Episode 183: Overcoming the Ammonium Death Spiral with Jim Dunlop

Jim Dunlop is a senior agronomist with Advancing Eco Agriculture (AEA) whose journey into agriculture began after serving in the Marine Corps. He used the GI Bill to study biology and chemistry at CSU Stanislaus. While there, he started a CSA farm in the Yosemite foothills, which grew significantly as he collaborated with organic growers. Jim later managed a pasture livestock operation on California’s Central Coast and spent a year traveling the country in an RV to visit diverse farms. He eventually settled in Oregon’s Columbia Gorge, transitioning from a compost facility to managing orchards for Mike Omeg, where he first discovered AEA.

Today, Jim is working to build the AEA business in the Pacific Northwest. He works with conventional and organic growers across a variety of crops, including tree fruit, berries, vegetables, and livestock pasture. In his role, Jim uses his years of experience, sap analysis and AI to pinpoint plant metabolic bottlenecks, helping growers overcome environmental stress and unlock peak crop performance.

In this episode, John and Jim discuss:

How adding small amounts of sugar to foliar sprays stops a destructive “ammonium death spiral” by balancing nitrogen and raising sap pH.
How addressing a plant’s foundational sugar and boron levels successfully unlocks calcium movement into new leaves far better than heavy doses of foliar calcium alone.
The way using AEA’s pre-mixed nutrient blends rather than standard tank mixing helps farmers cut application costs while achieving identical sap movement.
The impressive field trial results of AEA’s Pinion product in successfully making powdery mildew less active in highly susceptible conventional cherry orchards.
The powerful synergy of pairing fertigation and foliar applications together to trigger rapid shoot growth and maximize fruit size.

Resources To learn about working with AEA, please visit: https://advancingecoag.com/land/consulting/ To buy and see what Pinion can do for you, please visit: https://advancingecoag.com/product/pinion/ To buy SeaStim, please visit: https://advancingecoag.com/product/seastim-gal-p685008/

About John Kempf
John Kempf is the founder of Advancing Eco Agriculture (AEA). A top expert in biological and regenerative farming, John founded AEA in 2006 to help fellow farmers by providing the education, tools, and strategies that will have a global effect on the food supply and those who grow it.

Through intense study and the knowledge gleaned from many industry leaders, John is building a comprehensive systems-based approach to plant nutrition – a system solidly based on the sciences of plant physiology, mineral nutrition, and soil microbiology.

Support For This Show & Helping You Grow
Since 2006, AEA has been on a mission to help growers become more resilient, efficient, and profitable with regenerative agriculture. AEA works directly with growers to apply its unique line of liquid mineral crop nutrition products and biological inoculants. Informed by cutting-edge plant and soil data-gathering techniques, AEA’s science-based programs empower farm operations to meet the crop quality markers that matter the most.
AEA has created real and lasting change on millions of acres with its products and data-driven services by working hand-in-hand with growers to produce healthier soil, stronger crops, and higher profits.

Beyond working on the ground with growers, AEA leads in regenerative agriculture media and education, producing and distributing the popular and highly-regarded Regenerative Agriculture Podcast, inspiring webinars, and other educational content that serve as go-to resources for growers worldwide.

Learn more about AEA’s regenerative programs and products: https://www.advancingecoag.com

Podcast Transcript

0:00 – 0:02

Hi, friends. Welcome to the Region of

0:02 – 0:03

Agriculture podcast.

0:03 – 0:05

This is John, and today I'm here with one

0:05 – 0:07

of my good friends who I haven't talked to

0:07 – 0:09

in way too long, Jim Dunlop.

0:09 – 0:10

Jim, thanks for being here.

0:10 – 0:11

Thanks for joining me.

0:11 – 0:13

You've been having a lot of fun this

0:13 – 0:15

growing season. For those who aren't

0:15 – 0:17

familiar with Jim's name, he's been on our

0:17 – 0:19

social media a little bit, but Jim is one

0:19 – 0:22

of our team members here at AEA, and he's

0:22 – 0:23

done all kinds of interesting stuff.

0:23 – 0:26

Actually, Jim, I was about to jump in to

0:26 – 0:28

ask you the question of what you've been

0:28 – 0:30

working on this year and the fun things

0:30 – 0:32

you've been having, but I think you're.

0:32 – 0:34

And the work you've done in the field is

0:34 – 0:36

an interesting part of your story.

0:36 – 0:39

Tell us a little bit about your background

0:39 – 0:41

and the full scope of all the fun things

0:41 – 0:44

you stick your fingers into that got you

0:44 – 0:45

here. Oh, gosh. Let's see.

0:45 – 0:47

Well, I was in the Marine Corps.

0:47 – 0:50

And when I got out, I had the GI Bill.

0:50 – 0:53

And so I used the GI Bill to put myself

0:53 – 0:55

through college. And I was living in

0:55 – 0:57

California at the time.

0:57 – 1:00

And so I went to CSU Stanislaus and I was

1:00 – 1:01

studying biology with a botany emphasis

1:01 – 1:03

and a Chemistry minor.

1:03 – 1:06

And so while I was doing that, I started a

1:06 – 1:06

little farm there.

1:06 – 1:09

This was in the foothills of Yosemite.

1:09 – 1:11

And yeah, I started a CSA, started growing

1:11 – 1:12

vegetables, chickens, things like that.

1:12 – 1:14

Didn't really know what I was doing.

1:14 – 1:17

And that really blew up into a bigger

1:17 – 1:19

business. And I started working with Tom

1:19 – 1:21

Willey and his farm down in Madeira.

1:21 – 1:23

And I did not know that.

1:23 – 1:24

I didn't know that.

1:24 – 1:25

You didn't know that?

1:25 – 1:28

No. Oh, yeah. Tom, I'm going to go way

1:28 – 1:30

back. And also Phil Foster, of course.

1:30 – 1:32

Richard Willie and Phil Foster.

1:32 – 1:34

Oh, my. Yeah, way back in the day.

1:34 – 1:36

Gosh, this would have been like in the

1:36 – 1:38

late 90s, early 2000s.

1:38 – 1:40

And yeah, so that CSA really blew up, and

1:40 – 1:43

I was able to get access to vegetables

1:43 – 1:45

from those guys. And I lived in the

1:45 – 1:47

foothills, and the soil wasn't very good.

1:47 – 1:49

So it was really difficult to grow

1:49 – 1:51

vegetables. And then I moved to the

1:51 – 1:53

Central Coast and I started another

1:53 – 1:55

operation there. And that was mostly

1:55 – 1:56

chickens and pigs.

1:56 – 1:58

So I raised thousands of chickens on

1:58 – 2:00

pasture for meat, and then a lot of

2:00 – 2:03

thousands of lair hens, all in a movable

2:03 – 2:05

pasture system. And oh, I don't know.

2:05 – 2:08

I had a couple, I had like 20 sows and a

2:08 – 2:10

couple boars, and we produced pigs and

2:10 – 2:13

sold them as halves and holes and sold at

2:13 – 2:14

the farmers markets.

2:14 – 2:16

I was in all the South Bay farmers markets

2:16 – 2:17

back then.

2:18 – 2:20

And then let's see, we kind of had the

2:20 – 2:22

economic downturn in 2008, 2010 time

2:22 – 2:24

period. And then I just traveled for a

2:24 – 2:26

year in an RV and visited farms all over

2:26 – 2:28

the country with my family at the time.

2:28 – 2:30

And that was a fun thing.

2:30 – 2:32

I would just show up and, you know, Go

2:32 – 2:34

through the scrapyard and build a pig

2:34 – 2:36

house, or you know, hoe all the vegetables

2:36 – 2:37

and hoe all the vegetables.

2:37 – 2:40

And it was really fun to do it when you

2:40 – 2:41

didn't have to work.

2:41 – 2:44

And then the rest of the time I was trail

2:44 – 2:46

running or riding my mountain bike or

2:46 – 2:46

something like that.

2:46 – 2:49

And then we ended up in the Hood River

2:49 – 2:51

area, which is where I am now.

2:51 – 2:53

I live in Mosier in between the Dallas and

2:53 – 2:55

Hood River on the Columbia Gorge in

2:55 – 2:57

Oregon, just right across the river from

2:57 – 2:58

Washington. And I started working at a

2:58 – 3:00

compost facility here, and that's where I

3:00 – 3:01

met Kevin Tully.

3:02 – 3:04

And Kevin went down to California and Mike

3:04 – 3:06

Omeg kind of robbed me away from the

3:06 – 3:08

compost facility. I went to work for Mike.

3:08 – 3:10

I had been spreading compost, working for

3:10 – 3:12

the compost facility on Mike's orchards,

3:12 – 3:13

and that's how we met.

3:13 – 3:15

And so I came to work for Mike Omeg.

3:15 – 3:17

This would have been like 2013, 2014.

3:17 – 3:20

And that's how I met you and the team from

3:20 – 3:22

AEA. Mike was using you guys for

3:22 – 3:23

consulting and for products.

3:23 – 3:25

And I just saw so many amazing things

3:25 – 3:26

working. For Mike.

3:26 – 3:28

And you know, Mike was my mentor in

3:28 – 3:30

orcharding back then, and I learned a ton

3:30 – 3:33

from him. You know, I work with tons of

3:33 – 3:35

orchardists, and you know, Mike Omeg is

3:35 – 3:37

one of the best, if not the best.

3:37 – 3:39

Uh, you know, there's something about that

3:39 – 3:40

obsessive management, obsessive

3:40 – 3:42

management, yeah. And Mike's all and it's

3:42 – 3:44

really pushed me. I mean, some of the

3:44 – 3:46

things that I know now and the things that

3:46 – 3:48

I'm into now, it's always because Mike's

3:48 – 3:49

like, what's the next thing?

3:51 – 3:54

Um, and then, yeah, so then what we have.

3:54 – 3:55

We had that bad year.

3:55 – 3:58

We had that freeze in 2015, and the 2016

3:58 – 3:59

crop wasn't so great.

3:59 – 4:02

And then in 2017, all the trees really

4:02 – 4:03

overproduced. And Mike was really saved,

4:03 – 4:06

or his farm was saved, because he had 10

4:06 – 4:08

row fruit because they had been working

4:08 – 4:11

with AEA, and nobody else had 10 row

4:11 – 4:13

fruit. 10 row is kind of like an average

4:13 – 4:16

size fruit, but everybody else had 11 and

4:16 – 4:18

12 row fruit, which is way smaller and

4:18 – 4:21

hard to sell. So Mike was able to get into

4:21 – 4:23

all these packing houses ahead of their

4:23 – 4:25

growers because we had good fruit out

4:25 – 4:28

there. And then, you know, there was so

4:28 – 4:30

much trouble with the market and things.

4:30 – 4:32

That's when Mike decided to join forces

4:32 – 4:33

with Orchard View.

