is for pedigreed seed.
2:23 – 2:26
Sometimes that's not always possible.
2:26 – 2:28
We'll grow. For rotation purposes, like
2:28 – 2:32
for this year, we've got hemp in
2:32 – 2:34
one field, things like that.
2:34 – 2:38
But we try and keep a balanced
2:38 – 2:41
rotation for maintaining a supply of
2:41 – 2:44
varieties of seed that our clients would
2:44 – 2:47
use in this area. And within what
2:47 – 2:50
was it about your operation?
2:50 – 2:53
I suppose my question is what attracted
2:53 – 2:57
you to what got you started paying
2:57 – 2:59
attention to nutrient management and
2:59 – 3:01
nitrogen management more closely
3:01 – 3:04
initially. What led you down this pathway?
3:04 – 3:08
I would say in the late 90s, it
3:08 – 3:11
was a situation where things are getting
3:11 – 3:13
really, really tight on the farm.
3:13 – 3:16
And using a conventional agronomist, they
3:16 – 3:19
were making recommendations that we would
3:19 – 3:21
need to raise a crop.
3:21 – 3:24
That particular year, we had put in our
3:24 – 3:28
crop and everything was really super dry
3:28 – 3:31
in the fall. And on one of our
3:31 – 3:34
farms, which is flood irrigation, we had
3:34 – 3:36
elected to do fall irrigation.
3:36 – 3:40
So that's fine with that's not uncommon
3:40 – 3:43
around here. In the springtime, it was
3:43 – 3:45
really, wet. And our agronomist finally
3:45 – 3:49
got the test back and said, okay, to
3:49 – 3:52
produce an 85 bushel crop of hard red
3:52 – 3:56
spring wheat, we're going to have put this
3:56 – 3:57
on there.
3:58 – 4:01
And so we went out there with I can't
4:01 – 4:04
remember what the numbers were, but it
4:04 – 4:07
looked like a blizzard coming out the back
4:07 – 4:10
of the spreader. And the idea was we were
4:10 – 4:14
going to work it in today and seed it
4:14 – 4:16
tomorrow. Well, tonight it rained and it
4:16 – 4:19
kept on raining and kept on raining.
4:19 – 4:22
Long story short, we had, we were unable
4:22 – 4:24
to seed that field.
4:24 – 4:27
So the field had to go follow for the
4:27 – 4:30
year. And the following year, we came back
4:30 – 4:33
and took our soil tests again, and we had
4:33 – 4:34
available nitrogen.
4:34 – 4:38
And it's like, this is not going to work.
4:38 – 4:40
And so we looked at different alternatives
4:40 – 4:43
to see what could be done.
4:43 – 4:45
Of course, our agronomist had the
4:45 – 4:47
fertilizer dealer on speed dial.
4:47 – 4:50
They were ready to put on another 284
4:50 – 4:51
pounds of product.
4:51 – 4:53
And this is the rest.
4:53 – 4:56
A recipe to get out of farming very
4:56 – 4:58
quickly because it wasn't sustainable.
4:58 – 5:01
And so when I had suggested to my
5:01 – 5:04
agronomist that there is this thing about
5:04 – 5:07
melting urea, she was very upset about the
5:07 – 5:09
fact that I would even entertain the
5:09 – 5:11
notion of such nonsense.
5:11 – 5:14
And when I decided to go ahead with it,
5:14 – 5:17
she called me back three days later and
5:17 – 5:21
said that she was not able to sleep all
5:21 – 5:24
night. Because she was bothered by this
5:24 – 5:28
this fall in Folly of what I was trying
5:28 – 5:31
to do. And for the first time in my
5:31 – 5:33
life, I got fired.
5:33 – 5:36
She said, If this is what you're planning
5:36 – 5:40
on doing, I'm going to have to let you
5:40 – 5:44
go as me being your agronomist because I
5:44 – 5:47
don't want to get in trouble for making or
5:47 – 5:50
being part of these kind of foolish
5:50 – 5:53
recommendations. So we came across a
5:53 – 5:55
gentleman who was very, very
5:55 – 5:58
knowledgeable, a gentleman by the name of
5:58 – 6:01
Gerald Anderson. I've got deep respect for
6:01 – 6:05
him. He really showed us the way on how
6:05 – 6:06
this process was done.
6:06 – 6:10
And right up until the time that he
6:10 – 6:13
retired, he was our agronomist, and we
6:13 – 6:15
learned so much from him.
6:15 – 6:18
And that started, that really started the
6:18 – 6:21
journey when we realized that you know
6:21 – 6:24
what? Everything that we have been told is
6:24 – 6:26
not necessarily 100 accurate.
6:26 – 6:27
There are other people.
6:27 – 6:29
Pardon me? It's incomplete.
6:29 – 6:31
We're often given the impression that this
6:31 – 6:34
is the entire. There is one right way to
6:34 – 6:37
do it. Yes. And you start digging into it
6:37 – 6:39
and you soon realize actually there's
6:39 – 6:41
multiple roads to roam.
6:41 – 6:43
And there's one that's optimal for those
6:43 – 6:45
who are selling inputs and one that's
6:45 – 6:48
optimal for the people who are buying
6:48 – 6:50
them. And they're selling the same two
6:50 – 6:52
pathways. Right. And so consequently, this
6:52 – 6:55
was something that we did to carry on
6:55 – 6:58
with. And then we got on to solubilizing
6:58 – 7:01
urea. We called it melting urea back then.
7:01 – 7:03
And we honestly didn't know what we were
7:03 – 7:07
up against. So I got this tank and I had
7:07 – 7:09
Andrew record what we were doing because
7:09 – 7:12
if something would have gone wrong and
7:12 – 7:15
there was a big explosion or whatever, at
7:15 – 7:18
least they had a video evidence of what it
7:18 – 7:19
was that we were doing.
7:19 – 7:22
Because remember, back in those days,
7:22 – 7:24
nobody talked about.
7:24 – 7:26
This. It was voodoo magic.
7:26 – 7:29
It was evil. It was wrong.
7:29 – 7:30
It was unconventional.
7:30 – 7:33
And there was no assistance whatsoever.
7:33 – 7:36
And so we were going into this blind.
7:36 – 7:40
So let's chat a bit about melting urea,
7:40 – 7:41
solubilizing urea.
7:41 – 7:44
Why is that a good idea?
7:44 – 7:47
And why is liquid urea better than, say,
7:47 – 7:50
liquid 28 or 32? Okay.
7:50 – 7:53
Well One of the things that we, when
7:53 – 7:57
we started doing this, we were told that
7:57 – 8:00
the buried research that was out there
8:00 – 8:04
indicated that there was a 42 to 1
8:04 – 8:08
efficiency factor when you can put it in
8:08 – 8:11
the form that the plant can utilize and
8:11 – 8:14
take in as a foliar product.
8:14 – 8:18
And that intrigued me because as a younger
8:18 – 8:21
farmer trying to get this figured out and
8:21 – 8:25
try and pay His bills, if you can
8:25 – 8:29
use 25 of a product and get the
8:29 – 8:32
same effect, you have my attention.
8:32 – 8:35
So that's what we went on and
8:35 – 8:39
tried to do. So you're referring
8:39 – 8:42
specifically to a 42 efficiency factor
8:42 – 8:44
from foliar application versus soil
8:44 – 8:47
application? Not 42 42 times the
8:47 – 8:48
efficiency. Correct.
8:48 – 8:52
Yeah. So we're putting on in our
8:52 – 8:54
solution that we make.
8:54 – 8:58
We end up with an 1800 product,
8:58 – 9:01
which has two pounds of nitrogen for
9:01 – 9:05
every gallon that the solution contains.
9:05 – 9:08
So, two pounds, we put on five
9:08 – 9:11
gallons, which is 10 pounds.
9:11 – 9:14
So, we're paying for 10 pounds of
9:14 – 9:18
nitrogen, but the plants are seeing the
9:18 – 9:22
equivalent of 42 pounds of soil applied
9:22 – 9:25
urea equivalent. That's getting that's a
9:25 – 9:29
pretty big, that's a pretty big economic
9:29 – 9:31
deal in today's world.
9:32 – 9:35
You would not believe the pushback the
9:35 – 9:38
first years on how this was nonsense and
9:38 – 9:42
how plants don't have teeth and all this
9:42 – 9:45
other nonsense. I want to call it
9:45 – 9:46
mainstream agronomy.
9:46 – 9:49
And I'm not trying to cast a bad
9:49 – 9:52
light on them. They've got their place.
9:52 – 9:56
But we also, you know, have have to
9:56 – 9:59
realize that they were educated a certain
9:59 – 10:02
way. And as we had just discussed earlier,
10:02 – 10:06
there are other roads to Rome, if you
10:06 – 10:09
will. Yeah. So, what started happening
10:09 – 10:11
those early experiments, those early days
10:11 – 10:14
when you started playing around with
10:14 – 10:16
putting on foliar urea?
10:16 – 10:19
What were the results that you were
10:19 – 10:21
getting? What were you seeing?
10:21 – 10:24
Well, we were seeing the same output.
10:24 – 10:26
For the reduced input.
10:26 – 10:29
We did find a couple of learning curves
10:29 – 10:32
that we had to negotiate around.
10:32 – 10:35
One of them was we had once again
10:35 – 10:38
there was no education out there, there
10:38 – 10:41
was no track record or prior experience
10:41 – 10:44
that we could lean on.
10:45 – 10:47
And so we put this with our herbicide.
10:47 – 10:49
For the most part everything worked fine
10:49 – 10:52
and then one time I put it with a
10:52 – 10:54
particular herbicide that we use up here
10:54 – 10:56
called Tundra. And it's a contact
10:56 – 10:58
herbicide as well as it contains a
10:58 – 10:59
systemic mode of action.
10:59 – 11:01
And we absolutely fried the crop.
11:01 – 11:04
So I was just about in tears because this
11:04 – 11:06
was a brand new variety.
11:06 – 11:09
I was one of the few seed growers that had
11:09 – 11:11
it, and I absolutely cooked the crop.
11:11 – 11:14
And so I called Gerald up and I said, You
11:14 – 11:17
need to come out here because I don't know
11:17 – 11:20
what I did and I don't know what to do.
11:21 – 11:23
So he came up and I said, I'm not even
11:23 – 11:25
going out in the field with you.
11:25 – 11:27
I'm so sick to my stomach about this.
11:27 – 11:30
I don't even want to go out in the field.
11:30 – 11:33
He says, okay. So he came back to the
11:33 – 11:35
house, knocked on the door, and said, He
11:35 – 11:37
had this funny grin on his face, and he
11:37 – 11:39
says, Go fishing, Mike, in two weeks.
11:39 – 11:42
Yes, he says, Go fishing and don't look at
11:42 – 11:44
it for two weeks. He says, You got new
11:44 – 11:46
growing points coming, and he said, Boy,
11:46 – 11:49
are they coming. But he said, It's gonna
11:49 – 11:51
look like crap for the next couple weeks.
11:51 – 11:53
Well, so we did, and believe it or not,
11:53 – 11:56
that turned out to be one of the best
11:56 – 11:57
barley crops we've ever had.
11:57 – 11:59
And so, from that point Once again, it's
11:59 – 12:02
one of those things you put back into your
12:02 – 12:03
mental notebook.
12:03 – 12:07
Okay, well, we can do this, but we need
12:07 – 12:10
to adjust a little bit if we're going to
12:10 – 12:14
use a mode of action that's a contact mode
12:14 – 12:16
of action as opposed to systemic.
12:16 – 12:20
So little things as we went along, we were
12:20 – 12:22
learning these things one precept upon
12:22 – 12:25
precept. Now, I want to just take a quick
12:25 – 12:28
sidebar here from this main conversation,
12:28 – 12:31
but the common Your comment, the comment
12:31 – 12:34
that you just made, it was one of the
12:34 – 12:37
best barley crops that you've ever had.
12:37 – 12:39
And it had that severe stress.
12:39 – 12:41
And there's this prevailing pattern across
12:41 – 12:44
a wide variety of different crops that
12:44 – 12:46
when there is substantial stress at
12:46 – 12:48
relatively early growth stages, provided
12:48 – 12:52
they have the means and then the follow up
12:52 – 12:55
capacity to recover from that, those are
12:55 – 12:56
often extremely high yielding crops.
12:56 – 12:58
This is a prevailing pattern.
12:58 – 13:00
I've seen it across beans.
13:00 – 13:03
I've seen it in green beans.
13:03 – 13:05
I've seen it in cereal grains.
13:05 – 13:07
I've seen it in cotton.
13:07 – 13:09
I've seen it in tomatoes.
13:09 – 13:11
I've seen it in many different.
13:11 – 13:14
And there's some interesting physiology of
13:14 – 13:15
what happens here.
