In this Podcast Extra, John joins the Soil Talks Podcast to break down a radically different way to think about crop health, soil biology, and system function.
In this episode they discuss:
• Why pests may not be attacking your crops but reporting a deeper issue
• How soluble fertilizers can create long-term dependency
• The hidden relationship between plant immunity and soil microbiology
• Why modern agriculture succeeds in yield but fails in resilience
• And how some growers are producing healthier crops with fewer inputs
Additional Resources
To listen to more epsidoes of the Soil Talks Podcast, please visit: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEVD04wz0u2J9qqu3L0zcZ9V8_YVzpr81
About John Kempf
John Kempf is the founder of Advancing Eco Agriculture (AEA). A top expert in biological and regenerative farming, John founded AEA in 2006 to help fellow farmers by providing the education, tools, and strategies that will have a global effect on the food supply and those who grow it.
Through intense study and the knowledge gleaned from many industry leaders, John is building a comprehensive systems-based approach to plant nutrition – a system solidly based on the sciences of plant physiology, mineral nutrition, and soil microbiology.
Support For This Show & Helping You Grow
Since 2006, AEA has been on a mission to help growers become more resilient, efficient, and profitable with regenerative agriculture.
AEA works directly with growers to apply its unique line of liquid mineral crop nutrition products and biological inoculants. Informed by cutting-edge plant and soil data-gathering techniques, AEA’s science-based programs empower farm operations to meet the crop quality markers that matter the most.
AEA has created real and lasting change on millions of acres with its products and data-driven services by working hand-in-hand with growers to produce healthier soil, stronger crops, and higher profits.
Beyond working on the ground with growers, AEA leads in regenerative agriculture media and education, producing and distributing the popular and highly-regarded Regenerative Agriculture Podcast, inspiring webinars, and other educational content that serve as go-to resources for growers worldwide.
Learn more about AEA’s regenerative programs and products: https://www.advancingecoag.com
Podcast Transcript
0:01 – 0:03
What if the presence of a pest
0:03 – 0:05
isn't an attack, but a report
0:05 – 0:05
card?
0:07 – 0:08
You know, soluble fertilizers
0:08 – 0:10
for plants are like ultra
0:10 – 0:11
-processed foods for people.
0:23 – 0:24
And for decades, modern
0:24 – 0:25
agriculture has been locked in
0:25 – 0:26
an arms race.
0:27 – 0:29
We've been taught that to grow a
0:29 – 0:30
crop, we must be at war.
0:31 – 0:32
War with the weeds, war with the
0:32 – 0:33
insects,
0:33 – 0:35
and war with the soil itself.
0:36 – 0:38
We've relied on rescue chemistry
0:38 – 0:39
to
0:39 – 0:41
keep plants on life support,
0:42 – 0:43
while often ignoring the very
0:43 – 0:45
biological systems that were
0:45 – 0:47
designed to make them thrive.
0:48 – 0:49
But what if we've been looking
0:49 – 0:51
at the symptoms instead of the
0:51 – 0:52
source?
0:52 – 0:54
What if the presence of a pest
0:54 – 0:55
isn't an attack, but a report
0:55 – 0:56
card?
0:56 – 0:58
He's the man who codified the
0:58 – 0:59
current state of global
0:59 – 1:01
agriculture and why it's a
1:01 – 1:01
failing model.
1:02 – 1:03
Well,
1:03 – 1:05
can you have a cancer patient
1:05 – 1:07
become better and improve their
1:07 – 1:09
health in the long term with
1:09 – 1:11
chemo and radiation and cancer
1:11 – 1:12
drugs?
1:12 – 1:13
And we know that the short
1:13 – 1:14
answer is no.
1:15 – 1:16
Those can
1:17 – 1:18
be
1:17 – 1:20
valuable and necessary tools.
1:21 – 1:23
to halt the progression of a
1:23 – 1:24
rapidly moving disease.
1:26 – 1:28
But once the disease is halted,
1:29 – 1:32
if you just stop there and you
1:32 – 1:34
just maintain the status quo and
1:35 – 1:37
you continue with the same level
1:37 – 1:39
type of diet and lifestyle
1:39 – 1:40
choices and everything else that
1:40 – 1:41
led to cancer in the first
1:41 – 1:42
place,
1:42 – 1:44
then you're going to end up with
1:44 – 1:45
the same type of result.
1:45 – 1:46
Again,
1:46 – 1:47
you're gonna have a cancer
1:47 – 1:48
relapse, you're going to have,
1:48 – 1:49
or you're gonna have something
1:49 – 1:50
else, other types of
1:50 – 1:50
degenerative illnesses.
1:52 – 1:53
And I think it's perhaps that
1:53 – 1:54
framing that is at the
1:54 – 1:55
foundation
1:56 – 1:57
of how people are starting to
1:57 – 1:58
think about agriculture
1:58 – 2:00
differently and just realizing
2:01 – 2:03
you know, we don't get headaches
2:03 – 2:04
because we have aspirin
2:04 – 2:05
deficiencies and
2:06 – 2:08
our crops don't have these
2:08 – 2:10
chronic diseases and we don't
2:10 – 2:11
have these systemic chronic
2:11 – 2:13
problems in agriculture because
2:13 – 2:14
we have fungicide deficiencies
2:14 – 2:15
or we have pesticide
2:15 – 2:16
deficiencies.
2:17 – 2:18
And that we
2:19 – 2:20
have agriculture collectively
2:20 – 2:22
and this contemporary model,
2:23 – 2:24
you know, this contemporary,
2:25 – 2:27
It's sometimes when it's framed
2:27 – 2:30
as organic or regenerative and
2:30 – 2:31
people try to assign labels to
2:31 – 2:33
it, then the label that gets
2:33 – 2:36
assigned to what is modern
2:36 – 2:37
agriculture is sometimes called
2:37 – 2:38
conventional.
2:39 – 2:41
But it hasn't earned the right
2:41 – 2:42
to be called conventional.
2:43 – 2:45
The current model of thinking
2:45 – 2:46
and the model of agronomy that
2:46 – 2:47
is being used has really only
2:47 – 2:48
been in widespread adoption for
2:48 – 2:49
about 70 years.
2:50 – 2:53
It hasn't, and it doesn't have a
2:53 – 2:54
particularly great track record
2:54 – 2:55
of success. It has a great track
2:55 – 2:56
record of success if you look at
2:56 – 2:58
it purely from a yield
2:58 – 3:00
perspective of improving food
3:00 – 3:01
production. But if you look at
3:01 – 3:02
it from a sustainability
3:02 – 3:03
perspective, true
3:03 – 3:04
sustainability, long -term
3:04 – 3:05
sustainability,
3:05 – 3:07
it fails abysmally in multiple
3:07 – 3:08
dimensions.
3:09 – 3:10
And poor
3:10 – 3:12
crop health equals poor human
3:12 – 3:13
health, correct?
3:13 – 3:14
Yeah, that's what one of the
3:14 – 3:15
contributing factors to why we
3:15 – 3:17
have this epidemic of public
3:17 – 3:19
health crisis and obesity and
3:19 – 3:20
all these degenerative
3:20 – 3:21
illnesses.