4:33 – 4:36

And so I had an opportunity to go work for

4:36 – 4:38

Orchard View, but I was a single parent

4:38 – 4:41

and it was really tough for me to work in

4:41 – 4:43

the orchards. And that's when I hooked up

4:43 – 4:46

with AEA. And it was really, you know, I

4:46 – 4:48

was never like a salesperson or anything

4:48 – 4:50

like that or didn't consider myself that.

4:50 – 4:53

But I had seen so many good things with,

4:53 – 4:55

you know, AEA programs and products.

4:55 – 4:57

That it was really easy for me to join the

4:57 – 4:59

team. And so the interesting thing was, I

4:59 – 5:02

worked for a year for AEA, and then Kevin,

5:02 – 5:04

who I had met at the compost facility, he

5:04 – 5:06

came back from California where he was

5:06 – 5:08

managing a bunch of wood waste facilities

5:08 – 5:10

down there. And then Kevin and I really

5:10 – 5:11

built the business here.

5:11 – 5:14

I was kind of more on the farming side and

5:14 – 5:15

the ideas about farming.

5:15 – 5:17

And then Kevin is a really systems minded

5:17 – 5:19

person. And we worked together to kind of

5:19 – 5:21

build our business out here.

5:21 – 5:23

And yeah. And then what is the scope of

5:23 – 5:26

your work today? The scope of my work

5:26 – 5:28

today, yeah. Um, well, I'm a senior

5:28 – 5:31

agronomist here at AEA and I work on a lot

5:31 – 5:33

of apples and cherries and blueberries,

5:33 – 5:34

conventional and organic.

5:34 – 5:37

I work on a lot of onions and potatoes and

5:37 – 5:40

now a lot of dairy pasture and uh beef

5:40 – 5:43

cattle pasture, a bunch of other stuff,

5:43 – 5:45

but those are the main things.

5:45 – 5:47

Um, yeah, that's that's the tech.

5:47 – 5:48

Yeah. That's the textbook answer.

5:48 – 5:51

So I'm going to ask you a different

5:51 – 5:54

question now. What do you have fun working

5:54 – 5:56

on today? I really love learning and

5:56 – 5:58

figuring things out and just trying to

5:58 – 6:01

understand a lot of times, like why the

6:01 – 6:03

thing that I'm doing isn't working.

6:03 – 6:06

And the thing that really struck me was it

6:06 – 6:08

last year, I was working on corn and

6:08 – 6:09

potatoes in Idaho.

6:09 – 6:12

And just, you know, they've got a lot of

6:12 – 6:15

sodium and a lot of chloride, especially

6:15 – 6:18

chloride. And you see that in the sap, you

6:18 – 6:20

know. You see that in the sap, thousands

6:20 – 6:22

of parts per million of chloride.

6:22 – 6:25

And I was talking to these farmers, and

6:25 – 6:27

they had really high nitrate in their sap.

6:27 – 6:30

And I said, We're going to put some

6:30 – 6:32

molybdenum out there, and those numbers

6:32 – 6:35

are going to come down from high hundreds

6:35 – 6:37

and thousands down to 50 or something like

6:37 – 6:39

that. And we're going to process nitrate.

6:39 – 6:41

And it didn't work.

6:41 – 6:44

And this was right about the time I had

6:44 – 6:46

started using AI. And I had like 15 years

6:46 – 6:49

worth of questions built up, at least,

6:49 – 6:50

working with sap analysis.

6:50 – 6:53

And every once in a while, one of them

6:53 – 6:55

will break loose in my brain.

6:55 – 6:58

And a lot of what I do now is try and

6:58 – 7:01

think of questions to, or just try to

7:01 – 7:04

understand what I don't know and use AI to

7:04 – 7:06

figure it out. And so, what I realized was

7:06 – 7:09

the crops that I was working on over there

7:09 – 7:12

were low sugar. And that really got me

7:12 – 7:14

into asking the question of what does the

7:14 – 7:17

plant do with its sugars and how does it

7:17 – 7:19

prioritize the use of its sugars?

7:19 – 7:22

And then I went down this whole, you know,

7:22 – 7:24

all these rabbit holes about that.

7:24 – 7:27

But I went back and looked at all this

7:27 – 7:29

historical sap. You know, we have this

7:29 – 7:30

huge database of sap.

7:30 – 7:33

I noticed that most of the crops that we

7:33 – 7:35

work on were very low in sugar.

7:35 – 7:37

And I started seeing a pattern that's

7:37 – 7:39

pretty typical out here, especially people

7:39 – 7:41

don't have too much nitrogen.

7:41 – 7:44

When you have too much nitrogen, it's a

7:44 – 7:46

different story. But, like, especially in

7:46 – 7:48

organics, I'll see this where you have low

7:48 – 7:51

sugar, low pH, high ammonium, and then

7:51 – 7:53

flat nitrate. And then that all kind of

7:53 – 7:55

leads to the inability to uptake calcium

7:55 – 7:57

within the new leaf.

7:57 – 7:59

So we'll know the calcium is there because

7:59 – 8:02

we see it in the old leaf, but we can't

8:02 – 8:04

get it into the new leaf.

8:04 – 8:07

And the inability to reduce iron and make

8:07 – 8:09

it usable, the inability to move potassium

8:09 – 8:11

into the fruit or into the grain.

8:11 – 8:14

So, just a cascade of effects coming from

8:14 – 8:16

the fact that we don't have good sugars.

8:17 – 8:19

You know, the plant wants to.

8:19 – 8:21

Now, Hank, hang on a second.

8:21 – 8:24

Yeah, go ahead. The way you ended that,

8:24 – 8:26

where you talked about all those nutrient

8:26 – 8:29

interactions, and then you went back and

8:29 – 8:31

described that as the source of that

8:31 – 8:34

problem being that you don't have enough

8:34 – 8:35

sugars. And that was just...

8:35 – 8:37

That was your tag on.

8:37 – 8:38

Yeah, that's right.

8:38 – 8:41

Yeah, elaborate on that a little bit more.

8:41 – 8:44

How does a lack of sugars lead to all

8:44 – 8:46

those outcomes? So, especially in this

8:46 – 8:49

work that I was doing in Idaho, where it

8:49 – 8:52

was most severe, you know, the plant has

8:52 – 8:54

to prioritize staying alive first.

8:54 – 8:57

And so it's going to use its sugars to

8:57 – 8:59

reduce stress, move things around in the

8:59 – 9:02

plant, and, you know, do all kinds of

9:02 – 9:03

stuff to reduce stress.

9:03 – 9:06

But then the next thing it's going to do

9:06 – 9:08

is process nitrogen and make carbon

9:08 – 9:09

skeletons for ammonium assimilation.

9:09 – 9:11

And that's where farmers really shoot

9:11 – 9:13

themselves in the foot, is because they

9:13 – 9:16

put out so much nitrogen that they suck

9:16 – 9:17

down their sugars.

9:17 – 9:19

And then you get the low pH.

9:19 – 9:22

And the low pH is just an indicator of

9:22 – 9:24

something else that's going on in the

9:24 – 9:27

plant with the low pH and the high

9:27 – 9:29

ammonium. And so the background questions

9:29 – 9:32

behind this is why do you have low sugars

9:32 – 9:33

in the first place?

9:33 – 9:35

I know that historically we've often

9:35 – 9:37

addressed that by focusing on magnesium

9:37 – 9:39

and trace minerals and so forth to

9:39 – 9:40

increase photosynthesis.

9:40 – 9:42

But what's actually happening in these

9:42 – 9:44

scenarios with the high chlorides and so

9:44 – 9:46

forth, it seems you're not able to solve

9:46 – 9:48

that with just adding more nutrients

9:48 – 9:49

alone.

9:50 – 9:52

Yeah, and it's a combination of things,

9:52 – 9:55

right? Because the plant has a lot of

9:55 – 9:57

stress, so it's using sugars for that, and

9:57 – 10:00

then it's using sugars for all this big

10:00 – 10:02

slug of nitrogen that's out there

10:02 – 10:03

nitrogens out there, especially the

10:03 – 10:06

ammonium. And then there's not a lot left

10:06 – 10:07

for everything else.

10:07 – 10:09

There's not even enough for the ammonium

10:09 – 10:11

processing. And so the plant is constantly

10:11 – 10:13

in this state of low sugar.

10:13 – 10:15

And then it's made worse because the plant

10:15 – 10:17

has to photorespire to deal with the

10:17 – 10:20

effects of having all this ammonium in the

10:20 – 10:22

sap. And I call it the ammonium death

10:22 – 10:25

spiral because you have too much ammonium

10:25 – 10:26

already, and then a byproduct of

10:26 – 10:28

photorespiration is more ammonium.

10:28 – 10:30

And so what have As you've been playing

10:30 – 10:33

around with this this last year, I started

10:33 – 10:35

by asking you the question of what have

10:35 – 10:37

you been working on that's been fun or

10:37 – 10:39

that you've been enjoying?

10:39 – 10:41

What are the results that you're observing

10:41 – 10:42

as you're playing with this?

10:42 – 10:45

Yes, we actually got a chance to mess

10:45 – 10:47

around on cherries down in Chile over the

10:47 – 10:50

winter. And we kind of started midway

10:50 – 10:50

through the season.

10:50 – 10:53

And we started with a pound and then moved

10:53 – 10:56

up to two pounds of just, I think it was

10:56 – 10:57

organic cane sugar.

10:58 – 11:01

And we didn't change the sugar levels, but

11:01 – 11:03

we did process the ammonia.

11:03 – 11:06

And kind of normalize the nitrogen where

11:06 – 11:09

the nitrate and the ammonium seemed, you

11:09 – 11:12

know, really balanced and raise the pH.

11:12 – 11:15

If I didn't say that, raise the pH, yeah.

11:15 – 11:18

All right, let's connect the dots for

11:18 – 11:21

people who might be trying to follow

11:21 – 11:23

along. How does changing the ammonium

11:23 – 11:25

result in increasing the pH?

11:25 – 11:29

Yep. So you have to think about the two

11:29 – 11:31

forms of Nitrogen in the sap.

11:31 – 11:34

You have nitrate, which is alkaline and

11:34 – 11:37

oxidized, and ammonium, which is acidic

11:37 – 11:40

and reduced. And we kind of want to, we

11:40 – 11:43

do want a balance of that.

11:43 – 11:46

And a lot of times we'll have so much

11:46 – 11:49

ammonium that we have excess ATP and

11:49 – 11:52

reducing energy that we need to use up.

11:52 – 11:55

And so the plant uses it up by

11:55 – 11:57

photorespirating. And so, or

11:57 – 11:59

photorespiring, I should say.

11:59 – 12:01

And so, when the planet's photorespiring,

12:01 – 12:03

if people don't understand this, basically

12:03 – 12:06

it's grabbing onto oxygen instead of CO2,

12:06 – 12:09

and it's just kind of spinning its wheels

12:09 – 12:13

in that machinery to get rid of this

12:13 – 12:14

excess reducing energy.

12:14 – 12:17

And then the byproduct is ammonium, but

12:17 – 12:20

you're using up sugars and kind of going

12:20 – 12:22

backwards when you photorespire versus

12:22 – 12:24

photosynthesis when you're making sugars

12:24 – 12:25

and moving forward.