13:15 – 13:18
But the short version is that when a plant
13:18 – 13:21
has severe stress early in its life, it
13:21 – 13:23
essentially immunizes against stress later
13:23 – 13:24
in life.
13:25 – 13:28
So when it has stress later on during the
13:28 – 13:31
grain fill period or any type of stress
13:31 – 13:33
that occurs later in life, it just shrugs
13:33 – 13:36
it off and keeps right on going because
13:36 – 13:39
it's to some degree been immunized to it.
13:39 – 13:41
Well, let me be clear.
13:41 – 13:43
That the plant wasn't the field, it was
13:43 – 13:46
not the only thing that was being stressed
13:46 – 13:48
at that point in time.
13:48 – 13:50
Yeah, yeah, I can imagine that.
13:50 – 13:52
So, there's so many follow up questions
13:52 – 13:55
here, but just real quick on that last
13:55 – 13:58
one, John. So, I work for a vegetable seed
13:58 – 13:59
company in the Netherlands.
13:59 – 14:01
So, that's where we've crossed paths
14:01 – 14:04
before as well. So, on the early stress
14:04 – 14:06
conversation, that's something that we see
14:06 – 14:09
as well across. A variety of crops is that
14:09 – 14:13
when the nicking is off and we have to do
14:13 – 14:14
trimming, generally speaking, of course,
14:14 – 14:16
there's some varietal and genetic
14:16 – 14:18
differences, but generally speaking, when
14:18 – 14:21
we do the earlier trims, those are the
14:21 – 14:23
more responsive crops where we get better
14:23 – 14:25
yield, but more importantly for us,
14:25 – 14:28
quality. So on germination, energy, off
14:28 – 14:31
types, or sorry, inbreds, those different
14:31 – 14:34
things. So there's a huge response from
14:34 – 14:36
developing that stress early.
14:36 – 14:39
It's something that we see across a
14:39 – 14:43
variety of crops. So, for people who are
14:43 – 14:46
not familiar with the terminology that you
14:46 – 14:49
were using in terms of nicking plants, can
14:49 – 14:52
you describe the two different operations
14:52 – 14:56
that you were describing and the scope of
14:56 – 14:59
how much of the crop or the plant
14:59 – 15:02
you're removing? Yeah, so basically in
15:02 – 15:04
hybrid seed production, basically the
15:04 – 15:08
nicking is the timing of the males and
15:08 – 15:09
the females flowering.
15:09 – 15:13
And so generally speaking, you want the
15:13 – 15:15
males flowering earlier so that there's
15:15 – 15:19
sufficient pollen for when the females are
15:19 – 15:22
receptive. So trying to time up that with
15:22 – 15:25
variety of strategies of sowing dates,
15:25 – 15:27
transplanting dates, trimming, et cetera.
15:27 – 15:30
Yeah, thank you. So this conversation
15:30 – 15:32
around urea applications, Patrick, you
15:32 – 15:35
were describing how you started by doing
15:35 – 15:37
applications with the herbicides.
15:38 – 15:41
Are you still doing that today.
15:41 – 15:43
What does a common crop grow?
15:43 – 15:46
What does a Kung crop growing period look
15:46 – 15:49
like? How many different applications are
15:49 – 15:51
you making and at what stages?
15:51 – 15:54
Well, it depends on the crop.
15:54 – 15:57
Generally, on a normal year, we would make
15:57 – 15:59
two applications. Sometimes we might make
15:59 – 16:02
a third. First application would be now
16:02 – 16:05
we're talking about the solubilized urea.
16:05 – 16:07
The first application would generally be
16:07 – 16:10
when we have our herbicide going on.
16:10 – 16:13
So we'll piggyback that at the same time.
16:13 – 16:16
And then Andrew is our mad scientist.
16:16 – 16:19
He's the one that is responsible for
16:19 – 16:21
adding the different nutrients and
16:21 – 16:23
everything else to balance the nutritional
16:23 – 16:25
load on that plant.
16:25 – 16:28
And then the second time would be when
16:28 – 16:31
everybody else is usually putting on a
16:31 – 16:34
fungicide. We would be putting on, or
16:34 – 16:37
maybe just a little bit before, we would
16:37 – 16:39
be putting a second application of
16:39 – 16:41
nutrition onto the plants.
16:41 – 16:45
Yeah, can I interject on that one one?
16:45 – 16:49
Sure. So on the cereals, we try to
16:49 – 16:52
get that second application before stem
16:52 – 16:55
elongation. So at that tillering stage.
16:55 – 16:58
On the canola, we'll try to get that
16:58 – 17:01
second application on before or at
17:01 – 17:05
bolting. On corn, yeah, I mean, we'll do
17:05 – 17:08
two or three passes probably for the
17:08 – 17:11
probably before V7, V8 and our flax.
17:11 – 17:15
I mean, we again, try to get that
17:15 – 17:16
on before flowering.
17:16 – 17:20
And then later on, like on the cereals,
17:20 – 17:23
dad was talking about that third pass.
17:23 – 17:27
If we're starting to see some of that
17:27 – 17:30
cannibalization on the lower leaves, then
17:30 – 17:34
maybe we'll come in with a third pass
17:34 – 17:37
and at that flag leaf stage or early
17:37 – 17:41
heading, if we're again starting to see
17:41 – 17:43
some countable Cannibalization and yeah,
17:43 – 17:47
try to follow suit with some of the
17:47 – 17:51
other crops too, just being aware of what
17:51 – 17:53
a nitrogen deficiency looks like.
17:55 – 17:58
Are you then making later applications on
17:58 – 18:00
the corn as well, post pollination?
18:00 – 18:03
We don't have a drone, and I mean,
18:03 – 18:07
quite frankly, the airplane at 18 bucks an
18:07 – 18:10
acre is rather expensive to put nutrition
18:10 – 18:13
on. So we would love to, but we
18:13 – 18:17
don't. We try to go in as much
18:17 – 18:20
as our high clearance sprayer will allow
18:20 – 18:23
us to. The corn will be tickling the
18:23 – 18:26
bottom of the sprayer, essentially, or
18:26 – 18:29
even kind of leaning over as we're driving
18:29 – 18:32
slow. But no, we're unfortunately just at
18:32 – 18:35
the staging of the corn, we can't get
18:35 – 18:38
in there before or well, just at
18:38 – 18:39
pollination there.
18:39 – 18:42
We would like to, but we can't.
18:42 – 18:45
Now, Patrick had mentioned that your early
18:45 – 18:48
applications, you were using a rate of 10
18:48 – 18:50
pounds of nitrogen per acre.
18:50 – 18:52
Have you experimented with various
18:52 – 18:55
application rates and what are the max
18:55 – 18:58
rates or the max dilution that you are
18:58 – 19:00
comfortable with? Well, people much
19:00 – 19:03
smarter than us have said that the plant
19:03 – 19:06
can only take in 10 actual pounds at a
19:06 – 19:10
time. So for us, it makes more sense to
19:10 – 19:11
spoonfeed the cops.
19:11 – 19:14
Hang on a second, It's like You're going
19:14 – 19:18
to put it on the leaf and the plant
19:18 – 19:20
is not going to absorb it?
19:20 – 19:24
All at once. I mean, we haven't really
19:24 – 19:27
played with higher rates than that five US
19:27 – 19:31
gallons per acre of that 1800 which is
19:31 – 19:34
10 actual pounds. Not saying that it
19:34 – 19:36
wouldn't necessarily work or you couldn't,
19:36 – 19:38
but personally, we just haven't.
19:38 – 19:42
Yeah. Again, we want to, we're more of
19:42 – 19:45
the opinion that. Again, we're more of the
19:45 – 19:48
opinion that taking that same amount and
19:48 – 19:51
spreading it over a twoweek or 10day
19:51 – 19:55
period is better than trying to throw it
19:55 – 19:57
all up front at once.
19:57 – 20:00
I know that Patrick mentioned a bit ago
20:00 – 20:03
that you're playing around with adding
20:03 – 20:06
other nutrients into some of these tank
20:06 – 20:07
mixes as well.
20:08 – 20:10
Have you experimented with concentration,
20:10 – 20:12
what is the maximum concentration that
20:12 – 20:13
you're comfortable with?
20:13 – 20:17
And this is, I know this is getting to
20:17 – 20:19
be an important question for people who
20:19 – 20:22
are flying applications on and trying to
20:22 – 20:25
go with ultra low volumes per acre.
20:25 – 20:28
Yeah, so we've had clients who have done
20:28 – 20:31
just straight product, so taking that five
20:31 – 20:33
US gallons of solubilized urea and just
20:33 – 20:36
applying that. They haven't seen any kind
20:36 – 20:39
of leaf burn, tip burn, that sort of
20:39 – 20:42
thing. The only comment is that they find
20:42 – 20:44
that there's crystallization left after
20:44 – 20:47
those water droplets evaporate, but no
20:47 – 20:49
plant damage or anything like that.
20:49 – 20:50
That's intriguing.
20:50 – 20:53
And, you know, I would guess there's some
20:53 – 20:54
environmental and climactic considerations
20:54 – 20:57
here, but we know that urea is
20:57 – 21:00
hydroscopic. And so if you are in a high
21:00 – 21:03
humidity environment, if you're in a
21:03 – 21:05
dryland environment, then it's a different
21:05 – 21:08
story. But if you're in a high humidity
21:08 – 21:11
environment, I would guess that any urea
21:11 – 21:14
crystals that are on the leaf surface are
21:14 – 21:17
going to dissolve over a several day
21:17 – 21:18
period.
21:18 – 21:21
Yes, and that would be true.
21:21 – 21:23
Just in our area, we're technically
21:23 – 21:26
considered a semi arid desert.
21:26 – 21:29
So our humidity levels rarely get above 60
21:29 – 21:33
maybe only for a few hours in the
21:33 – 21:36
morning. What other nutrients have you
21:36 – 21:38
experimented with adding in with the
21:38 – 21:42
liquid urea? What are you doing today?
21:42 – 21:45
A little bit of everything, it seems like.
21:45 – 21:49
This morning on the corn, put in some
21:49 – 21:51
phosphorus, some potassium, some zinc,
21:51 – 21:54
some molybdenum, some molasses, some trace
21:54 – 21:57
micronutrients as well in one of the
21:57 – 21:59
products, copper, iron, manganese, that
21:59 – 22:03
product also has a little bit of zinc
22:03 – 22:07
and some nickel in it, and we threw
22:07 – 22:10
in some boron with it as well.
22:10 – 22:13
And your fulvic. Fulvic, that's just a
22:13 – 22:16
standard on every folio application for
22:16 – 22:19
us. Just for as a frame of reference,
22:19 – 22:23
what stage is your corn crop at right
22:23 – 22:27
now? Well, we got shredded with hail about
22:27 – 22:30
three weeks ago. There's a lot of leafs
22:30 – 22:31
with not much internode.
22:31 – 22:35
I haven't been out in a few days to really
22:35 – 22:38
assess it. Patrick, where do you think
22:38 – 22:40
we're at? V6, somewhere around the V6.
22:40 – 22:43
Basically, the plant had to start all over
22:43 – 22:46
again. We had three inch stubs left in the
22:46 – 22:48
field after the hailstorm.
22:48 – 22:51
And so we basically had to start over from
22:51 – 22:53
scratch after we put the hail recovery
22:53 – 22:55
products on. And it's coming back
22:55 – 22:58
beautifully, but it's going to be delayed.
22:58 – 23:01
So you had three inch stocks and you still
23:01 – 23:04
had an apical meristem that was able to
23:04 – 23:05
recover from that?
23:06 – 23:07
Yes. Yes. Wow. Yeah.
23:07 – 23:10
All right. Let's talk about hail recovery
23:10 – 23:14
because I've had a lot of fun with hail
23:14 – 23:15
recovery over the years.
23:15 – 23:17
What have you been doing?
23:17 – 23:20
What did you do for hail recovery?
23:20 – 23:23
Well, we're not going to take credit for
23:23 – 23:26
it. We work with the gentleman who's much
23:26 – 23:30
smarter than us. He's got his PhD in plant
23:30 – 23:32
pathology and physiology and gave us the
23:32 – 23:34
recommendations on this particular product
23:34 – 23:37
that has some stress relief technology in
23:37 – 23:40
it. It's a phosphorus based product with
23:40 – 23:42
some micronutrients and then some
23:42 – 23:45
cytokinin hormones along with it and some
23:45 – 23:48
boron to, yeah, basically help heal on to
23:48 – 23:50
basically help heal the wounds there.
23:50 – 23:53
And we applied that immediately after
23:53 – 23:57
within 48 hours of that hail and yeah,
23:57 – 23:59
the plant's doing the rest.
23:59 – 24:02
I had this fascinating experience.