3:20 – 3:23
But sure. So I I chose to no
3:23 – 3:24
longer call it conventional
3:24 – 3:25
agriculture. I call it
3:25 – 3:26
contemporary agriculture.
3:27 – 3:28
And it's
3:28 – 3:30
when we develop this perspective
3:30 – 3:31
that, you know, contemporary
3:31 – 3:33
agriculture is like a sick
3:33 – 3:34
patient,
3:35 – 3:37
someone who has diabetes
3:38 – 3:40
and obesity and heart disease
3:40 – 3:41
and has this combination of all
3:41 – 3:42
these degenerative illnesses.
3:44 – 3:45
It's.
3:45 – 3:47
Then we want to, you know,
3:48 – 3:49
I'm still remember what was it
3:49 – 3:50
15, 20 years ago when there's
3:50 – 3:52
all these conversations about
3:52 – 3:53
sustainability and sustainable
3:53 – 3:54
innovations and sustainability
3:54 – 3:55
in agriculture.
3:55 – 3:56
that was the buzzword of the
3:56 – 3:57
time.
3:57 – 3:59
Why would we desire to sustain
3:59 – 4:01
such a poor level of health?
4:02 – 4:03
Yes. We first need to have a
4:03 – 4:05
conversation about regenerating
4:05 – 4:07
health of soils and livestock
4:07 – 4:09
and people. And once we've
4:09 – 4:11
achieved a higher plateau of
4:11 – 4:12
performance,
4:12 – 4:13
I mean,
4:13 – 4:14
people,
4:14 – 4:15
Arden Anderson gave me this
4:15 – 4:17
framing years ago that I still
4:17 – 4:18
think about from
4:19 – 4:20
time to time. He said that
4:21 – 4:23
We tend to think of health as
4:23 – 4:24
being binary,
4:24 – 4:26
either you're healthy or you're
4:26 – 4:27
sick.
4:27 – 4:29
But in reality, we should think
4:29 – 4:30
of it as being on a spectrum.
4:31 – 4:32
You are healthy
4:33 – 4:34
and on one end of the spectrum,
4:35 – 4:36
vibrantly healthy on one end of
4:36 – 4:37
the spectrum,
4:37 – 4:38
sick or diseased on the other
4:38 – 4:39
end of the spectrum.
4:40 – 4:41
And then you have this long
4:42 – 4:43
spectrum in between.
4:43 – 4:45
And at some point on the
4:45 – 4:46
threshold, as you start moving
4:46 – 4:48
from vibrantly healthy in the
4:48 – 4:49
direction of
4:49 – 4:50
a disease state, he said, you
4:50 – 4:52
cross into this threshold
4:53 – 4:54
where you're in this pre
4:54 – 4:55
-disease state.
4:55 – 4:57
So you aren't sick yet, but you
4:57 – 4:58
are susceptible.
5:00 – 5:00
And from
5:01 – 5:01
a perspective,
5:02 – 5:03
yeah, from a perspective,
5:03 – 5:05
that's low immunity, it's non
5:05 – 5:05
-functional immunity.
5:05 – 5:06
So from a perspective of our
5:06 – 5:07
health,
5:07 – 5:09
we should try to spend as little
5:09 – 5:11
time as possible in that pre
5:11 – 5:12
-disease state and be in the
5:12 – 5:13
vibrantly healthy state.
5:14 – 5:15
And that's also the way that we
5:15 – 5:17
should manage our agricultural
5:17 – 5:18
production. If we base it off of
5:18 – 5:20
that, the failing model, there's
5:20 – 5:21
no more reliance on rescue
5:21 – 5:22
chemistry, correct?
5:22 – 5:23
It's gone.
5:23 – 5:26
Well, what happens is you have a
5:26 – 5:27
greatly reduced need for the
5:27 – 5:28
rescue chemistry.
5:28 – 5:30
It's like when you are in that
5:30 – 5:31
vibrantly healthy state, all
5:31 – 5:32
right, when you're in a pre
5:32 – 5:33
-disease state,
5:33 – 5:35
and we all observe this in the
5:35 – 5:37
people around us every winter,
5:38 – 5:39
When someone is in a pre
5:39 – 5:40
-disease state, they become ill
5:40 – 5:41
very easily.
5:41 – 5:43
All the cold and flu bugs that
5:43 – 5:45
come along and then they need to
5:45 – 5:46
take some drugs to help them
5:46 – 5:48
recover from the bugs that
5:48 – 5:49
they've become infected with.
5:50 – 5:52
And other people who are not in
5:52 – 5:53
that pre -disease state but who
5:53 – 5:54
are in a vibrantly healthy state
5:54 – 5:56
for whatever reasons because of
5:56 – 5:57
immune support or microbiome
5:57 – 5:58
support and so forth, genetics,
5:59 – 5:59
whatever the case might be,
6:00 – 6:02
they might
6:02 – 6:05
occasionally need those
6:05 – 6:06
treatments but
6:06 – 6:08
it's one year out of three or
6:08 – 6:10
one year out of five or maybe
6:10 – 6:11
never in 10 years.
6:12 – 6:13
It's all about the individual
6:13 – 6:14
terrain
6:14 – 6:16
So you have these dramatic
6:16 – 6:17
differences in the health of
6:17 – 6:18
individuals.
6:19 – 6:20
And you can have that same
6:20 – 6:22
spectrum on our farms and our
6:22 – 6:24
crops. And so it's possible to
6:24 – 6:26
transition as
6:27 – 6:29
we manage the health if we have
6:29 – 6:31
a farm that is constantly using
6:31 – 6:32
fungicides and constantly using
6:32 – 6:33
insecticides.
6:34 – 6:35
As we improve the health of that
6:35 – 6:36
ecosystem over time,
6:37 – 6:38
over several year period, you
6:38 – 6:39
can get to a point where you can
6:39 – 6:40
greatly reduce
6:41 – 6:42
the need for those pesticides.
6:43 – 6:44
And you've essentially, you've
6:44 – 6:45
removed your dependency from
6:45 – 6:46
them. Now,
6:46 – 6:48
they might still be valuable one
6:48 – 6:50
year out of seven or just like
6:50 – 6:52
they might still be valuable
6:52 – 6:53
occasionally but you're not
6:53 – 6:54
dependent on them.
6:54 – 6:56
You follow up right after that
6:56 – 6:57
I'm sure with biological
6:57 – 6:59
treatments things like that
6:59 – 7:00
correct to rebuild the health of
7:00 – 7:02
that crop as quick as possible.
7:02 – 7:03
I'm sure if you're on this
7:03 – 7:04
pathway then you're already
7:04 – 7:06
doing many things to improve
7:06 – 7:08
soil health and plant health
7:08 – 7:10
anyway and so you obviously
7:10 – 7:11
continue that but it's
7:12 – 7:13
It's again, to use the analogy
7:13 – 7:14
of our personal health, if for
7:14 – 7:16
some reason you need to take an
7:16 – 7:17
antibiotic, then it's becoming a
7:17 – 7:19
common recommendation to follow
7:19 – 7:20
that up with a probiotic to
7:20 – 7:21
rebuild your gut microbiome.
