Episode 179: Rewilding Livestock Instincts for Soil Health with Bob Kinford

Bob Kinford is a veteran stockman and grazing consultant who has spent a lifetime observing and refining the way we interact with livestock. His journey began as a child watching cattle scatter while sheep and goats remained bunched, leading him to question the conventional belief that cows lack decision-making capabilities. Through decades of working alone, he developed a unique approach to managing large herds without the use of permanent or electric fencing, focusing instead on the intuitive relationship between the handler and the animal’s natural instincts.

Bob advocates for the “rebooting” of cattle to restore their innate herd instincts and selective grazing habits. He demonstrates how this transition allows livestock to become more nutritionally self-sufficient, often consuming invasive species and “weeds” like leafy spurge or spotted knapweed that they would typically ignore in a stressed environment. By utilizing proactive management, he illustrates how stress-free handling can significantly increase forage productivity, soil health through distributed fertility, and overall ranch profitability.

In this episode John and Bob discuss:

The inherent intelligence and decision-making capabilities of livestock compared to mainstream scientific views
Managing large herds across vast landscapes without the use of traditional or electronic fencing
Creating murmurations in cattle to guide their movement through subtle body positioning and intention
The three-day “reboot” process that triggers cattle to begin eating highly nutritious invasive plants
Strategies for increasing animal weight gain by reducing the stress associated with traditional feeding and moving
The relationship between animal bedding patterns and the development of mycorrhizal fungi in the soil

Additional Resources
To learn more about Bob and his work, please visit: https://migratorygrazing.com/ or http://bobkinford.com/

About John Kempf
John Kempf is the founder of Advancing Eco Agriculture (AEA). A top expert in biological and regenerative farming, John founded AEA in 2006 to help fellow farmers by providing the education, tools, and strategies that will have a global effect on the food supply and those who grow it.

Through intense study and the knowledge gleaned from many industry leaders, John is building a comprehensive systems-based approach to plant nutrition – a system solidly based on the sciences of plant physiology, mineral nutrition, and soil microbiology.

Support For This Show & Helping You Grow
Since 2006, AEA has been on a mission to help growers become more resilient, efficient, and profitable with regenerative agriculture.

AEA works directly with growers to apply its unique line of liquid mineral crop nutrition products and biological inoculants. Informed by cutting-edge plant and soil data-gathering techniques, AEA’s science-based programs empower farm operations to meet the crop quality markers that matter the most.

AEA has created real and lasting change on millions of acres with its products and data-driven services by working hand-in-hand with growers to produce healthier soil, stronger crops, and higher profits.

Beyond working on the ground with growers, AEA leads in regenerative agriculture media and education, producing and distributing the popular and highly-regarded Regenerative Agriculture Podcast, inspiring webinars, and other educational content that serve as go-to resources for growers worldwide.

Learn more about AEA’s regenerative programs and products: https://www.advancingecoag.com

Podcast Transcript

0:00 – 0:00

Good time.

0:03 – 0:04

Hi, friends, this is John.

0:05 – 0:06

Welcome back to the Regenerative

0:06 – 0:07

Agriculture Podcast, where we

0:07 – 0:09

have all kinds of fun

0:09 – 0:10

conversations about all kinds of

0:10 – 0:12

fun topics related to

0:12 – 0:13

regeneration,

0:13 – 0:14

regeneration of soil,

0:15 – 0:17

of plants, of livestock, of our

0:17 – 0:19

health and of our relationships.

0:20 – 0:22

Today, I'm looking forward to

0:23 – 0:25

perhaps a bit of an unusual or

0:25 – 0:26

interesting conversation, an

0:26 – 0:28

uncommon conversation for many

0:28 – 0:29

of us.

0:29 – 0:30

There

0:30 – 0:31

are

0:31 – 0:33

Years ago, I read this

0:33 – 0:34

fascinating little book by

0:34 – 0:36

Rupert Sheldrake titled,

0:36 – 0:38

Dogs Who Know When Their Owners

0:38 – 0:38

Are Coming Home.

0:40 – 0:40

And

0:41 – 0:44

mainstream science for many

0:44 – 0:46

years referred to animals as

0:46 – 0:47

being dumb animals.

0:47 – 0:49

Oh, they have a smaller brain

0:49 – 0:50

capacity than us.

0:50 – 0:51

They don't have decision -making

0:51 – 0:52

capability like us.

0:54 – 0:55

And yeah, they were just

0:55 – 0:56

referred to as dumb animals.

0:56 – 0:57

Well,

0:57 – 0:58

you don't have to spend very

0:58 – 1:00

much time with livestock or dogs

1:01 – 1:02

really any animals in a

1:02 – 1:04

production agriculture setting,

1:04 – 1:06

to figure out that that is not

1:06 – 1:06

true.

1:07 – 1:09

That they are actually very

1:09 – 1:10

capable of decision making,

1:10 – 1:11

they're very intuitive, they're

1:11 – 1:12

very aware. Probably,

1:13 – 1:14

as in the case of dogs who know

1:14 – 1:15

when their owners are coming

1:15 – 1:17

home from quite some distance,

1:17 – 1:19

they're aware in ways that we

1:19 – 1:19

are not.

1:20 – 1:21

And so I've really been looking

1:21 – 1:22

forward to having this

1:22 – 1:24

conversation with Bob Kinford,

1:24 – 1:25

who's a name that may be

1:25 – 1:27

familiar to many of you.

1:28 – 1:29

Bob, thank you for joining me

1:29 – 1:31

here today. Rather than offering

1:31 – 1:32

an introduction

1:32 – 1:33

and a background of your work.

1:33 – 1:35

I'd love for you to describe

1:35 – 1:36

that and tell us a little bit

1:36 – 1:37

about your journey and the

1:37 – 1:38

things that you've been working

1:38 – 1:39

on.

1:40 – 1:41

Well,

1:40 – 1:43

I started out my dad was an

1:43 – 1:45

electrician and we lived out

1:46 – 1:47

of town.

1:47 – 1:48

All the neighbors around us are

1:48 – 1:50

ranchers and farmers and

1:51 – 1:52

home life wasn't that good.

1:52 – 1:54

And I wound up spending all my

1:54 – 1:56

time on the on the farms and

1:56 – 1:57

ranches around the house.

1:58 – 1:59

I mean, from the time five years

1:59 – 2:00

old, I'd

2:00 – 2:02

run off and go help somebody do

2:02 – 2:03

something or,

2:03 – 2:05

or probably pretending like I'm

2:05 – 2:06

helping somebody and they

2:06 – 2:06

tolerated me.

2:08 – 2:09

But by the time I was eight

2:09 – 2:10

years old, I knew I wanted to

2:10 – 2:11

be,

2:11 – 2:12

you know, I was just going to be

2:12 – 2:13

involved with livestock.

2:13 – 2:14

That was just

2:15 – 2:15

a done deal.

2:16 – 2:18

And everything that I ever

2:18 – 2:20

thought about doing was either,

2:20 – 2:21

you

2:21 – 2:23

know, because it was involved

2:23 – 2:24

with livestock or I

2:25 – 2:26

might make enough money to buy a

2:26 – 2:27

ranch.

2:28 – 2:28

And.

2:29 – 2:31

About eight years old, I started

2:31 – 2:32

asking people, because everybody

2:32 – 2:33

had sheep

2:33 – 2:35

or goats, or sheep and goats,

2:35 – 2:36

and cows.

2:38 – 2:39

And so I started asking people,

2:39 – 2:40

well, how come your sheep

2:41 – 2:42

are over there, they're all

2:42 – 2:43

grazing together, your goats are

2:43 – 2:44

all grazing together, and your

2:44 – 2:45

cows scatter out?

2:47 – 2:48

And the

2:48 – 2:50

answer was always the same.

2:50 – 2:51

Well, that's just what cows do.

2:51 – 2:52

That's just what cows do.

2:53 – 2:55

And it was something that just

2:55 – 2:57

didn't set right on me.

2:57 – 2:59

And as such, I just,

3:00 – 3:02

at that young of an age, I was

3:02 – 3:03

starting to try to figure out

3:05 – 3:06

different ways of handling

3:06 – 3:08

livestock and observing them.

3:08 – 3:10

By the time I was 11 or 12,

3:11 – 3:12

there were people that I would

3:12 – 3:14

not help just because of the way

3:14 – 3:15

that they handled their

3:15 – 3:15

livestock.

3:17 – 3:18

And

3:20 – 3:21

oh, along about

3:23 – 3:26

79 or 80, I started reading

3:26 – 3:28

about this guy called Roger

3:28 – 3:29

Savory.

3:30 – 3:31

And well, I need to back up

3:31 – 3:32

because I did have one guy that

3:32 – 3:33

I like to help.

3:34 – 3:35

I didn't get to go help too much

3:35 – 3:36

because he never needed any

3:36 – 3:37

help.

3:37 – 3:38

But he told me, he said,

3:39 – 3:41

said, you know, Bobby, he says,

3:41 – 3:43

if you take care of your stock,

3:43 – 3:44

they'll take

4:27 – 4:27

Are we back?

4:29 – 4:30

Oh, there you are.

4:30 – 4:31

Yeah, I told you.

4:31 – 4:32

I don't plan any of this.

4:33 – 4:35

I did not write my own story.

4:35 – 4:36

Yeah.

4:36 – 4:37

It's like last night.

4:38 – 4:39

Not the dog. No, no one is

4:39 – 4:40

coming home. I don't even know

4:40 – 4:41

if I'm home or not.

4:44 – 4:46

Last I heard on my end, you were

4:46 – 4:47

sharing the story of a neighbor

4:47 – 4:48

that you helped occasionally,

4:48 – 4:49

even though he didn't really

4:49 – 4:50

need your help.

4:50 – 4:52

And he would tell you that if

4:52 – 4:53

you take care of the livestock,

4:53 – 4:54

the livestock will take care of

4:54 – 4:55

you.

4:55 – 4:56

And and then

4:57 – 5:00

along about 79 or 80, I read an

5:00 – 5:01

article on Alan Savory.

5:02 – 5:04

And his whole view on

5:05 – 5:06

the

5:07 – 5:08

grazing and recovery, all of

5:08 – 5:09

that made sense.

5:09 – 5:11

It just instantly made sense.

5:12 – 5:13

The only thing that didn't make

5:13 – 5:14

any sense was why do you need to

5:14 – 5:15

have fences to do this?

5:15 – 5:17

You should be able to do it

5:18 – 5:19

without

5:19 – 5:21

having to build fences and not

5:21 – 5:22

having to be there all the time.

5:24 – 5:26

And most of the places I've

5:26 – 5:28

worked on have always been

5:28 – 5:29

absentee owners.

5:29 – 5:31

I mean, I had times where,

5:31 – 5:34

you know, back in the 80s, I

5:34 – 5:36

could go to work for one guy for

5:36 – 5:39

for $750 a month and be in a

5:39 – 5:40

bunk house, or I go to work over

5:40 – 5:42

here and have 500 cows to take

5:42 – 5:43

care of by myself for

5:44 – 5:46

$300 a month, I take the $300 a

5:46 – 5:47

month job.

5:49 – 5:52

It's 70, almost 72.

5:52 – 5:53

I'm still the same way.

5:53 – 5:54

It's

5:54 – 5:55

the animals are the more

5:55 – 5:57

important part of the equation

5:57 – 5:58

than the money,

6:00 – 6:01

which I need to start figuring

6:01 – 6:02

out a way to change that a

6:02 – 6:03

little bit so I can fix my gas

6:03 – 6:04

lines.

6:06 – 6:07

But

6:09 – 6:11

in the process of being able to

6:11 – 6:12

work by myself

6:13 – 6:16

and always riding colts or just

6:16 – 6:17

somebody sending me some

6:18 – 6:20

real crappy, crappy horses that

6:20 – 6:21

would

6:21 – 6:24

break into just at whatever time

6:24 – 6:25

6:26 – 6:28

had to start, you know, I was

6:28 – 6:30

experimenting because I had to,

6:30 – 6:32

and I was,

6:32 – 6:33

I'd start noticing things and

6:33 – 6:34

put them back together.

6:35 – 6:36

And

6:36 – 6:37

eventually I

6:37 – 6:39

got to where I

6:40 – 6:41

could have

6:41 – 6:43

30 section pasture

6:43 – 6:46

and you know, I might have have

6:46 – 6:48

800 animals on it and broken up

6:48 – 6:50

between six or eight water

6:50 – 6:51

points. And I would have six or

6:51 – 6:52

eight herds going out there.

6:54 – 6:54

Of course,

6:54 – 6:55

you don't want to really tell

6:55 – 6:57

anybody you're doing this

6:57 – 6:58

because you know, they think

6:58 – 6:59

you're crazy.

6:59 – 7:00

So it

7:01 – 7:02

got up to

7:02 – 7:05

1992,

7:05 – 7:06

I believe it was.

7:07 – 7:10

I went to work for Leachman

7:10 – 7:12

Cattle Company out of Billings,

7:13 – 7:13

and I

7:15 – 7:17

was forced into going to a Bud

7:17 – 7:18

Williams

7:18 – 7:19

seminar.

7:20 – 7:21

Now,

7:22 – 7:23

it's my relationship with Bud is

7:23 – 7:24

kind of weird because I was

7:24 – 7:26

forced to go to that school.

7:26 – 7:28

And my first reaction when I saw

7:28 – 7:29

Bud Williams,

7:29 – 7:31

an advertisement for Bud

7:31 – 7:31

Williams School was,

7:32 – 7:33

Who the heck does this guy think

7:33 – 7:34

he is? He's going to teach

7:34 – 7:36

ranchers and cowboys that are

7:36 – 7:37

always handling cattle how to

7:37 – 7:38

handle cattle.

7:39 – 7:40

But I also

7:41 – 7:43

never made the connection as to

7:43 – 7:45

why when I was working by

7:45 – 7:48

myself, I could handle more

7:48 – 7:49

cattle with less effort than

7:49 – 7:50

when I had a bunch of people.

7:52 – 7:54

And I sat through that class,

7:54 – 7:55

and it's like,

7:58 – 8:00

everybody kept asking these

8:00 – 8:00

questions. And I'm thinking,

8:01 – 8:02

man, this is pretty obvious.

8:03 – 8:06

So the last day of the school, I

8:06 – 8:07

went ahead, and instead of going

8:07 – 8:08

to lunch, I sat down and talked

8:08 – 8:09

with Bud.