24:02 – 24:05
This is now, I don't know, close to
24:05 – 24:09
20 years ago where we had a cantaloupe
24:09 – 24:13
crop that was about 70 acres down in
24:13 – 24:16
I think South Carolina, if memory serves
24:16 – 24:20
me correctly. And The storm was severe.
24:20 – 24:23
Your hail damage and the cantaloupe were
24:23 – 24:25
approximately softball size, maybe three
24:25 – 24:28
inches, four inches in diameter, still had
24:28 – 24:31
quite a bit of growth left.
24:31 – 24:35
And we were able to, we put together
24:35 – 24:37
a hail recovery foliar application.
24:37 – 24:41
The farmer was able to get about a third
24:41 – 24:43
of the field applied immediately within
24:43 – 24:46
the next, the following day, within 24
24:46 – 24:48
hours. And then additional rainstorms came
24:48 – 24:51
up and he was able to finish.
24:51 – 24:53
He got another section of the field
24:53 – 24:56
applied, I think three days later, like 72
24:56 – 24:59
hours later. And about half the field got
24:59 – 25:02
none whatsoever until two weeks later,
25:02 – 25:04
just because it was ongoing hurricane,
25:04 – 25:06
hurricane event, hurricane weather, just
25:06 – 25:08
ongoing wet and rain constantly.
25:08 – 25:11
And when he got to harvest, there were
25:11 – 25:12
these three dramatic differences.
25:12 – 25:15
Where the section that got the first
25:15 – 25:18
foliar, he had a full harvest with minimal
25:18 – 25:20
scarring, even though there was scarring
25:20 – 25:23
on the melons themselves, but they were
25:23 – 25:24
still saleable and marketable.
25:25 – 25:27
Second section had a substantial crop
25:27 – 25:29
loss, but there was still there.
25:29 – 25:32
And the third section, he might as well
25:32 – 25:35
not have bothered with the effort of
25:35 – 25:37
harvesting. And that was quite a learning
25:37 – 25:39
experience for me about the timeliness of
25:39 – 25:42
a foliar application after hail damage.
25:42 – 25:44
Like, you have to get out there right
25:44 – 25:48
away. Yeah. Well, as my dad likes to say,
25:48 – 25:51
time is tissue. I used to work EMS, and
25:51 – 25:54
when we had a heart attack or a stroke
25:54 – 25:57
patient, the longer that we stayed on
25:57 – 25:59
scene playing around, the more tissue
25:59 – 26:01
damage there was done to the patient's
26:01 – 26:02
heart or brain.
26:03 – 26:05
And so time was tissue.
26:05 – 26:08
So, you know, let's get going here and get
26:08 – 26:10
it down to primary care.
26:10 – 26:13
Whereas, same thing applies, I use that
26:13 – 26:14
analogy for our hail.
26:14 – 26:17
Yeah, you can wait, but you're going to
26:17 – 26:19
have more ethylene production, you're
26:19 – 26:22
going to have a harder time turning that
26:22 – 26:24
plant around the longer you wait.
26:24 – 26:27
So time is tissue, but in this case, the
26:27 – 26:30
tissue turns out to be yield usually.
26:30 – 26:32
Yeah. So Patrick, earlier in our
26:32 – 26:35
conversation, I asked you the question and
26:35 – 26:37
we partially answered it, but not
26:37 – 26:40
entirely. You why urea instead of 32 and
26:40 – 26:43
or 28 and your Instead of 32 andor 28.
26:43 – 26:46
And your answer was well, there's a
26:46 – 26:48
greater efficiency with foliar application
26:48 – 26:49
versus soil application for urea.
26:49 – 26:52
But this question still remains why urea
26:52 – 26:55
instead of 32? Well, I'm not a scientist,
26:55 – 26:59
but I can tell you what I found because I
26:59 – 27:02
thought I was going to take the easy path
27:02 – 27:03
one year.
27:03 – 27:07
And up here, we don't have 32, we have
27:07 – 27:09
2800, but same thing.
27:09 – 27:12
And we decided, well okay, it's already
27:12 – 27:14
solubilized. It's already in liquid form.
27:14 – 27:16
Let's just go with that.
27:16 – 27:18
And so we did that.
27:18 – 27:22
And we ended up with a bunch of crop
27:22 – 27:25
burning. We ended up with not the results
27:25 – 27:27
that we wanted to see.
27:27 – 27:30
It's like we weren't getting the
27:30 – 27:33
efficiency of it. And somebody who was
27:33 – 27:36
much smarter than me said, well, duh, your
27:36 – 27:40
UAN is roughly 25 of that total solution.
27:40 – 27:43
Your urea is roughly 25 of that total
27:43 – 27:46
solution. So let's take your 42 to 1,
27:46 – 27:50
multiply it by 025 and you're ending up
27:50 – 27:52
with a 1 efficiency factor.
27:52 – 27:55
So you think you're getting that
27:55 – 27:57
efficiency, you're not getting it.
27:57 – 28:01
And then for no additional charge, you get
28:01 – 28:05
to burn your crop from the ammonium that's
28:05 – 28:06
contained in the solution.
28:06 – 28:09
So good decisions come from experience.
28:09 – 28:12
And experience comes from bad decisions.
28:12 – 28:15
So if I'm understanding your thought
28:15 – 28:17
process correctly, you are suggesting that
28:17 – 28:21
the 42 to 1 efficiency gain from foliar
28:21 – 28:24
versus soil application is specific to
28:24 – 28:27
urea and not to nitrogen in general.
28:27 – 28:30
That's what we haven't done much
28:30 – 28:33
experimenting on side by side trials, but
28:33 – 28:36
you stick your finger in a light socket
28:36 – 28:39
and you get electrocuted, electric shock,
28:39 – 28:42
you're very hesitant to do it again.
28:42 – 28:46
And I don't need a second shot across
28:46 – 28:50
the bow to tell me that that's not
28:50 – 28:52
necessarily the way to go.
28:52 – 28:56
I could be wrong, I stand to be
28:56 – 28:59
corrected, but at this point, that's what
28:59 – 29:02
our assumptions have led us to at this
29:02 – 29:05
stage. Yeah. And our experiences.
29:05 – 29:07
Now, historically, crops and people in
29:07 – 29:10
academia who have played around with
29:10 – 29:13
foliar urea applications have come to
29:13 – 29:15
understand that there are some crops,
29:15 – 29:18
particularly citrus and I think maybe
29:18 – 29:21
tomatoes and some others, who are more
29:21 – 29:25
susceptible to a metabolite or a metabolic
29:25 – 29:27
byproduct that is produced from urea
29:27 – 29:29
manufacturing called Bayaret.
29:29 – 29:33
And there's been some emphasis in certain
29:33 – 29:36
parts of the country and the world
29:36 – 29:39
on making foliar applications with low
29:39 – 29:43
bioret urea. Is this something that you've
29:43 – 29:46
prioritized or are you just using standard
29:46 – 29:50
urea? We have heard a lot of
29:50 – 29:53
talk about it. Once again, according to
29:53 – 29:56
the standards that are in the United
29:56 – 30:00
States and Canada, urea is only supposed
30:00 – 30:03
to have a maximum production level of
30:03 – 30:06
1 bioret In the manufacturing process,
30:06 – 30:10
otherwise, it has to be discarded or
30:10 – 30:13
what have you, or can't be sold.
30:13 – 30:17
We haven't, to our knowledge, have ever
30:17 – 30:18
experienced the problem.
30:18 – 30:22
We have used multiple loads of urea
30:22 – 30:23
from different manufacturers.
30:23 – 30:26
We have never run into it.
30:26 – 30:29
The biggest one I hear that coming
30:29 – 30:33
from is somebody who's trying to educate
30:33 – 30:36
and dissuade somebody from using urea
30:36 – 30:39
volubilized? And the argument is, well,
30:39 – 30:42
the bayourette's going to burn the field
30:42 – 30:46
up and you're not going to get
30:46 – 30:47
a crop.
30:48 – 30:51
Fear plays a big part in this transition
30:51 – 30:54
to foliar nutrition and foliar management
30:54 – 30:57
because there's always the boogeyman in
30:57 – 30:59
the corner that, what about this?
30:59 – 31:03
What about, you know, are you sure you
31:03 – 31:07
want to do this because of all these
31:07 – 31:10
risks out there? And so there's a lot
31:10 – 31:14
of Talk about it. All it takes is
31:14 – 31:16
one prominent podcast and everybody's
31:16 – 31:18
fearful of the Bayourette.
31:18 – 31:21
I know we have had inquiries from around
31:21 – 31:25
the world. One person tried it in Pakistan
31:25 – 31:29
and they tried it on their wheat crop
31:29 – 31:32
out there and they did see some burning.
31:32 – 31:35
But apparently the buyer there's no
31:35 – 31:38
regulations over there, and that was
31:38 – 31:40
problematic. In North America, I honestly
31:40 – 31:44
don't know if I can say I've experienced
31:44 – 31:48
or talked to anybody who has had a
31:48 – 31:50
negative experience due to the Bayourette
31:50 – 31:53
content. Okay, this is interesting because
31:53 – 31:56
I was unaware of the North American
31:56 – 31:57
production standard.
31:57 – 32:00
I did just somewhat surface level digging
32:00 – 32:03
into this a couple of weeks ago when I was
32:03 – 32:06
asked a question on an me anything session
32:06 – 32:08
and On an Ask Me Anything session.
32:08 – 32:12
And my memory is a bit fuzzy now, but from
32:12 – 32:15
what I recall, first of all, grain crops,
32:15 – 32:17
particularly the C4 grasses, are
32:17 – 32:19
relatively low susceptibility to the bio.
32:19 – 32:21
They have a greater capacity to metabolize
32:21 – 32:23
it than some other crops do.
32:23 – 32:27
But I'm a bit fuzzy now on exactly where
32:27 – 32:30
the threshold was, but I want to say they
32:30 – 32:32
were referring to anything as less than
32:32 – 32:34
125 as being low biuret.
32:34 – 32:37
So if that is the case, then what you're
32:37 – 32:39
describing is that the North American
32:39 – 32:41
marketplace available urea largely
32:41 – 32:42
qualifies as low biuret.
32:42 – 32:45
Great. And when we were in Burlington for
32:45 – 32:47
that High Plains NoTill Conference, there
32:47 – 32:50
was a bunch of us that had met.
32:50 – 32:52
And once again, I love these conferences
32:52 – 32:55
because you get such a diverse of
32:55 – 32:58
knowledge and there was a guy actually in
32:58 – 33:01
the industry that had a lot of experience
33:01 – 33:04
with it. And he was giving us some
33:04 – 33:05
education on that.
33:05 – 33:08
And that's where I had actually learned
33:08 – 33:12
that there is a national standard and it
33:12 – 33:15
turned out to be a North American standard
33:15 – 33:18
for Bayourette. One of the questions that
33:18 – 33:22
I have for you, you are now, you've
33:22 – 33:24
described your various foliar applications
33:24 – 33:27
that you are doing on your various crops.
33:27 – 33:31
Are you doing any soil application yet at
33:31 – 33:34
all? Or maybe a better question of perhaps
33:34 – 33:37
Broader question is, what are you doing in
33:37 – 33:40
soil for nitrogen management more broadly?
33:40 – 33:43
I'll let Andrew answer that one.
33:43 – 33:46
Well, we've tried to push the envelope,
33:46 – 33:49
you know, last couple of years, really
33:49 – 33:50
pushing the envelope.
33:50 – 33:53
Last year, we didn't put any upfront
33:53 – 33:56
nitrogen on any of crops.
33:56 – 33:59
And I think we saw a yield hit
33:59 – 34:01
on that as a result.
34:01 – 34:05
Albeit, I mean, you know, like we had
34:05 – 34:08
neighbors with their corn, you know, doing
34:08 – 34:12
190 to 200 bushels an acre, and we
34:12 – 34:15
were at 177 with about 40 pounds of
34:15 – 34:17
actual nitrogen applied.
34:17 – 34:20
So, you know, when urea is 500 bucks
34:20 – 34:23
a ton, you know, that's a different
34:23 – 34:26
conversation than 1300 bucks a ton.
34:26 – 34:30
So, you know, I think we maybe left
34:30 – 34:33
some yield on the table, but, you know,
34:33 – 34:37
you got to look at that and see
34:37 – 34:39
operationally what's better for you.
34:39 – 34:42
But typically we're applying 2800 in
34:42 – 34:45
furrow with our liquid kit and using that
34:45 – 34:49
at seeding time. We'll try to get a
34:49 – 34:51
fertigation pass or two on.
34:51 – 34:54
Yeah, we're under irrigation as well.
34:54 – 34:57
So we'll try and throw some through the
34:57 – 34:59
pivot if we can.