7:22 – 7:23
Today isn't about necessarily
7:23 – 7:24
organic versus conventional.
7:25 – 7:27
It's really about the science of
7:27 – 7:29
plant immunity and nutrient
7:29 – 7:29
density.
7:29 – 7:32
What I what I learned in the
7:32 – 7:33
early days when I was starting
7:33 – 7:35
down this pathway and what I've
7:35 – 7:36
continued to learn and
7:36 – 7:37
experience is that
7:38 – 7:39
the foundation of plant immunity
7:39 – 7:41
really rests on two pillars.
7:42 – 7:42
You have
7:43 – 7:44
the foundation requirements.
7:45 – 7:46
nutritional integrity in terms
7:46 – 7:48
of mineral nutrition and you
7:48 – 7:49
have microbiome integrity.
7:50 – 7:52
And it's the same thing for
7:52 – 7:53
plants,
7:53 – 7:54
for livestock,
7:54 – 7:56
for people, for soil microbes.
7:56 – 7:58
You need those two fundamentals,
7:59 – 8:00
our universal fundamentals.
8:01 – 8:02
And
8:02 – 8:03
when
8:03 – 8:05
You have those two fundamentals
8:05 – 8:07
in place, you can develop these
8:07 – 8:09
robust immune systems, whether
8:09 – 8:11
that's in our bodies or
8:11 – 8:12
livestock or in soils and
8:12 – 8:13
plants.
8:14 – 8:14
And what
8:15 – 8:17
many people don't realize,
8:17 – 8:19
we've not really been trained to
8:19 – 8:20
think in this way,
8:21 – 8:22
but when there are
8:23 – 8:26
epidemics or plagues or diseases
8:26 – 8:27
of serious proportion,
8:28 – 8:30
people and livestock have the
8:30 – 8:31
ability to move around.
8:33 – 8:35
But plants
8:36 – 8:37
do not have that capability.
8:38 – 8:39
plants are anchored in place.
8:40 – 8:42
And what that has translated
8:42 – 8:43
into is that
8:43 – 8:44
plant,
8:45 – 8:46
relatively speaking, relative to
8:46 – 8:49
the diseases and the potential
8:49 – 8:50
microbes and pathogens that
8:50 – 8:51
they're exposed to,
8:52 – 8:54
plants actually have a much more
8:54 – 8:55
robust system,
8:55 – 8:56
relatively speaking,
8:56 – 8:59
than humans or than livestock
8:59 – 9:00
do,
9:00 – 9:01
because they are anchored in
9:01 – 9:04
place. And so they have to fight
9:04 – 9:05
to survive.
9:05 – 9:06
And so
9:07 – 9:08
because of that, they have these
9:08 – 9:09
very robust immune systems.
9:09 – 9:10
And I
9:11 – 9:12
I started several
9:13 – 9:14
years ago, oh, half a dozen or
9:14 – 9:16
more years ago, I started making
9:16 – 9:16
this
9:16 – 9:18
comment publicly that I believe
9:18 – 9:20
plants have the capacity to be
9:20 – 9:22
100 % resistant to all diseases
9:22 – 9:23
and all insects.
9:24 – 9:25
Well, that is so contrary to
9:25 – 9:27
most people's experience that
9:27 – 9:30
they hear that comment with
9:30 – 9:31
some measure of disbelief.
9:32 – 9:33
And this is something like my
9:33 – 9:35
personality, my nature is to be
9:35 – 9:36
quite conservative.
9:36 – 9:38
I don't really engage in
9:38 – 9:38
hyperbole. And
9:39 – 9:40
so it's something that
9:40 – 9:42
a lot, there was a lot of
9:42 – 9:43
thought and a lot of study put
9:43 – 9:44
behind, am I really going to
9:44 – 9:46
make this statement or not?
9:47 – 9:49
But it's something, it's a big
9:49 – 9:50
claim to make, it's a big
9:50 – 9:52
mouthful, but it's one that I've
9:52 – 9:53
become comfortable and confident
9:53 – 9:54
making
9:54 – 9:57
because it's not based on, it's
9:57 – 9:58
not a theory, it's not a
9:58 – 9:59
hypothesis.
10:00 – 10:01
This is something that we have
10:01 – 10:03
done successfully on scale,
10:04 – 10:05
on tens, hundreds of thousands,
10:05 – 10:06
even millions of acres and
10:06 – 10:08
across a broad variety of
10:08 – 10:08
different crops.
10:09 – 10:12
Every year for the last 20
10:12 – 10:13
years,
10:13 – 10:15
growers have approached me with
10:15 – 10:18
new diseases and new problems
10:18 – 10:19
that I've not worked with
10:19 – 10:19
before. And they've said,
10:21 – 10:23
we have, we have disease X.
10:25 – 10:27
We have no effective treatment.
10:27 – 10:29
We have no effective control for
10:29 – 10:30
it.
10:30 – 10:31
There is no effective treatment
10:31 – 10:32
for it. Bacterial canker on
10:32 – 10:33
stone fruit was one of the early
10:33 – 10:34
ones that I worked on.
10:35 – 10:36
And
10:36 – 10:37
we
10:38 – 10:41
worked with these crops for a
10:41 – 10:42
year or so.
10:42 – 10:43
And I
10:44 – 10:45
still remember the case on
10:45 – 10:46
bacterial canker on cherries now
10:46 – 10:47
that I mentioned it.
10:48 – 10:49
Bacterial canker reversed.
10:49 – 10:50
It disappeared.
10:50 – 10:52
We had orchard blocks that were
10:52 – 10:53
severely affected with bacterial
10:53 – 10:54
canker. And the bacterial canker
10:54 – 10:56
reversed itself, which has never
10:56 – 10:57
been known to happen.
11:01 – 11:01
Well,
11:02 – 11:03
people then love to ask the
11:03 – 11:04
question, because we're all
11:04 – 11:05
looking for a silver bullet.
11:05 – 11:06
I go, what did you do?
11:07 – 11:08
Well, what did we do?
11:08 – 11:09
The answer is we did everything.
11:10 – 11:11
We pulled SAP analysis.
11:11 – 11:12
We pulled soil analysis.
11:13 – 11:14
We balanced the microbiome.
11:14 – 11:15
We balanced trace mineral
11:15 – 11:18
attrition and material canker
11:18 – 11:19
went away.
11:19 – 11:21
I can't point to one thing that
11:21 – 11:22
we did. I could maybe point to a
11:22 – 11:24
combination of half a dozen
11:24 – 11:24
different things.
11:25 – 11:25
And we've certainly, we've been
11:25 – 11:27
able to replicate that result
11:27 – 11:29
over and over again in different
11:29 – 11:30
settings that were very
11:30 – 11:30
different from the original.
11:31 – 11:32
It all comes down to nutritional
11:32 – 11:34
balance and microbiome balance.
11:34 – 11:35
You balance those two.
11:35 – 11:36
things and these quote -unquote
11:36 – 11:37
diseases
11:37 – 11:38
start,
11:39 – 11:40
they no longer express.