8:10 – 8:11

And I started telling him some

8:11 – 8:12

of the things I'm doing, like

8:12 – 8:15

what I call a fade

8:16 – 8:16

turn, where

8:17 – 8:18

If a cow turns to go running

8:18 – 8:20

off, I'll turn with it.

8:20 – 8:21

But instead of stopping parallel

8:21 – 8:23

or chasing on the parallel, I'll

8:23 – 8:23

take a

8:24 – 8:26

step or two off to the side a

8:26 – 8:27

little bit wide.

8:27 – 8:29

And it just shuts them down.

8:29 – 8:30

You don't have to do anything

8:30 – 8:31

else. It just shuts them down.

8:31 – 8:32

They turn around and go back.

8:33 – 8:34

So I'm talking to Bud about

8:34 – 8:35

this.

8:36 – 8:38

And he he

8:38 – 8:39

told me, he says, well, you're

8:39 – 8:40

on the right track.

8:40 – 8:41

He says, I could tell by the

8:41 – 8:42

questions you asked that you

8:42 – 8:43

were ahead of what I'm teaching

8:43 – 8:45

in the class. And I said, well,

8:45 – 8:47

do you have any

8:48 – 8:50

in any courses to where I can go

8:50 – 8:52

and take and kind of

8:53 – 8:55

fine -tune this?" And he says,

8:55 – 8:56

no, I don't. He says,

8:57 – 8:59

in a classroom, he says, it's

8:59 – 9:00

impossible to teach in these

9:00 – 9:01

classes because it's too

9:01 – 9:02

advanced,

9:03 – 9:05

which struck me as kind of odd

9:05 – 9:06

at that time.

9:07 – 9:09

And I thought on that for

9:09 – 9:10

20 years

9:11 – 9:13

before I figured out that

9:13 – 9:14

it wasn't

9:15 – 9:17

that it's advanced because no

9:17 – 9:18

stockmanship is advanced.

9:19 – 9:21

Every bit of it is,

9:21 – 9:23

is just an interaction.

9:24 – 9:24

And it's,

9:25 – 9:26

it's,

9:26 – 9:27

You know, you might be more

9:27 – 9:29

advanced at reading something

9:29 – 9:32

but it's all taken advantage of

9:32 – 9:32

9:34 – 9:36

working against Their their

9:37 – 9:38

natural instincts,

9:38 – 9:39

you know, you see all these

9:39 – 9:40

videos on

9:41 – 9:42

on Facebook these guys he got

9:42 – 9:44

these wild cows and they come

9:44 – 9:45

out and they got

9:46 – 9:49

five cowboys and 20 cows and boy

9:49 – 9:50

as soon as they the cows are

9:50 – 9:52

already running and they just

9:52 – 9:53

Break off into a dead run and

9:53 – 9:54

it's like

9:55 – 9:56

you're training them to be that

9:56 – 9:57

way,

9:58 – 9:59

you know Because that's if

9:59 – 10:00

something's chasing you you're

10:00 – 10:02

gonna run and if every time you

10:02 – 10:04

see something and it chases you

10:04 – 10:06

you're gonna run you're gonna

10:06 – 10:07

get away from it

10:08 – 10:09

and

10:09 – 10:11

you can go out and

10:12 – 10:14

And instead of chasing them,

10:15 – 10:18

when they go to run back off and

10:18 – 10:18

then just

10:19 – 10:21

kind of mess around a little bit

10:21 – 10:23

and figure out where you think

10:23 – 10:24

they're going to go, pop up over

10:24 – 10:26

there and they run again.

10:26 – 10:27

And it's really funny because

10:27 – 10:28

I've done this on

10:29 – 10:30

on animals where

10:31 – 10:33

a crew of four guys tried for

10:33 – 10:34

five days to get a bunch of

10:34 – 10:36

slick yearlings in

10:36 – 10:37

and they

10:38 – 10:39

didn't do it all week.

10:40 – 10:41

And I went out in the same

10:41 – 10:42

pasture and I went out and I

10:42 – 10:43

started messing around.

10:43 – 10:44

They ran.

10:44 – 10:45

The only loafing I did was

10:45 – 10:47

around the back of a hill.

10:47 – 10:49

And I came out the other side

10:49 – 10:51

ahead of them, and they turned

10:51 – 10:51

around and went back.

10:51 – 10:52

And I loped back.

10:52 – 10:53

And after three times of that,

10:54 – 10:55

when

10:56 – 10:57

I met them at the one end, they

10:58 – 10:59

changed direction.

10:59 – 11:02

Well, instead of chasing them, I

11:02 – 11:04

rode off to the right.

11:04 – 11:06

And there's something about this

11:06 – 11:07

when,

11:08 – 11:09

if you're going off

11:10 – 11:11

to the right or to the left,

11:12 – 11:13

and you catch their eye, well,

11:13 – 11:14

that animal,

11:16 – 11:17

their basic instinct is to go

11:17 – 11:18

around you. Well, when you're

11:19 – 11:21

going out at kind of an angle to

11:21 – 11:22

get out there,

11:22 – 11:24

and that was

11:24 – 11:25

the straight angles when I was

11:25 – 11:27

just figuring this out,

11:28 – 11:29

they'll tend to go the other

11:29 – 11:30

way.

11:31 – 11:32

And

11:33 – 11:34

I did that.

11:35 – 11:36

four or five times.

11:36 – 11:37

And

11:38 – 11:39

by one o 'clock I had them

11:39 – 11:40

pinned.

11:42 – 11:43

Now, these other guys, they

11:43 – 11:44

didn't appreciate the fact I got

11:44 – 11:45

them pinned. It made them mad.

11:47 – 11:49

But the guy that was running

11:49 – 11:50

that place, him and I went ahead

11:50 – 11:51

and

11:52 – 11:54

we branded them and I messed

11:54 – 11:55

around with them in the pins,

11:55 – 11:56

put them in a little trap.

11:56 – 11:57

And the next day I drove them

11:57 – 11:59

three miles and they actually

11:59 – 12:01

drove better than the

12:03 – 12:04

cows on that ranch or either one

12:04 – 12:06

of their sister units.

12:08 – 12:10

So and it makes people mad when

12:10 – 12:11

you do that, you know, it's like

12:11 – 12:12

because you're arrogant and it's

12:12 – 12:14

no, it's it's

12:15 – 12:16

I've accidentally figured things

12:16 – 12:17

out because I'm weird.

12:19 – 12:20

So at some point in the

12:20 – 12:22

conversation, possibly it might

12:22 – 12:23

have been before the recording

12:23 – 12:24

was turned on. You said

12:24 – 12:25

something to the effect of

12:25 – 12:27

animal psychology and grazing

12:27 – 12:28

management and pasture

12:28 – 12:30

management is all it's all the

12:30 – 12:31

same thing. It's all connected.

12:31 – 12:32

We can't have a conversation

12:32 – 12:33

about one

12:33 – 12:34

without.

12:35 – 12:36

Exactly.

12:36 – 12:38

Exactly. And it's kind of funny

12:38 – 12:39

because

12:39 – 12:41

everybody's you know, I always

12:41 – 12:42

called

12:42 – 12:44

The polywire is recreational

12:44 – 12:45

fencing.

12:46 – 12:46

And these collars,

12:47 – 12:49

my new name for the collars is

12:49 – 12:49

beach bum fencing,

12:51 – 12:52

because they can sit down on the

12:52 – 12:53

beach and they can

12:53 – 12:54

adjust, you know, adjust their

12:54 – 12:55

fences.

12:55 – 12:57

And that can be useful.

12:57 – 12:59

A couple of weeks ago, I was out

12:59 – 12:59

in California

13:00 – 13:01

and,

13:01 – 13:02

you know, the people are just

13:02 – 13:03

starting out.

13:04 – 13:05

They're wanting to have a horse

13:05 – 13:07

refuge, but they're working with

13:07 – 13:10

Roger Savory to build up the

13:10 – 13:11

grass. So they're using cows

13:12 – 13:14

and they're not there.

13:14 – 13:16

And the first set of cows, they

13:16 – 13:17

got her a little bit waspy.

13:18 – 13:19

You know, they see you coming

13:19 – 13:21

and they'd be running off.

13:22 – 13:24

So I spent one day out there, no

13:24 – 13:25

horses on the place yet.

13:25 – 13:26

I'm out there walking the hills

13:26 – 13:28

and I got them down to where I

13:28 – 13:29

could stop them on foot.

13:31 – 13:31

you know, but

13:32 – 13:33

there's some sort of a

13:33 – 13:34

relationship and I'm still

13:34 – 13:36

trying to kind of figure it out.

13:37 – 13:38

Uh,

13:39 – 13:41

good friends and clients in, in,

13:41 – 13:42

uh,

13:42 – 13:44

in Kansas, Josh and Gwen Hoy,

13:44 – 13:45

they

13:45 – 13:47

figured out that what I'm doing

13:47 – 13:49

is creating murmurations in

13:50 – 13:51

the cattle.

13:52 – 13:53

And I had, I'd never, I'd never

13:53 – 13:54

thought about that, but

13:54 – 13:56

murmurations is like, you know,

13:56 – 13:57

the, the flock of birds,

13:58 – 13:59

lots of black birds or

13:59 – 14:01

fish.

14:02 – 14:04

And they were watching a

14:04 – 14:05

special

14:06 – 14:07

on murmurations.

14:07 – 14:10

And at one point, it got down to

14:10 – 14:11

where they were looking at a

14:11 – 14:12

million wildebeest from

14:12 – 14:13

a satellite.

14:15 – 14:16

And it was actual video.

14:16 – 14:17

And they showed where

14:17 – 14:19

the one in the front just turned

14:19 – 14:21

a little bit, and it just went

14:21 – 14:21

right down the line.

14:21 – 14:22

Everything starts turning.

14:24 – 14:25

And Gwen said,

14:25 – 14:26

she says, you know, when I'm

14:26 – 14:28

writing, because when I teach, I

14:28 – 14:30

cannot teach this like Bud did.

14:30 – 14:31

You cannot

14:31 – 14:33

teach this in a classroom

14:33 – 14:34

because it's

14:35 – 14:38

It's too abstract to what we've

14:38 – 14:39

learned all of our life.

14:40 – 14:41

So I'll go out and I'll

14:41 – 14:42

demonstrate and then I'll have,

14:42 – 14:43

I'll have you follow me

14:44 – 14:46

and be on the off side to where

14:46 – 14:47

you're not interfering with the

14:47 – 14:49

cow and follow me, see what I'm

14:49 – 14:51

doing. And then I'll let you do

14:51 – 14:51

it. And then,

14:52 – 14:53

you know, and we just keep

14:53 – 14:54

taking turns like that for five

14:54 – 14:55

days.

14:55 – 14:56

And

14:56 – 14:57

there are some people that,

15:00 – 15:01

don't have a talent for reading

15:01 – 15:02

animals, don't have a talent on

15:02 – 15:03

the horse,

15:03 – 15:05

but they're, they're trying and

15:05 – 15:06

they don't quite get it.

15:06 – 15:07

But then you get somebody else

15:07 – 15:08

that's got a talent a little bit

15:08 – 15:10

with both. And boy, by the

15:10 – 15:11

second or third day, they're,

15:11 – 15:12

they're playing around with it

15:12 – 15:13

and they're figuring it out.

15:13 – 15:15

But she says, you

15:16 – 15:17

know, cause one of the ways that

15:17 – 15:18

I'll also turn

15:19 – 15:20

cattle is I'll

15:20 – 15:22

go down the side of the herd and

15:23 – 15:25

instead of trying to get out of

15:25 – 15:26

front of them and turn them,

15:26 – 15:28

I'll get about 50 head back and

15:28 – 15:29

I'll just,

15:29 – 15:30

I'll put a bend in my horses

15:30 – 15:31

back to where instead of

15:31 – 15:32

traveling straight forward,

15:33 – 15:34

they're bent and traveling to

15:34 – 15:35

the side.

15:35 – 15:37

And I just start finding my zone

15:37 – 15:39

where that, that zone is that's

15:39 – 15:40

going to start affecting them.

15:41 – 15:42

And then all of a sudden,

15:44 – 15:45

four or five cows up in front of

15:45 – 15:46

me, we'll just start bump,

15:46 – 15:47

bump, bump.

15:47 – 15:48

And, and they'll,

15:49 – 15:51

the end might be 50 cows up

15:51 – 15:52

ahead of me.

15:52 – 15:54

And they'll be turning way

15:54 – 15:55

before I ever get there.

15:56 – 15:59

And and she says what she says

15:59 – 16:00

after

16:00 – 16:01

seeing that, that she realized

16:01 – 16:03

I'll be riding along and I'll

16:03 – 16:06

shift my back. And when I shift

16:06 – 16:08

my back, my horse's back turns

16:08 – 16:09

like that. And then the cows

16:09 – 16:11

wind up doing the same thing.

16:12 – 16:13

So the cows are essentially

16:13 – 16:14

turning away from you.

16:15 – 16:17

Well, they're I'm doing the

16:17 – 16:19

murmuration. I'm I'm bending my

16:19 – 16:21

horse like that to turn this

16:21 – 16:22

way.

16:22 – 16:23

And they just start

16:23 – 16:25

doing it before I get there.

16:25 – 16:27

So just for clarification for

16:27 – 16:28

the people who are listening to

16:28 – 16:29

audio only.

16:30 – 16:31

So if you angle your back so

16:31 – 16:33

that your face is facing.

16:33 – 16:35

Well, when I'm

16:36 – 16:37

on a horse and I want to

16:38 – 16:39

say, I'm going to

16:39 – 16:40

go left,

16:41 – 16:44

I'll drop my, I'll drop my left

16:44 – 16:45

hip.

16:46 – 16:48

And of course the horse starts

16:48 – 16:49

to go away from it.

16:49 – 16:50

Well, when you're dropping your

16:50 – 16:50

left hip,

16:51 – 16:52

you get a bind, a little bend in

16:52 – 16:53

your spine.

16:54 – 16:55

Well, and when you stop and

16:55 – 16:55

think about it,

16:56 – 16:57

that

16:57 – 16:59

same thing happens to the horse.

17:00 – 17:02

And then as you're coming up and

17:02 – 17:03

we've.

17:03 – 17:05

got this saying in the business,

17:05 – 17:07

you got to get their eye, which

17:07 – 17:08

every time I hear that, I want

17:08 – 17:11

to slap somebody because as long

17:11 – 17:12

as you're not in the blind spot,

17:12 – 17:13

they can see you.