12:27 – 12:28

This is fascinating, Jim, because one of

12:28 – 12:30

the things that I've talked about is.

12:30 – 12:32

Is how nitrogen, excess of nitrogen.

12:32 – 12:33

Talked about is how nitrogen, excess of

12:33 – 12:35

nitrogen, actually creates a yield drag

12:35 – 12:37

effect. But often when I was explaining it

12:37 – 12:39

and talking about it publicly to people, I

12:39 – 12:41

would describe it largely in terms of

12:41 – 12:42

nitrate and the additional water use

12:42 – 12:43

requirement and the carbohydrate

12:43 – 12:45

requirement. And I've never really gone

12:45 – 12:46

into a lot of detail about ammonium.

12:46 – 12:48

And I don't think I've ever connected the

12:48 – 12:50

dots in quite the way that you're

12:50 – 12:51

connecting them now.

12:51 – 12:53

I'm sure I have at times, but not into a

12:53 – 12:54

cohesive whole.

12:55 – 12:57

Yeah, no, it's really interesting, John.

12:57 – 13:01

And I go back and I've listened to some of

13:01 – 13:03

the older talks that you've done and

13:03 – 13:04

webinars and everything.

13:04 – 13:07

And I used to feel the same way about

13:07 – 13:10

nitrate, you know, because I was, you

13:10 – 13:11

know, mostly learning from you.

13:11 – 13:15

But now I see it more as like a balance.

13:15 – 13:18

Like I look at nitrate in the sap when

13:18 – 13:21

it's a good level as showing us that we

13:21 – 13:24

have good root health and good uptake of

13:24 – 13:26

nitrogen. I look at the ammonium in the

13:26 – 13:29

sap as some of it coming from nitrate

13:29 – 13:31

reduction. So, you know, we're going from

13:31 – 13:33

nitrate to nitrite to ammonium.

13:33 – 13:34

So, that's just normal.

13:34 – 13:37

You're going to have some in the sap.

13:37 – 13:40

But then a lot of it is from stress.

13:40 – 13:43

So a lot of it is from photorespiration.

13:43 – 13:47

And so I see that a lot where we just have

13:47 – 13:49

so much ammonium and we've reduced the pH

13:49 – 13:50

of the sap.

13:51 – 13:54

But as I was starting to say earlier, the

13:54 – 13:58

pH of the sap is just an indicator of the

13:58 – 14:00

oxidation reduction status of the sap.

14:00 – 14:03

And so when we have tons of ammonium, the

14:03 – 14:04

sap is very reduced.

14:04 – 14:07

That's one of the things, you know, I've

14:07 – 14:09

changed my perspective on nitrate over the

14:09 – 14:12

years as well. There was a point, I'd say

14:12 – 14:15

five or six years ago, if you asked me

14:15 – 14:18

what the optimal levels of nitrate were on

14:18 – 14:20

sap analysis on most crops, I would have

14:20 – 14:22

said that the answer is zero.

14:22 – 14:25

But I don't think that's true anymore.

14:25 – 14:28

I still think it needs to be low, lower

14:28 – 14:30

than it is on most crops for most

14:30 – 14:31

fertilization practices.

14:31 – 14:33

But I've actually, I started thinking

14:33 – 14:36

about nitrate more as a plant hormone than

14:36 – 14:38

as a nutrient. It has a very pronounced

14:38 – 14:41

hormonal effect where it has such strong

14:41 – 14:42

Synergy with oxygen, drives vegetative

14:42 – 14:45

growth so much. And it's, I think it's

14:45 – 14:46

foundational for us.

14:46 – 14:50

If we want large leaf size and fruit size

14:50 – 14:52

and so forth from an optimal plant health

14:52 – 14:54

and performance perspective, yeah, nitrate

14:54 – 14:56

should be, shouldn't be zero.

14:56 – 14:59

It should be low, but it shouldn't be

14:59 – 15:01

zero. Yeah, and one of the interesting

15:01 – 15:04

things about nitrate is it's the strongest

15:04 – 15:05

electron acceptor in the plant.

15:05 – 15:08

And so when we have high, amounts of

15:08 – 15:11

ammonium. And I haven't done this, but

15:11 – 15:14

theoretically what you can do is add small

15:14 – 15:16

amounts of of nitrate in order to balance

15:16 – 15:20

that and by you know small amounts I mean

15:20 – 15:22

like half a pound of nitrogen you know

15:22 – 15:26

very very low amounts in like a foliar but

15:26 – 15:28

nitrate is the pull on photosynthesis this

15:28 – 15:32

is how I look at it because nitrate is the

15:32 – 15:33

acceptor of the things.

15:33 – 15:36

That photosynthesis makes right and so I

15:36 – 15:39

don't know if this is true.

15:39 – 15:42

But my understanding, what I'm kind of

15:42 – 15:44

digging into is can nitrate pull

15:44 – 15:46

photosynthesis and keep photosynthesis

15:46 – 15:48

strong because there's this immediate

15:48 – 15:51

place where it can put its photosynthates

15:51 – 15:54

versus piling up electrons and ATP and not

15:54 – 15:57

having a place to put it?

15:57 – 16:00

You know, what is fascinating to me, it'd

16:00 – 16:04

be interesting to go back and redo some

16:04 – 16:07

of this research that Don Huber was a

16:07 – 16:10

part of 50 some years ago.

16:10 – 16:13

He describes how they were evaluating the

16:13 – 16:16

nitrogen profile of corn, the forms of

16:16 – 16:19

nitrogen that corn was absorbing for peak

16:19 – 16:22

productivity. And of course, at this point

16:22 – 16:24

in the research world, they weren't paying

16:24 – 16:26

a whole lot of attention to various

16:26 – 16:28

organic forms of nitrogen.

16:28 – 16:30

They weren't measuring amino acids and

16:30 – 16:32

amino sugars and proteins and bacteria and

16:32 – 16:33

all these various things.

16:33 – 16:35

They were just looking exclusively at

16:35 – 16:37

mineral nitrogen. And they described, I

16:37 – 16:40

don't know if this was, I think it was

16:40 – 16:43

published. I think this was a PhD thesis

16:43 – 16:45

of one of Don's students, but they

16:45 – 16:47

described that the highest corn yields

16:47 – 16:49

consistently clustered around a nitrogen

16:49 – 16:51

profile that was 80 ammonium and 20

16:51 – 16:54

nitrate. Yep. I think I just listened to

16:54 – 16:56

that recently. I love listening to that

16:56 – 16:59

stuff, John, because it really gets me

16:59 – 17:01

thinking. I think the first thing to think

17:01 – 17:04

about when people talk about anything to

17:04 – 17:07

do with nitrogen is what is the status of

17:07 – 17:09

the other nutrients in the plant?

17:09 – 17:12

You know, did we have good sugars in those

17:12 – 17:13

plants? Did we have molly?

17:13 – 17:16

Did we have iron? Did we have boron?

17:16 – 17:18

You know, all the things that we need to

17:18 – 17:20

process nitrogen. And I hear universities,

17:20 – 17:22

you know, talk about their studies and

17:22 – 17:25

things, and they'll say, we use this much

17:25 – 17:26

nitrogen and here's the results.

17:26 – 17:29

But it's like, how do we know, you know,

17:29 – 17:32

one field had good molly or good iron?

17:32 – 17:34

Or so without looking at those things,

17:34 – 17:36

it's really hard to know, I think.

17:36 – 17:38

Here's an interesting thing I've been

17:38 – 17:40

thinking about corn, John, and I want to

17:40 – 17:43

try this. I'm trying to get Bo to do it

17:43 – 17:46

with me this year, but You know, as the

17:46 – 17:49

corn plant gets older and the roots get

17:49 – 17:51

older during the season, they become kind

17:51 – 17:52

of sloppy and less selective.

17:52 – 17:55

And the plant wants to balance its anions

17:55 – 17:57

and cations. And so a lot of times it's

17:57 – 18:00

going to pick up chloride as an easy anion

18:00 – 18:01

to balance its sap.

18:01 – 18:04

And I wonder if you can't go out there

18:04 – 18:07

with a small shot of nitrate, because we

18:07 – 18:09

all see the nitrate is almost zero.

18:09 – 18:11

In the sap later in the season, there's

18:11 – 18:14

tons of ammonium. And I wonder if you can

18:14 – 18:17

go out there with some nitrate and apply

18:17 – 18:19

that and then recreate or just, I don't

18:19 – 18:22

know how you want to say it, but like get

18:22 – 18:24

that pull going again on photosynthesis

18:24 – 18:26

and get the plant to perform better later

18:26 – 18:27

in the season.

18:29 – 18:31

That seems a viable theory because plants

18:31 – 18:33

would absorb nitrate as readily as they do

18:33 – 18:35

chloride, if not more so.

18:35 – 18:36

Yeah, I love that idea.

18:36 – 18:39

Yeah, and we see in hazelnuts where the

18:39 – 18:41

same thing happens where they just have so

18:41 – 18:43

much ammonium and Not enough nitrate.

18:43 – 18:46

And one of the things they do in hazelnuts

18:46 – 18:47

is they'll apply urea.

18:47 – 18:48

And you'll see this a lot.

18:48 – 18:51

Guys apply urea late in the season, but

18:51 – 18:53

they have no idea what the sugar status

18:53 – 18:56

is. And that's why you'll have people say,

18:56 – 18:58

like, sometimes we'll apply urea in the

18:58 – 18:59

fall and it seems to work.

18:59 – 19:02

And then sometimes we'll apply urea in the

19:02 – 19:04

fall and it just doesn't really seem to

19:04 – 19:07

work. And I think a lot of it has to do

19:07 – 19:10

with the carbon status, we can call it.

19:10 – 19:12

I'm saying sugar, but we're talking about

19:12 – 19:13

carbon, the carbon status.

19:13 – 19:15

And John, so many people think.

19:15 – 19:17

You know, John, so many people think about

19:17 – 19:20

the soil and carbon in the soil, and I

19:20 – 19:22

think about carbon in the plant and I

19:22 – 19:24

think about redox in the plant.

19:24 – 19:26

Like, those are the important things to

19:26 – 19:28

me. So let's dig into that a little bit.

19:28 – 19:30

You've been using the phrase sugar, but

19:30 – 19:33

how are you thinking about carbon and

19:33 – 19:34

redox in the plant?

19:34 – 19:37

You know, this is maybe a bit of a sidebar

19:37 – 19:40

question, but I want to get it out of my

19:40 – 19:41

head before I forget it.

19:41 – 19:43

Yeah. Earlier, you also mentioned people

19:43 – 19:44

describing the use of these various

19:44 – 19:46

nitrogen studies, nitrogen application

19:46 – 19:47

rates, but not taking into consideration

19:47 – 19:49

the trace mineral status of the plant.