11:40 – 11:41
And so
11:42 – 11:43
my
11:43 – 11:45
confidence in making that
11:45 – 11:47
substantial claim of being able
11:47 – 11:48
to, crops being able to be
11:48 – 11:50
completely resistant to diseases
11:50 – 11:52
and insects is because as
11:53 – 11:54
of this point,
11:55 – 11:57
this approach has never failed.
11:59 – 11:59
It has never failed.
12:00 – 12:02
No one has come to us with an
12:02 – 12:04
incurable disease
12:04 – 12:06
and we've taken this approach
12:06 – 12:07
and failed to have success.
12:08 – 12:09
And you
12:10 – 12:12
do that enough times, we've done
12:12 – 12:13
it usually several different
12:13 – 12:15
disease and crop combinations
12:15 – 12:16
every year for the last 20
12:16 – 12:17
years, and you develop some
12:17 – 12:18
degree of confidence when
12:18 – 12:19
everybody else,
12:19 – 12:21
if every year you treat
12:21 – 12:22
something that everyone else
12:22 – 12:23
says is impossible, and you
12:23 – 12:24
consistently do the impossible,
12:24 – 12:26
you soon get the idea that the
12:26 – 12:27
impossible isn't so impossible
12:27 – 12:28
after all.
12:28 – 12:30
The problem with soluble NPK,
12:30 – 12:31
and I know you can jump all over
12:31 – 12:33
this one, if you would explain
12:33 – 12:35
why high salt water soluble
12:35 – 12:37
fertilizers often turn off a
12:37 – 12:39
plant's natural immune system
12:39 – 12:42
and relationship with soil
12:42 – 12:42
biology.
12:45 – 12:46
I could talk about both of those
12:46 – 12:47
topics for an hour.
12:52 – 12:53
So in
12:54 – 12:54
short,
12:55 – 12:58
Plants have this very close
12:58 – 13:00
symbiotic relationship with the
13:00 – 13:01
soil biology and the soil
13:01 – 13:02
microbial community, given the
13:02 – 13:04
opportunity to do so.
13:05 – 13:08
But this relationship is an
13:08 – 13:09
exchange that the plant
13:09 – 13:11
controls. The biology doesn't
13:11 – 13:12
control it. The plant
13:13 – 13:14
transmits the signals.
13:15 – 13:15
The
13:15 – 13:18
plant is required to engage,
13:19 – 13:21
and it dictates the
13:21 – 13:22
relationship.
13:23 – 13:24
When the plant is given
13:25 – 13:28
large amounts of free soluble
13:28 – 13:29
nutrients,
13:29 – 13:31
then it
13:32 – 13:34
tells the soil microbes I don't
13:34 – 13:35
need you.
13:35 – 13:38
I don't need to invest sugar
13:38 – 13:39
energy in
13:39 – 13:41
facilitating a relationship with
13:41 – 13:43
a biology that is going to bring
13:43 – 13:44
me phosphorus and nitrogen and
13:44 – 13:46
potassium and a whole host of
13:46 – 13:47
other elements because I already
13:47 – 13:48
have plenty.
13:48 – 13:50
I live in a luxury environment.
13:50 – 13:51
I don't need biology.
13:53 – 13:54
That's what happens when you
13:54 – 13:56
apply a rose starter solution at
13:56 – 13:57
planting. And then, of course,
13:57 – 13:59
that luxury environment of those
13:59 – 14:01
luxurious free nutrient ions,
14:02 – 14:03
particularly in the case of
14:03 – 14:04
phosphorous and potassium,
14:04 – 14:06
starts to fade away and
14:06 – 14:07
disappear over time.
14:08 – 14:09
And nitrogen, of course, is
14:09 – 14:10
often applied in abundant
14:10 – 14:12
amounts to make sure that that
14:12 – 14:12
doesn't happen.
14:13 – 14:16
But so that is that is kind of
14:16 – 14:18
the one level,
14:18 – 14:20
one level of the answer to your
14:20 – 14:22
question. And then there is the
14:22 – 14:23
other aspect, which
14:24 – 14:25
is
14:25 – 14:27
I framed this conversation, I've
14:27 – 14:28
started
14:29 – 14:31
having this discussion in the
14:31 – 14:33
context of electrolyte nutrition
14:33 – 14:35
versus microbial nutrition.
14:36 – 14:36
If
14:37 – 14:39
you want to shut down the soil
14:39 – 14:41
microbial community,
14:41 – 14:43
and if you want to shut down the
14:43 – 14:46
plant's microbial interactions,
14:46 – 14:47
not just within the soil
14:47 – 14:48
environment, but inside the
14:48 – 14:49
plant itself,
14:49 – 14:51
this will maybe make a slight
14:51 – 14:52
diversion here.
14:52 – 14:54
We're now coming to understand
14:54 – 14:55
that within our own bodies, we
14:55 – 14:56
have,
14:56 – 14:57
I forget the exact number, but
14:57 – 14:58
something like 10 times more
14:58 – 15:00
bacterial cells than we do human
15:00 – 15:01
cells.
15:01 – 15:02
The same concept also is true of
15:02 – 15:03
plants.
15:03 – 15:05
Plants are colonized by
15:05 – 15:06
endophytes, bacteria,
15:07 – 15:08
microalgae, fungi that live
15:08 – 15:09
throughout the entire plant
15:09 – 15:10
structure that live on the leaf
15:10 – 15:11
surface.
15:11 – 15:13
There is no location on or in
15:13 – 15:14
the plant that is not colonized
15:14 – 15:16
by these associated endophytes.
15:17 – 15:19
Plants have the ability to
15:20 – 15:22
signal to the microbial
15:22 – 15:22
community,
15:23 – 15:25
I need more of X and less of Y
15:25 – 15:27
or they can selectively absorb,
15:28 – 15:29
they can selectively absorb
15:29 – 15:31
manganese and zinc and copper
15:31 – 15:32
and they can reject excessive
15:32 – 15:33
levels of aluminum,
15:34 – 15:35
for example,
15:35 – 15:36
or sodium or chloride.
15:36 – 15:38
As long as the
15:39 – 15:41
plant system is not overloaded
15:41 – 15:43
with excess electrolytes.
15:43 – 15:45
The moment you give the plant
15:45 – 15:45
excessive levels of
15:45 – 15:47
electrolytes, it loses its
15:47 – 15:48
ability to self -regulate.
15:49 – 15:50
It loses its ability for
15:50 – 15:51
homeostasis of nutrient
15:51 – 15:52
absorption.
15:53 – 15:54
And that
15:55 – 15:56
means all
15:56 – 15:57
of a sudden the plant starts
15:57 – 15:59
absorbing excessive levels of
15:59 – 16:00
certain nutrients and
16:00 – 16:01
deficiencies of others.
16:01 – 16:02
And so
16:02 – 16:04
this is really a signal, like
16:04 – 16:06
how many times do you walk out
16:06 – 16:07
into the forest and you observe
16:07 – 16:08
plants that have severe
16:08 – 16:09
nutritional deficiencies?
16:11 – 16:12
Not very often.