17:14 – 17:15

If you're not doing what you

17:15 – 17:17

want them to do,

17:18 – 17:20

your body position is correct

17:21 – 17:22

for what you want them to do.

17:24 – 17:26

So Gwen was saying, OK, she

17:26 – 17:26

says,

17:26 – 17:27

get

17:28 – 17:29

that bend in your back, and then

17:29 – 17:30

your horse gets that bend in the

17:30 – 17:32

back. And of course, then I wind

17:32 – 17:33

17:33 – 17:34

kind of moving the hip out a

17:34 – 17:35

little bit

17:35 – 17:36

to where it gives the illusion

17:36 – 17:38

that I'm turning that way.

17:38 – 17:39

I'm still going in a straight

17:39 – 17:40

line, but it gives the illusion

17:40 – 17:42

to the cow that I'm turning that

17:42 – 17:43

way. And they start reacting to

17:43 – 17:44

it and turn.

17:46 – 17:47

Creating murmurations.

17:47 – 17:48

I love that. It's a beautiful

17:48 – 17:49

image.

17:50 – 17:51

And it is fun.

17:52 – 17:53

It is fun.

17:54 – 17:55

I've

17:55 – 17:57

started doing where part

17:58 – 18:00

of what we have to do is just

18:01 – 18:02

try to get the cattle to all go

18:02 – 18:05

into water at about the same

18:05 – 18:05

time.

18:06 – 18:07

Because if you're going to have

18:07 – 18:08

a herd,

18:09 – 18:10

they've got to be going into

18:10 – 18:12

water at the same time, and they

18:12 – 18:13

need to be

18:13 – 18:15

ruminating at the same time.

18:15 – 18:17

So we get them in there, and

18:17 – 18:19

then we're kind of sitting on

18:19 – 18:20

them.

18:22 – 18:23

And

18:23 – 18:25

you'll have little bunches of

18:25 – 18:26

cows sitting around.

18:26 – 18:27

And they'll start getting up,

18:27 – 18:29

and you'll have two groups of

18:29 – 18:30

cows.

18:30 – 18:33

about anywhere from 5, 10, 15

18:33 – 18:33

head.

18:34 – 18:36

And they're maybe 20 feet apart

18:36 – 18:37

and

18:37 – 18:38

they'll start grazing off in

18:38 – 18:39

opposite directions.

18:40 – 18:41

And

18:41 – 18:42

you can ride through them.

18:43 – 18:44

I can just go to longcrop right

18:44 – 18:45

through them and angle my horse

18:45 – 18:48

just right where they will turn

18:48 – 18:50

in opposite directions and come

18:50 – 18:52

together and head back towards

18:52 – 18:53

the herd.

18:55 – 18:57

So it's I mean, it's it's

18:57 – 18:59

things that I realize and I have

18:59 – 19:00

to realize that from

19:01 – 19:03

perspective of somebody who's

19:03 – 19:05

only done conventional livestock

19:05 – 19:06

handling.

19:06 – 19:07

or Bud Williams, where it's

19:07 – 19:09

constantly pressure and release,

19:10 – 19:13

that this is something that's

19:13 – 19:14

just abstract.

19:15 – 19:15

trying to

19:16 – 19:17

wrap your head around it.

19:17 – 19:19

You can't wrap your head around

19:19 – 19:20

it until you see it.

19:20 – 19:22

And you really can't

19:22 – 19:24

get your head wrapped around

19:24 – 19:25

until you start doing it.

19:25 – 19:26

And then when you start doing

19:26 – 19:26

it,

19:26 – 19:27

it just,

19:28 – 19:29

after writing consciously for a

19:29 – 19:30

while,

19:30 – 19:32

then you can go ahead and just

19:32 – 19:33

start

19:33 – 19:34

doing it in the subconscious,

19:35 – 19:37

which is where our minds usually

19:37 – 19:39

are when we're doing things.

19:39 – 19:40

Yeah,

19:41 – 19:43

yeah. So coming back to your

19:43 – 19:44

comment about

19:44 – 19:46

stockmanship and

19:46 – 19:47

pasture management, grazing

19:47 – 19:48

management,

19:48 – 19:51

and moving livestock all being

19:51 – 19:51

the

19:52 – 19:52

same thing, all being

19:52 – 19:53

intertwined.

19:54 – 19:55

What does that look like for you

19:55 – 19:57

today when you are managing

19:57 – 19:57

herds of livestock

19:58 – 20:01

with your

20:01 – 20:01

approach?

20:02 – 20:03

How are you thinking about these

20:03 – 20:04

pieces and their interactions?

20:05 – 20:07

Well, it's different.

20:08 – 20:09

Everybody's looking for a silver

20:09 – 20:10

bullet.

20:11 – 20:11

And

20:12 – 20:14

okay, you use fences and what

20:14 – 20:15

are you doing? You're putting

20:15 – 20:16

them down there.

20:16 – 20:17

Okay, it's going to take

20:18 – 20:20

one day to eat this or it's

20:20 – 20:21

going to take

20:21 – 20:23

four hours and then we're going

20:23 – 20:24

to have to move them every four

20:24 – 20:25

hours.

20:27 – 20:28

That isn't

20:29 – 20:30

the way the

20:31 – 20:32

wild herds do it.

20:32 – 20:33

That isn't the way that animals

20:33 – 20:34

graze. They don't stay in one

20:34 – 20:37

little area for hours or a day.

20:40 – 20:41

They're eating and moving as

20:41 – 20:42

they go.

20:43 – 20:44

And if they hit an area where

20:44 – 20:46

maybe there's

20:47 – 20:48

nothing in that area they really

20:48 – 20:49

want to eat that day,

20:50 – 20:51

they'll line out and they'll

20:52 – 20:53

bump all of a sudden that

20:53 – 20:55

the lead cow will stop

20:55 – 20:56

and

20:57 – 20:58

And it's interesting to watch

20:58 – 21:01

and I'm I'm really this is like

21:01 – 21:04

the dog knowing when the owner's

21:04 – 21:04

coming home

21:06 – 21:07

because I've done this even in

21:07 – 21:08

pivots

21:09 – 21:09

where

21:10 – 21:11

they'll be eating and there'll

21:11 – 21:12

be moving along a little bit.

21:13 – 21:14

And then all of a sudden that

21:14 – 21:16

lead cow will move up,

21:16 – 21:17

just start walking out.

21:17 – 21:18

Everything will line out, go

21:18 – 21:19

with it.

21:19 – 21:21

And then it stops, puts his head

21:21 – 21:22

down and starts eating.

21:22 – 21:23

Everything stops in back of it.

21:24 – 21:25

And it is a

21:25 – 21:28

perfect fit from where that cow

21:28 – 21:29

stopped grazing.

21:30 – 21:32

How do they know where they're

21:32 – 21:33

all fits?

21:33 – 21:34

You know? And I thought at first

21:34 – 21:36

I thought, man, I'm just, this

21:36 – 21:37

is crazy. I'm saying things I'm

21:37 – 21:38

hallucinating.

21:38 – 21:40

And when I talk about this, a

21:40 – 21:41

lot of people say the same, you

21:41 – 21:42

know, think the same thing.

21:42 – 21:43

Well,

21:43 – 21:44

he's just crazy.

21:45 – 21:46

And and it's I

21:48 – 21:50

always wondered why, you know,

21:50 – 21:52

why it isn't obvious to

21:52 – 21:53

everybody else in this.

21:53 – 21:54

And and I

21:54 – 21:55

Temple Grandin has been

21:55 – 21:56

following my work.

21:56 – 21:58

She's she

21:59 – 22:00

mentioned me a couple of times

22:00 – 22:01

in her livestock care book,

22:02 – 22:03

and I had the opportunity to go

22:03 – 22:04

down a meter.

22:05 – 22:07

So we're there talking and she

22:07 – 22:08

just stops

22:08 – 22:10

just mid sentence.

22:10 – 22:11

Just

22:12 – 22:13

did you know you're highly ADHD

22:13 – 22:15

and you're on the spectrum?

22:17 – 22:19

So in other words, I'm like the

22:19 – 22:21

the banjo player and

22:21 – 22:23

deliverance. Only it's cows that

22:23 – 22:24

set me off instead of music.

22:25 – 22:26

22:28 – 22:30

because she says the ADHD makes

22:30 – 22:33

you see patterns and things that

22:33 – 22:34

other people are missing.

22:35 – 22:36

And then

22:36 – 22:39

the autistic side makes you go

22:39 – 22:39

in there and

22:42 – 22:43

investigate it, you know, ask

22:43 – 22:44

questions about it.

22:44 – 22:46

And I've been doing that my

22:46 – 22:47

whole life. So every place

22:48 – 22:49

is different.

22:50 – 22:52

But you go in there and and

22:54 – 22:56

get these heard these words

22:56 – 22:56

rebooted.

22:57 – 22:58

and put them in a pasture and

22:58 – 23:00

they will migrate around the

23:00 – 23:02

whole pasture. Now one of the

23:02 – 23:04

things and this is another thing

23:04 – 23:05

that it's you know, going back

23:05 – 23:07

to the intelligence of animals

23:07 – 23:08

and what they know,

23:10 – 23:12

everything we think we know

23:12 – 23:12

about cows

23:13 – 23:14

from grazing,

23:15 – 23:16

from

23:17 – 23:18

grazing

23:18 – 23:19

traditionally or

23:20 – 23:22

grazing with with the fences is

23:23 – 23:25

actually it's

23:26 – 23:28

only correct in that context.

23:30 – 23:33

When those cows get rebooted and

23:33 – 23:34

are acting like cows,

23:35 – 23:37

their grazing habits change

23:37 – 23:38

tremendously.

23:39 – 23:40

I was just about to begin asking

23:40 – 23:41

you about that.

23:41 – 23:42

How do they change?

23:43 – 23:44

Well, in

23:45 – 23:47

more ways probably than you can

23:47 – 23:48

count.

23:49 – 23:50

One of the things that they do

23:50 – 23:52

is like if it's a growing

23:52 – 23:53

season,

23:53 – 23:54

they'll just start taking that

23:54 – 23:55

top third.

23:57 – 23:58

And, you know, you're getting

23:57 – 23:58

some, you know,

24:01 – 24:03

in your context is constantly

24:03 – 24:03

changing. You don't have the

24:03 – 24:05

same context all day long,

24:06 – 24:07

let alone, you know,

24:07 – 24:08

it's totally,

24:09 – 24:11

totally identical context

24:11 – 24:13

between one rancher, one pasture

24:13 – 24:13

and another.

24:13 – 24:14

When,

24:15 – 24:16

When the grasses come,

24:17 – 24:18

you've got, especially if you

24:18 – 24:19

have a diverse pasture, you've

24:19 – 24:20

got

24:20 – 24:22

some grasses coming on today,

24:23 – 24:24

some forbs coming on three or

24:24 – 24:25

four days from now,

24:26 – 24:27

and

24:27 – 24:30

then you have some different

24:30 – 24:31

grasses coming up three or four

24:31 – 24:32

weeks from now.

24:33 – 24:34

24:35 – 24:37

it's not like you're, you know,

24:37 – 24:38

you talk about,

24:38 – 24:39

you know, grazing at the correct

24:39 – 24:42

time. Well, if you're in a, if

24:43 – 24:44

you're in a situation where

24:44 – 24:45

you're planting your forage in

24:45 – 24:46

that,

24:46 – 24:48

yeah, you can, you can kind of

24:48 – 24:48

time it that way.

24:49 – 24:50

Especially if you're in a

24:50 – 24:52

monocrop situation, but when you

24:52 – 24:54

actually get into diversity

24:54 – 24:56

everything's coming up at

24:56 – 24:57

different times

24:58 – 25:00

and one of the things that is

25:00 – 25:01

you know, if you watch herds of

25:01 – 25:02

elk

25:03 – 25:04

or herds of antelope,

25:05 – 25:06

there's times they're all spread

25:06 – 25:07

out and they'll be going along.

25:08 – 25:09

And then all of a sudden they'll

25:09 – 25:10

just come in together real tight

25:10 – 25:11

and

25:11 – 25:12

they'll stay real tight for a

25:12 – 25:13

little bit and then they go back

25:13 – 25:14

out.

25:14 – 25:15

And what they're doing,

25:16 – 25:17

they're being highly selective

25:17 – 25:19

for nutrition.

25:21 – 25:25

And we have totally blown that

25:25 – 25:26

out of our cattle because,

25:27 – 25:28

you know, we were not,

25:29 – 25:31

we don't, we've blown that herd

25:31 – 25:32

instinct out of them from our

25:32 – 25:33

livestock.

25:34 – 25:35

or stockmanship.

25:37 – 25:40

So once you get that back,

25:41 – 25:42

they completely change their

25:42 – 25:43

grazing habits.

25:44 – 25:46

And one of the things that I I'd

25:47 – 25:50

really like to to figure out why

25:52 – 25:54

when I go into a place and I

25:54 – 25:55

start doing

25:56 – 25:56

a school

25:57 – 25:59

on the third day, and I mean,

25:59 – 26:01

it's like clockwork on the third

26:01 – 26:02

day,

26:02 – 26:03

they start eating things that

26:03 – 26:04

they've ignored.

26:05 – 26:06

They'll start eating things that

26:06 – 26:08

people say, well, they never eat

26:08 – 26:08

that

26:10 – 26:11

spotted

26:12 – 26:13

knapweed or

26:14 – 26:16

spotted knapweed, leafy spurge.

26:17 – 26:18

Um,

26:18 – 26:19

iron weed.

26:19 – 26:22

And I hear people say, Oh, I had

26:22 – 26:23

one guy that, that he was trying

26:23 – 26:25

to tell me that he'd pay me.

26:25 – 26:27

And if I was really an

26:28 – 26:30

evil, greedy son of a gun, I

26:30 – 26:31

would have taken them up on it

26:31 – 26:34

because he told me he'd pay me a

26:34 – 26:35

thousand dollars a head for

26:35 – 26:38

every cow that I could get to

26:38 – 26:39

eat ragweed. And you can bring

26:39 – 26:41

your own cows. Well, I'm just

26:41 – 26:42

cow. I work for everybody else.

26:42 – 26:43

I don't have my own cows.

26:43 – 26:44

I said,

26:44 – 26:45

well, I'll go down and I'll do

26:45 – 26:46

it on yours. And on the third

26:46 – 26:47

day, they'll be eating it.