35:00 – 35:03
Um, early on. If we can early on, and
35:03 – 35:06
that's about it. Like, we really don't use
35:06 – 35:09
granular fertility other than maybe gypsum
35:09 – 35:12
or you know, zinc sulfate this year, or
35:12 – 35:14
maybe some potash where we're really high
35:14 – 35:16
in potash or in magnesium.
35:16 – 35:19
But yeah, for the most part, we're not
35:19 – 35:22
using granular urea on the soil.
35:22 – 35:25
So, just to jump in there real quick.
35:25 – 35:27
John, just to expand on that.
35:27 – 35:30
So, one of the big focuses for us in
35:30 – 35:33
the last few years has just been net
35:33 – 35:36
income per acre. So, we inherently know
35:36 – 35:39
that we're leaving a little bit of yield
35:39 – 35:42
on the table, but we're really trying to
35:42 – 35:44
maximize or minimize what we're putting
35:44 – 35:47
into the system. And we take soil tests
35:47 – 35:50
every year. Obviously, the starting point,
35:50 – 35:53
we're making sure that we're not ending up
35:53 – 35:55
with less nitrogen or organic matter in
35:55 – 35:58
the soil on a year to year basis.
35:59 – 36:01
So, that's the starting point.
36:01 – 36:03
But We're really focusing paying more
36:03 – 36:06
attention To net income per acre, because
36:06 – 36:09
yeah, if we're just chasing yield, and one
36:09 – 36:12
of dad's favorite sayings is spending our
36:12 – 36:15
way to success, that's not the model that
36:15 – 36:17
we're looking for for longevity.
36:17 – 36:20
And what has your pattern been of
36:20 – 36:22
improving profitability per acre?
36:22 – 36:25
What has that looked like over the last
36:25 – 36:28
several years that you've really been
36:28 – 36:31
focusing on that. Well, when wheat Wheat's
36:31 – 36:34
15 an acre or a bushel versus 7 a
36:34 – 36:36
bushel, it's a very different
36:36 – 36:39
conversation. And again, with the changing
36:39 – 36:41
in fertilizer prices, that conversation
36:41 – 36:44
changes almost daily, it seems, but the
36:44 – 36:48
trend is up. I mean, no, we don't hit
36:48 – 36:49
home runs every time.
36:49 – 36:53
And, you know, we get events like hail or
36:53 – 36:56
whatnot that come through take all that
36:56 – 36:59
profitability away, but at the same time
36:59 – 37:01
it comes down to managing Risk.
37:01 – 37:05
And if we don't have all of that fertility
37:05 – 37:08
upfront and all that money invested, and
37:08 – 37:11
something like a hail event happens, well,
37:11 – 37:14
yeah, we have some losses, but maybe not
37:14 – 37:17
lost as much as what we could have.
37:17 – 37:20
And then, you know, crops are looking
37:20 – 37:23
great. Sure, we can throw some more
37:23 – 37:25
foliars on, things like that.
37:25 – 37:29
So it's, you know, I don't like to say
37:29 – 37:32
we have a particular way of doing things
37:32 – 37:34
every year. Because every year has
37:34 – 37:37
different challenges and we just got to
37:37 – 37:41
roll with the punches and do our best, I
37:41 – 37:44
guess. One of the things that we have
37:44 – 37:47
been, I guess, working with over the years
37:47 – 37:50
without even realizing it is trying to
37:50 – 37:51
capitalize on efficiencies.
37:51 – 37:54
Everybody wants a 10, you know, one quart
37:54 – 37:57
per acre that's gonna solve all the
37:57 – 38:00
problems. And we haven't found that to be
38:00 – 38:03
accurate or true. It seems like it's a
38:03 – 38:06
combination of a bunch of little successes
38:06 – 38:10
2 here, 3 there. Well, this one gives us
38:10 – 38:12
6 here. You do those things cumulatively,
38:12 – 38:16
and then you look over your shoulder, and
38:16 – 38:19
all of a sudden, you're 30 more profitable
38:19 – 38:22
than you were. Earlier on, you were asking
38:22 – 38:25
about when do we go out with our
38:25 – 38:26
nutrition?
38:26 – 38:29
And this year, I said, well, normally.
38:29 – 38:32
We put it on with our first herbicide
38:32 – 38:35
pass. This year, on one of a couple of our
38:35 – 38:39
fields, it was so dry out here, we didn't
38:39 – 38:40
have any herbicide requirement.
38:40 – 38:43
There was no need because there was
38:43 – 38:45
nothing growing. However, our plants were
38:45 – 38:47
at the three leaf stage.
38:47 – 38:50
And our practice is we like to be able to
38:50 – 38:54
put on a pass of nutrition that is all
38:54 – 38:56
encompassing, that has basically, it's
38:56 – 38:59
like a lick tub for your crops, so to
38:59 – 39:01
speak. When the that when the maximum
39:01 – 39:04
yield potential is being set, and from
39:04 – 39:07
what we've been told, it's determined at
39:07 – 39:10
the three to four leaf stage on cereals,
39:10 – 39:13
we like to have that front end loaded
39:13 – 39:15
nutrition there in small quantities, so
39:15 – 39:18
when the plant is making that decision, it
39:18 – 39:21
can check all the boxes and go, yeah,
39:21 – 39:23
we're gonna add another three rows onto
39:23 – 39:24
this head.
39:25 – 39:28
Doesn't mean we're gonna get it in the
39:28 – 39:32
end, because it's a long way to harvest,
39:32 – 39:35
but there's some efficiencies to be gained
39:35 – 39:38
there by getting rid of midrow banding, by
39:38 – 39:41
getting rid of, you know, the two by
39:41 – 39:44
two and putting everything right in the
39:44 – 39:47
seed trench with the seed.
39:47 – 39:50
It's our belief that every seed is getting
39:50 – 39:53
it. And then some would argue, well,
39:53 – 39:57
you're only putting on so many gallons per
39:57 – 40:00
acre. It's a drip, No, actually it's not.
40:00 – 40:03
Andrew's had it formulated so that we've
40:03 – 40:06
put larger orifices on our drill.
40:06 – 40:09
And our planter so that we're actually
40:09 – 40:12
adding water into the solution so it's a
40:12 – 40:15
steady stream. So every single seed gets
40:15 – 40:17
that nutrition in the furrow.
40:17 – 40:21
And then so there's a little bit of
40:21 – 40:24
efficiency there. And then if we can
40:24 – 40:27
capitalize on the 42 to 1 efficiency of
40:27 – 40:30
the knife, 17 to one on the phosphorus.
40:30 – 40:33
Little efficiencies there like that.
40:33 – 40:36
And like I say it's little steps and
40:36 – 40:39
then that's where the profitability comes
40:39 – 40:42
in. But it requires us to unlearn some
40:42 – 40:45
of the things that our mainstream agronomy
40:45 – 40:48
has taught us to be true, step over
40:48 – 40:52
and then be prepared and humble enough to
40:52 – 40:55
relearn some of these other concepts that
40:55 – 40:57
can indeed offer profitability.
40:57 – 40:59
If we're willing to go that path.
40:59 – 41:02
So, in addition to the pieces that we've
41:02 – 41:05
talked about so far, you mentioned putting
41:05 – 41:07
the seed on the furrow.
41:07 – 41:09
We've talked about the urea.
41:09 – 41:11
You mentioned phosphorus and fasting.
41:11 – 41:14
But what are some of the other efficiency
41:14 – 41:16
gains that you have implemented over the
41:16 – 41:19
years that seem to be paying off?
41:19 – 41:22
Yeah. Well, I think from a nutrition
41:22 – 41:23
perspective, historically, obviously,
41:23 – 41:26
there's been quite a bit of focus just
41:26 – 41:29
purely on NPK. And so, yeah, looking at
41:29 – 41:31
different nutrient synergies and where we
41:31 – 41:33
can implement. Yeah, benefits there.
41:33 – 41:36
So combining things like in our soil based
41:36 – 41:38
applications, always include humic with
41:38 – 41:40
the nutrients, foliar applications, always
41:40 – 41:42
including fulvic, adding, for example,
41:42 – 41:45
with our urea passes, we generally try to
41:45 – 41:47
add carbon source as well.
41:47 – 41:50
So whether that's in a perfect world, if
41:50 – 41:52
we're not going with the herbicide, then
41:52 – 41:56
we'll add humic and molasses so that we've
41:56 – 41:58
got a labile carbon source and
41:58 – 42:00
recalcitrant So some of those different
42:00 – 42:02
factors. Carbon source going with it.
42:02 – 42:05
So, some of those different factors that I
42:05 – 42:09
think they play a big role in having some
42:09 – 42:10
synergies of different nutrient
42:10 – 42:12
interactions, different things that
42:12 – 42:14
increase uptake, different modes of action
42:14 – 42:16
that we can work in synergy.
42:18 – 42:21
And there's a couple of other things
42:21 – 42:25
that we have stumbled across as a
42:25 – 42:28
result of pulling back a lot of
42:28 – 42:30
our upfront nitrogen.
42:30 – 42:32
Up here, the conventional agronomic
42:32 – 42:36
understanding is we put everything down up
42:36 – 42:39
front. And what we have found by
42:39 – 42:43
reducing all that and pulling the majority
42:43 – 42:46
of that nitrogen out is that we
42:46 – 42:50
have a less difficult time elevating our
42:50 – 42:53
BRICS levels. We have less problem with
42:53 – 42:57
lodging. We have, for some reason, no
42:57 – 42:59
need anymore for fungicide applications.
42:59 – 43:01
Funny how that works.
43:01 – 43:04
What's that? Funny how that works.
43:04 – 43:07
So we start looking at this.
43:07 – 43:11
Okay, well, if we don't have to
43:11 – 43:14
use a plant growth regulator, there's 20
43:14 – 43:18
an acre. If we don't have to use
43:18 – 43:21
an insecticide, there's another 6 to 15.
43:21 – 43:24
And then your fungicide, if we don't have
43:24 – 43:27
to use that, if it's one or two
43:27 – 43:30
applications, there's another 20 or 40 an
43:30 – 43:33
acre right there. So up here, we're
43:33 – 43:34
looking at an additional.
43:34 – 43:38
70 to 100 per acre to manage the problems
43:38 – 43:41
that come with the thinking that we have
43:41 – 43:44
been taught as being 100 accurate.
43:44 – 43:46
They come with the dose of upfront
43:46 – 43:49
nitrogen. Yeah, and so on that upfront
43:49 – 43:52
nitrogen, so I studied in the Netherlands
43:52 – 43:55
and there was one research topic that we
43:55 – 43:58
were looking at, particularly on nitrogen
43:58 – 44:00
management, that was new to me.
44:00 – 44:03
So this concept of futile cycling, and we
44:03 – 44:06
were looking at what was the word before
44:06 – 44:08
cycling? Fueled cycling?
44:08 – 44:09
Yeah, futile cycling.
44:09 – 44:12
Yeah. And so the the study that we were
44:12 – 44:15
looking at, I can't remember exactly how
44:15 – 44:18
many kilos per hectare of nitrogen they
44:18 – 44:21
were applying, but it was somewhere in the
44:21 – 44:24
ballpark of like 300, 350 kilos per
44:24 – 44:27
hectare, and they were showing that up to
44:27 – 44:30
76 of the plant's photosynthetic Energy
44:30 – 44:33
was being used to remove nitrogen from the
44:33 – 44:36
plant sap, basically, in the root system.
44:36 – 44:39
And so, again, on that efficiency
44:39 – 44:42
conversation, by not up front loading so
44:42 – 44:45
much nitrogen, more of the energy can be
44:45 – 44:48
used for the processes that we're looking
44:48 – 44:50
for productivity. That's a big deal.
44:50 – 44:53
And that's one that I've talked about.
44:53 – 44:56
I was not aware of, I'm assuming that
44:56 – 44:59
research has been published, but I've seen
44:59 – 45:02
some older research that also spoke about
45:02 – 45:04
the tremendous carbon requirement and
45:04 – 45:06
photosynthetic requirement just to
45:06 – 45:07
metabolize nitrogen, particularly nitrate.
45:07 – 45:11
When I think about Growing in your part of
45:11 – 45:14
the world, you have a relatively
45:14 – 45:16
compressed growing season to further south
45:16 – 45:19
and you have more rapid plant development,
45:19 – 45:21
more rapid convergence of growth stages.
45:22 – 45:24
So what challenges have you encountered
45:24 – 45:26
with the logistics of putting on multiple
45:26 – 45:27
applications per season?
45:27 – 45:29
How have you managed that?
45:29 – 45:32
The weather. The wild card is well this
45:32 – 45:34
here's a good example up here.