16:12 – 16:13
And there's all kinds of
16:14 – 16:15
arguments that people would like
16:15 – 16:16
to make about the relative
16:16 – 16:19
productivity or nutrient removal
16:19 – 16:20
of a forest versus
16:20 – 16:22
agricultural soil but the bottom
16:22 – 16:23
line is the reason you don't see
16:23 – 16:25
those nutrient deficiencies is
16:25 – 16:26
because you
16:26 – 16:29
have this very close plant and
16:29 – 16:31
microbiome signaling and the
16:31 – 16:32
plants are able to maintain
16:32 – 16:33
nutrients through this
16:33 – 16:35
homeostasis process.
16:35 – 16:36
They self -regulate up and down
16:36 – 16:38
just like we self -regulate our
16:38 – 16:38
body temperature.
16:39 – 16:40
Well,
16:41 – 16:43
you destroy the plant's ability
16:43 – 16:44
to self -regulate its
16:44 – 16:45
nutritional
16:45 – 16:47
integrity when
16:48 – 16:49
you give it excessive
16:49 – 16:50
electrolytes.
16:51 – 16:53
Your common electrolytes in
16:53 – 16:54
plants and soils
16:54 – 16:55
which can easily become
16:55 – 16:56
excessive
16:56 – 16:58
are chloride,
16:59 – 16:59
potassium,
17:00 – 17:01
soluble magnesium,
17:03 – 17:04
nitrogen.
17:06 – 17:07
Did I miss one?
17:07 – 17:08
I think those are the major
17:08 – 17:09
ones.
17:09 – 17:10
Sodium, of course.
17:10 – 17:11
Sodium is kind of the obvious
17:11 – 17:12
one.
17:13 – 17:13
So when
17:14 – 17:16
you think about what that means,
17:16 – 17:18
if you give a plant
17:19 – 17:20
large levels of
17:20 – 17:21
I'll use nitrogen as a
17:21 – 17:23
discussion point, although the
17:23 – 17:25
other electrolytes would also be
17:25 – 17:26
true for them. If you give a
17:26 – 17:27
plant a large dose of
17:27 – 17:28
electrolytes, two things happen,
17:28 – 17:29
several things happen.
17:29 – 17:31
One is it
17:32 – 17:34
no longer needs the soil biology
17:34 – 17:36
to deliver nitrogen, so it stops
17:36 – 17:38
feeding soil biology.
17:38 – 17:40
But secondly, you also have
17:40 – 17:42
destroyed that plant's ability
17:42 – 17:43
to self -regulate.
17:43 – 17:45
So you've shut down the
17:45 – 17:46
communication system,
17:47 – 17:49
and you have destroyed the
17:49 – 17:50
homeostasis capability.
17:51 – 17:52
So now you have put that plant
17:52 – 17:55
into a state of dependency for
17:55 – 17:57
the rest of its lifespan or for
17:57 – 17:58
the rest of that season where it
17:58 – 17:59
is now dependent on
18:00 – 18:01
an ongoing diet
18:02 – 18:04
of soluble nutrients.
18:05 – 18:05
So
18:06 – 18:07
you could in many ways say that
18:07 – 18:10
you have created a dependency on
18:10 – 18:12
a ultra processed foods diet and
18:12 – 18:13
then you wonder why the plant
18:13 – 18:15
has obesity and diabetes and
18:15 – 18:17
needs drug drugs to recover.
18:18 – 18:19
That's exactly right and at the
18:19 – 18:20
end of the day that's what's
18:20 – 18:21
happening in so many situations
18:21 – 18:22
right the
18:23 – 18:24
NPK is dumped on the
18:25 – 18:26
crops are dependent on it's like
18:26 – 18:28
a drug addict you know and they
18:28 – 18:30
don't stop the soils don't stop
18:30 – 18:31
the plants don't stop
18:31 – 18:33
until you can reverse that get
18:33 – 18:34
it back to the way it should be.
18:35 – 18:36
you know, healthy, thriving
18:36 – 18:38
microbial communities in the
18:38 – 18:40
soil that self regulating mining
18:40 – 18:42
the nutrition that's needed as
18:42 – 18:43
the plants call for it.
18:43 – 18:45
Yeah, soluble, soluble ionic
18:45 – 18:47
nutrients for fertilizer, excuse
18:47 – 18:49
me, soluble fertilizers for
18:49 – 18:51
plants are like ultra processed
18:51 – 18:52
foods for people.
18:52 – 18:53
Yeah, the passive versus active
18:53 – 18:54
plant. Let's discuss the
18:54 – 18:56
difference between a plant that
18:56 – 18:57
is spoon fed nutrients,
18:58 – 18:59
right? So that would be again,
18:59 – 19:00
going back to that soluble,
19:01 – 19:01
right?
19:02 – 19:03
versus a plant that is actively
19:03 – 19:05
mining the soil through root
19:05 – 19:06
exudates.
19:07 – 19:08
Let's talk about that a little
19:08 – 19:09
bit, passive versus active
19:09 – 19:10
plant.
19:10 – 19:12
Oh boy, this is a fun one.
19:12 – 19:13
So
19:13 – 19:16
the concept of passive immunity
19:16 – 19:18
versus active immunity is
19:18 – 19:19
essentially a
19:19 – 19:21
rethinking of
19:22 – 19:23
the disease triangle.
19:24 – 19:24
So
19:24 – 19:26
most everyone's familiar with
19:26 – 19:26
the disease triangle.
19:27 – 19:28
You have the combination of a
19:28 – 19:29
susceptible host,
19:29 – 19:31
the appropriate environment, and
19:31 – 19:32
the presence of a pathogen.
19:32 – 19:33
And I
19:34 – 19:35
would suggest that we haven't
19:35 – 19:37
thought deeply enough about what
19:37 – 19:39
it means to be a susceptible
19:39 – 19:41
host and what is an appropriate
19:41 – 19:42
environment.
19:42 – 19:43
The
19:44 – 19:47
usual thinking is that
19:47 – 19:50
if you have a particular plant,
19:50 – 19:52
a crop, let's say you have an
19:52 – 19:53
apple tree,
19:54 – 19:57
and if you have a scab presence
19:58 – 20:00
in the ecosystem, in the
20:00 – 20:00
environment,
20:01 – 20:02
the simple fact that the apple
20:02 – 20:04
tree is an apple tree means that
20:04 – 20:05
it is
20:05 – 20:06
inherently susceptible.
20:07 – 20:09
That's usually as far as the
20:09 – 20:10
thinking goes. Well, we know
20:10 – 20:11
that that's not true and it's
20:11 – 20:13
not just because of genetics.
20:13 – 20:14
You can have some resistant
20:14 – 20:15
varieties, you can have
20:15 – 20:16
susceptible varieties, but you
20:16 – 20:17
also have
20:17 – 20:19
susceptible varieties that have
20:19 – 20:20
been provided with very good
20:20 – 20:21
nutrition that are completely
20:21 – 20:22
resistant.
20:23 – 20:24
And so
20:24 – 20:25
as
20:25 – 20:27
we started looking
20:27 – 20:29
at what was happening with plant
20:29 – 20:30
physiology and how plants were
20:30 – 20:31
interacting with their
20:31 – 20:32
microbiome,
20:32 – 20:34
we observed kind of two
20:34 – 20:35
different states of immunity.