26:47 – 26:48

And he just got all hooked up

26:48 – 26:49

and he

26:49 – 26:50

You know,

26:49 – 26:51

if I would have, if I would have

26:51 – 26:52

taken him up on that, I would

26:52 – 26:53

have owned his Calvert.

26:54 – 26:55

because that was back when

26:55 – 26:57

prices were down a little bit.

26:59 – 27:01

But there's something in that

27:02 – 27:05

to where it changes where they

27:05 – 27:06

bite on the plant,

27:07 – 27:08

and it changes their timing.

27:08 – 27:09

They're going through.

27:10 – 27:13

Ricky Kremers up in Wyoming,

27:14 – 27:15

actually,

27:15 – 27:16

and this is blowing.

27:17 – 27:18

You

27:20 – 27:21

can only raise these rangelands

27:22 – 27:23

once. You've got to let them

27:23 – 27:24

rest for a year or 18 months.

27:25 – 27:27

And we were talking about this

27:27 – 27:29

deal of the different plants

27:29 – 27:30

coming up at the different

27:30 – 27:31

times. They're grazing for

27:31 – 27:32

nutrition.

27:33 – 27:34

And

27:33 – 27:36

yeah, you might have 10 ,000

27:36 – 27:37

head of bison go through an area

27:38 – 27:39

and they're not going to be back

27:39 – 27:40

for a year or two.

27:41 – 27:42

But you know what?

27:43 – 27:44

Maybe six weeks later,

27:45 – 27:46

you had 10 ,000 elk go through

27:46 – 27:47

the same spot

27:48 – 27:49

at a little bit different angle.

27:50 – 27:52

And then, you know, you might

27:52 – 27:53

have 10 ,000 antelope or a

27:53 – 27:54

thousand deer or whatever.

27:55 – 27:56

These herds were constantly

27:56 – 27:57

crisscrossing and they were

27:57 – 27:59

selecting for what was

28:02 – 28:03

best

28:03 – 28:04

nutrition

28:05 – 28:06

for the time that they were

28:06 – 28:06

crossing.

28:07 – 28:07

Exactly.

28:08 – 28:09

So by using this,

28:09 – 28:11

she's actually set up where

28:11 – 28:12

she's grazing

28:12 – 28:14

half the ranch.

28:14 – 28:15

She gives

28:15 – 28:17

one half the ranch off during

28:17 – 28:18

the growing season.

28:19 – 28:21

The other half she's grazing.

28:22 – 28:23

Well,

28:23 – 28:24

she has

28:25 – 28:26

gotten

28:27 – 28:29

it down to where she's almost

28:29 – 28:30

tripled the size of her cow

28:30 – 28:31

herd.

28:32 – 28:33

Plus she,

28:34 – 28:35

which that sounds impressive

28:35 – 28:36

enough, but

28:37 – 28:38

she brings in

28:39 – 28:42

cows of people that, that they

28:42 – 28:43

run out of grass every year.

28:43 – 28:46

So she brings in 700 cows on top

28:46 – 28:47

of that for three or four months

28:47 – 28:48

in the winter.

28:51 – 28:52

In order to

28:52 – 28:53

do that,

28:53 – 28:55

she's going across that

28:56 – 28:57

other half of the ranch

28:57 – 29:00

three and sometimes four times

29:01 – 29:02

during the year and still

29:02 – 29:04

stockpiling because those cows

29:04 – 29:05

are eating something different

29:05 – 29:06

every time they go through.

29:08 – 29:09

All right. So let's let's talk

29:09 – 29:11

about this. We've been having

29:11 – 29:12

somewhat

29:13 – 29:15

theoretical conversation up to

29:15 – 29:17

this point. And I love this

29:17 – 29:18

conversation, Bob, but

29:18 – 29:19

give us

29:21 – 29:22

Paint us a picture in our

29:22 – 29:23

imagination as well as you're

29:23 – 29:26

able to. If you integrate this

29:27 – 29:30

type of cow movement that you

29:30 – 29:32

are describing where you have

29:32 – 29:33

essentially these murmurations

29:33 – 29:35

of livestock moving across the

29:35 – 29:37

landscape without fencing, only

29:37 – 29:38

picking what is most nutritious

29:38 – 29:39

at a certain point in time,

29:40 – 29:42

what does that look like

29:42 – 29:44

practically? What is the minimum

29:44 – 29:45

herd size that is needed to make

29:45 – 29:46

that work?

29:47 – 29:48

That's what's really cool.

29:49 – 29:51

I had a guy

29:53 – 29:53

29:54 – 29:55

Mississippi, wanted to try it

29:55 – 29:56

back there.

29:56 – 29:57

He had

29:57 – 29:58

five cows

29:59 – 30:00

and 10 ewes.

30:02 – 30:03

And I said, boy, this is going

30:03 – 30:05

to be hard to try to do a school

30:05 – 30:06

on that small a number.

30:07 – 30:09

And so he had a friend of his

30:09 – 30:10

that had 180 head

30:11 – 30:13

and then another guy that had

30:13 – 30:15

another 150, 200 head

30:16 – 30:17

and then one of his neighbors.

30:18 – 30:20

So I was going to rather than

30:20 – 30:22

try to actually go through the

30:22 – 30:23

reboot process, I told him what

30:23 – 30:24

we could do.

30:24 – 30:25

We can go around to these

30:25 – 30:27

different places and work with

30:28 – 30:29

each one of these herds.

30:30 – 30:31

You know, we'll work with yours

30:31 – 30:32

in the morning, we'll go

30:32 – 30:33

somebody else's.

30:34 – 30:36

And then the next day we'll go

30:36 – 30:37

someplace else or we can go back

30:37 – 30:38

and forth.

30:38 – 30:40

And so it's like the one day we

30:40 – 30:41

actually worked with three

30:41 – 30:42

different,

30:42 – 30:44

you know, two of the other herds

30:44 – 30:45

on top of here.

30:46 – 30:48

And when we got there or when I

30:48 – 30:49

got there, of

30:50 – 30:50

course I do have all my

30:50 – 30:51

personalities.

30:52 – 30:52

Uh,

30:52 – 30:53

we,

30:55 – 30:56

you know, I get there and

30:58 – 30:59

we're going to move these cows

30:59 – 31:00

and

31:02 – 31:04

I literally had to run into them

31:04 – 31:05

to get them and push them to get

31:05 – 31:06

them to move.

31:08 – 31:09

They were that dead.

31:09 – 31:10

Whenever he knew needed to move

31:10 – 31:11

and he'd go out there with a

31:11 – 31:12

bucket of feed and he'd move

31:12 – 31:13

them around.

31:15 – 31:16

Well, I started, you know, just

31:16 – 31:17

kind of pushing them and moving

31:17 – 31:20

them. And, and it wound up being

31:20 – 31:21

a really fun week because we're

31:21 – 31:22

going between the other ones.

31:23 – 31:24

And he had a bunch of chickens

31:24 – 31:25

running around and he,

31:26 – 31:27

and I'm trying to explain to

31:27 – 31:28

him. I said,

31:28 – 31:30

all of these, anything that's,

31:30 – 31:31

that's eating. And this is

31:31 – 31:32

something that,

31:33 – 31:35

that I figured out too, is that

31:36 – 31:38

we used to, you know, the cow,

31:38 – 31:40

the sheep and goats used to

31:40 – 31:41

graze together, cows scatter

31:41 – 31:42

out.

31:42 – 31:43

Now, a lot of places you go,

31:43 – 31:44

the sheep and goats are

31:44 – 31:45

scattered out too.

31:45 – 31:48

And, and it's because we used to

31:48 – 31:50

handle sheep and goats one way,

31:50 – 31:52

then we handle cows and other,

31:52 – 31:53

then we just started handling

31:53 – 31:54

everything like cows.

31:55 – 31:56

So he's got this flock of

31:56 – 31:57

chickens over there.

31:57 – 31:58

And I said, you know,

31:58 – 31:59

I said,

31:59 – 32:00

you,

32:01 – 32:02

any animal that,

32:03 – 32:05

that is a grazer or a browser,

32:06 – 32:07

they've all got these same

32:07 – 32:09

instincts. So I started herding

32:09 – 32:09

his chickens around

32:11 – 32:12

and

32:12 – 32:13

I've,

32:13 – 32:15

it works with elk.

32:16 – 32:18

It works with deer,

32:18 – 32:19

antelope,

32:19 – 32:20

kangaroos.

32:21 – 32:22

I even, I even played around

32:22 – 32:23

with an Amy when I was in

32:23 – 32:24

Australia,

32:25 – 32:26

all of this stuff works on the

32:26 – 32:27

same, but, but

32:28 – 32:30

it's the opposite of what our

32:30 – 32:31

minds are is because we're going

32:31 – 32:32

on a predator.

32:33 – 32:34

We've got to put the pressure on

32:34 – 32:35

it. Like we're going to get you.

32:35 – 32:37

And then they move off

32:38 – 32:39

and then.

32:39 – 32:41

we get around it because we're

32:41 – 32:42

going to stop you.

32:42 – 32:43

And

32:43 – 32:46

if you start using their, their

32:46 – 32:47

instincts for,

32:48 – 32:48

okay,

32:49 – 32:50

all I have to do if I'm wanting

32:50 – 32:53

to stop a herd is right up and

32:53 – 32:55

just start kind of, kind of keep

32:55 – 32:56

a straight line and, and drift

32:56 – 32:57

off a little bit.

32:57 – 33:00

And they'll, those ones in the

33:00 – 33:01

front front,

33:01 – 33:03

well, actually you can, you can,

33:05 – 33:06

That's what I usually do,

33:07 – 33:08

because I like keeping my horses

33:08 – 33:08

limber.

33:08 – 33:10

If your horse doesn't have any

33:10 – 33:11

lateral movement, or if you're

33:11 – 33:12

on foot, you can just turn

33:12 – 33:14

around and walk off at about a

33:14 – 33:16

45 degree angle, and those cows

33:16 – 33:17

will stop and look at you.

33:17 – 33:19

You're not having to go up there

33:19 – 33:20

and get the eye or get in front

33:20 – 33:21

of them to block them.

33:22 – 33:24

So we're using all this predator

33:24 – 33:25

stuff on the pressure and

33:25 – 33:26

release.

33:29 – 33:30

And Josh

33:31 – 33:32

Hoy

33:33 – 33:34

coined it. He says, any time

33:34 – 33:35

that you're doing

33:36 – 33:38

pressure and release, he says,

33:38 – 33:40

you're doing reactive.

33:41 – 33:42

You know, oh,

33:42 – 33:43

well, they're doing this.

33:43 – 33:45

I've got to go over and do this.

33:45 – 33:47

And what what we're doing is

33:47 – 33:48

proactive

33:48 – 33:49

and you

33:50 – 33:52

see something start to develop.

33:53 – 33:55

So you just kind of do what you

33:55 – 33:56

need to do to keep it from

33:56 – 33:57

developing,

33:58 – 33:59

if that makes any sense.

34:00 – 34:01

And that's that's kind of hard

34:01 – 34:02

because we

34:04 – 34:05

have a hard time

34:06 – 34:07

popping into this

34:08 – 34:09

paradigm

34:10 – 34:11

because we're

34:12 – 34:12

taught

34:13 – 34:15

from as soon as we start working

34:15 – 34:16

cows, this is where you're

34:16 – 34:17

supposed to do it.

34:17 – 34:19

And what happens is we get that

34:19 – 34:21

so set in our minds

34:21 – 34:22

that

34:23 – 34:24

We can't see that there's

34:24 – 34:26

something else, but it doesn't,

34:26 – 34:27

it just doesn't sound right.

34:29 – 34:31

Yeah. So Bob, let me,

34:32 – 34:34

let me tell you what I'm

34:34 – 34:35

hearing. from you, what I'm

34:35 – 34:36

understanding, and then you

34:36 – 34:38

correct or

34:38 – 34:39

you add the things that I'm

34:39 – 34:41

missing, of which I'm sure there

34:41 – 34:41

are many.

34:42 – 34:43

So what I'm hearing you describe

34:43 – 34:44

is that

34:45 – 34:46

you move cattle

34:47 – 34:49

across a landscape by creating

34:49 – 34:50

murmurations,

34:51 – 34:51

34:52 – 34:55

essentially being proactive

34:55 – 34:58

in guiding cattle with intention

34:58 – 35:00

to the direction that you want

35:00 – 35:01

them to go in.

35:02 – 35:03

and that from a grazing

35:03 – 35:05

management perspective this

35:05 – 35:08

looks like the cattle are just

35:08 – 35:11

they're making multiple passes

35:11 – 35:14

across the field in a season and

35:14 – 35:16

they are at each pass through

35:16 – 35:17

they are taking through what is

35:17 – 35:19

that optimal attrition at that

35:19 – 35:20

moment

35:19 – 35:21

and leaving the rest

35:21 – 35:23

and you

35:23 – 35:25

are bringing them to I remember

35:25 – 35:26

you saying you're bringing them

35:26 – 35:27

to water at a certain time of

35:27 – 35:28

the day a consistent time of day

35:28 – 35:29

you're you're having them all

35:29 – 35:30

ruminated at a consistent time

35:30 – 35:31

of day

35:31 – 35:33

and that combination

35:34 – 35:36

of movement and pattern

35:36 – 35:38

gives you increased forage

35:38 – 35:39

productivity and increased

35:39 – 35:40

yield.

35:40 – 35:41

And also I would expect gives

35:41 – 35:43

you much calmer cattle as well.

35:43 – 35:44

So that's,

35:44 – 35:45

that's what I've gathered from

35:45 – 35:46

you so far.

35:46 – 35:47

It, it, it does.

35:47 – 35:48

The cattle,

35:50 – 35:51

Chris Jorgensen, he was working

35:51 – 35:53

for, for MASHTO when,

35:53 – 35:55

when I worked with him the first

35:55 – 35:55

time.

35:56 – 35:58

And he told me later on that

35:58 – 35:59

winter, he goes, you know,

36:01 – 36:02

my cattle have always been

36:02 – 36:03

gentle. I always get them gentle

36:03 – 36:05

down and they handle good.

36:05 – 36:07

And I thought that.

36:07 – 36:09

that they were pretty stress

36:09 – 36:10

-free, but he says,

36:10 – 36:12

I never knew what stress -free

36:12 – 36:15

cattle truly looked like until I

36:16 – 36:17

started doing this.

36:18 – 36:20

And that's something else, too,

36:20 – 36:20

that we've got to,

36:22 – 36:24

or we don't have to, but it's

36:24 – 36:25

probably beneficial to.