45:34 – 45:36
Like Alberta has been inundated with
45:36 – 45:38
excess moisture that we don't normally
45:38 – 45:41
see. And so, if you're planning, well, at
45:41 – 45:45
this stage, we're going to be going out to
45:45 – 45:47
put a nutrient application on to apply
45:47 – 45:50
some nutrition. If we can't get out in the
45:50 – 45:52
field, that can be a challenge.
45:52 – 45:56
And so, I mean, the system is not perfect,
45:56 – 45:58
it's going to have its challenges.
45:58 – 46:01
That's one of the biggest ones that I can
46:01 – 46:03
think of. Andrew, Stephen, can you guys
46:03 – 46:06
think of anything else just mostly that
46:06 – 46:09
the dealings with the weather and I mean,
46:09 – 46:12
the logistics. I mean, we we farm about a
46:12 – 46:15
thousand acres. So in the grand scheme of
46:15 – 46:17
things, it's not a super large farm.
46:17 – 46:20
But even still, with my dad, myself and
46:20 – 46:23
our hired man, we often are just barely
46:23 – 46:24
catching the window.
46:24 – 46:27
And so this is where we're trying to find
46:27 – 46:30
that balance of what are we putting up
46:30 – 46:33
front so we've got A little bit of a
46:33 – 46:36
reserve there versus trying to time these
46:36 – 46:38
things up in the ideal situations.
46:38 – 46:41
Because yes, in a perfect world, it'd be
46:41 – 46:44
great to get out there exactly when the
46:44 – 46:47
plant needs it, but we don't always do
46:47 – 46:51
that. So, you know, there's still got to
46:51 – 46:54
be some of that nutrition, you know, that
46:54 – 46:57
nitrogen up front, but again, we don't
46:57 – 46:59
necessarily need all of it up front.
46:59 – 47:02
Andrew, I know you to this previously, but
47:02 – 47:05
let's expand the conversation to the some
47:05 – 47:09
of the other crops as well as on the
47:09 – 47:10
small grain crops.
47:10 – 47:12
What are your common nitrogen Application
47:12 – 47:16
rates on those other crops other than just
47:16 – 47:18
corn? Typically around, we aim for around
47:18 – 47:21
that 50 actual pounds in the season,
47:21 – 47:24
combined from soil applied, whether that
47:24 – 47:27
be in furrow or through the pivot versus,
47:27 – 47:29
well, in addition to the foliar
47:29 – 47:31
applications, but we'll target roughly
47:31 – 47:34
around that 50 actual pounds of nitrogen.
47:34 – 47:37
And I missed asking my question clearly,
47:37 – 47:40
but how much of that total of 50 units
47:40 – 47:43
is on the soil specifically at planting?
47:44 – 47:46
About 12 actual pounds.
47:46 – 47:50
So not a lot. And again, we'll try
47:50 – 47:53
to time things up with the pivot to
47:53 – 47:57
get things applied to the soil through the
47:57 – 47:59
pivot early on as well.
47:59 – 48:03
But yeah, I guess the bulk load of
48:03 – 48:06
our nitrogen applications are spoonfed on-
48:06 – 48:09
Obviously, I think it's important to
48:09 – 48:12
mention as well that because we're a seed
48:12 – 48:15
farm, typically we're not looking for a
48:15 – 48:19
ton of straw production or tonnage in that
48:19 – 48:22
regard. Our focus has transitioned over
48:22 – 48:25
the last few years towards more phosphorus
48:25 – 48:27
and potassium rather than nitrogen.
48:27 – 48:31
Obviously, we want to focus on early but
48:31 – 48:34
for seed quality, seed yield, we're
48:34 – 48:37
getting much better ROI from focusing on
48:37 – 48:40
obviously the full spectrum of nutrients,
48:40 – 48:43
but transitioning quite a bit farther away
48:43 – 48:46
from nitrogen being the main focus.
48:46 – 48:49
Yeah. Yeah, that's been one of the
48:49 – 48:52
conversations that I've been wanting to
48:52 – 48:54
get to seed quality outcomes.
48:54 – 48:58
But before we bounce to that, one of the
48:58 – 49:01
things that I haven't heard you mention
49:01 – 49:03
and that I'm intrigued by is the
49:03 – 49:05
possibility. Are you using any
49:05 – 49:08
biologicals? Are you using any microbial
49:08 – 49:10
inoculants? And I ask this question
49:10 – 49:12
because the environment that you're
49:12 – 49:14
describing, the management context, seems
49:14 – 49:16
like an almost ideal environment for
49:16 – 49:19
microbial inoculants to be able to express
49:19 – 49:20
themselves really well.
49:20 – 49:23
Because what happens in so many farming
49:23 – 49:26
operations, and this is, I'm puzzled by
49:26 – 49:29
the lack of awareness that seems to be out
49:29 – 49:33
there, but growers will apply a lot large
49:33 – 49:35
units or large volumes of, let's say,
49:35 – 49:38
nitrogen or potassium or phosphorus or
49:38 – 49:41
some combination of all of the above in a
49:41 – 49:44
two by two in a furrow or broadcast.
49:45 – 49:48
And then put on a microbial inoculant and
49:48 – 49:51
not be able to figure out why they don't
49:51 – 49:52
get significant results.
49:52 – 49:54
And it's because they've overloaded the
49:54 – 49:56
system with electrolytes and they've
49:56 – 49:58
created the signal where the plant doesn't
49:58 – 50:01
need the support of the biology, and so of
50:01 – 50:03
course the biology doesn't express itself.
50:03 – 50:07
And it seems to me that you have with the
50:07 – 50:08
management approach that you've developed,
50:08 – 50:11
you actually have the context for
50:11 – 50:12
microbinoculants to express themselves
50:12 – 50:14
really well and to actually show
50:14 – 50:15
substantial responses.
50:15 – 50:17
Have you experimented with those at all?
50:17 – 50:19
What are you doing today?
50:19 – 50:20
Andrew, go ahead. Yes.
50:20 – 50:23
Yeah, we treat every seed that goes on our
50:23 – 50:25
farm with the compost tea.
50:25 – 50:28
And yeah, we've been using it for the last
50:28 – 50:31
seven years. Now. We no longer use the
50:31 – 50:33
fungicide, insecticide, seed treatment on
50:33 – 50:36
any of our crops. I mean, other than, you
50:36 – 50:38
know, the corn that comes treated or the
50:38 – 50:40
canola that comes treated.
50:40 – 50:42
You're a seed production farm, that's
50:42 – 50:45
heresy. I know, we've been given the song
50:45 – 50:47
and dance. Here's the little plate of
50:47 – 50:49
disease. Oh, you're gonna make sure you
50:49 – 50:51
get the best protection.
50:51 – 50:54
Oh, you can't afford to have your crop
50:54 – 50:57
die. You better put this chemical on to
50:57 – 51:00
protect it. Well, we haven't seen that in
51:00 – 51:03
the fields because our soil is not a
51:03 – 51:05
sterile Petri dish.
51:05 – 51:07
It is a more hydric environment.
51:07 – 51:11
Exactly. So for us, we haven't seen a drop
51:11 – 51:13
off in any of that.
51:13 – 51:15
It's been great for us.
51:15 – 51:18
We, again, use it as a seed treatment and
51:18 – 51:22
then on the corn, on the canola where it's
51:22 – 51:25
already treated, we'll just apply it in
51:25 – 51:27
furrow when we're seeding.
51:27 – 51:30
And then come fall time, like we don't
51:30 – 51:34
bail off any of our straw with a corn
51:34 – 51:36
or the flax or the hemp.
51:36 – 51:39
We'll chop it up. And apply the
51:39 – 51:41
saprophytic fungal version of this compost
51:41 – 51:45
heat and work that all into the soil and
51:45 – 51:49
have that break it down and save a little
51:49 – 51:52
bit of nitrogen for us that way too.
51:52 – 51:55
And you mentioned you've been doing this
51:55 – 51:57
for the last seven years.
51:58 – 52:00
What types of, you've been playing around
52:00 – 52:03
with melted urea for quite a bit longer
52:03 – 52:06
than that. What type of response did you
52:06 – 52:08
observe from the biologicals once you
52:08 – 52:09
started using them?
52:09 – 52:11
Well, you you definitely notice the
52:11 – 52:14
earthworms. That's seems to be you know
52:14 – 52:17
the the most obvious one is the earthworms
52:17 – 52:18
and how they come back.
52:18 – 52:21
And you know, in a shovelful, you don't
52:21 – 52:24
have to you know start digging multiple
52:24 – 52:26
shovelfuls to find an earthworm.
52:26 – 52:29
You just dig in the soil a little bit and
52:29 – 52:31
oh. There's an earthworm.
52:31 – 52:32
Oh, there's another one.
52:32 – 52:34
Oh, look at the worm castings here.
52:35 – 52:39
You know the smell of the soil, the,
52:39 – 52:42
again, the, not saying we never have
52:42 – 52:45
disease, but the infrequency of it, I
52:45 – 52:49
guess, or how little disease there is, or
52:49 – 52:53
if there is any kind of disease, how
52:53 – 52:56
it's isolated to a very small area and
52:56 – 52:59
doesn't proliferate through the fields or
52:59 – 53:03
what have you. So, yeah, and just again
53:03 – 53:06
overall Plant health and what we're seeing
53:06 – 53:09
in the SAP analysis from nutrient uptake
53:09 – 53:13
and what little we're applying and the
53:13 – 53:14
response we're getting.
53:14 – 53:17
I mean, that's not solely from the
53:17 – 53:18
nutrients applied.
53:18 – 53:21
There's the biology is helping facilitate
53:21 – 53:22
those processes too.
53:22 – 53:26
And yeah, I mean, that's my two bits about
53:26 – 53:29
it, but. And we'll go return back to the
53:29 – 53:31
seed dealer component of it.
53:31 – 53:35
Up here in Canada, we're Regulated as far
53:35 – 53:36
as seed treatments go.
53:36 – 53:39
And you have to comply with auditing and
53:39 – 53:42
inspection and all that kind of thing.
53:42 – 53:45
If you do have a spill, or you get
53:45 – 53:49
some on you, it can be depending on what
53:49 – 53:52
you're using can be quite an involving
53:52 – 53:54
process. And basically you shut it down
53:54 – 53:57
and you got to get everything cleaned up
53:57 – 54:00
right away and clean it off yourself.
54:00 – 54:03
This stuff, the beautiful part of what it
54:03 – 54:06
is. You get some splashed on you, it's
54:06 – 54:07
like, yeah, whatever.
54:07 – 54:10
Wipe it off. It's like crawl water.
54:10 – 54:12
Let's keep going here.
54:12 – 54:14
And it's not a big deal.
54:14 – 54:16
The toxicity level is amazingly low.
54:16 – 54:19
Yeah, it's, wonderful to work with.
54:19 – 54:21
And we started offering it, uh, seven
54:21 – 54:24
years ago as an option with our
54:24 – 54:26
conventional pink and blue seed
54:26 – 54:28
treatments. And we showed each client,
54:28 – 54:29
here's your option.
54:29 – 54:32
You can do this. You can do that.
54:32 – 54:35
Some of them chose to do the biological
54:35 – 54:37
instead. The following year, when they
54:37 – 54:40
were ordering their seed Nobody could
54:40 – 54:42
remember what it was called, but they
54:42 – 54:45
just, whatever that stuff was you put on
54:45 – 54:47
my seed. I want that again.
54:47 – 54:50
I've never seen my crop come out of the
54:50 – 54:53
ground like that. And so after three
54:53 – 54:55
years, we completely decommissioned our
54:55 – 54:56
synthetic seed treatment line.
54:56 – 55:00
And so now we offer biology or we offer
55:00 – 55:02
biology. So we do have choices.
55:02 – 55:04
Wow. That's a positive anecdote because
55:04 – 55:05
that's a good chance.
55:05 – 55:08
That's a positive anecdote because that
55:08 – 55:10
only would have happened with results.
55:10 – 55:12
Yes, and that's the biggest results is
55:12 – 55:15
when the customer replies back saying, I
55:15 – 55:17
don't know what that was.
55:17 – 55:19
I couldn't remember the name of it.
55:19 – 55:22
Whatever you put on there last year, make
55:22 – 55:25
sure you put that on there again.
55:25 – 55:29
So in addition to that, the boys have
55:29 – 55:32
come up with a number of years back
55:32 – 55:35
after we started the biology, we started
55:35 – 55:38
introducing on the seed nutrition in
55:38 – 55:40
conjunction with the Biology.
55:40 – 55:42
Now, hang on a second here.
55:42 – 55:45
Who's borrowing ideas from who here?
55:45 – 55:49
I thought I came up with that idea.
55:49 – 55:50
Oh, maybe you did.
55:50 – 55:54
Okay. No idea. Much more than I am.
55:54 – 55:55
We're sharing ideas.
55:55 – 55:57
It sharpens iron. Yeah.