20:36 – 20:38
The one state of the passive
20:38 – 20:39
immunity
20:39 – 20:42
is simply a function of mineral
20:42 – 20:43
-nutritional balance.
20:43 – 20:44
This is at the bottom of the
20:44 – 20:46
plant health pyramid, the first
20:46 – 20:46
two levels.
20:47 – 20:49
And at these first two levels,
20:49 – 20:50
these plants become
20:50 – 20:53
resistant to soil -borne
20:53 – 20:54
diseases and they become
20:54 – 20:56
resistant to some groups of
20:56 – 20:57
insects
20:57 – 20:59
simply as a result of changing
20:59 – 21:01
the plant's internal nutritional
21:01 – 21:02
state,
21:02 – 21:03
changing the carbohydrate
21:03 – 21:05
profile, changing the amino acid
21:05 – 21:07
profile, changing the peptide
21:07 – 21:09
profile. That change of the
21:09 – 21:10
plant's internal nutritional
21:10 – 21:12
basically to no longer have
21:12 – 21:14
excess of electrolytes
21:14 – 21:16
removes that plant as a possible
21:16 – 21:17
food source.
21:17 – 21:19
So the plant isn't actively
21:19 – 21:21
trying to kill powdery mildew or
21:21 – 21:23
to kill scab or anything at this
21:23 – 21:24
point. It's just simply no
21:24 – 21:25
longer, it is no longer a
21:25 – 21:27
susceptible host because its
21:27 – 21:28
nutritional profile has changed.
21:29 – 21:30
So that is passive immunity.
21:30 – 21:32
That's that's level one and
21:32 – 21:33
level two of the plant health
21:33 – 21:34
pyramid.
21:34 – 21:36
But then the second half, level
21:36 – 21:37
three, level four of the plant
21:37 – 21:38
health pyramid is when the plant
21:38 – 21:40
switches to active immunity.
21:40 – 21:41
And
21:41 – 21:42
in active immunity,
21:43 – 21:44
there's some interesting things
21:44 – 21:45
that happen here where plants
21:46 – 21:47
now start getting the majority
21:47 – 21:48
of their nutrition from
21:49 – 21:50
microbes.
21:50 – 21:52
They're absorbing live microbes
21:52 – 21:54
from the soil, moving them into
21:54 – 21:55
the plant.
21:55 – 21:56
And
21:56 – 21:57
in this process,
21:58 – 21:59
these
22:01 – 22:03
plants become very energy
22:03 – 22:04
efficient.
22:04 – 22:05
And the microbes themselves
22:05 – 22:07
produce lots of these compounds
22:08 – 22:10
that we call phytonutrients.
22:10 – 22:12
These are phenolic compounds and
22:12 – 22:14
terpenoids and bioflavonoids.
22:14 – 22:15
In plain English, we call them
22:15 – 22:16
essential oils.
22:16 – 22:19
And these are the plant's co
22:19 – 22:20
-evolutionary arms race,
22:21 – 22:23
where this is their biological
22:23 – 22:25
warfare version of how they
22:25 – 22:27
can't run away from diseases.
22:28 – 22:29
So they develop all these
22:29 – 22:31
compounds as plant protectants
22:31 – 22:32
to protect themselves from
22:32 – 22:33
ultraviolet radiation, from
22:33 – 22:34
insect attack and disease
22:34 – 22:36
attack, and from overgrazing and
22:36 – 22:36
so forth.
22:37 – 22:39
And I don't think it's not
22:39 – 22:40
commonly realized, we're now
22:40 – 22:41
starting to study the human
22:41 – 22:42
health impact of these
22:42 – 22:44
compounds, but many of these
22:44 – 22:44
compounds
22:45 – 22:46
have,
22:47 – 22:49
they have the capacity to kill
22:50 – 22:50
directly.
22:51 – 22:53
They are antiviral,
22:53 – 22:55
they're antifungal, they're
22:55 – 22:56
antibacterial,
22:56 – 22:59
and they inhibit the digestive
22:59 – 23:00
processes of insects.
23:01 – 23:02
So, they're anti -herbivory.
23:03 – 23:05
They have the capacity, this is
23:05 – 23:06
a the plant shifting from a
23:06 – 23:08
passive immunity to an active
23:08 – 23:09
immunity state where it is
23:09 – 23:11
actively resisting
23:11 – 23:14
infection by a whole host, an
23:14 – 23:15
array of different organisms.
23:16 – 23:17
And you know,
23:17 – 23:19
some of these compounds or
23:19 – 23:22
some of these plant essential
23:22 – 23:24
oil combinations are
23:24 – 23:25
so potent.
23:26 – 23:27
There was a couple of years ago,
23:27 – 23:29
a study was published on
23:29 – 23:29
cinnamon oil.
23:30 – 23:32
for the control or the treatment
23:32 – 23:34
of antibiotic resistant Staph
23:34 – 23:36
aureus. So we now have Staph in
23:36 – 23:37
hospital environments, which is
23:37 – 23:39
resistant to multiple types of
23:39 – 23:39
antibiotics,
23:40 – 23:41
different groups of antibiotics.
23:42 – 23:44
They studied cinnamon oil
23:44 – 23:45
extensively. They're now using
23:45 – 23:46
cinnamon oil as a cleaning agent
23:46 – 23:47
in some of these environments.
23:48 – 23:50
Cinnamon oil, so each of these
23:50 – 23:52
antibiotics has usually one
23:52 – 23:54
specific mechanism or mode of
23:54 – 23:55
action against Staph.
23:57 – 23:59
Cinnamon oil has over 300.
24:00 – 24:01
Do you think Staph aureus is
24:01 – 24:03
ever going to become resistant
24:03 – 24:03
to cinnamon oil?
24:04 – 24:05
No way.
24:06 – 24:06
Highly doubt it.
24:07 – 24:08
You know, too many compounds,
24:08 – 24:09
too many different mechanisms,
24:09 – 24:10
too many different modes of
24:10 – 24:11
action.
24:11 – 24:12
Cinnamon oil is just one that
24:12 – 24:14
what we do know that it is that
24:14 – 24:15
it is very potent,
24:16 – 24:18
but it just happens to be much
24:18 – 24:18
more
24:18 – 24:20
studied and much better studied
24:20 – 24:21
than many of these other
24:21 – 24:22
compounds. The reality is
24:23 – 24:25
a tomato plant or a corn plant
24:25 – 24:27
also produces these exact same
24:27 – 24:27
compounds.
24:28 – 24:29
Only when they're healthy,
24:30 – 24:30
though, correct?
24:30 – 24:31
When it has the proper, yeah,
24:31 – 24:33
when they have proper nutrient
24:33 – 24:34
density, there are certain
24:34 – 24:36
things that have to be there.