36:27 – 36:28

The number one,

36:29 – 36:30

you know, everybody's saying,

36:30 – 36:32

oh, look, my cows, they're fine,

36:32 – 36:33

they're out there, they got

36:33 – 36:33

their heads down, they're

36:33 – 36:34

eating,

36:34 – 36:36

they don't have any stress.

36:37 – 36:38

Well, the number one

36:39 – 36:42

comment from people who've had a

36:42 – 36:44

friend or family member commit

36:44 – 36:46

suicide is they never had a

36:46 – 36:47

clue.

36:48 – 36:50

So if you don't have a clue that

36:50 – 36:52

a close friend or a family

36:52 – 36:53

member is

36:53 – 36:55

stressed out enough to kill

36:55 – 36:56

himself,

36:57 – 36:59

How can you look, how can you

36:59 – 37:00

say that you can look at a bunch

37:00 – 37:01

of cows and say they're not

37:01 – 37:02

stressed?

37:04 – 37:06

Because it's a different, you

37:06 – 37:07

know, it's the,

37:08 – 37:09

they will,

37:09 – 37:10

I mean, when they,

37:12 – 37:13

when you go and you've got your

37:13 – 37:15

cattle and you're scattered out

37:15 – 37:15

and,

37:16 – 37:17

and they

37:17 – 37:18

go to bed

37:18 – 37:20

down to ruminate and you say,

37:20 – 37:21

you got a group of 10 and

37:22 – 37:23

they're laying down together and

37:23 – 37:24

they will lay down in exactly

37:24 – 37:26

the same place every day.

37:27 – 37:28

Well, when you get these

37:29 – 37:30

animals rebooted,

37:30 – 37:32

they don't like laying down on

37:32 – 37:34

their same manure every day.

37:36 – 37:37

and they will go to a different

37:37 – 37:38

spot,

37:38 – 37:39

and

37:40 – 37:42

it'll be in the same area, but a

37:42 – 37:42

different spot.

37:45 – 37:47

Fernando Falomir, I don't know

37:47 – 37:47

if you've heard of him.

37:48 – 37:49

He's the

37:50 – 37:52

grazing consultant for

37:52 – 37:53

Understanding Ag.

37:53 – 37:56

He went to the first school I

37:56 – 37:58

did in Mexico for Alejandro

37:58 – 37:59

Carrillos,

38:00 – 38:01

and

38:01 – 38:02

his cows

38:03 – 38:04

would

38:04 – 38:06

graze, and then when they bed

38:06 – 38:07

down at night,

38:08 – 38:10

they've got a lot of brush down

38:10 – 38:11

there, so instead of being in

38:11 – 38:13

the brush or bed down on the

38:13 – 38:14

grass,

38:14 – 38:16

They would go up just past the

38:16 – 38:18

edge of the grass and bed down

38:18 – 38:19

on bare ground.

38:21 – 38:22

Well, they get up and, you know,

38:22 – 38:23

they've got

38:23 – 38:25

they've got cow pies.

38:25 – 38:26

and urine spots three

38:27 – 38:28

foot apart.

38:29 – 38:30

Well, that mycorrhizal fungi can

38:30 – 38:31

travel 12,

38:32 – 38:33

you know, or six,

38:33 – 38:34

six to nine feet.

38:34 – 38:37

So you're looking at you've got

38:37 – 38:39

to you just created a big web of

38:39 – 38:40

fertility.

38:41 – 38:42

Well, the next night they come

38:42 – 38:43

up there and they don't lay down

38:43 – 38:44

in that same spot.

38:44 – 38:45

They lay down right next to it.

38:46 – 38:49

And he had and like a lot of the

38:49 – 38:51

country does in northern Mexico

38:51 – 38:53

and all across the southwest,

38:53 – 38:55

there's volunteer Bermuda.

38:55 – 38:56

all over West Texas,

38:57 – 38:58

but it's never very thick or

38:58 – 38:59

very...

38:59 – 39:01

He has

39:02 – 39:05

thousands of acres that he has

39:05 – 39:07

created that's, you know, it's

39:07 – 39:08

diverse, but it's predominantly

39:08 – 39:10

Bermuda because those cows would

39:10 – 39:11

lay down like that.

39:12 – 39:13

And then as soon as it gets

39:13 – 39:14

moisture, it's shooting out

39:14 – 39:16

rhizomes and runners up, boom,

39:17 – 39:18

and it covers it.

39:19 – 39:21

And that is something that, you

39:21 – 39:22

know,

39:22 – 39:24

when you're doing your fences,

39:25 – 39:26

you're not getting that with the

39:26 – 39:27

fences.

39:26 – 39:28

You're not getting that when

39:28 – 39:29

you're using the

39:30 – 39:31

The beach bum fencing, you're

39:31 – 39:32

not getting it.

39:32 – 39:35

Then there's all of these things

39:35 – 39:36

that the cows will do naturally

39:36 – 39:37

on their own.

39:38 – 39:39

Don't do it when you're keeping

39:39 – 39:40

them,

39:41 – 39:42

you know, from, from just

39:42 – 39:43

naturally doing what they're

39:43 – 39:45

doing, you know, you're forcing

39:45 – 39:45

them into that.

39:46 – 39:47

And

39:47 – 39:49

if you watch a lot of videos

39:49 – 39:50

where

39:50 – 39:52

people are making pasture moves

39:53 – 39:54

and I

39:55 – 39:56

mean, they go through that,

39:56 – 39:57

they're all at the gate and

39:57 – 39:58

they're balling.

39:57 – 39:59

So if they're at the gate and

39:59 – 40:00

they're balling or they're,

40:00 – 40:01

they're just standing there at

40:01 – 40:02

the gate, that's waiting for you

40:02 – 40:03

to get there.

40:03 – 40:04

They're stressed out because

40:04 – 40:05

they're wanting to get fresh

40:05 – 40:06

feet.

40:07 – 40:09

And then when they turn out,

40:11 – 40:12

what happens is, you know, if

40:12 – 40:13

they've got them like in a five

40:13 – 40:14

acre or

40:14 – 40:16

two acre, whatever size, you

40:16 – 40:17

know, small bill, and they've

40:17 – 40:18

got 500 cows,

40:19 – 40:21

those cows fan out and bounce

40:21 – 40:22

off the fences and then come

40:22 – 40:23

back.

40:24 – 40:26

That isn't relaxed behavior.

40:27 – 40:28

And it's, and it's not

40:29 – 40:30

creating, you know,

40:32 – 40:34

if they're stressed, they're not

40:35 – 40:37

performing as well.

40:40 – 40:41

What degree of human presence is

40:41 – 40:44

required to get cattle to behave

40:44 – 40:46

in this way and maintain their

40:46 – 40:47

behavior?

40:49 – 40:49

You know, there again, you got

40:49 – 40:51

to go on context because

40:51 – 40:53

You know, you get an area of

40:53 – 40:56

rolling hills or flat ground.

40:56 – 40:57

And

40:57 – 40:58

40:59 – 41:01

actually had a little group of

41:01 – 41:02

cows going for this hunting

41:02 – 41:03

ranch that had like 50 cows.

41:04 – 41:06

And but they were on like 30

41:06 – 41:07

sections.

41:08 – 41:10

I went to Australia for three

41:10 – 41:11

months, came back and they were

41:11 – 41:12

still together.

41:14 – 41:15

Pedro called Rone.

41:15 – 41:17

He's kind of my my protege.

41:18 – 41:20

He's managing the bison herd for

41:20 – 41:20

American Prairie.

41:21 – 41:23

And he's seen the same thing

41:24 – 41:26

that up to three months and

41:26 – 41:27

they'll still be together.

41:28 – 41:29

But if a person goes out there

41:29 – 41:30

and starts handling them

41:30 – 41:32

conventionally, they'll break up

41:32 – 41:32

real fast too.

41:33 – 41:34

Or if you just,

41:35 – 41:37

you know, like that place,

41:38 – 41:39

they were putting out deer feed

41:39 – 41:41

and they get down to the bottom

41:41 – 41:42

of the load and they get all

41:42 – 41:43

the, you know, all the crumbs,

41:43 – 41:45

all the fines, and they would go

41:45 – 41:47

out there and they had some

41:47 – 41:48

feeders set up and they would go

41:48 – 41:49

out there and they would honk

41:49 – 41:50

the horns.

41:50 – 41:51

I could tell

41:52 – 41:54

every time they did that,

41:54 – 41:55

just because of the fact that

41:55 – 41:56

when I got there, those cattle

41:56 – 41:57

would be scattered out.

41:59 – 42:00

just from the stress of that.

42:00 – 42:01

And I'd go out and I'd ride on

42:01 – 42:02

once and the next week they'd be

42:02 – 42:04

back together because it was

42:04 – 42:06

just a one -time event and it's

42:06 – 42:07

easy to put back together.

42:09 – 42:11

But this got me to thinking

42:11 – 42:12

on...

42:14 – 42:15

Let me just clarify.

42:15 – 42:16

something you just said.

42:16 – 42:17

You said you would write on them

42:17 – 42:18

once so you could recreate their

42:18 – 42:20

original pattern of behavior,

42:20 – 42:21

which is a single day of

42:21 – 42:21

presence.

42:23 – 42:25

And it's not, it's not like a

42:25 – 42:27

single day of going all day,

42:27 – 42:28

right?

42:28 – 42:30

Because what, what you do when

42:30 – 42:32

you, you put them back together,

42:32 – 42:33

you'll pick them up, put them

42:33 – 42:35

together and, and take them

42:35 – 42:37

someplace and then just

42:37 – 42:39

slow down and let them start

42:39 – 42:40

raising together.

42:40 – 42:41

And then you write off.

42:41 – 42:42

You don't.

42:43 – 42:44

the thing about this is you're

42:44 – 42:45

making it to

42:46 – 42:47

where it's their choice to be

42:47 – 42:48

together.

42:49 – 42:50

You know, when they did the roe

42:50 – 42:50

deer project,

42:51 – 42:52

uh, they,

42:54 – 42:56

and alder spring ranches is

42:56 – 42:57

doing the same thing where

42:57 – 42:58

they've got the herders.

42:59 – 42:59

And,

42:59 – 43:01

and they, they said that they,

43:01 – 43:02

they tried doing what I do and

43:02 – 43:03

they couldn't get it done.

43:03 – 43:04

And,

43:04 – 43:05

and it's like,

43:05 – 43:06

they're taking all the cattle

43:06 – 43:08

down, like at eight o 'clock in

43:08 – 43:08

the morning where they want the

43:08 – 43:09

cattle to be at water

43:10 – 43:12

at 10 o 'clock, they got to go

43:12 – 43:15

out. Well, the natural cycle is

43:15 – 43:15

they will,

43:15 – 43:16

they will depending on the

43:16 – 43:18

amount of feed and how long it

43:18 – 43:19

takes them to get filled up.

43:19 – 43:21

They'll graze for four hours and

43:22 – 43:24

then they'll ruminate for four

43:24 – 43:25

hours and then they go back out.

43:25 – 43:26

So when you're

43:26 – 43:28

when you're forcing that issue,

43:28 – 43:30

they can't relax enough

43:30 – 43:32

to come together as a herd.

43:34 – 43:37

And I started doing something

43:37 – 43:38

was

43:40 – 43:41

the Circle Ranch down here.

43:42 – 43:43

Chris Gill had it.

43:43 – 43:44

They were

43:44 – 43:45

big into the holistic

43:45 – 43:46

management.

43:47 – 43:49

And what I started doing is we

43:49 – 43:51

had a set of heifers from

43:51 – 43:53

King Ranch.

43:54 – 43:55

And

43:55 – 43:57

rather than going out and

43:59 – 44:00

calling the cattle in,

44:01 – 44:02

I asked the foreman if he would

44:02 – 44:04

start going out and

44:04 – 44:05

putting

44:06 – 44:07

the cake down,

44:08 – 44:09

you know, at a predetermined

44:09 – 44:10

deal. And I would just say, out

44:10 – 44:11

and I would bring the herd to

44:11 – 44:12

them.

44:12 – 44:13

They never learned that that

44:13 – 44:14

feed truck was there.

44:15 – 44:17

And what I did is I had them,

44:17 – 44:19

you could do one or two things,

44:19 – 44:21

either start and make spiral out

44:22 – 44:25

and, or take and make equal

44:25 – 44:27

lines of, you know, three or

44:27 – 44:28

four lines of equal length.

44:29 – 44:30

And when

44:31 – 44:33

you bring the cattle into that,

44:35 – 44:36

they just fan out and put your

44:36 – 44:37

heads down and they start

44:37 – 44:38

eating.

44:39 – 44:40

As versus with a feed truck,

44:40 – 44:41

boy, they're all hyped up and

44:41 – 44:42

they're running up to the truck.

44:42 – 44:44

Then they're fighting up to

44:44 – 44:45

around the truck while you're

44:45 – 44:47

waiting for everything to get in

44:47 – 44:48

before you start putting out the

44:48 – 44:49

feed.

44:49 – 44:50

And that adds

44:51 – 44:54

a half a pound a day to

44:55 – 44:56

the gain on those heifers.

44:56 – 44:57

Wow.

45:01 – 45:02

You know, and people go, well,

45:02 – 45:03

that, that just seems like

45:03 – 45:04

that's a lot of work.

45:04 – 45:05

But

45:06 – 45:07

the thing you have to realize is

45:07 – 45:09

these cattle handle so easily

45:10 – 45:11

that you can put them out over

45:11 – 45:13

there a half mile away

45:14 – 45:14

and.

45:15 – 45:16

move your truck and then just go

45:16 – 45:17

trotting over to where you're,

45:17 – 45:18

you know, cause you're going to

45:18 – 45:19

have a good idea of where those

45:19 – 45:20

cattle are when you're taking

45:20 – 45:21

them a couple of times a week.

45:22 – 45:23

You ride out there and you, you

45:23 – 45:24

ride against them.

45:24 – 45:25

This is the other thing.

45:25 – 45:26

We don't push them.

45:27 – 45:29

We ride up to them at an angle

45:29 – 45:30

that asks them to go by us.

45:30 – 45:32

They go by us. You just kind of

45:32 – 45:33

ride along with them

45:33 – 45:34

and you

45:35 – 45:36

don't even have to be able to

45:36 – 45:37

see that feed. You can tell when

45:37 – 45:39

that first cow hits the feed

45:39 – 45:40

after the second or third time

45:40 – 45:41

you feed them,

45:41 – 45:42

because it's just like an

45:42 – 45:43

electric truck.