19:50 – 19:54

And I think that's one of the things that

19:54 – 19:57

I found so intriguing is you, once you get

19:57 – 19:59

past a baseline level of performance, like

19:59 – 20:03

we all know that I'm just making up a

20:03 – 20:05

number here, there is this somewhat linear

20:05 – 20:08

increase in yield on, let's say, a corn

20:08 – 20:11

crop as you add more nitrogen up to 100

20:11 – 20:14

pounds per acre. And from that point

20:14 – 20:16

forward, it becomes nonlinear You don't

20:16 – 20:19

get, and you reach a threshold, you reach

20:19 – 20:22

a point where you don't get continued

20:22 – 20:23

increasing yields.

20:22 – 20:26

And it is at those levels, it's when you

20:26 – 20:28

cross that threshold from a linear yield

20:28 – 20:31

response to a nonlinear yield response,

20:31 – 20:33

where all of a sudden, trace minerals

20:33 – 20:35

start having this disproportionate effect,

20:35 – 20:37

where earlier, when the crop doesn't have

20:37 – 20:40

enough nitrogen. You might not get a large

20:40 – 20:43

yield effect from a molybdenum application

20:43 – 20:46

or a cobalt application but once you get

20:46 – 20:49

to that point all of a sudden it seems

20:49 – 20:51

your yield responses to the trace minerals

20:51 – 20:52

can be substantial.

20:53 – 20:55

They aren't always but sometimes they're

20:55 – 20:57

very substantial. I'd love to just get...

20:57 – 21:00

I haven't clearly formulated a question in

21:00 – 21:03

there but I'd like to get your reaction or

21:03 – 21:04

your reflection on that.

21:04 – 21:07

I don't know that I've actually Seen that

21:07 – 21:10

exactly, John. But what I have seen for

21:10 – 21:12

sure is spreading out your nitrogen, using

21:12 – 21:14

less nitrogen, using foliar nitrogen seems

21:14 – 21:16

to work way better.

21:16 – 21:19

Working with Bo, I've seen a lot of this

21:19 – 21:21

stuff, right? Where we're applying 20

21:21 – 21:24

pounds in the furrow and then another 20

21:24 – 21:26

pounds foliarly and getting 300 bushels.

21:26 – 21:28

And there's a lot of manuring.

21:28 – 21:31

You know, and there's a lot of manure in

21:31 – 21:34

the background there, but still it's only

21:34 – 21:36

40 pounds of applied nitrogen.

21:36 – 21:39

And a lot of people try to reduce their

21:39 – 21:41

nitrogen, but they're not thinking about

21:41 – 21:42

the trace minerals.

21:42 – 21:44

And so, you know, there's nitrogen

21:44 – 21:46

management, the form you're using, the

21:46 – 21:49

time you're putting it out and all these

21:49 – 21:52

things, but people don't focus on is that

21:52 – 21:54

nitrogen processing in the plant?

21:54 – 21:56

And usually it's not, we usually see huge

21:56 – 21:59

imbalances. And, you know, John, I think

21:59 – 22:02

the reason why you got hung up on the

22:02 – 22:05

nitrate thing or really interested in it

22:05 – 22:07

and thinking that that was, you know,

22:07 – 22:09

really important really important was

22:09 – 22:12

because when you see that you work on a

22:12 – 22:15

lot of like corn and you see corn out

22:15 – 22:18

there where the guys are putting so much

22:18 – 22:20

nitrogen on there that we do have.

22:20 – 22:23

That we have high nitrate and high

22:23 – 22:24

ammonia. Nitrate toxicity or nitrate

22:24 – 22:27

excess is a prevailing problem in many of

22:27 – 22:29

the growers that I worked with,

22:29 – 22:31

absolutely. Yeah, and so I don't deal with

22:31 – 22:34

that as much and I work with more organic

22:34 – 22:36

producers and their problem is not enough

22:36 – 22:39

nitrate. And I see that all the time in

22:39 – 22:42

organic farming. Where you have too much

22:42 – 22:43

ammonium and not enough nitrate.

22:43 – 22:45

And especially when you front loaded

22:45 – 22:48

organic nitrogen, we see a big spike of

22:48 – 22:50

ammonium as the soil warms up and very,

22:50 – 22:51

very little nitrate.

22:51 – 22:54

And so now we've got all this ammonium and

22:54 – 22:57

we need immediate sugar to deal with it,

22:57 – 22:58

to process it.

23:00 – 23:02

And the practical application solution for

23:02 – 23:05

that is putting on a foliar application of

23:05 – 23:08

sugar. Yes, and so we haven't changed

23:08 – 23:09

everything we're doing.

23:09 – 23:12

But we've just kind of added sugar.

23:12 – 23:15

So we're still focusing on all the

23:15 – 23:15

photosynthetic nutrients.

23:15 – 23:17

We're still floating, focusing on

23:17 – 23:20

manganese and iron, um, but adding a pound

23:20 – 23:24

or two of sugar or some type of sugar,

23:24 – 23:26

you know, there's, there's dextrose,

23:26 – 23:28

there's sorbitol. Um, we're playing around

23:28 – 23:31

with sorbitol in a cherry trees cause

23:31 – 23:34

that's the way they move their sugars

23:34 – 23:37

anyway. And what has the crop response

23:37 – 23:40

been to that? I don't know that I could

23:40 – 23:43

say that there's necessarily a yield

23:43 – 23:45

response yet, although we did do really

23:45 – 23:48

well out there at Orchard View this year.

23:48 – 23:52

I don't know whether we can attribute that

23:52 – 23:55

to the sugar or not, but we've definitely

23:55 – 23:57

seen the sugar come up, especially

23:57 – 23:59

starting early in the cherries.

23:59 – 24:02

The sugars come up to kind of normal

24:02 – 24:04

levels or what we call optimum levels.

24:04 – 24:07

The pH comes up and then the ammonium

24:07 – 24:09

processes. And then when the ammonium

24:09 – 24:11

processes, that allows the nitrate to kind

24:11 – 24:13

of move along too.

24:13 – 24:15

So the nitrate doesn't start piling up.

24:15 – 24:17

Any. What's the other thing?

24:17 – 24:19

We are seeing some better movement of

24:19 – 24:21

calcium into the new leaf.

24:21 – 24:23

I was just about to go there.

24:23 – 24:27

I was about to say, based on what you just

24:27 – 24:29

described, I mean, for people who aren't

24:29 – 24:32

familiar with sap analysis and who might

24:32 – 24:34

not be following along with what these

24:34 – 24:36

various nutritional changes mean, when you

24:36 – 24:39

say that the plant is able to metabolize

24:39 – 24:41

ammonium, that's a different way of saying

24:41 – 24:44

that all of a sudden the plant has.

24:44 – 24:46

A lot less stress.

24:46 – 24:48

And you described it earlier as this what

24:48 – 24:51

was it, the phrase that you used, an

24:51 – 24:52

ammonium tailspin?

24:53 – 24:54

Yeah, like a death spiral.

24:54 – 24:56

Yeah. I like tailspin, though.

24:56 – 24:59

That's good. But you've essentially taken

24:59 – 25:01

it out of that cycle.

25:01 – 25:03

And now you've just greatly reduced the

25:03 – 25:06

amount of stress that that plant is going

25:06 – 25:08

to experience going forward.

25:08 – 25:11

It's not just a one day response, but it

25:11 – 25:13

has this long term consequences.

25:13 – 25:16

And now all of that energy Previously was

25:16 – 25:19

being depleted to try to tolerate the

25:19 – 25:22

stress is being used to serve useful

25:22 – 25:25

purposes. So the net effect is a plant

25:25 – 25:27

that has a lot more energy.

25:27 – 25:28

Yep, that's right.

25:28 – 25:32

And so then you can move calcium into the

25:32 – 25:35

new leaf. And we see this all the time

25:35 – 25:37

where guys will have tons of calcium in

25:37 – 25:39

the old leaf and it'll look great.

25:39 – 25:42

And then the new leaf only has a few

25:42 – 25:43

hundred parts per million.

25:43 – 25:46

And the typical thing people want to do is

25:46 – 25:48

put on more and more calcium.

25:48 – 25:49

But that's not the answer.

25:49 – 25:50

And it doesn't work.

25:50 – 25:53

It just costs a lot of money in foliar

25:53 – 25:56

calcium. And really what they need to be

25:56 – 25:58

doing is looking at their sugar and their

25:58 – 26:00

boron and making sure that those are good.

26:00 – 26:02

Now I'm curious, you've just started

26:02 – 26:04

looking at this and playing around with

26:04 – 26:07

it, but one of the things that we know, we

26:07 – 26:10

know that we have these handful of

26:10 – 26:12

varieties of apples that don't do a good

26:12 – 26:14

job of moving calcium and it's also, it

26:14 – 26:16

occurs in some environmental conditions in

26:16 – 26:17

grapes and so forth.

26:17 – 26:20

And historically we've made that or tried

26:20 – 26:22

to manage it somewhat with potassium and

26:22 – 26:23

manganese relationships and boron

26:23 – 26:25

relationships, which has had some degree

26:25 – 26:27

of success. Have you observed any

26:27 – 26:28

additional degrees of success with

26:28 – 26:30

managing sugar levels above and beyond

26:30 – 26:32

that? Josh, I'm trying to think.

26:32 – 26:34

I don't know that I've seen it in apples

26:34 – 26:37

so much, but it would make sense that it

26:37 – 26:38

would work.

26:39 – 26:41

I know that Stephen tried some Stephen

26:41 – 26:44

Barrelink tried some dextrose last year,

26:44 – 26:47

or maybe he tried sorbitol, but he didn't

26:47 – 26:50

do it. He did, I think you can do too

26:50 – 26:53

high rates and not get the effect that

26:53 – 26:54

you're looking for.

26:54 – 26:56

You can overdo it.

26:56 – 26:59

And Stephen would never be the guy to

26:59 – 27:00

overdo it. Yeah, yeah, right.

27:00 – 27:04

But gosh, I don't want to say that I've

27:04 – 27:05

seen it in apples yet.

27:05 – 27:08

I think it's too early to tell.

27:08 – 27:10

Yeah. But in cherries for sure.

27:10 – 27:13

And then the other thing that we expect to

27:13 – 27:16

see, and I think we're seeing.

27:16 – 27:19

It some in cherries, is the ability to

27:19 – 27:21

reduce nitrogen, or sorry, to reduce iron

27:21 – 27:23

and be able to uptake iron.

27:23 – 27:25

That's a big deal.

27:25 – 27:27

Yeah, and the same thing happens with

27:27 – 27:30

iron, right? Where you just throw tons and

27:30 – 27:34

tons of iron at it and you really don't

27:34 – 27:35

see the levels come up.

27:35 – 27:38

And we need to reduce, you know, with

27:38 – 27:40

broadleaf plants anyway, we need to

27:40 – 27:43

reduce, you know, iron down in the roots.

27:43 – 27:47

So we need to send sugars down there and

27:47 – 27:50

make it, ATP and NADPH in order to take in

27:50 – 27:53

FE2. Yeah. You know what's fascinating to

27:53 – 27:55

me about this conversation, Jim, is I'm

27:55 – 27:58

always intrigued by these plants' ability

27:58 – 28:01

to take a relatively minute amount of an

28:01 – 28:03

input and it completely changes what can

28:03 – 28:05

happen in an entire field.