24:37 – 24:38
No, that's and that's
24:38 – 24:39
interesting. And that's and
24:39 – 24:41
that's really how they mind they
24:41 – 24:41
mind what they're needing,
24:42 – 24:43
right? Those exudates in the
24:43 – 24:44
soil are saying, Hey, I need
24:44 – 24:46
this. I need this nutritional
24:46 – 24:47
piece to my diet,
24:48 – 24:49
please provide it to me or
24:49 – 24:50
whatever that may look like.
24:51 – 24:52
But the reality is then those
24:52 – 24:53
plants are up taking that
24:53 – 24:54
nutrition,
24:55 – 24:56
building very, very healthy,
24:56 – 24:58
healthy, healthy, you know,
24:58 – 24:59
bio systems, not only in the
24:59 – 25:01
soil, soil, but also plant
25:01 – 25:02
defenses on the plant
25:02 – 25:03
all in one,
25:04 – 25:06
you know, um, not to mention
25:06 – 25:07
increasing bricks levels, things
25:07 – 25:08
like that. Correct.
25:09 – 25:10
I mean, it's the whole gamut.
25:11 – 25:12
Well, the bottom line
25:13 – 25:16
driver of this whole system
25:16 – 25:18
is the plant's photosynthesis
25:18 – 25:19
engine.
25:19 – 25:22
The plant regulates what happens
25:22 – 25:23
with the soil microbiome.
25:24 – 25:26
The plant vectors its own
25:26 – 25:28
microbiome inside the seed and
25:28 – 25:29
hopefully on the seed if it
25:29 – 25:30
hasn't been nuked with
25:30 – 25:31
fungicides and insecticides and
25:31 – 25:32
everything else.
25:33 – 25:33
And
25:33 – 25:35
so
25:35 – 25:36
there
25:39 – 25:40
are all of these conversations
25:40 – 25:42
about how we can regenerate soil
25:42 – 25:44
health by adding compost and by
25:44 – 25:45
adding different soil amendments
25:45 – 25:47
and balancing soil mineral
25:47 – 25:48
profiles. And
25:48 – 25:49
all of those things can be
25:49 – 25:50
beneficial.
25:50 – 25:52
I'm certainly made many
25:52 – 25:54
recommendations for those types
25:54 – 25:55
of amendments and those types of
25:55 – 25:56
approaches in different contexts
25:56 – 25:57
and settings.
25:58 – 25:59
But I think what is
25:59 – 26:00
underappreciated is
26:01 – 26:03
the fastest way to regenerate
26:03 – 26:04
soil and the fastest way to
26:04 – 26:06
regenerate a microbiome is to
26:06 – 26:08
have green plants that are
26:08 – 26:09
photosynthesizing.
26:10 – 26:11
When you do the arithmetic,
26:13 – 26:14
you know, if you go back into
26:14 – 26:15
the historical agronomic
26:15 – 26:17
literature in the 50s and 60s
26:17 – 26:18
and even through the 70s,
26:19 – 26:20
if you ask the agronomists of
26:20 – 26:22
the day the fastest way to build
26:22 – 26:23
soil organic matter,
26:23 – 26:25
the prevailing answer was the
26:25 – 26:26
fastest way to build soil
26:26 – 26:27
organic matter is to grow a corn
26:27 – 26:28
crop.
26:28 – 26:30
Today, somehow, we've come to
26:30 – 26:32
the expectation that the fastest
26:32 – 26:33
way to lose organic matter is to
26:33 – 26:34
grow a corn crop.
26:34 – 26:35
So what's different?
26:35 – 26:36
What's changed?
26:36 – 26:37
Well,
26:37 – 26:38
one of the significant things
26:38 – 26:39
that has changed is the quantity
26:39 – 26:40
of nitrogen that we use, but
26:40 – 26:41
that's another conversation.
26:42 – 26:43
But when you start looking at
26:43 – 26:44
the math,
26:45 – 26:47
the quantity of sugars
26:48 – 26:51
in the roots and root exudates
26:51 – 26:53
combined on
26:53 – 26:55
a healthy corn crop, roughly
26:55 – 26:57
double the quantity of sugars
26:57 – 26:58
removed in the grain.
27:00 – 27:01
And you
27:01 – 27:03
look at that and you say,
27:03 – 27:04
my goodness,
27:04 – 27:05
we're removing,
27:06 – 27:07
I don't know, I'm making up
27:07 – 27:09
numbers here. We're removing 5
27:09 – 27:11
,000 pounds of sugars per acre
27:11 – 27:12
on
27:12 – 27:14
a grain crop. That means we've
27:14 – 27:17
got 10 ,000 pounds of sugars at
27:17 – 27:17
the soil profile.
27:18 – 27:18
Now, again, the caveat,
27:19 – 27:20
the qualifier here is that this
27:20 – 27:21
is a healthy crop.
27:23 – 27:25
Not all crops and most crops
27:25 – 27:26
today don't do this because
27:26 – 27:27
they're not photosynthesizing
27:27 – 27:28
well enough.
27:28 – 27:29
But you look at that and you
27:29 – 27:30
say, well, my goodness, you
27:30 – 27:32
cannot economically afford to
27:32 – 27:34
put on enough compost or carbon
27:34 – 27:36
in any form to match with that.
27:37 – 27:37
You can't.
27:38 – 27:39
The best,
27:39 – 27:41
the most economical way to
27:41 – 27:43
regenerate soil is to regenerate
27:43 – 27:45
soil while we are growing a crop
27:45 – 27:46
or by growing cover crops.
27:46 – 27:47
That is how
27:47 – 27:49
You build carbon and build
27:49 – 27:50
sugars into the soil in the most
27:50 – 27:52
efficient and most effective and
27:52 – 27:54
inexpensive way possible.
27:54 – 27:56
Yes. You know, just a quick
27:56 – 27:58
sidebar, but I know there have
27:58 – 28:00
been several growers who we've
28:00 – 28:01
worked with over the years who
28:01 – 28:02
I've learned from.
28:04 – 28:06
They say that, and this is one
28:06 – 28:08
end of the spectrum was Chef's
28:08 – 28:09
Garden in Sandusky, Ohio.
28:09 – 28:10
On the other end of the spectrum
28:10 – 28:12
is Brian
28:13 – 28:14
McGuire from
28:14 – 28:16
Nebraska, who's a mainstream
28:16 – 28:17
crop farmer.
28:17 – 28:20
and very, very challenged
28:20 – 28:22
economics of corn and soybean
28:22 – 28:22
production.
28:23 – 28:24
They both have come to the same
28:24 – 28:25
conclusion.
28:25 – 28:27
The conclusion is that you
28:27 – 28:29
must treat your cover crops like
28:29 – 28:30
a cash crop.
28:30 – 28:32
They fertilize their cover crops
28:32 – 28:34
and they foliar feed their cover
28:34 – 28:35
crops.
28:35 – 28:36
Because if
28:37 – 28:39
they have figured out that if
28:39 – 28:40
they put,
28:41 – 28:42
I
28:42 – 28:43
don't know, I'm making up
28:43 – 28:44
numbers here, but if they put
28:44 – 28:46
$10 worth of nutrients and
28:46 – 28:48
foliar applications into that
28:48 – 28:48
cover crop,
28:49 – 28:51
that will be reduced 10 times to
28:51 – 28:55
20 times to 50 times over in the
28:55 – 28:57
nutrients that are contained in
28:57 – 28:59
that cover crop biomass and in
28:59 – 29:00
the root exudates for the
29:00 – 29:00
following crop.