45:43 – 45:45

The one clear at the back knows

45:45 – 45:46

that they're there.

45:46 – 45:47

They all line out, run and buck

45:47 – 45:48

and play.

45:48 – 45:49

Bob,

45:53 – 45:55

the one question that comes to

45:55 – 45:56

mind, you mentioned that you

45:56 – 45:57

you've had a class in Missouri

45:57 – 45:59

and you have this rich

45:59 – 46:00

experience in Mississippi,

46:02 – 46:04

rich experience in different

46:04 – 46:05

ecosystems and environments.

46:06 – 46:09

The one question that I have,

46:09 – 46:11

many of the people that where I

46:11 – 46:12

live here in Ohio, we're in a

46:12 – 46:14

high rainfall environment, 40,

46:14 – 46:15

50 inches of rainfall a year.

46:17 – 46:18

And

46:19 – 46:20

forage can go,

46:20 – 46:22

particularly in the fall, if we

46:22 – 46:24

have an open wet fall,

46:25 – 46:27

forage can go from decent

46:27 – 46:28

quality to nutrition,

46:28 – 46:30

nutritional value to mulch.

46:31 – 46:33

in a matter of sometimes a

46:33 – 46:35

couple of weeks with rainfall

46:35 – 46:36

and moisture and everything

46:36 – 46:37

else.

46:38 – 46:38

And

46:39 – 46:40

also then in the season,

46:41 – 46:44

you have all of these different

46:44 – 46:45

forbs and plants coming to

46:45 – 46:47

nutritional optimums quite

46:47 – 46:49

rapidly, I would expect,

46:49 – 46:51

comparatively rapidly compared

46:51 – 46:52

to drier environments.

46:53 – 46:56

How do we adapt to

46:56 – 46:57

that context?

47:01 – 47:03

You're not going to really be

47:03 – 47:05

able to get around that unless

47:05 – 47:06

you could possibly get more

47:06 – 47:07

cattle in.

47:08 – 47:10

But if you, if you get the right

47:10 – 47:12

type of supplement,

47:12 – 47:13

you know,

47:13 – 47:14

high carb supplement,

47:15 – 47:16

uh,

47:17 – 47:18

where they can digest that,

47:19 – 47:20

then you can, you can get out

47:20 – 47:22

your grazing season longer.

47:22 – 47:24

I mean, they had the bison were

47:24 – 47:26

clear back to Ohio and they were

47:26 – 47:27

in Pennsylvania.

47:27 – 47:28

Yeah.

47:28 – 47:30

You know, elk were clear to the

47:30 – 47:31

East coast.

47:31 – 47:32

47:32 – 47:35

if all of these animals could

47:37 – 47:38

survive in that,

47:39 – 47:40

then why are we having to feed

47:40 – 47:41

so many supplements and stuff?

47:43 – 47:45

And part of this is

47:46 – 47:46

because

47:47 – 47:49

we're calving out at the wrong

47:49 – 47:50

time of year, because we've got

47:50 – 47:51

to be able to go out there and

47:51 – 47:52

make hay.

47:53 – 47:55

Because there's

47:55 – 47:56

a natural

47:57 – 47:59

way that their weight goes.

47:59 – 48:00

you know, they'll

48:00 – 48:02

go through the winter and

48:02 – 48:03

they're going to lose weight.

48:03 – 48:04

They're going to, you know,

48:03 – 48:04

they're going to lose some

48:04 – 48:05

weight during the winter.

48:05 – 48:06

Then,

48:06 – 48:07

you know, you get that spring

48:07 – 48:10

flush coming on and they gain it

48:10 – 48:11

back pretty, pretty rapidly.

48:12 – 48:13

Then they give birth

48:13 – 48:16

and they raise that animal and

48:16 – 48:17

wean it right.

48:17 – 48:18

You know,

48:18 – 48:20

that nutrition is going down and

48:20 – 48:21

they just keep going through

48:21 – 48:21

that cycle.

48:22 – 48:24

And we have this deal where we

48:24 – 48:25

think that we need to keep them,

48:25 – 48:26

you know, at,

48:26 – 48:27

at,

48:27 – 48:30

peak optimum nutrition all year

48:30 – 48:30

long.

48:32 – 48:33

And I

48:34 – 48:36

had a guy I worked with in

48:36 – 48:37

Montana, he wound up going to

48:37 – 48:38

the Ricks Ranch,

48:39 – 48:41

and he said that when

48:41 – 48:43

they changed their calving date

48:45 – 48:47

and quit feeding,

48:48 – 48:49

that it dropped their overall

48:49 – 48:50

cost

48:51 – 48:52

by 50%.

48:55 – 48:56

And how did it impact

48:56 – 48:57

profitability?

48:59 – 49:00

49:00 – 49:01

said that they

49:02 – 49:03

calved later,

49:05 – 49:05

but they weaned

49:06 – 49:07

on the same day.

49:08 – 49:10

And it only made 10 pounds a

49:10 – 49:11

head difference.

49:13 – 49:14

49:15 – 49:16

can take, you can take a 10

49:16 – 49:17

pound drop in that.

49:17 – 49:19

If you can, if you can take out

49:19 – 49:20

half of your 50 % cost

49:20 – 49:22

reduction, my goodness,

49:22 – 49:24

you know, and, and I

49:24 – 49:25

worked for Leachman cattle

49:25 – 49:28

company for well from about 91

49:28 – 49:31

to 95 or 92 to 95 right in there

49:31 – 49:32

someplace.

49:33 – 49:33

But

49:36 – 49:38

people talk about the registered

49:38 – 49:39

cattle, you know, they, they,

49:40 – 49:41

They put them on so many

49:41 – 49:42

crutches. Now he, he did, of

49:42 – 49:44

course, he put all of his, his

49:44 – 49:45

ones going for the sale were

49:45 – 49:46

heifers and bulls went in the

49:46 – 49:47

feedlot,

49:47 – 49:50

but his cows, he ran them tough

49:50 – 49:51

as tough as

49:51 – 49:53

any commercial operator I've

49:53 – 49:54

seen.

49:55 – 49:58

He put them on, he had them on

49:58 – 50:00

wheat stalks after they weaned,

50:00 – 50:03

and then they started,

50:03 – 50:04

you know, they'd

50:05 – 50:06

go ahead and

50:06 – 50:09

bring in the heavies into the

50:09 – 50:10

calving pastures, bringers into

50:10 – 50:11

the calving pasture.

50:12 – 50:14

That calving pasture was just

50:14 – 50:15

native grass,

50:16 – 50:18

and they would put up on these

50:18 – 50:20

ridges, they'd make windbreaks

50:20 – 50:22

out of six straw bales, just

50:22 – 50:24

stack them up too high and they

50:24 – 50:25

would scatter some protein

50:25 – 50:26

blocks around them.

50:26 – 50:28

And when the storms came in,

50:28 – 50:29

they couldn't get to the cattle.

50:29 – 50:31

Cattle just got up around those,

50:31 – 50:32

uh,

50:33 – 50:35

those hay, those straw bales and

50:35 – 50:37

they ate straw and protein

50:37 – 50:37

block.

50:38 – 50:39

And that's how they made it

50:39 – 50:40

through the winter on a

50:40 – 50:41

registered outfit.

50:41 – 50:43

So those were some, you know,

50:43 – 50:44

in reality, those were some

50:45 – 50:47

pretty good doing cows for

50:47 – 50:49

being run the way they were as a

50:49 – 50:50

registered outfit.

50:53 – 50:54

Something you said earlier

50:54 – 50:55

really

50:56 – 50:57

stuck with me

50:58 – 50:59

and that was.

51:00 – 51:02

The phrase that, this is my

51:02 – 51:03

paraphrasing, but essentially

51:03 – 51:05

having a predator's mindset

51:05 – 51:06

versus,

51:07 – 51:09

I'll use the phrase a shepherd's

51:09 – 51:11

mindset of being a collaborator

51:11 – 51:13

with the herd instead of,

51:13 – 51:14

and shepherd can also have

51:14 – 51:15

different meanings, but

51:16 – 51:17

being

51:17 – 51:18

a collaborator with

51:19 – 51:21

or a guide rather than

51:21 – 51:24

engaging in that predatorial way

51:24 – 51:26

and kind of a subconscious place

51:26 – 51:27

that we come from within.

51:27 – 51:28

You know, it reminds me of one

51:28 – 51:29

of my favorite quotes

51:30 – 51:30

51:32 – 51:34

Otto Scharmer popularized it,

51:34 – 51:35

but it was a business leader

51:35 – 51:36

named Bill O 'Brien who first

51:36 – 51:37

put the quote together.

51:37 – 51:39

He said, the outcome of an

51:39 – 51:40

intervention has

51:41 – 51:43

nothing to do with the

51:43 – 51:44

skills or the ability of the

51:44 – 51:45

intervener.

51:45 – 51:47

It has everything to do with the

51:47 – 51:48

place within from which the

51:48 – 51:49

intervener comes.

51:50 – 51:51

And of course, he was talking

51:51 – 51:53

about human interventions or in

51:53 – 51:54

human organizations when

51:55 – 51:56

we try to get people to change

51:56 – 51:58

their minds or go in a different

51:58 – 51:58

direction.

52:00 – 52:02

And there is a degree of what

52:02 – 52:03

you're describing that is very

52:03 – 52:04

similar. It's the place that we

52:04 – 52:05

come from within.

52:06 – 52:07

And so within

52:07 – 52:09

that context, I'd love to get

52:09 – 52:10

your perspective or even just

52:10 – 52:12

more broadly in any way you want

52:12 – 52:13

to answer the question.

52:13 – 52:14

What are the what

52:14 – 52:15

are the common

52:16 – 52:17

I don't know if mistakes is the

52:17 – 52:19

right word, but the common

52:19 – 52:20

stumbling blocks that you see

52:20 – 52:21

people encounter that they have

52:21 – 52:23

a difficult time getting past.

52:25 – 52:28

OK, that goes back to the

52:29 – 52:31

basic human psychology,

52:32 – 52:32

how we learn.

52:33 – 52:34

And I mean,

52:36 – 52:37

life is basically one long

52:37 – 52:40

indoctrination process from the

52:40 – 52:41

time we're born.

52:42 – 52:42

I mean,

52:42 – 52:43

think about it.

52:43 – 52:45

You're you're told what you got

52:45 – 52:46

to think about religion.

52:46 – 52:47

You're told what you got to

52:47 – 52:48

think about

52:48 – 52:50

treating how you treat other

52:50 – 52:51

people, how you treat animals.

52:52 – 52:54

You know, you're when it gets

52:54 – 52:57

into into ranching and

52:57 – 52:59

stockmanship You're told what

52:59 – 53:00

you need to do to these animals

53:00 – 53:01

to get them to do what you want

53:01 – 53:03

them to do So you've got all of

53:03 – 53:05

this is buried in your mind.

53:05 – 53:06

53:07 – 53:08

somebody comes along says, you

53:08 – 53:10

know There's a different way

53:10 – 53:11

that you can do this

53:12 – 53:14

and you haven't seen anything

53:14 – 53:16

close to that They're gonna look

53:16 – 53:17

at you and say you're crazy,

53:18 – 53:20

you know We've been taught all

53:20 – 53:21

the way through life

53:22 – 53:24

and even going into into school

53:24 – 53:26

you go to college and and it's

53:27 – 53:28

53:29 – 53:30

Instead of going to college,

53:30 – 53:32

I bought all the textbooks and I

53:32 – 53:33

read them.

53:33 – 53:35

And that way, you know, if you

53:35 – 53:36

go to, if you go to school

53:37 – 53:39

and you learn, this is how you

53:39 – 53:40

have to do it. Okay.

53:41 – 53:42

You're not allowed to think

53:43 – 53:44

that doesn't sound right.

53:44 – 53:45

That's wrong.

53:45 – 53:47

because if you do that,

53:47 – 53:48

you don't get a good enough

53:48 – 53:50

grade to get that piece of paper

53:50 – 53:51

that says, I'm smart and went to

53:51 – 53:52

college.

53:54 – 53:55

I have to tell you, and the way

53:55 – 53:56

you brought that up, I have to

53:56 – 53:57

tell you about an experience

53:57 – 53:58

that I had that really kind

53:59 – 54:01

of put me over the edge in some

54:01 – 54:03

regards to modern education.

54:06 – 54:07

I only have an eighth grade

54:07 – 54:08

formal education,

54:09 – 54:10

and like you, I got a lot of

54:10 – 54:11

books, I had access to a really

54:11 – 54:12

great library.

54:14 – 54:15

And what really put me over the

54:15 – 54:18

edge is I bought or borrowed

54:18 – 54:18

54:19 – 54:21

I forget, but it was, it was a

54:21 – 54:22

senior level

54:22 – 54:25

physics textbook that was used

54:25 – 54:26

to teach physics at the college

54:26 – 54:27

level.

54:27 – 54:29

And I worked my way through that

54:29 – 54:30

book

54:30 – 54:31

very laboriously.

54:32 – 54:32

It was hard work.

54:32 – 54:34

I had to study and read, and I

54:34 – 54:36

spent a lot of time with it.

54:37 – 54:39

And I got to the last page and

54:39 – 54:40

the last page says

54:40 – 54:41

something to the effect, I'm

54:41 – 54:42

paraphrasing it a bit, but

54:42 – 54:43

something to the effect of

54:44 – 54:45

we now understand

54:46 – 54:48

that everything we thought to be

54:48 – 54:50

true about physics, we now

54:50 – 54:51

understand is false.

54:51 – 54:52

And that everything you've just

54:52 – 54:53

learned in this book is

54:53 – 54:55

incorrect, but we don't know any

54:55 – 54:56

other way of teaching it.

54:56 – 54:57

So we're still teaching you the

54:57 – 54:58

incorrect way

54:58 – 55:01

that that book left a dent in

55:01 – 55:02

the drywall in my bedroom.

55:06 – 55:08

Well, it's at least we were

55:08 – 55:09

honest about it.

55:10 – 55:11

Okay. Why?

55:11 – 55:13

I had experienced like that in

55:13 – 55:14

high school.

55:15 – 55:16

My, the first

55:18 – 55:20

chapter of our,

55:21 – 55:22

biology book,

55:23 – 55:24

you know, it's talking about

55:24 – 55:25

grazing animals and browsing

55:25 – 55:26

animals and, you know,

55:27 – 55:29

deer and elk, they, they prefer

55:29 – 55:31

brushes and twigs where

55:31 – 55:33

cows prefer grasses and legumes.