28:05 – 28:07

And I've talked about this phenomenon in

28:07 – 28:10

regards to putting on a few grams per acre

28:10 – 28:13

of a trace mineral like molybdenum or

28:13 – 28:15

selenium or something like that or cobalt.

28:15 – 28:17

But when you think about the total

28:17 – 28:20

quantity of sugar that a crop produces in

28:20 – 28:23

a given day, say a cherry crop, and I've

28:23 – 28:26

done the math on this, it's been a while

28:26 – 28:28

since I've looked at these numbers

28:28 – 28:31

closely, but let's just say an acre of

28:31 – 28:33

cherry trees produces some in the

28:33 – 28:35

neighborhood of I don't know 20 to 25

28:35 – 28:37

pounds of sugars a day.

28:37 – 28:40

It's probably more than that but let's use

28:40 – 28:42

that as a starting point for the

28:42 – 28:44

conversation. And then you're putting on a

28:44 – 28:47

foliar Spray that is a fraction of that.

28:47 – 28:50

It's a pound or two pounds an acre.

28:50 – 28:52

And you ask yourself the question well,

28:52 – 28:54

what difference can that make?

28:54 – 28:56

Yep. But it actually makes a tremendous

28:56 – 28:58

difference because it's enough to push it

28:58 – 28:59

across a threshold.

28:59 – 29:01

It's a threshold change.

29:01 – 29:04

It's like a step change instead of just a

29:04 – 29:05

linear increase. Yep, that's right.

29:05 – 29:09

And so now I look at how I'm making my

29:09 – 29:11

foliars and it's less about putting giant

29:11 – 29:12

slugs of certain nutrients.

29:13 – 29:15

And more about making sure the sugars are

29:15 – 29:18

right. And then, you know, obviously we're

29:18 – 29:20

using ocean materials and things.

29:20 – 29:23

But then just kind of like Trying to

29:23 – 29:25

signal or prime the plant a little bit

29:25 – 29:28

with these nutrients, instead of saying

29:28 – 29:30

like, I'm going to supply all the

29:30 – 29:33

molybdenum that this plant needs kind of

29:33 – 29:35

thing. Well, my guess would be, you know,

29:35 – 29:38

I've had these experiences a number of

29:38 – 29:41

times over the years where, and I'm sure

29:41 – 29:43

that you have as well.

29:43 – 29:45

Sometimes you, it has seemed that you just

29:45 – 29:48

hit on a magical combination or something,

29:48 – 29:50

where the response that you got was

29:50 – 29:52

entirely disproportionate to what you

29:52 – 29:55

applied. I still remember this is probably

29:55 – 29:57

now close to 20 years ago.

29:57 – 29:59

This one tomato greenhouse that had

29:59 – 30:01

serious issues with spider mites.

30:01 – 30:03

They were jolly elf grape tomatoes, which

30:03 – 30:06

are long since obsolete, but they were

30:06 – 30:07

very spider mites susceptible.

30:07 – 30:10

They had major problems with spider mites.

30:10 – 30:12

And this particular greenhouse had very

30:12 – 30:14

depressed levels of metals across the

30:14 – 30:16

board just zinc, manganese, copper, iron,

30:16 – 30:18

everything was just in the tank.

30:18 – 30:21

And they put on a foliar application of

30:21 – 30:22

sea stim and cobalt.

30:22 – 30:25

And I think there were some other things

30:25 – 30:28

in there. I forget what the total

30:28 – 30:32

combination was, but it was the sea stim

30:32 – 30:35

and the cobalt that were really carrying

30:35 – 30:38

the weight, I think, because they did

30:38 – 30:40

other applications without those and

30:40 – 30:41

didn't get the response.

30:41 – 30:44

But what happened is we had previously

30:44 – 30:48

made lots of applications to the soil and

30:48 – 30:51

to foliar applications and not seen real

30:51 – 30:53

significant response on the trace

30:53 – 30:56

minerals. But we put on that application,

30:56 – 30:58

and zinc, manganese, iron, copper,

30:58 – 31:02

everything up came up in sap by not

31:02 – 31:04

small amounts. It doubled and tripled,

31:04 – 31:07

some cases increased 4x, and we hadn't

31:07 – 31:09

applied a single gram.

31:09 – 31:12

Wow. And so, what you're describing sounds

31:12 – 31:15

to me like one more dimension and one

31:15 – 31:18

more facet to consider where you make

31:18 – 31:20

those types of responses.

31:20 – 31:23

You can get those types of responses more

31:23 – 31:26

consistently and they're not just

31:26 – 31:28

occasional outliers that you wish you

31:28 – 31:31

could replicate. Yeah, yeah, that's right.

31:31 – 31:34

The way I look at SAP now, John,

31:34 – 31:38

is less about looking at the levels of

31:38 – 31:40

individual nutrients and how we might

31:40 – 31:44

bring those up and looking at SAP to

31:44 – 31:47

to get an idea of how the plan

31:47 – 31:48

Metabolism is functioning.

31:48 – 31:51

And so it's really, it's a little

31:51 – 31:55

embarrassing for me to say, even just all

31:55 – 31:58

this stuff. Like, I just feel like, God, I

31:58 – 32:00

should have thought of this a long time

32:00 – 32:03

ago. But sometimes it takes a long time to

32:03 – 32:04

put things together.

32:04 – 32:06

Sometimes you're so deep in the weeds, you

32:06 – 32:09

forget to see the forest for the trees.

32:09 – 32:11

Yep. Yep. Shoot, I lost my train of

32:11 – 32:13

thought where I was going with that.

32:13 – 32:15

Well, you started talking about.

32:15 – 32:16

How you're using SAP analysis differently

32:16 – 32:19

today and you're looking at it from a

32:19 – 32:20

plant metabolism perspective.

32:20 – 32:21

Yeah, right, exactly, yeah.

32:21 – 32:24

So, we used to really not pay attention as

32:24 – 32:26

much to the first three things on, the

32:26 – 32:28

first three measurements on SAP analysis,

32:28 – 32:30

which are your sugars, your pH and your

32:30 – 32:31

EC.

32:31 – 32:34

And now those are some of the most

32:34 – 32:36

important things on the SAP committee.

32:36 – 32:38

Like that's what I really care about.

32:38 – 32:41

And what SAP analysis, what I use it for

32:41 – 32:43

now is finding the metabolic bottlenecks

32:43 – 32:46

in the plant. And looking at the plant at

32:46 – 32:48

the foundational level of getting things

32:48 – 32:49

right with the metabolism.

32:49 – 32:52

And so I'm talking about making sugar and

32:52 – 32:54

making proteins or making glutamate, you

32:54 – 32:56

know, as our simple kind of currency on

32:56 – 32:58

the protein side of things.

32:58 – 33:00

And when you get those right, then other

33:00 – 33:03

things in the plant can be right.

33:03 – 33:05

But, you know, when those aren't right and

33:05 – 33:08

you're like, oh, I need more calcium or I

33:08 – 33:11

need more phosphorus, I don't really even

33:11 – 33:12

think about phosphorus.

33:12 – 33:14

Phosphorus to me is like something that

33:14 – 33:16

usually just comes along when everything

33:16 – 33:18

else is right. Well, essentially, what

33:18 – 33:20

you're saying is if those foundational

33:20 – 33:22

things aren't right, trying to fix

33:22 – 33:24

nutrient imbalances is like trying to roll

33:24 – 33:26

a heavy rock up a hill.

33:27 – 33:28

And it's just difficult.

33:28 – 33:30

It doesn't work. You're constantly

33:30 – 33:32

struggling. And if you get those things

33:32 – 33:35

right, then the system starts to flow.

33:35 – 33:37

Yep. You get sugar flow, you get nutrient

33:37 – 33:40

flow, you get movement much more easily.

33:40 – 33:41

That's what I'm talking about.

33:41 – 33:44

Yeah. Oh, this is exciting to them.

33:44 – 33:46

Yeah. Well, this is exciting, Jim.

33:46 – 33:48

You know, it's like, yeah, we look back

33:48 – 33:51

and say, well, why didn't I think of that

33:51 – 33:54

a long time ago? But the reality is that's

33:54 – 33:56

learning and growing and we're constantly

33:56 – 33:59

all doing it. And just think about how

33:59 – 34:01

many people aren't thinking about these

34:01 – 34:02

things yet at all.

34:02 – 34:04

Right. They're not even thinking about

34:04 – 34:07

what we were thinking five years ago or 10

34:07 – 34:09

years ago. Yep. What's interesting is in

34:09 – 34:11

agriculture, we're applying nitrogen.

34:11 – 34:13

We're thinking so much about nitrogen, and

34:13 – 34:15

then we're just expecting the plant to

34:15 – 34:18

take care of everything on the sugar side.

34:18 – 34:22

And I think what a lot of people don't

34:22 – 34:25

understand is we need sugars to make

34:25 – 34:28

carbon skeletons is a critical thing in

34:28 – 34:29

order to process ammonium.

34:29 – 34:32

And when we have so much nitrogen out

34:32 – 34:36

there, we just use up all our sugars.

34:36 – 34:39

Farmers create their own problems in most

34:39 – 34:40

cases, especially conventional farmers.

34:40 – 34:44

And they think of lots of nitrogen as kind

34:44 – 34:46

of an insurance policy.

34:46 – 34:49

How much could this, I don't ever tell my

34:49 – 34:51

students to do this.

34:51 – 34:52

Carbon with nitrogen?

34:52 – 34:56

I don't ever tell people to apply nitrogen

34:56 – 34:58

now, even if it's amino nitrogen, because

34:58 – 35:02

some of those things have to be reanimated

35:02 – 35:04

and transanimated and that creates

35:04 – 35:07

ammonium. I don't ever talk about nitrogen

35:07 – 35:10

now unless I'm talking about adding sugar

35:10 – 35:13

with nitrogen. And what about for soil

35:13 – 35:14

applications, specifically for producing

35:14 – 35:16

corn, side grass, planting?

35:16 – 35:18

Are you adding nitrogen there?

35:18 – 35:22

I don't know yet. John, although I did see

35:22 – 35:23

something really interesting recently

35:23 – 35:26

putting sugar through the pivot and it

35:26 – 35:28

worked really, really well.

35:28 – 35:32

So I can't imagine that was just from the

35:32 – 35:34

water hitting the leaves and the sugar

35:34 – 35:36

changing things on the leaves.

35:36 – 35:40

It had to have done something in the soil.

35:40 – 35:44

You know what I see all the time, like

35:44 – 35:47

on young wheat, spring wheat, or winter

35:47 – 35:49

wheat coming out of the winter?

35:49 – 35:52

There's no nitrate and there's ammonium

35:52 – 35:54

through the roof and there's no sugar.

35:54 – 35:57

And I see that all the time.