55:57 – 56:00
Yeah. So let's chat about that a bit
56:00 – 56:04
as well. What results have you been
56:04 – 56:07
observing? First of all, what are you
56:07 – 56:10
doing with the mineral seed treatments and
56:10 – 56:11
what of human observing.
56:11 – 56:13
Better root development.
56:13 – 56:15
Better root development, healthier starts.
56:15 – 56:18
Some deficiencies are basically gone after
56:18 – 56:19
using it early on.
56:19 – 56:23
Yeah, just a better start, better yields.
56:23 – 56:24
Yeah, I don't know.
56:24 – 56:26
What else can you say?
56:26 – 56:29
Up here we have cold environments.
56:29 – 56:33
For seeding. A lot of times guys will
56:33 – 56:36
go in and start seeding when there's still
56:36 – 56:40
snow on the ground in the ditches and
56:40 – 56:42
everything else. And Application of zinc,
56:42 – 56:45
for example, offers that enhanced level of
56:45 – 56:49
frost protection. I don't have the numbers
56:49 – 56:52
off the top of my head, but one
56:52 – 56:56
of the research papers I read said that
56:56 – 56:59
if the plant, the embryo, when it's
56:59 – 57:02
sprouting, if it has additional zinc in
57:02 – 57:05
it, it offers better resilience in cold
57:05 – 57:08
environment. So that comes back to our
57:08 – 57:10
concept of Nutrition loading and enhancing
57:10 – 57:12
the nutrition of our seed.
57:12 – 57:16
That's some of the things that go into our
57:16 – 57:18
foliar applications for mom.
57:18 – 57:21
Because like I said, I go back to my
57:21 – 57:25
EMS experience. Once a month, mom goes in
57:25 – 57:28
to the doctor, get her blood work done to
57:28 – 57:32
find out what she might be lacking so that
57:32 – 57:34
the baby doesn't lack anything.
57:34 – 57:37
And so If the doctor finds that she's
57:37 – 57:39
inadequately Supplied with a certain
57:39 – 57:41
nutrient, they'll supplement that so that
57:41 – 57:43
the baby isn't starved.
57:43 – 57:45
We adopt that same concept.
57:45 – 57:48
We've got millions of mothers out in our
57:48 – 57:51
fields and that is, you know, tissue
57:51 – 57:54
testing, sap analysis, that kind of thing
57:54 – 57:58
to find out what is required and then give
57:58 – 58:01
that so that our clients, when they get
58:01 – 58:04
seed from us, hopefully have a better
58:04 – 58:06
product than what they would normally get.
58:07 – 58:10
Now that's the next piece I've been
58:10 – 58:13
wanting to Ask you about is the quality of
58:13 – 58:15
outcomes. But if I may, just a quick
58:15 – 58:17
comment on our experience with mineral
58:17 – 58:20
seed treatments. You have a number of
58:20 – 58:22
crops. Well, there's two common scenarios.
58:22 – 58:24
One is where a seedling emerges and it's
58:24 – 58:27
not particularly dark green; it has a pale
58:27 – 58:28
yellow color, and it doesn't.
58:28 – 58:30
Its photosynthesis is suboptimal for the
58:30 – 58:34
first any any can be a period of a few
58:34 – 58:37
days. To as much as a couple weeks, and
58:37 – 58:39
that's because of a nutritional imbalance.
58:39 – 58:41
The mother, as you just pointed out.
58:41 – 58:44
And then that's not present in the seed.
58:44 – 58:46
It takes some time to correct that.
58:46 – 58:48
And I wanted to see seedlings emerge and
58:48 – 58:50
turn dark green immediately.
58:50 – 58:52
And the seed treatments have been a very
58:52 – 58:54
effective way of doing that.
58:54 – 58:56
And then the other observation that we've
58:56 – 58:59
had is when you have some crops are very
58:59 – 59:01
susceptible to insects very early, like
59:01 – 59:03
flea beetles on canola, for example.
59:03 – 59:07
If you want to try To prevent that with a
59:07 – 59:08
nutrition management based approach, which
59:08 – 59:11
can be done very successfully, you have to
59:11 – 59:13
have the nutrition in the seed.
59:13 – 59:15
So that either needs to come from the
59:15 – 59:18
mother, from the parent generation, or it
59:18 – 59:20
needs to come as a seed treatment that
59:20 – 59:23
actually gets absorbed into the seed or
59:23 – 59:25
into the seedling right as it emerges.
59:25 – 59:28
Because it doesn't make sense to go out
59:28 – 59:32
there and spray an entire acre with a
59:32 – 59:35
foliar application at that very early
59:35 – 59:36
stage is logistically difficult.
59:36 – 59:39
There's all kinds of difficulties with
59:39 – 59:43
that. But if you get it into the
59:43 – 59:45
seed, you get good nutritional balance
59:45 – 59:48
into that seed from the beginning, then
59:48 – 59:51
you can have those seedlings be resistant
59:51 – 59:54
to insect pressure right from the point
59:54 – 59:58
they emerge, and that's a lot of fun.
59:58 – 1:00:02
The difficulty that we have here is the
1:00:02 – 1:00:04
seed distribution and propagation in
1:00:04 – 1:00:07
Western Canada for canola, for example, is
1:00:07 – 1:00:09
very, very tightly regulated, and the.
1:00:09 – 1:00:13
Cards are kept very close to the chest
1:00:13 – 1:00:15
on the seed companies.
1:00:15 – 1:00:18
They're focus is more on the seed
1:00:18 – 1:00:20
treatment side for fungicide, insecticide,
1:00:20 – 1:00:23
lactivity, more so than nutrition, but I
1:00:23 – 1:00:26
think it's slowly starting to come around.
1:00:26 – 1:00:29
But just like anything, it's time for
1:00:29 – 1:00:33
adoption and there has to be a fundamental
1:00:33 – 1:00:36
profitability factor put in there for the
1:00:36 – 1:00:39
big companies to even consider it.
1:00:39 – 1:00:40
But you're absolutely right.
1:00:40 – 1:00:44
If we can provide that nutritional load to
1:00:44 – 1:00:47
the plant or the seedling early on it
1:00:47 – 1:00:51
sets it miles ahead of crops that don't
1:00:51 – 1:00:52
have that opportunity.
1:00:52 – 1:00:56
Yeah. So one of the frustrations that I
1:00:56 – 1:00:59
have had historically, this is I think
1:00:59 – 1:01:02
mostly true or perhaps most particularly
1:01:02 – 1:01:05
true of corn seed production here in North
1:01:05 – 1:01:08
America, is there has been just abysmal
1:01:08 – 1:01:10
consideration for quality.
1:01:10 – 1:01:12
In fact, you could almost say, well, let
1:01:12 – 1:01:14
me just say it differently.
1:01:14 – 1:01:16
Quality is measured in terms of
1:01:16 – 1:01:19
germination rate and not in terms of other
1:01:19 – 1:01:22
factors such as emergence and vigor and so
1:01:22 – 1:01:25
forth. That might be a better way of
1:01:25 – 1:01:27
articulating it. And so as a result, we
1:01:27 – 1:01:29
have lightweight seed, we have lowdensity
1:01:29 – 1:01:32
seed, we have poor nutrition seed, we have
1:01:32 – 1:01:35
a long list of complaints that could be
1:01:35 – 1:01:37
registered about seed production practices
1:01:37 – 1:01:40
in seed corn, and that there are other
1:01:40 – 1:01:42
crops have challenges to varying degrees
1:01:42 – 1:01:44
some much less so, but I've always been
1:01:44 – 1:01:47
very intrigued and believe that seed
1:01:47 – 1:01:48
quality is foundational, of foundational
1:01:48 – 1:01:51
importance. And so I really want to hear
1:01:51 – 1:01:54
from you as you've been going down this
1:01:54 – 1:01:56
pathway using biologicals and addressing
1:01:56 – 1:01:58
trace mineral nutrition, what has happened
1:01:58 – 1:02:01
with seed quality for you in terms of
1:02:01 – 1:02:03
germination rates, in terms of vigor, in
1:02:03 – 1:02:05
terms of all the parameters that you're
1:02:05 – 1:02:06
measuring.
1:02:08 – 1:02:11
So I guess we go an anecdote that we
1:02:11 – 1:02:15
could talk about. It was about five years
1:02:15 – 1:02:18
ago. A friend of ours he wanted a sample
1:02:18 – 1:02:22
of our hard red spring wheat, and just I
1:02:22 – 1:02:24
just want a one kg sample.
1:02:24 – 1:02:25
Okay, sure, whatever.
1:02:25 – 1:02:28
Bin's over there. Go grab it.
1:02:28 – 1:02:30
Didn't even think about it.
1:02:30 – 1:02:31
Whatever. He just.
1:02:31 – 1:02:35
Does his thing. Talk to him again in a
1:02:35 – 1:02:36
month, and he said.
1:02:36 – 1:02:40
Were you curious as to why I wanted that
1:02:40 – 1:02:43
sample?" I wasn't, but now I am.
1:02:43 – 1:02:46
What'd you take that sample for?" I said,
1:02:46 – 1:02:50
Well, I went to four or five other seed
1:02:50 – 1:02:53
growers and got that exact same variety of
1:02:53 – 1:02:55
that hard red spring wheat.
1:02:56 – 1:02:59
And I got that tested for germination.
1:02:59 – 1:03:01
And everybody's germination was anywhere
1:03:01 – 1:03:04
from It was, I think, '98.
1:03:04 – 1:03:07
And there was one guy that even had
1:03:07 – 1:03:11
100 Ours was 98 and it's like, okay,
1:03:11 – 1:03:15
well, what are you trying to tell us
1:03:15 – 1:03:18
here? He says, that's not the interesting
1:03:18 – 1:03:21
part. Is the cold stress vigor test.
1:03:21 – 1:03:24
He said, we got that done on all
1:03:24 – 1:03:27
of them. He said, everybody's dropped
1:03:27 – 1:03:31
significantly. There was as low as 47 on
1:03:31 – 1:03:34
the vigor and the next high, or The
1:03:34 – 1:03:36
highest one was 84 vigor.
1:03:36 – 1:03:39
He said, You know what?
1:03:39 – 1:03:41
Know what yours dropped to?
1:03:41 – 1:03:45
He said it went from 98 to 96
1:03:45 – 1:03:48
on the vigor. We said that right there,
1:03:48 – 1:03:51
that's the result of your nutrient
1:03:51 – 1:03:52
densified program.
1:03:52 – 1:03:55
So, yeah, that was, we didn't ask him
1:03:55 – 1:03:58
to do that or whatever.
1:03:58 – 1:04:01
He just, he was more so curious and
1:04:01 – 1:04:04
wanted to see what's there to this.
1:04:04 – 1:04:08
Well, the piece that as we are starting
1:04:08 – 1:04:11
to understand the microbiome better, I'm
1:04:11 – 1:04:14
coming to think of seeds as microbial
1:04:14 – 1:04:16
inoculants. Every seed vectors a broad
1:04:16 – 1:04:19
group of different microbes along with it.
1:04:19 – 1:04:23
And so when you have the parent generation
1:04:23 – 1:04:26
grown on soil that has been microbially
1:04:26 – 1:04:29
inoculated and has been managed to enhance
1:04:29 – 1:04:32
biology and to support biology, you're
1:04:32 – 1:04:35
going to have a much richer microbiome
1:04:35 – 1:04:36
with that seed.
1:04:37 – 1:04:41
And that is going to express itself in
1:04:41 – 1:04:41
greater resilience.
1:04:41 – 1:04:45
I mean, the reality is, when you think
1:04:45 – 1:04:48
about marketing your seed, it's not just
1:04:48 – 1:04:51
the microbes that you're adding to the
1:04:51 – 1:04:55
outside of the seed, it's the fact that
1:04:55 – 1:04:58
on the inside, your seed has substantially
1:04:58 – 1:05:01
higher microbial content than seed that is
1:05:01 – 1:05:03
grown in a different manner.
1:05:03 – 1:05:06
So, in the Dr. White's rhizophagy
1:05:06 – 1:05:09
conversation, are we essentially like You
1:05:09 – 1:05:11
say, inoculating with microbes from our
1:05:11 – 1:05:15
soil into the seed and then helping to
1:05:15 – 1:05:17
inoculate, I guess, other people's soils?
1:05:17 – 1:05:21
You're colonizing all your grower soils as
1:05:21 – 1:05:21
well. Interesting.
1:05:21 – 1:05:25
Okay. Yeah, it's a fascinating world we
1:05:25 – 1:05:28
live in. It's all very connected once you
1:05:28 – 1:05:32
dig into it. So, thank you for that
1:05:32 – 1:05:35
anecdote on the cold vicar the cold stress
1:05:35 – 1:05:38
challenge what what other other have you
1:05:38 – 1:05:41
noticed changes in plant phenological
1:05:41 – 1:05:44
expression or seed expression in terms of
1:05:44 – 1:05:47
seed size, shape, plant size, shape, and
1:05:47 – 1:05:48
so forth?