55:33 – 55:34

And it's like,

55:36 – 55:37

if that were true,

55:37 – 55:39

how can we see all these deer

55:39 – 55:41

down and people alfalfa fields?

55:42 – 55:43

Exactly. You know, why do you

55:43 – 55:45

see cows quit chasing grass and

55:45 – 55:47

go chasing those pine nuts and

55:47 – 55:47

acorns?

55:48 – 55:49

You know, and we get into this

55:49 – 55:51

discussion and, and wound up

55:51 – 55:52

taking the whole class and I

55:52 – 55:54

wound up, I got a D.

55:54 – 55:55

Um,

55:56 – 55:58

then we had general science and

55:58 – 55:59

the teacher goes through, and

55:59 – 56:00

this was in the,

56:01 – 56:02

mind you, I graduated, this was

56:02 – 56:04

like 69 or 70

56:05 – 56:07

and before they found out about

56:07 – 56:08

quarks and particles,

56:08 – 56:09

but,

56:10 – 56:12

They teach us macrophysics and

56:12 – 56:14

infinity. It goes on forever.

56:14 – 56:15

And then they go into the

56:15 – 56:16

microphysics and they go, OK,

56:16 – 56:17

this is proton, neutron,

56:17 – 56:19

electron. And that's as small as

56:19 – 56:20

the things that there are.

56:22 – 56:24

My brain doesn't work that way.

56:24 – 56:25

You know, no,

56:25 – 56:26

everything has parts.

56:26 – 56:27

What's the parts of those?

56:28 – 56:30

And we get it. Again, I take the

56:30 – 56:32

whole day class and get a D

56:32 – 56:34

because

56:34 – 56:37

it's I couldn't see that.

56:37 – 56:38

Well,

56:38 – 56:40

oh, in my 20s, I stumbled onto a

56:40 – 56:42

book called The Tao of Physics.

56:44 – 56:45

and they're talking about the

56:45 – 56:47

quarks and the particles and all

56:47 – 56:48

of this stuff.

56:49 – 56:50

But the odd thing about that

56:50 – 56:52

book is the way it's written.

56:52 – 56:54

And it is a hard read,

56:56 – 56:56

but

56:57 – 56:58

it's

56:59 – 57:00

astrophysicists

57:01 – 57:03

that are looking at things

57:03 – 57:06

through electron microscopes and

57:06 – 57:07

relating what

57:07 – 57:09

they're seeing and the

57:09 – 57:11

descriptions these scientists

57:11 – 57:12

are giving about what they're

57:12 – 57:12

seeing

57:13 – 57:14

with Confucius and all these

57:14 – 57:16

different philosophers that

57:17 – 57:19

their descriptions of things

57:19 – 57:21

thousands of years ago, or just

57:21 – 57:22

what they're seeing in this,

57:22 – 57:23

that they spent, you

57:23 – 57:24

know,

57:24 – 57:26

billions, billions of dollars

57:26 – 57:27

trying

57:27 – 57:28

to figure this out.

57:29 – 57:30

And here's this old guy sitting

57:30 – 57:32

up on the mountaintop 2 ,000, 3

57:32 – 57:33

,000 years ago, already had it

57:33 – 57:34

figured out.

57:35 – 57:37

We just don't know how it goes.

57:37 – 57:39

And I don't think we ever will

57:39 – 57:41

ever will figure out exactly how

57:41 – 57:42

it goes.

57:42 – 57:43

But

57:43 – 57:45

knowing that all these, you

57:45 – 57:46

know, Roger Savory and Alan

57:46 – 57:47

Savory, they talk about holes.

57:48 – 57:49

Well,

57:49 – 57:51

you've got the holes, but

57:51 – 57:52

there's holes within the holes

57:52 – 57:53

within the holes.

57:55 – 57:56

So, you know, we

57:57 – 58:00

and I don't know if how many

58:00 – 58:02

people are actually willing and

58:02 – 58:05

able to to look at it for you're

58:05 – 58:06

seeing

58:06 – 58:07

what you're doing with your

58:07 – 58:08

horses affecting this cows in

58:08 – 58:10

this way, that's affecting this

58:10 – 58:12

grass in this way, which in turn

58:12 – 58:13

affects the

58:14 – 58:15

soil.

58:15 – 58:16

And the soil has

58:16 – 58:18

all of its components that were

58:18 – 58:20

it's it's all it's all

58:20 – 58:21

interconnected.

58:22 – 58:23

And

58:23 – 58:25

if we have these cows for

58:25 – 58:27

they're going through and

58:27 – 58:28

keeping that connection right,

58:29 – 58:30

then we build grass.

58:30 – 58:31

We don't just build grass.

58:31 – 58:33

We're building diversity of life

58:34 – 58:35

on top of the ground and under

58:35 – 58:36

the ground.

58:36 – 58:38

If we do the opposite,

58:38 – 58:40

And we don't let them function

58:40 – 58:41

the way they should.

58:41 – 58:42

Well, then it goes the opposite

58:42 – 58:43

way.

58:44 – 58:45

But we don't need all of these

58:45 – 58:47

fences and stuff to get that

58:47 – 58:47

done.

58:49 – 58:50

Yeah.

58:50 – 58:51

So, Bob, we went down this

58:51 – 58:54

interesting rabbit trail, if you

58:54 – 58:55

will.

58:54 – 58:56

I interrupted you at one point

58:56 – 58:58

earlier. I was I started asking

58:58 – 58:58

you about

58:58 – 59:02

common mistakes or missteps that

59:02 – 59:04

people might make and the place.

59:04 – 59:06

Well, that's see, that's all

59:06 – 59:08

related because we get used to

59:08 – 59:08

doing this that way.

59:09 – 59:10

And

59:12 – 59:14

what they do is they go, oh, I

59:14 – 59:15

got this.

59:15 – 59:16

And they go to do it.

59:16 – 59:17

Well,

59:18 – 59:19

we're doing things

59:20 – 59:21

and we can be thinking we're

59:21 – 59:22

doing one thing

59:23 – 59:24

and we're not even close.

59:26 – 59:27

You

59:28 – 59:29

can be doing something.

59:29 – 59:30

that's really a good thing

59:31 – 59:32

and not even know you're doing

59:32 – 59:33

it.

59:33 – 59:35

Or you don't have any idea of

59:35 – 59:35

how you're doing it.

59:36 – 59:37

59:37 – 59:39

had a guy that had me riding

59:39 – 59:40

this horse of his that was a

59:40 – 59:42

bronc. He'd been bucking,

59:42 – 59:43

bucked his trainer off for 90

59:43 – 59:45

days. He got on it once and

59:45 – 59:46

bucked him off and his wife

59:46 – 59:47

wouldn't let him ride it.

59:47 – 59:48

So I

59:49 – 59:50

go over to his place and I'm

59:50 – 59:51

riding, he comes in for lunch

59:51 – 59:52

and he goes,

59:52 – 59:53

how are you two tracking that

59:53 – 59:54

horse?

59:55 – 59:56

Well, when you're two tracking a

59:56 – 59:57

horse,

59:57 – 59:58

You've got got their shoulder

59:58 – 1:00:00

will be set one way and you're

1:00:00 – 1:00:01

leaving two sets of tracks going

1:00:01 – 1:00:03

down down to the arena.

1:00:03 – 1:00:04

And I was doing that around the

1:00:04 – 1:00:05

corners.

1:00:05 – 1:00:06

And he goes, well, how are you

1:00:06 – 1:00:07

to track and help to get the

1:00:07 – 1:00:09

horse to track and so fast?

1:00:09 – 1:00:10

And I go, what do you mean?

1:00:13 – 1:00:14

He goes, well, to track.

1:00:14 – 1:00:15

And you were just doing it.

1:00:15 – 1:00:16

What do you mean?

1:00:16 – 1:00:17

You don't. I said, honestly, I

1:00:17 – 1:00:18

don't. And we got in a little

1:00:18 – 1:00:19

bit of an argument there.

1:00:19 – 1:00:21

And then finally he described

1:00:21 – 1:00:22

it. And oh, like this.

1:00:23 – 1:00:24

And I took him to the left.

1:00:24 – 1:00:25

I took him to the right.

1:00:25 – 1:00:26

He goes, yeah. How do you do

1:00:26 – 1:00:27

that?

1:00:27 – 1:00:29

I honestly didn't have a clue.

1:00:32 – 1:00:33

We all do that.

1:00:33 – 1:00:34

without realizing it.

1:00:36 – 1:00:37

And so when you're trying to

1:00:37 – 1:00:38

learn something new,

1:00:39 – 1:00:41

you've got to, you've got to

1:00:41 – 1:00:42

really consciously do

1:00:43 – 1:00:45

it and, and go back and review

1:00:45 – 1:00:47

what you're doing.

1:00:47 – 1:00:48

You know, it's, I like getting

1:00:48 – 1:00:50

on places where we're okay.

1:00:51 – 1:00:52

Instead of one guy going out to

1:00:52 – 1:00:54

move the cows, like he can still

1:00:54 – 1:00:55

send out two guys to do it.

1:00:56 – 1:00:57

And, but one guy just sit there

1:00:57 – 1:00:58

and watch the other guy.

1:00:58 – 1:00:59

And when things start going

1:00:59 – 1:01:00

wrong,

1:01:00 – 1:01:01

the guy watching him

1:01:01 – 1:01:03

can tell what he's doing wrong.

1:01:04 – 1:01:05

You got to be able to take that

1:01:05 – 1:01:06

critique back and forth.

1:01:07 – 1:01:08

Because we don't realize and

1:01:08 – 1:01:10

that's the biggest mistake we

1:01:10 – 1:01:11

make. And it's I don't know if

1:01:11 – 1:01:13

it's a mistake or just human

1:01:13 – 1:01:14

nature that we're doing things

1:01:14 – 1:01:15

that we don't

1:01:16 – 1:01:17

really

1:01:17 – 1:01:18

realize how we're doing it.

1:01:20 – 1:01:22

I've got a slightly different

1:01:22 – 1:01:23

question.

1:01:23 – 1:01:24

You started we started this

1:01:24 – 1:01:25

conversation. you spoke about

1:01:25 – 1:01:28

observing sheep being bunched up

1:01:28 – 1:01:30

and goats being bunched up, but

1:01:30 – 1:01:31

the livestock being scattered

1:01:31 – 1:01:32

all over the place.

1:01:32 – 1:01:34

And now how in some management

1:01:34 – 1:01:35

contexts, all three of them are

1:01:35 – 1:01:36

scattered.

1:01:38 – 1:01:39

There've been a number of, not

1:01:39 – 1:01:40

many, but there've been some

1:01:40 – 1:01:41

operations that we've worked on

1:01:41 – 1:01:44

that had all three groups of

1:01:44 – 1:01:48

sheep, goats, and livestock

1:01:48 – 1:01:49

all merged and managing them as

1:01:49 – 1:01:51

one herd with fencing, of

1:01:51 – 1:01:52

course.

1:01:53 – 1:01:55

What does that look like in this

1:01:55 – 1:01:57

style of management?

1:01:59 – 1:02:01

Well, I had llamas and alpacas

1:02:01 – 1:02:03

going with cows for a little

1:02:03 – 1:02:03

while on the circle.

1:02:08 – 1:02:09

Last summer,

1:02:10 – 1:02:11

I did kind of an experiment

1:02:11 – 1:02:13

because rather than sitting

1:02:13 – 1:02:14

down, I'm realizing that these

1:02:14 – 1:02:16

guys got to get more approaches.

1:02:16 – 1:02:17

Well, they had their heifers,

1:02:17 – 1:02:18

then they had some pears,

1:02:19 – 1:02:20

and then they had a pasture that

1:02:20 – 1:02:21

had

1:02:22 – 1:02:23

hair sheep, wool sheep, and

1:02:23 – 1:02:24

goats.

1:02:25 – 1:02:27

So we go out in the morning.

1:02:27 – 1:02:28

We, all we do is we just go out

1:02:28 – 1:02:29

and take those heifers,

1:02:30 – 1:02:31

pick them up and get them to

1:02:31 – 1:02:31

where they were grazing

1:02:31 – 1:02:33

together. Then we jump over and

1:02:33 – 1:02:34

we do the cows.

1:02:35 – 1:02:37

And then we go over and work on

1:02:37 – 1:02:39

the goats and or the small

1:02:39 – 1:02:39

ruminants.

1:02:39 – 1:02:41

Now, the first time we went into

1:02:41 – 1:02:42

the small ruminants, they had

1:02:42 – 1:02:43

them on about,

1:02:44 – 1:02:45

oh, I don't know, it was close

1:02:45 – 1:02:45

to half a section

1:02:46 – 1:02:47

and they were scattered.

1:02:48 – 1:02:49

They were literally scattered

1:02:49 – 1:02:51

out across that whole, whole

1:02:51 – 1:02:52

pasture.

1:02:52 – 1:02:54

Guard dogs started boofing at us

1:02:54 – 1:02:55

and boy, they all go panic.

1:02:55 – 1:02:56

You know how they do panic and

1:02:56 – 1:02:57

running in together.

1:02:59 – 1:03:01

So I, I wrote down and I just

1:03:02 – 1:03:04

picked them up and kind of made

1:03:04 – 1:03:05

a little circle with them a

1:03:05 – 1:03:06

little bit. And then

1:03:07 – 1:03:08

I took them up and brought them

1:03:08 – 1:03:09

by where everybody's standing

1:03:09 – 1:03:10

there watching next to the

1:03:10 – 1:03:12

water. And I just said, I'm like

1:03:12 – 1:03:13

that. And we watched minutes.

1:03:13 – 1:03:14

So let's leave.

1:03:15 – 1:03:16

Well, the next day we went out

1:03:16 – 1:03:18

and instead

1:03:18 – 1:03:20

of being across that hole.

1:03:20 – 1:03:20

pasture,

1:03:21 – 1:03:23

they were taking up less than a

1:03:23 – 1:03:24

third.

1:03:26 – 1:03:28

So I did kind of the same thing

1:03:28 – 1:03:30

again, the next day we moved

1:03:30 – 1:03:31

them.

1:03:31 – 1:03:32

And then after that,

1:03:33 – 1:03:35

they were all taken up about

1:03:35 – 1:03:36

three

1:03:36 – 1:03:37

or four acres.