35:57 – 36:00

It causes lots of I mean, that's the

36:00 – 36:03

foundation of all the health problems that

36:03 – 36:06

winter wheat has coming out of the winter.

36:06 – 36:09

Yeah, and so people plant their spring

36:09 – 36:12

wheat with. Molasses a lot of times, and I

36:12 – 36:15

think that the thing to plant with might

36:15 – 36:18

be dextrose because we're not talking

36:18 – 36:19

about feeding. The microbiology we're

36:19 – 36:21

talking about feeding the plant.

36:21 – 36:24

And with molasses, we have all these

36:24 – 36:27

enzymatic steps that we have to do.

36:27 – 36:30

And with dextrose, the plant can just take

36:30 – 36:33

it right up. I had an important question

36:33 – 36:36

for you. I need to, at some point, once

36:36 – 36:40

we have more data, I need to have Jordan

36:40 – 36:43

Longberg on here to talk about some of the

36:43 – 36:46

data that they're seeing where they are

36:46 – 36:49

very clearly observing that as they are

36:49 – 36:52

using sugars and not just sugars, but

36:52 – 36:53

overall nutrition management, they're

36:53 – 36:55

seeing these clear fluctuations in soil

36:55 – 36:57

microbial respiration from foliar

36:57 – 36:58

applications of nutrients.

36:58 – 37:01

Putting on a foliar application and three

37:01 – 37:04

to five days later there's this, if my

37:04 – 37:06

memory serves me correctly, there's this

37:06 – 37:09

tremendous spike and surge of carbon

37:09 – 37:11

dioxide released from the soil and

37:11 – 37:13

increased carbon dioxide absorption by the

37:13 – 37:14

plant.

37:14 – 37:17

So and that is they're including if I'm

37:17 – 37:19

not mistaken They're including sugars with

37:19 – 37:20

their foliar applications in those

37:20 – 37:22

regards, and they're seeing very positive

37:22 – 37:23

responses from that.

37:23 – 37:26

And so this is some of the successes that

37:26 – 37:28

we've observed is we're seeing these soil

37:28 – 37:30

microbial responses in response to foliar

37:30 – 37:32

applications when we address the carbon

37:32 – 37:33

status of the plant.

37:33 – 37:35

Yeah, it makes sense because, you know,

37:35 – 37:38

root exudates are way down on the list of

37:38 – 37:41

what the plant is going to use its sugars

37:41 – 37:44

for if it doesn't have enough sugars to do

37:44 – 37:46

the most important things, staying alive

37:46 – 37:48

and processing nitrogen, it's not going to

37:48 – 37:50

send anything down to the roots or Not

37:50 – 37:53

very much. And all this stuff is dynamic.

37:53 – 37:55

Like we're looking at a snapshot in the

37:55 – 37:58

morning that we pulled on the sap.

37:58 – 38:00

So you might have low sugars at that

38:00 – 38:03

point, but maybe later in the day you have

38:03 – 38:04

higher sugar, better sugars.

38:05 – 38:07

Although if it's going to be hot, it's

38:07 – 38:09

going to be 100 degrees, then you're not

38:09 – 38:11

going to be making sugar.

38:11 – 38:14

And I think these are the places where we

38:14 – 38:16

can really help the plant out when we have

38:16 – 38:18

these high stress situations, whether it's

38:18 – 38:20

drought or clouds or out here.

38:20 – 38:22

We have wildfire smoke sometimes, that's

38:22 – 38:24

all going to limit your photosynthesis.

38:24 – 38:26

So we had started, I think at some point

38:26 – 38:29

in the conversation, I asked you about the

38:29 – 38:30

crop responses that you've observed.

38:30 – 38:33

You said that it's kind of premature, you

38:33 – 38:35

haven't really observed a lot of yield

38:35 – 38:37

responses yet, but you are seeing these

38:37 – 38:39

metabolic changes which lead to better

38:39 – 38:39

nutrient absorption.

38:39 – 38:42

So it seems to me that it's going to be

38:42 – 38:44

somewhat inevitable that at some point

38:44 – 38:46

you're going to see quality improvements

38:46 – 38:47

and yield responses.

38:47 – 38:49

I think so, yeah. You know, I was talking

38:49 – 38:52

to our friend Keith Mortar and he was

38:52 – 38:55

telling me how he had a friend with winter

38:55 – 38:57

wheat and it came up all yellow and you

38:57 – 39:00

know, I think it had snowed on top of it

39:00 – 39:02

and everything else and it just didn't

39:02 – 39:05

look great. And you know, a lot of guys

39:05 – 39:06

will go out there and put nitrogen on,

39:06 – 39:08

that's the first thing they're going to

39:08 – 39:10

do. And the plant is already swamped with

39:10 – 39:11

ammonium and then you go out there and put

39:11 – 39:13

nitrogen on it and just make it worse.

39:13 – 39:15

And Keith advised this guy, I was Talking

39:15 – 39:16

to Keith about the sugar thing, and he was

39:16 – 39:19

telling me how he had done some of it, but

39:19 – 39:20

he had used molasses and dextrose might

39:20 – 39:21

have been a better option here.

39:21 – 39:23

But he had told his friend to put molasses

39:23 – 39:25

out there, I think a quart per acre, and

39:25 – 39:26

it totally turned it around.

39:26 – 39:29

So we've seen it work, you know.

39:29 – 39:33

But in terms of like, I'll just tell you

39:33 – 39:35

the story a quart per acre.

39:35 – 39:37

That's like, that's nothing.

39:37 – 39:38

It's crazy, right?

39:38 – 39:39

Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah.

39:39 – 39:43

Wow. A lot of it is just, you know,

39:43 – 39:46

the plant is stuck and we're trying to

39:46 – 39:48

unstick it. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

39:48 – 39:50

It's a trigger. Yeah.

39:50 – 39:51

This is awesome, Jim.

39:51 – 39:53

I'm enjoying this conversation.

39:53 – 39:56

What else have you been having fun with?

39:56 – 39:59

Oh, gosh. Well, you've seen the cherries

39:59 – 40:00

out there at Mike's.

40:00 – 40:03

Yeah, I saw some of those social posts.

40:03 – 40:06

Like, that is just, this is incredible.

40:06 – 40:08

Oh, my gosh. It's nuts.

40:08 – 40:12

We actually, we had one friend of mine on

40:12 – 40:13

social media respond.

40:13 – 40:16

He said, Well what kind of cherries are

40:16 – 40:18

these? Are these sour cherries like

40:18 – 40:20

Montmorency's? Because sweet cherries

40:20 – 40:22

don't cluster up like that.

40:22 – 40:25

It's like, Oh, yeah, these are sweet

40:25 – 40:25

cherries. Yeah.

40:26 – 40:29

Well, Mike told me he was going to slit my

40:29 – 40:30

throat or anybody's throat that mentioned

40:30 – 40:31

what variety it is.

40:31 – 40:33

You know, Mike had the trial, the OSU

40:33 – 40:35

trial, out of the cemetery block forever.

40:35 – 40:38

So he got to see what worked the best,

40:38 – 40:40

what trees did the best out there.

40:40 – 40:41

But they're newer varieties.

40:41 – 40:42

There's some newer varieties that are

40:42 – 40:43

really precocious.

40:43 – 40:45

You know, they're going to give you a good

40:45 – 40:47

crop year three, year four.

40:47 – 40:49

I think those trees are five years old.

40:49 – 40:52

And even last year we got it was 10 tons

40:52 – 40:54

out there. And you know, we kind of did

40:54 – 40:56

the same thing last year, but this year is

40:56 – 40:57

arguably better.

40:58 – 41:00

You know, what's we're snapping branches

41:00 – 41:03

out there, yeah. You told me last year was

41:03 – 41:05

the cherry crop of a lifetime, yep, that's

41:05 – 41:08

right, yep, yep. You know, I'm lucky in

41:08 – 41:10

that I work with some of the best farmers,

41:10 – 41:13

and you know, working for AEA, we kind of

41:13 – 41:14

attract those type of people.

41:14 – 41:16

Um, so you know, I can't take.

41:16 – 41:19

The credit or, you know, even a large

41:19 – 41:21

portion of it, but definitely what we do

41:21 – 41:22

with Mike's component.

41:22 – 41:23

Yeah. Yeah. It's huge.

41:23 – 41:26

It's huge. And, you know, he's even got a,

41:26 – 41:28

you know, Javier out there that does such

41:28 – 41:31

a good job pruning, you know, and Michael

41:31 – 41:33

talk about how, you know, there's a three

41:33 – 41:35

legged stool with pruning and irrigation

41:35 – 41:37

and nutrition that kind of produces a good

41:37 – 41:38

crop.

41:38 – 41:40

And we've done, you know, pretty minor

41:40 – 41:43

things compared to what we did in the past

41:43 – 41:45

because we're doing these blends now and

41:45 – 41:47

the blends appear to Perform better than

41:47 – 41:48

the products themselves.

41:48 – 41:51

So we can use smaller amounts of nutrients

41:51 – 41:54

and get the same effect as we would if we

41:54 – 41:55

used twice as much.

41:55 – 41:58

All right. We need to talk about this a

41:58 – 42:00

bit because there's lots of people that we

42:00 – 42:03

work with as customers who aren't using

42:03 – 42:04

blends for logistical reasons and so

42:04 – 42:07

forth. So when you describe using blends,

42:07 – 42:08

what are you talking about exactly?

42:08 – 42:11

And how is it different from just tank

42:11 – 42:12

mixing a combination?

42:12 – 42:15

I think there's just, you know, we use a

42:15 – 42:17

bubble trailer, you know, like a ball

42:17 – 42:20

tank, and we pump that stuff around and it

42:20 – 42:22

just mixes really well, pulls out any

42:22 – 42:24

solids that are in there and just cleans

42:24 – 42:27

up the product. And then we'll put some

42:27 – 42:29

sugar in there with it and blend it all

42:29 – 42:32

up. And it just must be that effect of

42:32 – 42:33

just mixing it all up together.

42:33 – 42:35

I wonder if it's the combination effect of

42:35 – 42:38

mixing it all up together plus giving it a

42:38 – 42:39

little bit of time.

42:39 – 42:41

That could be. Yep, that could be.

42:41 – 42:43

But for some reason, it appears to be

42:43 – 42:44

different than tank mixing.

42:44 – 42:47

Because there's how much of a time delay

42:47 – 42:49

is there from the time that you're mixing

42:49 – 42:50

it until it gets applied?

42:50 – 42:53

I'm sure there's. It could be as short as

42:53 – 42:55

two days, but it could be up to a week,

42:55 – 42:58

you know? And can you elaborate a little

42:58 – 43:00

bit more on what are the effects that

43:00 – 43:02

you're seeing compared to just putting a

43:02 – 43:03

tank mix together on farm?

43:03 – 43:06

We just, you know, in the past, we would

43:06 – 43:07

use quart rates of almost everything

43:07 – 43:09

except for maybe molybdenum and cobalt.

43:09 – 43:11

We would use, you know, pint rates of

43:11 – 43:13

that. And we would do foliars that were

43:13 – 43:16

probably You know 50 60 bucks, and um,

43:16 – 43:17

they would work well.