1:05:51 – 1:05:54
Well, I mean, we also add some cytokinins
1:05:54 – 1:05:58
later in the growth cycle to get a larger
1:05:58 – 1:06:00
seed, but that's sometimes the frustration
1:06:00 – 1:06:03
of some of our seed clients.
1:06:03 – 1:06:06
They say, Well, your seed is so big and
1:06:06 – 1:06:10
heavy that I have to buy more of it.
1:06:10 – 1:06:12
And I don't like that.
1:06:12 – 1:06:15
But that's the expression of a fundamental
1:06:15 – 1:06:17
misunderstanding of what quality seed
1:06:17 – 1:06:19
should actually be all about.
1:06:19 – 1:06:23
Exactly. And we try to educate the growers
1:06:23 – 1:06:26
on it. But they see bushels and they say,
1:06:26 – 1:06:30
Well, I can fit 400 bushels in there and
1:06:30 – 1:06:34
I know what it looks like in the back
1:06:34 – 1:06:37
of my tandem. You put 400 bushels in, and
1:06:37 – 1:06:40
it's not that much volume.
1:06:40 – 1:06:43
Well, we have to do it by weight.
1:06:43 – 1:06:47
And a 70 pound bushel wheat is gonna be
1:06:47 – 1:06:49
different volume than a 60 pound bushel
1:06:49 – 1:06:52
wheat. Yeah. Yeah, so generally speaking
1:06:52 – 1:06:55
on everything that we grow, we're getting
1:06:55 – 1:06:58
heavier bushel weights across all of the
1:06:58 – 1:06:59
crops that we have.
1:06:59 – 1:07:02
And so, like Andrew and Dad have been
1:07:02 – 1:07:04
mentioning, we have to sell our seed by
1:07:04 – 1:07:06
the pound rather than bushel now because
1:07:06 – 1:07:08
people think that we're short changing
1:07:08 – 1:07:10
them if we sell it by the bushel because
1:07:10 – 1:07:11
everything's heavier.
1:07:11 – 1:07:14
But yeah, we sell it by the pound now uh,
1:07:14 – 1:07:16
but yeah, we sell it by the pound now in
1:07:16 – 1:07:18
order to help circumvent that.
1:07:18 – 1:07:20
But and then where exactly this is coming
1:07:20 – 1:07:22
from in the program, it's a bit difficult
1:07:22 – 1:07:25
for us to say because we're doing you know
1:07:25 – 1:07:27
10 or 12 different things at the same time
1:07:27 – 1:07:29
with the microbial inoculum, yeah,
1:07:29 – 1:07:31
hormones, etc. So we're not too interested
1:07:31 – 1:07:33
or concerned of where exactly it's coming
1:07:33 – 1:07:35
from. Obviously, the end result is our
1:07:35 – 1:07:36
most important uh factor.
1:07:36 – 1:07:39
If we if we had the time and money and it
1:07:39 – 1:07:42
and uh resources to be able to dive deeper
1:07:42 – 1:07:44
into it, then obviously we would, but.
1:07:44 – 1:07:47
The results are our main concern some
1:07:47 – 1:07:50
stage, if we have sophisticated seed
1:07:50 – 1:07:52
buyers and sophisticated seed sellers, we
1:07:52 – 1:07:55
might start having a conversation about
1:07:55 – 1:07:59
selling seed by seed count as we do in
1:07:59 – 1:08:00
the vegetable space.
1:08:00 – 1:08:03
But yeah, they do that with corn already
1:08:03 – 1:08:05
80000 to a bag. Yep.
1:08:05 – 1:08:09
Yeah. So, on that same note, so the
1:08:09 – 1:08:12
vegetable seed company that I work for,
1:08:12 – 1:08:14
exactly what you mentioned, John,
1:08:14 – 1:08:16
everything sold on seed count.
1:08:16 – 1:08:18
But in certain vegetables, like carrots,
1:08:18 – 1:08:21
for example, Each seed company is throwing
1:08:21 – 1:08:25
away. A lot of seed that is good quality
1:08:25 – 1:08:28
but just generally too small because it
1:08:28 – 1:08:31
slips through the farmer's seed discs.
1:08:31 – 1:08:34
And so that's a big challenge that we have
1:08:34 – 1:08:36
as seed companies.
1:08:36 – 1:08:39
And that's one of the anecdotes or trials
1:08:39 – 1:08:42
that we have ongoing right now in the
1:08:42 – 1:08:44
ground conventional nutrition versus
1:08:44 – 1:08:46
multiple sap analysis and foliar
1:08:46 – 1:08:48
applications. And then we're harvesting
1:08:48 – 1:08:51
those two lots separately for onions,
1:08:51 – 1:08:53
carrots, and red beets.
1:08:53 – 1:08:55
And we'll be testing the seed quality,
1:08:55 – 1:08:58
germination, vigor, all sorts of quality
1:08:58 – 1:08:59
metrics with our lab.
1:08:59 – 1:09:02
And so this is something that we're trying
1:09:02 – 1:09:05
to improve at Bayo, but yeah, it's a
1:09:05 – 1:09:07
difficult conversation bringing in
1:09:07 – 1:09:08
nutrition and environmental effects into
1:09:08 – 1:09:11
kind of a geneticbased organization based
1:09:11 – 1:09:13
organization, you know, and so everything
1:09:13 – 1:09:16
is quite involved and focused on marker
1:09:16 – 1:09:19
technology and all the, you know, in depth
1:09:19 – 1:09:19
genetic components.
1:09:19 – 1:09:21
But the environmental side, because the
1:09:21 – 1:09:24
anecdote for me, I've been responsible for
1:09:24 – 1:09:26
the organic seed production around the
1:09:26 – 1:09:29
world, and we have the same genetics going
1:09:29 – 1:09:31
in conventional and organic.
1:09:31 – 1:09:33
And generally speaking, we see, you know,
1:09:33 – 1:09:37
anywhere between a 10 and 50 yield hit on
1:09:37 – 1:09:38
those same genetics.
1:09:38 – 1:09:41
And so it's a nice anecdote to show on
1:09:41 – 1:09:44
sort crops we can get very close.
1:09:44 – 1:09:47
In other crops, there's a huge disparity
1:09:47 – 1:09:48
between the conventional and organic.
1:09:48 – 1:09:51
And it's, again, not a genetic component,
1:09:51 – 1:09:54
but the environment in which we're placing
1:09:54 – 1:09:57
them in. Yeah. So, Stephen, you have the
1:09:57 – 1:09:58
benefit of a unique perspective.
1:09:58 – 1:10:01
I've been, I expressed some quite direct
1:10:01 – 1:10:04
criticism of corn seed production here in
1:10:04 – 1:10:06
North America. I have less familiarity and
1:10:06 – 1:10:09
less perspective with what vegetable seed
1:10:09 – 1:10:10
production looks like generally, although
1:10:10 – 1:10:13
we work with a number of vegetable seed
1:10:13 – 1:10:16
growers in agronomy and advice advisory
1:10:16 – 1:10:18
capacity. But can you offer some
1:10:18 – 1:10:21
perspective on the state of quality?
1:10:21 – 1:10:24
I was about to say the state of quality,
1:10:24 – 1:10:27
but what does vegetable seed production
1:10:27 – 1:10:30
look like relatively to perhaps corn or to
1:10:30 – 1:10:33
other crops? And how much room is there
1:10:33 – 1:10:36
for improvement? Yeah, it's a good
1:10:36 – 1:10:39
question. So I think that's also been one
1:10:39 – 1:10:42
of my big interests in working with Bayeux
1:10:42 – 1:10:46
is that, well, number one, the margins are
1:10:46 – 1:10:49
quite a bit higher in the vegetable space
1:10:49 – 1:10:51
compared to the commodity space.
1:10:51 – 1:10:54
So the room for improvement in the season
1:10:54 – 1:10:56
through sap analysis, through these
1:10:56 – 1:10:59
various amendments, there's more space and
1:10:59 – 1:11:01
room for that, not only financially, but
1:11:01 – 1:11:03
then also farm size.
1:11:03 – 1:11:06
So generally speaking You know, most guys
1:11:06 – 1:11:08
in commodity crops, they're massive farms
1:11:08 – 1:11:11
and it's difficult to get across every
1:11:11 – 1:11:15
acre, you know, once, maybe even twice if
1:11:15 – 1:11:17
possible. Whereas the vegetable space is
1:11:17 – 1:11:20
quite a bit more involved, smaller
1:11:20 – 1:11:22
hectares or smaller acres, generally
1:11:22 – 1:11:24
speaking, of course, there's massive farms
1:11:24 – 1:11:27
in the US and other places, but yeah,
1:11:27 – 1:11:30
there's generally more attention to detail
1:11:30 – 1:11:32
in some of those different spaces.
1:11:32 – 1:11:36
If we look at Nova crop control and
1:11:36 – 1:11:39
saponin Analysis, much of their space and
1:11:39 – 1:11:41
dedication arose in strawberries, bell
1:11:41 – 1:11:42
peppers, and tomatoes.
1:11:42 – 1:11:46
I think in large part, of course, because
1:11:46 – 1:11:49
those growers are looking to push the
1:11:49 – 1:11:52
envelope and they have the means to be
1:11:52 – 1:11:55
able to do that. I think there's
1:11:55 – 1:11:58
definitely more interest in space for
1:11:58 – 1:12:00
improving quality in the vegetables
1:12:00 – 1:12:02
compared to the commodity crops because
1:12:02 – 1:12:05
also the attention to Detail on quality
1:12:05 – 1:12:08
because the seeds are much higher value.
1:12:08 – 1:12:11
There's just more time and attention to
1:12:11 – 1:12:15
that. But yeah, just I would say generally
1:12:15 – 1:12:17
speaking, there's still much, much
1:12:17 – 1:12:20
opportunity and room to grow in that
1:12:20 – 1:12:21
space.
1:12:22 – 1:12:25
This has been such an enjoyable
1:12:25 – 1:12:28
conversation. What have we missed talking
1:12:28 – 1:12:30
about? Probably, that's a little entirely
1:12:30 – 1:12:33
different conversation with a group of
1:12:33 – 1:12:36
people other than ourselves, but the
1:12:36 – 1:12:38
philosophical Fundamentals of what we're
1:12:38 – 1:12:40
talking about here with nutrient
1:12:40 – 1:12:43
densification in our foods, I don't really
1:12:43 – 1:12:46
see anything changing short term as long
1:12:46 – 1:12:50
as the producer is paid on producing bulk
1:12:50 – 1:12:54
X or Y. Until there's a component that
1:12:54 – 1:12:56
recognizes the nutrition quality content.
1:12:56 – 1:12:59
Of the grain or the corn or the
1:12:59 – 1:13:02
peas or whatever the soybeans are.
1:13:02 – 1:13:04
The farmer is raising.
1:13:04 – 1:13:07
And unless he's remunerated for them,
1:13:07 – 1:13:10
we're not going to be seeing much
1:13:10 – 1:13:12
deviation from this mainstream agronomic
1:13:12 – 1:13:15
advice that we tend to receive.
1:13:15 – 1:13:16
I completely agree.
1:13:16 – 1:13:19
You achieve what you incentivize and we've
1:13:19 – 1:13:22
incentivized production of volume with no
1:13:22 – 1:13:25
consideration for quality seem to be any
1:13:25 – 1:13:28
collective macro effort to shape Shift
1:13:28 – 1:13:29
that anytime soon.
1:13:29 – 1:13:32
It doesn't seem to be a priority from
1:13:32 – 1:13:36
a public health perspective or from any
1:13:36 – 1:13:36
other perspective.
1:13:36 – 1:13:40
And so it's nice to think about, but
1:13:40 – 1:13:44
I think if this is something that we
1:13:44 – 1:13:47
want to prioritize for ourselves, our own
1:13:47 – 1:13:49
families, our own communities, then we
1:13:49 – 1:13:51
have to take charge.
1:13:51 – 1:13:53
We have to own it.
1:13:54 – 1:13:57
We have to make it happen on a local
1:13:57 – 1:14:01
level because I don't see it happening on
1:14:01 – 1:14:03
a macro level anytime soon.