1:03:40 – 1:03:41

So you're actually getting your,

1:03:41 – 1:03:42

you're, you're getting your

1:03:42 – 1:03:44

impact better. They're grazing

1:03:44 – 1:03:46

for nutrition rather than just

1:03:46 – 1:03:47

blindly eating.

1:03:47 – 1:03:49

You know, uh, it's,

1:03:51 – 1:03:52

I don't know, do you ever stress

1:03:52 – 1:03:53

eat?

1:03:54 – 1:03:55

Yes, I have. Yeah.

1:03:55 – 1:03:58

I've got a real, I've got a real

1:03:58 – 1:03:59

bad habit about doing that.

1:03:59 – 1:04:00

And,

1:04:01 – 1:04:02

and that's the differences that

1:04:02 – 1:04:03

these,

1:04:03 – 1:04:04

these animals, when they're

1:04:04 – 1:04:05

going under,

1:04:05 – 1:04:07

even when you're putting them in

1:04:07 – 1:04:09

to smaller paddocks and moving

1:04:09 – 1:04:10

them daily,

1:04:11 – 1:04:12

they're stressed by the moves.

1:04:14 – 1:04:15

And I mean, if you're using the

1:04:15 – 1:04:17

low stress stockmanship, you

1:04:17 – 1:04:17

know, you're using a bud

1:04:17 – 1:04:19

Williams techniques, right.

1:04:19 – 1:04:21

It's lower stress,

1:04:22 – 1:04:23

but

1:04:24 – 1:04:26

it's still some stress.

1:04:27 – 1:04:29

You know, it's it's kind of a

1:04:29 – 1:04:30

unique deal. But when you switch

1:04:30 – 1:04:31

over to this and you don't do

1:04:31 – 1:04:33

anything, you don't get back

1:04:33 – 1:04:34

animals to move them.

1:04:34 – 1:04:35

You're approaching them from the

1:04:35 – 1:04:37

direction you want them to go.

1:04:38 – 1:04:39

And even if they're looking

1:04:40 – 1:04:41

the wrong way, they're pointing

1:04:41 – 1:04:43

the wrong way. You come in from

1:04:43 – 1:04:44

the direction you want them to

1:04:44 – 1:04:45

go.

1:04:45 – 1:04:46

And all you have to do is you

1:04:46 – 1:04:48

angle the horse a little bit and

1:04:48 – 1:04:48

they'll

1:04:48 – 1:04:50

or you're you're moving.

1:04:50 – 1:04:51

And then when I turn around,

1:04:51 – 1:04:52

look at you, then you adjust for

1:04:52 – 1:04:54

that to where they will wrap

1:04:54 – 1:04:55

around and go by and go in the

1:04:55 – 1:04:56

direction you want.

1:04:57 – 1:04:58

You know, that's a lot.

1:04:58 – 1:04:59

That's like saying,

1:05:00 – 1:05:01

Okay, we've got a, you know,

1:05:01 – 1:05:02

we've got a barbecue down there.

1:05:02 – 1:05:05

We have got prime rib, rib

1:05:05 – 1:05:05

steaks,

1:05:06 – 1:05:08

you know, spare ribs, lobster,

1:05:09 – 1:05:09

everything. You can imagine

1:05:09 – 1:05:11

anything you want to drink and

1:05:11 – 1:05:12

it's down there.

1:05:12 – 1:05:12

Now, if I come up to you and I

1:05:12 – 1:05:14

start pushing you in the face to

1:05:14 – 1:05:15

get you to turn around.

1:05:17 – 1:05:18

you're not going to want to turn

1:05:18 – 1:05:19

around.

1:05:19 – 1:05:20

You know, you might even throat

1:05:20 – 1:05:21

punch,

1:05:21 – 1:05:24

but if I come up from in backing

1:05:24 – 1:05:26

you turn and look and I, and I

1:05:26 – 1:05:27

go, Hey,

1:05:27 – 1:05:28

look down there.

1:05:29 – 1:05:30

And it's something that

1:05:30 – 1:05:31

you want to go do.

1:05:31 – 1:05:32

You're going to pick up and go

1:05:32 – 1:05:33

do it.

1:05:33 – 1:05:35

And that's the same type of a

1:05:35 – 1:05:36

psychology that you're using on

1:05:36 – 1:05:37

these animals

1:05:38 – 1:05:40

where you're not putting that

1:05:41 – 1:05:42

pressure on them to go.

1:05:43 – 1:05:43

You're just

1:05:44 – 1:05:45

showing them a good place to go.

1:05:46 – 1:05:47

Yeah.

1:05:48 – 1:05:49

Bob, this has been such a

1:05:49 – 1:05:50

fascinating conversation.

1:05:50 – 1:05:52

I've enjoyed myself immensely.

1:05:53 – 1:05:54

And I have the feeling that

1:05:54 – 1:05:56

we've, we've, we've made, we've

1:05:56 – 1:05:58

made the proverbial, uh, pen

1:05:58 – 1:06:00

scratch or pin scratch in an

1:06:00 – 1:06:01

iceberg.

1:06:01 – 1:06:02

Um, I'm sure there's so many

1:06:02 – 1:06:03

other things that we could,

1:06:04 – 1:06:05

could talk about.

1:06:05 – 1:06:06

What are, what are major, are

1:06:06 – 1:06:08

there any important topics that

1:06:08 – 1:06:09

we've missed?

1:06:10 – 1:06:12

Oh, there's all sorts of topics

1:06:12 – 1:06:13

that we missed.

1:06:13 – 1:06:16

You know, everything, everything

1:06:16 – 1:06:17

runs on frequencies.

1:06:17 – 1:06:21

We opened one entry of

1:06:21 – 1:06:21

the encyclopedia.

1:06:22 – 1:06:23

All right, everything runs in

1:06:23 – 1:06:24

frequencies.

1:06:24 – 1:06:26

Everything is held together by

1:06:26 – 1:06:27

what?

1:06:28 – 1:06:29

By atoms.

1:06:30 – 1:06:31

All your molecules are held

1:06:31 – 1:06:31

together by atoms.

1:06:32 – 1:06:33

What holds them together?

1:06:33 – 1:06:34

Electricity.

1:06:36 – 1:06:38

And electricity

1:06:39 – 1:06:40

has tons of different

1:06:40 – 1:06:41

frequencies. I mean,

1:06:42 – 1:06:43

just your internet's got one

1:06:43 – 1:06:44

frequency, your phone's got a

1:06:44 – 1:06:45

frequency,

1:06:46 – 1:06:47

your light bulb's got a

1:06:47 – 1:06:48

frequency.

1:06:48 – 1:06:50

and music. And I was talking

1:06:50 – 1:06:51

with Roger Savory on this the

1:06:51 – 1:06:52

other day. I cannot stand and

1:06:52 – 1:06:54

never have been able to stand

1:06:54 – 1:06:55

hard rock music.

1:06:56 – 1:06:57

It just grates me.

1:06:59 – 1:07:00

And then somebody sent me this,

1:07:00 – 1:07:01

Oh, you don't like rock music.

1:07:01 – 1:07:02

Listen to this.

1:07:03 – 1:07:04

And it was, and I thought, yeah,

1:07:04 – 1:07:06

right. Well, it was a band

1:07:06 – 1:07:07

called Stephen, the Seagulls,

1:07:09 – 1:07:11

and they were doing AC, DC,

1:07:12 – 1:07:12

uh,

1:07:12 – 1:07:13

Thunderstruck.

1:07:14 – 1:07:16

And I have, I've never liked

1:07:16 – 1:07:17

that. It's just, it's just

1:07:17 – 1:07:18

something about it just gets my

1:07:18 – 1:07:19

nerves going,

1:07:20 – 1:07:21

but you listen to it

1:07:22 – 1:07:22

1:07:22 – 1:07:24

the acoustical side

1:07:25 – 1:07:27

and that is a good music.

1:07:27 – 1:07:29

Was it tuned to four 32?

1:07:30 – 1:07:32

I don't know what it was tuned

1:07:32 – 1:07:33

to, but it's the difference

1:07:33 – 1:07:35

between the electronic version

1:07:35 – 1:07:37

of the music and the acoustical

1:07:37 – 1:07:38

version of the music

1:07:38 – 1:07:39

is two

1:07:39 – 1:07:40

different things.

1:07:41 – 1:07:42

Yeah.

1:07:42 – 1:07:44

Yeah, there is that there is a

1:07:44 – 1:07:45

difference between analog music

1:07:45 – 1:07:47

and digital music and the

1:07:47 – 1:07:48

completeness of the waveforms

1:07:48 – 1:07:49

and the way they interact with

1:07:49 – 1:07:50

yourselves.

1:07:50 – 1:07:51

There are differences in tuning

1:07:51 – 1:07:53

and the frequencies and the

1:07:53 – 1:07:54

harmonics and the way they

1:07:54 – 1:07:55

interact.

1:07:56 – 1:07:56

Yeah, there's

1:07:57 – 1:07:58

it's

1:07:58 – 1:07:59

I've

1:08:00 – 1:08:03

sometimes daydreamed

1:08:03 – 1:08:06

about what would it be like

1:08:07 – 1:08:09

what how might our

1:08:10 – 1:08:11

life be different if we could

1:08:11 – 1:08:14

selectively chose to turn on or

1:08:14 – 1:08:16

off the ability to see some of

1:08:16 – 1:08:17

into the into the spectrum.

1:08:18 – 1:08:20

When you think about all the

1:08:20 – 1:08:21

ways that all these living

1:08:21 – 1:08:22

systems are communicating with

1:08:22 – 1:08:23

each other, the way trees

1:08:23 – 1:08:25

communicate electromagnetically,

1:08:25 – 1:08:26

trees and plants, the way

1:08:26 – 1:08:27

livestock communicates

1:08:27 – 1:08:30

that the whole ecosystem is so

1:08:30 – 1:08:33

rich and vibrant with constant

1:08:33 – 1:08:34

communication in the

1:08:34 – 1:08:35

electromagnetic spectrum.

1:08:35 – 1:08:36

Of course, it would be

1:08:36 – 1:08:37

overwhelming if we were exposed

1:08:37 – 1:08:38

to all of it all the time.

1:08:38 – 1:08:40

We would be incapacitated.

1:08:40 – 1:08:42

But if we could just shift

1:08:42 – 1:08:45

spectrums and see into different

1:08:45 – 1:08:46

segments of the spectrum at

1:08:46 – 1:08:46

different times.

1:08:47 – 1:08:48

Okay.

1:08:51 – 1:08:52

And this kind of goes back to

1:08:52 – 1:08:52

the murmurations.

1:08:54 – 1:08:55

1:08:56 – 1:08:57

animals communicate so much

1:08:57 – 1:08:58

better than we do.

1:09:00 – 1:09:01

I had a deal. I was on that

1:09:01 – 1:09:02

talk.

1:09:03 – 1:09:04

Oh, I think they talked.

1:09:04 – 1:09:06

and we just don't, we, we don't,

1:09:06 – 1:09:08

we're not on the same frequency.

1:09:09 – 1:09:10

Yeah.

1:09:09 – 1:09:10

Uh,

1:09:11 – 1:09:13

we had 1300 cows and it was on

1:09:13 – 1:09:14

the third.

1:09:14 – 1:09:16

Again, it was that third day

1:09:16 – 1:09:17

deal

1:09:17 – 1:09:19

and they're going up

1:09:19 – 1:09:20

this

1:09:20 – 1:09:21

Ridge

1:09:22 – 1:09:23

and they

1:09:24 – 1:09:25

went by this cord grass.

1:09:25 – 1:09:26

Well, cord grass grows six,

1:09:27 – 1:09:27

seven foot tall.

1:09:28 – 1:09:29

It's course the Indians used to

1:09:29 – 1:09:30

make baskets out of it.

1:09:31 – 1:09:33

The, the pioneers used to take

1:09:33 – 1:09:34

and braid it into logs for

1:09:34 – 1:09:35

firewood.

1:09:36 – 1:09:37

supposedly nothing eats it.

1:09:39 – 1:09:41

Well, it was just about the last

1:09:41 – 1:09:42

cow on

1:09:43 – 1:09:44

this 1300 head

1:09:46 – 1:09:47

decided, well, I'm going to go

1:09:47 – 1:09:48

over and try this.

1:09:50 – 1:09:51

And it just started heading down

1:09:51 – 1:09:52

that

1:09:52 – 1:09:54

1300 cows just turned around and

1:09:54 – 1:09:56

followed it down and just

1:09:56 – 1:09:57

started going,

1:09:57 – 1:09:58

going down one draw, turn

1:09:58 – 1:09:59

around, coming up another draw,

1:09:59 – 1:10:00

eating it.

1:10:04 – 1:10:05

What is the communication going

1:10:05 – 1:10:07

on there that this

1:10:07 – 1:10:09

cow goes, hey, this is actually

1:10:09 – 1:10:10

pretty good stuff.

1:10:10 – 1:10:12

And everybody turns around and

1:10:12 – 1:10:13

goes to eat something that

1:10:14 – 1:10:16

that they've never eaten.

1:10:16 – 1:10:18

that everybody thinks they don't

1:10:18 – 1:10:18

eat.

1:10:18 – 1:10:20

It turned out that

1:10:20 – 1:10:23

the nutritional profile was

1:10:23 – 1:10:26

almost identical to to

1:10:26 – 1:10:27

Timothy.

1:10:30 – 1:10:32

And these cows just change and

1:10:32 – 1:10:33

they all communicate.

1:10:33 – 1:10:34

Oh, we've got to go down here

1:10:34 – 1:10:35

and eat this.

1:10:36 – 1:10:37

You know what the heck?

1:10:37 – 1:10:39

Because people don't people are

1:10:39 – 1:10:40

oblivious to

1:10:41 – 1:10:42

things like that.

1:10:48 – 1:10:49

Wonderful, Bob.

1:10:50 – 1:10:51

Thank you very much for being

1:10:51 – 1:10:52

here. Thank you for sharing your

1:10:52 – 1:10:53

wisdom.

1:10:54 – 1:10:56

And I'm sure you'll have lots of

1:10:56 – 1:10:57

conversations emerging from

1:10:57 – 1:10:58

this. Thank you for all the work

1:10:58 – 1:10:59

that you do and for all that

1:10:59 – 1:11:00

you're bringing to the world.

1:11:00 – 1:11:01

Oh,

1:11:01 – 1:11:02

just thanks for letting me do

1:11:02 – 1:11:03

it.

1:11:06 – 1:11:07

Oh, that was fun.

1:11:07 – 1:11:08

Thank you.

1:11:08 – 1:11:09

Thank you.