43:17 – 43:19

And they'd move the sap, we'd see that

43:19 – 43:21

we'd see it, you know, the levels come up

43:21 – 43:22

on the sap.

43:23 – 43:26

But now we do quite a bit less foliars

43:26 – 43:29

that are less than 25, and we see the same

43:29 – 43:32

kind of movement that we used to with

43:32 – 43:34

higher rates. And you're attributing a lot

43:34 – 43:37

of that to just the blending and the pre

43:37 – 43:38

mixing, I think so.

43:38 – 43:41

Yeah, I don't know, But honestly, plus the

43:41 – 43:43

sugars. Yeah, and the sugars, But we were

43:43 – 43:46

blending without sugars and it was working

43:46 – 43:48

last year. So it's not just the sugars.

43:48 – 43:51

It couldn't have happened at a better time

43:51 – 43:53

for us because, you know, farmers are

43:53 – 43:55

struggling. It's tough out there.

43:55 – 43:58

And for us to be able to lower our prices

43:58 – 44:00

to get the same effect has been pretty

44:00 – 44:03

huge. It's kept us on a lot of acreage.

44:03 – 44:04

Yeah, that's substantial.

44:04 – 44:07

Yeah, this is we can subject I got another

44:07 – 44:09

one if you're ready.

44:09 – 44:11

Yeah, let's go. Well, so we're doing the

44:11 – 44:14

pinion trial out there at Mike's and it's

44:14 – 44:16

too early to say, Mike's not claiming

44:16 – 44:18

victory yet because we haven't harvested

44:18 – 44:21

that block, but it's been-- It's gonna be

44:21 – 44:23

what, a week or two away at this point,

44:23 – 44:26

right? Probably a week, yeah, within a

44:26 – 44:29

week. And so, gosh, what are we seeing?

44:29 – 44:31

Over the course of the season, we've

44:31 – 44:33

looked at it every single week and one

44:33 – 44:36

week the control might look a little bit

44:36 – 44:39

better and this is a heavy fungicide you

44:39 – 44:41

know, situation where, you know, it's

44:41 – 44:42

getting fungicides every two weeks.

44:42 – 44:44

You have a highly susceptible variety

44:44 – 44:46

super, super susceptible in a susceptible

44:46 – 44:48

area in a susceptible year.

44:48 – 44:51

You know, we got pounded by a half an inch

44:51 – 44:53

of rain during harvest, during Chelan

44:53 – 44:56

harvest. And no, it's been a perfect year

44:56 – 44:56

from powdery mildew.

44:56 – 44:59

And so it's been kind of back and forth

44:59 – 45:02

where, you know, the pinion side will look

45:02 – 45:05

a little bit better or the control side

45:05 – 45:07

will look a little bit better.

45:07 – 45:09

But honestly, there hasn't been a huge

45:09 – 45:10

amount of difference.

45:10 – 45:13

The thing that we noticed is that on the

45:13 – 45:15

pinion side, the mildew appears to be less

45:15 – 45:18

active. It appears to be kind of like

45:18 – 45:21

dead, like it just looks gray or brown and

45:21 – 45:23

flat instead of white and fluffy.

45:23 – 45:26

And on the control side, I think we found

45:26 – 45:28

a little bit more white and fluffy stuff.

45:28 – 45:30

And so, really, it's all a race.

45:30 – 45:33

It's a race to harvest the crop before

45:33 – 45:36

powdery mildew gets into the fruit and

45:36 – 45:39

ruins the fruit. And so, this season, oh

45:39 – 45:40

gosh, what's happened out there?

45:40 – 45:43

There's been some challenges getting the

45:43 – 45:44

fruit harvested on time.

45:44 – 45:47

And so the fruit's hanging for a long

45:47 – 45:49

time. And we're starting to get powdery

45:49 – 45:51

mildew into the fruit.

45:51 – 45:54

And so there's a little bit of powdery

45:54 – 45:57

mildew in the fruit on the pinion side,

45:57 – 45:59

and there's a little bit on the control

45:59 – 46:02

side. There might be more on the control

46:02 – 46:05

side. And the stuff that we're seeing on

46:05 – 46:08

the pinion side isn't fluffy and white, it

46:08 – 46:10

doesn't appear to be moving.

46:10 – 46:13

And just to be clear, the control side is

46:13 – 46:14

a fungicide control, right?

46:14 – 46:17

It's a fungicide control, yeah yep.

46:17 – 46:19

And, you know, powdery mildew is such a

46:19 – 46:21

problem in cherries.

46:21 – 46:23

I work on thousands and thousands of acres

46:23 – 46:26

of organic apples, thousands of acres of

46:26 – 46:27

organic blueberries.

46:27 – 46:30

And I think we work on like three acres of

46:30 – 46:33

organic cherries and we work on thousands

46:33 – 46:34

of acres of conventional cherries.

46:34 – 46:37

And there's hasn't been a good price

46:37 – 46:39

premium, but it's also so challenging to

46:39 – 46:42

grow cherries in this area organically

46:42 – 46:43

because of powdery mildew.

46:43 – 46:46

And so if you had told me that we could

46:46 – 46:49

stop powdery mildew, what opinion, I would

46:49 – 46:52

have told you, you're out of your mind.

46:52 – 46:55

And every week that I go in there, except

46:55 – 46:58

now, you know, I keep on seeing it, but

46:58 – 47:01

when, you know, for the first week, I was

47:01 – 47:04

like, this isn't going to work, you know,

47:04 – 47:05

it's amazing, John.

47:05 – 47:08

And, you know, I don't want to sound like

47:08 – 47:10

I'm going off the rails here and being

47:10 – 47:13

hyperbolic, but it's one of the biggest

47:13 – 47:14

things in agriculture right now.

47:14 – 47:17

It's one of the hugest things I've ever

47:17 – 47:18

seen in agriculture.

47:18 – 47:20

You're referring specifically to powdery

47:20 – 47:22

mildew across all types of crops?

47:22 – 47:25

Yep. Yep. And then we don't even know what

47:25 – 47:27

else pinion will work on.

47:27 – 47:29

And now my understanding is we're seeing

47:29 – 47:31

crop health response as well.

47:31 – 47:32

So that's pretty interesting.

47:32 – 47:34

Well, I was intrigued at first.

47:35 – 47:36

People were responding pressure

47:36 – 47:38

disappearing in response to opinion

47:38 – 47:40

applications and I was like yeah well

47:40 – 47:41

what's that all about?

47:41 – 47:43

Yeah. How does that work?

47:43 – 47:46

And it didn't make sense to me, but it

47:46 – 47:48

started showing up as a pattern so

47:48 – 47:51

consistently that, uh, I shouldn't say a

47:51 – 47:53

consistent pattern, but we definitely, we

47:53 – 47:55

got enough phone calls about it and enough

47:55 – 47:58

responses from it that I started digging

47:58 – 48:01

into some of the mechanisms of why and how

48:01 – 48:02

that might be happening.

48:02 – 48:04

And yeah, it's don't have enough

48:04 – 48:07

experience with it yet to be able to offer

48:07 – 48:09

any types of predictions or forecasting

48:09 – 48:11

but it definitely is a thing.

48:12 – 48:16

Yep, I want to see how it works on things

48:16 – 48:18

like Cherry leaf spot, fire blight, white

48:18 – 48:20

mold, and potatoes and things.

48:20 – 48:24

I've got a lot of people that want to try

48:24 – 48:26

it, even in conventional ag.

48:26 – 48:28

Yeah. On this pinion testing that you've

48:28 – 48:31

been doing on the cherries, what have the

48:31 – 48:32

application rates been?

48:32 – 48:35

Everything's going out at 200 gallons.

48:35 – 48:38

So it would be two gallons to make a 2

48:38 – 48:41

and it's happening every two weeks.

48:41 – 48:43

Two gallons. And so that, sorry?

48:43 – 48:46

Two gallons at 200 would make a 1 Yeah.

48:46 – 48:48

Sorry. Thank you. Yeah.

48:48 – 48:50

Man, I'm messing up on math.

48:50 – 48:51

Jeez, simple math.

48:51 – 48:53

Come on, guy. 1 Yeah.

48:53 – 48:56

And I think that's what we've been

48:56 – 48:58

recommending for people to do.

48:58 – 49:00

Yeah. And then that's going out, John,

49:00 – 49:04

with that gallon of blend that we make and

49:04 – 49:07

urea. And I think Mike would tell you that

49:07 – 49:11

the key to a lot of his success is the

49:11 – 49:13

combination of fertigation and foliar

49:13 – 49:14

together, those two things.

49:14 – 49:17

And we saw it this, this with Mike's

49:17 – 49:18

neighbor, Stacey Cooper.

49:18 – 49:22

Stacey had a block of Skeena, I think they

49:22 – 49:24

were, and they weren't really growing.

49:24 – 49:26

The fruit was exposed, the fruit was

49:26 – 49:29

small, and there was lots of it.

49:29 – 49:32

And Mike convinced her to do some

49:32 – 49:33

fertigation along with her foliars.

49:33 – 49:35

And I just couldn't believe the response.

49:35 – 49:38

I mean, over the course of a couple of

49:38 – 49:41

weeks, she had three foot shoots, all the

49:41 – 49:43

fruit was shaded, and It was big.

49:43 – 49:46

It all sized up, you know nine, 10 row

49:46 – 49:48

fruit. Wow. So, when you say fritigations

49:48 – 49:50

in combination with foliars, are you

49:50 – 49:52

referring specifically to timing sequence

49:52 – 49:54

that they should be timed together?

49:54 – 49:56

Are you just referring to using them in

49:56 – 49:57

conjunction with each other?

49:57 – 50:00

I'm not sure. I think that the timing

50:00 – 50:02

thing, I think there's something there.

50:02 – 50:04

And I'm pretty sure Mike does that.

50:04 – 50:07

You have to have him on here again soon

50:07 – 50:08

and pick his brain.

50:08 – 50:11

But I think that's part of his plan.

50:11 – 50:14

I think that's part of his plan is the

50:14 – 50:16

timing of it, but I don't know exactly

50:16 – 50:17

what it is.

50:18 – 50:21

Yeah, I'm supposed to talk to Mike in a

50:21 – 50:24

couple hours, so. Oh, really cool, nice,

50:24 – 50:25

awesome. Yeah. Yeah, neat.

50:25 – 50:28

Yeah, so what, have you been, are you

50:28 – 50:30

running trials on opinion anywhere else

50:30 – 50:32

other than the Cherries?

50:32 – 50:35

I think that's all we're doing out here.

50:35 – 50:37

No, it's not registered in Washington yet,

50:37 – 50:40

and that's where a lot of our work was.

50:40 – 50:43

Or is. We have people, even old customers

50:43 – 50:46

that we don't necessarily work a lot with

50:46 – 50:48

now, calling and asking about it.

50:48 – 50:52

So we have a lot of places to sell it

50:52 – 50:55

in Washington and Idaho once it becomes,

50:55 – 50:56

once it's registered.