1:14:03 – 1:14:05
I don't see enough collective consumer
1:14:05 – 1:14:09
demand there has been an attempt in the
1:14:09 – 1:14:12
past here. We've had groups and even a
1:14:12 – 1:14:15
couple of individuals that really believe
1:14:15 – 1:14:17
in the nutrient densification concept,
1:14:17 – 1:14:19
talking to the different green elevators,
1:14:19 – 1:14:23
and they don't even want to give you the
1:14:23 – 1:14:26
time of day about it, because it requires
1:14:26 – 1:14:28
segregation, it requires extra
1:14:28 – 1:14:30
inspections, extra testing, extra
1:14:30 – 1:14:33
handling, and they make their money on
1:14:33 – 1:14:36
volume. It's a very difficult, but like we
1:14:36 – 1:14:40
are doing. And so many of your growers and
1:14:40 – 1:14:43
your clients are doing, we're not able to
1:14:43 – 1:14:47
change the world, but we're able to affect
1:14:47 – 1:14:50
the space that we have the sphere of
1:14:50 – 1:14:53
influence in. And it starts there.
1:14:53 – 1:14:56
And if we can start with our own thinking
1:14:56 – 1:14:59
to allow ourselves to think of other
1:14:59 – 1:15:02
concepts, what we've been told all these
1:15:02 – 1:15:05
years, perhaps there's a chance that
1:15:05 – 1:15:07
collectively the little groups here.
1:15:07 – 1:15:10
And groups there will rise up and it
1:15:10 – 1:15:14
will get better. As I've said for the
1:15:14 – 1:15:17
last number of years, the current
1:15:17 – 1:15:20
agronomic model that we have for North
1:15:20 – 1:15:22
America is not sustainable long term.
1:15:22 – 1:15:26
The pattern that I see emerging from a
1:15:26 – 1:15:29
public health perspective, and I kind of,
1:15:29 – 1:15:33
there's a part of me that doesn't really
1:15:33 – 1:15:36
like the phrase of public health because
1:15:36 – 1:15:37
it's very impersonal.
1:15:37 – 1:15:41
But when you look at The patterns across
1:15:41 – 1:15:44
populations, it seems to me that we are
1:15:44 – 1:15:47
going to see a continued divergence where
1:15:47 – 1:15:51
there will be a growing group of people
1:15:51 – 1:15:53
who thrive and generally live healthy
1:15:53 – 1:15:57
lives to the end of their life.
1:15:57 – 1:16:00
And there is a large group of people
1:16:00 – 1:16:03
who the majority are on this road
1:16:03 – 1:16:07
currently who will live too short and die
1:16:07 – 1:16:10
too long. They have very poor quality end
1:16:10 – 1:16:14
of life. And the last decade or two,
1:16:14 – 1:16:17
where their body just starts breaking
1:16:17 – 1:16:20
apart, breaking down because of all the
1:16:20 – 1:16:22
environmental toxins and everything that
1:16:22 – 1:16:24
they've been exposed to.
1:16:24 – 1:16:27
And and food production is a significant
1:16:27 – 1:16:28
contributor to that.
1:16:28 – 1:16:30
It's not the only one.
1:16:30 – 1:16:32
There's food processing, there's
1:16:32 – 1:16:33
environmental toxins there's
1:16:33 – 1:16:34
electromagnetic radiation.
1:16:34 – 1:16:38
I mean, there's a number of things that,
1:16:38 – 1:16:41
a number of factors that contribute to
1:16:41 – 1:16:43
that. But food and agriculture is
1:16:43 – 1:16:46
significant. And so when you think about
1:16:46 – 1:16:49
that divergence, and you think about the
1:16:49 – 1:16:52
people that you care about, and the people
1:16:52 – 1:16:55
that you have responsibility for, you
1:16:55 – 1:16:58
know, I'm reminded of, I'm used to reading
1:16:58 – 1:17:01
this story in German, the translation
1:17:01 – 1:17:04
might be a bit imperfect, but in Scripture
1:17:04 – 1:17:06
where Jesus Speaks about the proverbial
1:17:06 – 1:17:08
story of the Good Samaritan.
1:17:08 – 1:17:11
That story started with the question of
1:17:11 – 1:17:13
who is my brother?
1:17:13 – 1:17:15
He said, Be your brother's keeper.
1:17:15 – 1:17:17
Who is my brother?
1:17:17 – 1:17:20
Who are those that are near to me?
1:17:20 – 1:17:24
You think about that for us as farmers and
1:17:24 – 1:17:26
food producers. Who is our brother?
1:17:26 – 1:17:28
Who are we responsible for?
1:17:28 – 1:17:30
Obviously, we're responsible for our
1:17:30 – 1:17:33
family. To what degree are we responsible
1:17:33 – 1:17:36
for the people who consume our food?
1:17:36 – 1:17:39
To what degree are we responsible for our
1:17:39 – 1:17:40
own local community?
1:17:40 – 1:17:42
There's certainly, there's Variations of
1:17:42 – 1:17:45
degrees of responsibility there, but
1:17:45 – 1:17:47
there's also this this phrase that I've
1:17:47 – 1:17:50
heard that if ignorance is bliss, then
1:17:50 – 1:17:51
knowledge is responsibility.
1:17:51 – 1:17:55
And the fact that we know these things and
1:17:55 – 1:17:58
are aware of these things that so many
1:17:58 – 1:18:00
people are unaware of, there's also
1:18:00 – 1:18:02
responsibility that's associated with that
1:18:02 – 1:18:05
of sharing that information and helping
1:18:05 – 1:18:07
other people to be aware, particularly the
1:18:07 – 1:18:09
people that we care about.
1:18:09 – 1:18:12
Absolutely, and to that end, that's why.
1:18:12 – 1:18:15
We on our website have dedicated a portion
1:18:15 – 1:18:18
of it to an education center where, yeah,
1:18:18 – 1:18:21
we have products that are available for
1:18:21 – 1:18:24
sale and that we use and that we have
1:18:24 – 1:18:26
available for clients.
1:18:26 – 1:18:29
But I think from a philanthropic point of
1:18:29 – 1:18:31
view, we have a responsibility to the
1:18:31 – 1:18:34
generation that's coming up after us that
1:18:34 – 1:18:38
if we can help them to be able to
1:18:38 – 1:18:41
find a way that a path that's profitable
1:18:41 – 1:18:44
and being able to make it so that they
1:18:44 – 1:18:47
can be selfsustaining they can function,
1:18:47 – 1:18:50
they can have a normal life on the farm
1:18:50 – 1:18:52
by changing a few things.
1:18:52 – 1:18:54
I think it's a wonderful thing.
1:18:54 – 1:18:57
An anecdotal story, we were attending a
1:18:57 – 1:19:00
conference in Saskatoon and I had a young
1:19:00 – 1:19:03
fella At the dinner time there, he tapped
1:19:03 – 1:19:07
me on the shoulder and he says, Are you
1:19:07 – 1:19:10
Patrick Fabian?" I said, Well, if I owe
1:19:10 – 1:19:12
you money, no, I'm not."
1:19:12 – 1:19:16
And he said, I want to shake your hand and
1:19:16 – 1:19:17
thank you with sincerity.
1:19:17 – 1:19:20
I said, oh, OK, you're welcome.
1:19:20 – 1:19:22
What's going on? And he was a young
1:19:22 – 1:19:24
fellow. He wasn't very old.
1:19:24 – 1:19:26
He's probably early 30s, if that.
1:19:26 – 1:19:29
He said, we farm. You're beating yourself.
1:19:29 – 1:19:32
I know. I know. Just look at my hair.
1:19:32 – 1:19:35
I go. We he said we were farming a small
1:19:35 – 1:19:38
farm, dry land farm about 2500 or 3000
1:19:38 – 1:19:41
acres, I think he said, and he said we're
1:19:41 – 1:19:44
going backwards fast says, I'm one of the
1:19:44 – 1:19:47
guys on Twitter that keeps asking you
1:19:47 – 1:19:48
questions. Okay, well, that's, that's
1:19:48 – 1:19:50
okay. Fair enough.
1:19:50 – 1:19:53
I didn't know who it was, because I've got
1:19:53 – 1:19:56
about 30 guys that are asking me questions
1:19:56 – 1:19:59
on Twitter. But nonetheless, he said that
1:19:59 – 1:20:02
we started following what you recommend
1:20:02 – 1:20:03
and suggested last year.
1:20:03 – 1:20:07
And he said, that's why I wanted to come
1:20:07 – 1:20:08
and thank you personally.
1:20:08 – 1:20:11
He said, by doing this, our crops haven't
1:20:11 – 1:20:13
looked this good ever.
1:20:13 – 1:20:15
He said, but not just that.
1:20:15 – 1:20:19
He said, I had enough money at the end
1:20:19 – 1:20:22
of the year that I was able to take
1:20:22 – 1:20:25
my wife and family to Disneyland.
1:20:25 – 1:20:28
And, you know, you could have given me the
1:20:28 – 1:20:31
winning lottery ticket numbers for the
1:20:31 – 1:20:34
next lottery. It wouldn't have brought as
1:20:34 – 1:20:37
much joy and satisfaction to me as hearing
1:20:37 – 1:20:39
that young man make that statement because
1:20:39 – 1:20:42
it goes deeper. If we can provide
1:20:42 – 1:20:45
financial stability to these young farmers
1:20:45 – 1:20:47
by changing a few things that they're
1:20:47 – 1:20:50
doing, we can enhance their profitability.
1:20:50 – 1:20:53
If we can reduce the financial stress in
1:20:53 – 1:20:56
the marriage, we can reduce the stress in
1:20:56 – 1:20:57
the family dynamic.
1:20:57 – 1:20:59
We have a stronger family.
1:20:59 – 1:21:02
And as a result, that young fella coming
1:21:02 – 1:21:06
and shaking my hand made my entire month.
1:21:06 – 1:21:08
Like it was just, it was amazing.
1:21:09 – 1:21:11
I love that. And that's one of the reasons
1:21:11 – 1:21:15
we've had a lot of guys say, well, why are
1:21:15 – 1:21:17
you sharing your secrets and all this of
1:21:17 – 1:21:19
stuff? Well, it's not that we're sharing
1:21:19 – 1:21:21
the secrets, it's just that there's
1:21:21 – 1:21:22
another path available.
1:21:22 – 1:21:24
And I feel like it's, we're obliged in
1:21:24 – 1:21:27
some respects to be able to share that and
1:21:27 – 1:21:29
offer that as a solution to those that
1:21:29 – 1:21:31
might want to look at it.
1:21:31 – 1:21:33
And freely we have received, freely given.
1:21:33 – 1:21:35
And there's this foundational principle
1:21:35 – 1:21:38
that the more we put out there, this, I
1:21:38 – 1:21:40
found this to be so true in my life.
1:21:40 – 1:21:43
The more you put out there, the more you
1:21:43 – 1:21:45
share, the more comes back to you.
1:21:45 – 1:21:47
People share their wisdom with you in
1:21:47 – 1:21:49
exchange, and you have this compounded
1:21:49 – 1:21:51
accelerated learning that you would never
1:21:51 – 1:21:53
have if you kept things to yourself.
1:21:53 – 1:21:54
You're right. Yeah.
1:21:54 – 1:21:55
That's a wonderful ending note.
1:21:56 – 1:21:58
Patrick, Andrew, Stephen, thank you for
1:21:58 – 1:22:00
being here. Thank you for sharing your
1:22:00 – 1:22:01
work and your wisdom.
1:22:01 – 1:22:03
And I've immensely enjoyed this
1:22:03 – 1:22:05
conversation. I'm sure our listeners will
1:22:05 – 1:22:08
as well, and look forward to chatting with
1:22:08 – 1:22:11
you again soon. The team at AEA and I are
1:22:11 – 1:22:13
dedicated to bringing this show to you
1:22:13 – 1:22:15
because we believe that knowledge and
1:22:15 – 1:22:17
information is the foundation of
1:22:17 – 1:22:17
successful regenerative systems.
1:22:17 – 1:22:20
At AEA, we believe that growing better
1:22:20 – 1:22:22
quality food and making more money from
1:22:22 – 1:22:23
your crops is possible.
1:22:23 – 1:22:26
And since 2006, we've worked with leading
1:22:26 – 1:22:28
professional growers to help them do just
1:22:28 – 1:22:29
that.
1:22:29 – 1:22:32
At AEA, we don't guess, we test, we
1:22:32 – 1:22:34
analyze, and we provide recommendations
1:22:34 – 1:22:36
based on scientific data, knowledge, and
1:22:36 – 1:22:38
experience. We've developed products that
1:22:38 – 1:22:40
are uniquely positioned to help growers
1:22:40 – 1:22:42
make more money with regenerative
1:22:42 – 1:22:44
agriculture. If you are a professional
1:22:44 – 1:22:47
grower who believes in testing instead of
1:22:47 – 1:22:49
guessing, someone who believes in a better
1:22:49 – 1:22:52
more regenerative way to grow, visit
1:22:52 – 1:22:54
advancingecoagcom and contact us to see if
1:22:54 – 1:22:56
AEA is right for you.