50:56 – 50:58

Yeah. You know, I'm really excited about

50:58 – 51:01

Pinon in part for the success that it's

51:01 – 51:04

having and the consistency of success, but

51:04 – 51:06

also in part because I'm looking forward

51:06 – 51:08

to people realizing the consequences, the

51:08 – 51:12

results a year or two down the road when

51:12 – 51:14

there are less fungicide applications on

51:14 – 51:16

the soil. Right. Because I've seen that

51:16 – 51:20

now in a couple of operations where all of

51:20 – 51:22

a sudden soil biology comes alive and

51:22 – 51:24

plant nutrient absorption in the soil

51:24 – 51:27

just, again, it's like it crosses a

51:27 – 51:29

threshold and it becomes completely

51:29 – 51:31

different once you no longer have that

51:31 – 51:33

continual hammering of fungicide

51:33 – 51:34

application on the soil.

51:35 – 51:37

And I'm really looking forward to seeing

51:37 – 51:40

what that looks like because that's going

51:40 – 51:42

to be another layer of improved

51:42 – 51:43

performance. Yeah, that's right.

51:43 – 51:46

Yeah, I'm looking forward to that too.

51:46 – 51:49

Yeah, who knows what we're going to see.

51:49 – 51:51

Yeah, we just don't even know.

51:51 – 51:54

We don't even know what the effects are.

51:54 – 51:56

We can't quantify the effects of using

51:56 – 51:58

fungicides. Over and over again every

51:58 – 52:01

year. Yeah. Awesome, this has been fun,

52:01 – 52:02

Jim. What have we missed?

52:02 – 52:05

Oh gosh, what have we missed?

52:05 – 52:06

I had some notes here.

52:06 – 52:08

Let me take a peek here.

52:08 – 52:12

Oh gosh, we could go into all kinds of

52:12 – 52:14

stuff, you know, into apples and people

52:14 – 52:16

applying potassium when they should be

52:16 – 52:18

applying calcium. We've talked about that

52:18 – 52:22

a little bit. I have my rules out here,

52:22 – 52:25

but one of my rules is to almost never

52:25 – 52:28

apply potassium to the soil if we can

52:28 – 52:30

avoid it, maybe in fertigation during the

52:30 – 52:32

crop season. And that's specifically on

52:32 – 52:33

apples or that's more generally?

52:33 – 52:36

All tree fruit that I can think of,

52:36 – 52:38

especially when we want early calcium, if

52:38 – 52:40

we're applying potassium to the soil, I

52:40 – 52:42

call it the gift that keeps on giving

52:42 – 52:44

because next season we'll be competing

52:44 – 52:45

against that. So the poisonous gift

52:45 – 52:46

though. It's right.

52:46 – 52:49

Yeah. It keeps on taking the gift that

52:49 – 52:50

keeps on taking. Yeah.

52:50 – 52:52

I mean, we're going to compete with that

52:52 – 52:54

next year when we're trying to uptake

52:54 – 52:56

calcium, that potassium, a lot of it's

52:56 – 52:58

still there, you know, and there's

52:58 – 53:00

typically tons of potassium in the soil.

53:00 – 53:01

We're just not accessing it.

53:01 – 53:04

And potassium foliars work so well and we

53:04 – 53:06

often don't even need them.

53:06 – 53:08

You know, sometimes we'll do a potassium

53:08 – 53:11

foliar just to be sure, you know, you

53:11 – 53:14

know, like a quarter hole okay in the full

53:14 – 53:16

year during fruit filler something like

53:16 – 53:19

that or to color a little bit.

53:19 – 53:21

You know what. The one story about

53:21 – 53:24

potassium that I have these data points

53:24 – 53:26

memorized and that was the first year that

53:26 – 53:29

Mike did his experiments with his full

53:29 – 53:31

year applications of triple 20 and five

53:31 – 53:34

applications of triple 20 14 days apart.

53:34 – 53:37

That's a pound of potassium per acre five

53:37 – 53:39

times five pounds of potash per acre

53:39 – 53:41

resulted in potassium levels instead of

53:41 – 53:44

being at 32 and 3500 per million, they

53:44 – 53:47

were at 7000 range, 7000 plus, 470, 600.

53:47 – 53:49

So you doubled the potassium 476 hundred.

53:49 – 53:52

Yeah. So you doubled the potassium content

53:52 – 53:55

of the leaf from the 3000 to 7000 part per

53:55 – 53:57

million range with five pounds of

53:57 – 53:58

potassium per acre.

53:58 – 54:01

It's again, similar to what we were

54:01 – 54:02

talking about sugar is this

54:02 – 54:04

disproportionate response where a

54:04 – 54:06

relatively what seems like a relatively

54:06 – 54:08

small quantity produces this oversized

54:08 – 54:10

effect. What's it going to say about?

54:10 – 54:12

Oh, so we've talked about this before,

54:12 – 54:15

John, but I'll say it for the podcast is

54:15 – 54:18

up here in the PNW, people have apply tons

54:18 – 54:19

of KMag to the soil.

54:19 – 54:21

Sometimes upwards you know, sometimes like

54:21 – 54:23

upwards of half a million dollars a year

54:23 – 54:25

on like a thousand acre orchard.

54:25 – 54:27

And people did that year after year.

54:27 – 54:30

And so if you look at an orchard, you look

54:30 – 54:33

at the sap from an orchard where they

54:33 – 54:35

didn't do that, a normal thing to see

54:35 – 54:38

would be on the first sap, you would see

54:38 – 54:40

5000 parts per million potassium and a

54:40 – 54:42

thousand to 1500 parts per million

54:42 – 54:44

calcium, like really good calcium making

54:44 – 54:46

tons of cells, you know, but if you've

54:46 – 54:48

applied KMag for years and years.

54:48 – 54:50

That early potassium could be 8 to 10000

54:50 – 54:53

and your calcium might be 7 to 800.

54:53 – 54:56

So now you got like a 10 to 1 ratio versus

54:56 – 54:59

a 5 to 1 or a 4 to 1.

54:59 – 55:01

There's so much potassium.

55:01 – 55:03

And what's the result of that?

55:03 – 55:05

Bitter pit, typically, and poor storage.

55:05 – 55:07

Poor storage is the main thing.

55:07 – 55:09

You know, you're trying to store apples

55:09 – 55:11

and you're looking at potassium calcium

55:11 – 55:13

ratios and nitrogen to calcium ratios.

55:13 – 55:15

People factor in magnesium.

55:15 – 55:18

But I'm not convinced that's as big of an

55:18 – 55:20

issue. The potassium flows into the plant

55:20 – 55:23

like, you know, candy to a kid and calcium

55:23 – 55:26

is one of the hardest things to uptake.

55:26 – 55:28

You know, people will say, I've got all

55:28 – 55:30

this calcium in my soil.

55:30 – 55:33

Why would I want to apply calcium?

55:33 – 55:35

Well, it's all tied up and you're not

55:35 – 55:38

going to, you know, you're not going to

55:38 – 55:41

uptake it. And that also, but what is

55:41 – 55:43

interesting, and this is what I loved

55:43 – 55:45

about beginning part of our conversation

55:45 – 55:48

is what changes when you change the carbon

55:48 – 55:51

status of the plant to the point where the

55:51 – 55:53

plant has an abundance of Carbohydrates

55:53 – 55:56

and more root exudates and all of a sudden

55:56 – 55:58

you are getting calcium absorption from

55:58 – 56:00

that tied up in complex calcium".

56:00 – 56:02

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

56:02 – 56:05

I should also add, John, when we're

56:05 – 56:07

talking about sugars, we're usually adding

56:07 – 56:11

sea stem too. And we're doing it as, you

56:11 – 56:15

know, kind of a sugar as well, you know,

56:15 – 56:17

a carbohydrate, a carbon source.

56:17 – 56:21

But then it comes along with all the other

56:21 – 56:24

good things, you know, stress relief and

56:24 – 56:26

resilience disease and everything else.

56:26 – 56:27

Yeah. Reproductive energy.

56:27 – 56:29

Yeah, that's that's an important note

56:29 – 56:32

because Of the things that I'm intrigued

56:32 – 56:36

by is, sees them the way that it's,

56:36 – 56:38

because it's not alkali extracted, it

56:38 – 56:42

contains all of these, the name of the

56:42 – 56:45

compound is, compound group is escaping me

56:45 – 56:46

right now. Osmotic regulators.

56:46 – 56:49

Yeah. Regulators that allow the plant to

56:49 – 56:52

maintain water in cells much more readily.

56:52 – 56:55

And reduce drought stress and heat stress

56:55 – 56:57

because they have better water regulation.

56:57 – 57:00

And I think that's an actually important

57:00 – 57:02

conjunction with a sugar application.

57:02 – 57:04

Yep, yep, agree.

57:05 – 57:07

You know, this entire conversation reminds

57:07 – 57:10

me of one of the things that Arden

57:10 – 57:13

Anderson talked about back in the '80s.

57:13 – 57:15

He described nonlinear effects that when

57:15 – 57:18

you apply a small amount of a certain

57:18 – 57:20

product let's say cobalt or sugar or

57:20 – 57:23

something like that, in a biological

57:23 – 57:25

system. It has this ripple effect.

57:25 – 57:27

This domino effect of these unintended

57:27 – 57:29

consequences and it's nonlinear.

57:29 – 57:33

You put on a few ounces of molybdenum or a

57:33 – 57:36

pound of sugar and all of a sudden you get

57:36 – 57:38

increased absorption of calcium that

57:38 – 57:40

represents an additional 20 pounds of

57:40 – 57:43

calcium per acre. It's like it isn't is

57:43 – 57:46

this nonlinear effect that's manifested by

57:46 – 57:47

Biological systems.

57:46 – 57:48

Yeah, no, I love that.

57:48 – 57:51

A lot of it is just bottlenecks.

57:51 – 57:53

Right? There's some kind of bottleneck

57:53 – 57:56

that isn't right and you apply just the

57:56 – 57:59

right thing and the plant is relieved of

57:59 – 58:01

that bottleneck and can process again.

58:01 – 58:04

Yeah. Well, Jim, this has been a fun

58:04 – 58:07

conversation. I haven't seen you in a

58:07 – 58:09

while. I've smiled a lot.

58:09 – 58:12

Thanks for being here and thanks for being

58:12 – 58:16

a part of our team and for all the work.

58:16 – 58:18

That you do. Really appreciate you.

58:18 – 58:20

Of course. Thank you, John.

58:20 – 58:23

The team at AEA and I are Dedicated to

58:23 – 58:26

bringing this show to you because we

58:26 – 58:28

believe that knowledge and information is

58:28 – 58:30

the foundation of successful regenerative

58:30 – 58:33

systems. At AEA, we believe that growing

58:33 – 58:35

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58:35 – 58:37

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58:37 – 58:40

And since 2006. We've worked with leading

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58:48 – 58:50

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58:50 – 58:52

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58:52 – 58:54

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