29:01 – 29:03
So their cover crops are an
29:03 – 29:06
accelerator where they can put
29:06 – 29:08
on 10 pounds of nitrogen on a
29:08 – 29:10
cover crop and have that cover
29:10 – 29:11
crop contain 60 pounds of
29:11 – 29:12
nitrogen because they've
29:12 – 29:13
accelerated its growth
29:14 – 29:15
And it's vegetative biomass to
29:15 – 29:16
such a degree.
29:17 – 29:18
And they've both figured out,
29:18 – 29:20
and there's many other farmers
29:20 – 29:20
that have figured this out as
29:20 – 29:21
well, is that
29:22 – 29:24
fertilizing cover crops is the
29:24 – 29:26
least expensive way of adding
29:26 – 29:27
fertilizer into the ecosystem
29:27 – 29:28
because you get this
29:28 – 29:30
disproportionately larger
29:30 – 29:31
response in available nutrients
29:31 – 29:32
for the following crop.
29:33 – 29:34
Absolutely.
29:34 – 29:35
Absolutely. And I think that's
29:35 – 29:36
great that you say that.
29:36 – 29:37
And that's it. And that's what's
29:37 – 29:39
exciting about it is if you can
29:39 – 29:39
grow
29:40 – 29:43
a crop there, right, a cover
29:43 – 29:45
crop, whatever that may be.
29:45 – 29:46
And at the end of the day,
29:47 – 29:48
You're fixing, like you said,
29:48 – 29:51
you got $10 of fertilizer costs,
29:52 – 29:54
and you're putting 60 or 50 in
29:54 – 29:55
your pocket because it's
29:55 – 29:56
costing, you know, you're
29:56 – 29:56
getting 60 out of it.
29:57 – 29:58
I mean, think about it.
29:59 – 30:00
At the end of the day, price
30:00 – 30:02
-wise, not only that poundage of
30:02 – 30:04
nitrogen being put into the
30:04 – 30:05
system, all of those things.
30:06 – 30:07
Out where we're at, a lot of
30:07 – 30:08
people have a hard time growing
30:08 – 30:09
cover crops, John, and I'm going
30:09 – 30:10
to be honest with you.
30:11 – 30:12
Okay.
30:12 – 30:13
Yeah. I get it.
30:12 – 30:14
Yeah. You know, and so we run
30:14 – 30:16
into a lot of furrow irrigation,
30:16 – 30:17
things like that, you know, I
30:17 – 30:18
mean, we're really, we're in a
30:18 – 30:19
high desert,
30:19 – 30:20
let's be honest.
30:20 – 30:21
Right. But you're using furrow
30:21 – 30:22
irrigation. How much sense does
30:22 – 30:24
that make? It's hard.
30:24 – 30:25
I know. And that's the way the
30:25 – 30:26
system's designed at this point.
30:27 – 30:28
That's the hardest part, right?
30:28 – 30:30
It's, it's, it's fed out of the,
30:30 – 30:31
uh, the Gunnison tunnel and a
30:31 – 30:33
few other ways, a few other
30:33 – 30:33
water tributaries.
30:33 – 30:34
And I agree with you.
30:35 – 30:36
It's, it's really tough.
30:36 – 30:38
So at the end of the day,
30:38 – 30:40
If the guys that we're seeing
30:40 – 30:41
that are actually planting cover
30:41 – 30:43
crops on their soils,
30:43 – 30:44
the regeneration
30:45 – 30:47
happens at a much rapid pace,
30:47 – 30:49
much more rapid pace at the end
30:49 – 30:49
of the day,
30:49 – 30:50
you know,
30:50 – 30:52
and helps you deal with
30:52 – 30:53
irrigation water quality issues
30:53 – 30:54
as well. I don't know if that's
30:54 – 30:54
an issue for you.
30:54 – 30:56
But if it is, yeah, help with
30:56 – 30:57
that.
30:56 – 30:57
Well, that and then not only
30:57 – 30:58
that, but the guy that can take
30:58 – 31:00
in more photosynthesis on their
31:00 – 31:01
fields are the guy that's gonna
31:01 – 31:02
win, right?
31:02 – 31:04
That's the farmer, that's the
31:04 – 31:05
producer that who can capture
31:05 – 31:07
more light energy over an acre
31:07 – 31:08
of ground.
31:09 – 31:10
is going to be the guy that
31:10 – 31:12
grows more, more production,
31:13 – 31:15
healthier crops, all of those
31:15 – 31:16
things.
31:16 – 31:17
Would you agree?
31:17 – 31:18
Well,
31:18 – 31:19
yes, I would agree.
31:19 – 31:20
That's very true in the long
31:20 – 31:22
term. And we need to figure out,
31:22 – 31:24
I shouldn't say we need to
31:24 – 31:25
figure it out because we've
31:25 – 31:26
already, many people have
31:26 – 31:27
already figured it out.
31:27 – 31:29
But we need to describe how that
31:29 – 31:30
is possible, not just in the
31:30 – 31:31
long term, but also in the short
31:31 – 31:33
term. I mean, there's been far
31:33 – 31:34
too many conversations as far as
31:34 – 31:35
I'm concerned,
31:35 – 31:37
about this regenerative model of
31:37 – 31:38
agriculture being, oh, we'll
31:38 – 31:40
grow cover crops and we'll
31:40 – 31:41
rebuild soil health and we'll
31:41 – 31:42
get better crop results in five
31:42 – 31:43
years.
31:43 – 31:44
Well,
31:44 – 31:46
that doesn't work economically,
31:47 – 31:48
particularly not in the current
31:48 – 31:50
macroeconomic environment.
31:51 – 31:53
And so what needs to happen
31:54 – 31:55
is,
31:56 – 31:57
and this is something we've
31:57 – 31:59
obsessed over for the last two
31:59 – 32:00
decades, is what are the
32:00 – 32:03
agronomic recommendations that
32:03 – 32:05
can start guiding us in a
32:05 – 32:06
different direction, a state of
32:06 – 32:07
less dependency,
32:08 – 32:09
and that produce and deliver
32:09 – 32:11
immediate economic crop
32:11 – 32:13
response, immediate as in
32:13 – 32:15
current year, or in the case of
32:15 – 32:16
cover crops, subsequent season,
32:17 – 32:17
subsequent year,
32:18 – 32:19
there has to be an immediate
32:19 – 32:20
ROI.
32:20 – 32:22
And if it doesn't deliver an
32:22 – 32:23
immediate ROI in the current
32:23 – 32:25
marketplace, you can't expect
32:25 – 32:26
people to adopt it.
32:27 – 32:28
That's right.
32:29 – 32:30
They can't lose money.
32:31 – 32:33
And there's only, you know, I
32:33 – 32:34
mean, these farms, they can't.
32:34 – 32:35
And that's the thing is they
32:35 – 32:36
have loans, they have, you know,
32:36 – 32:37
payments to make,
32:37 – 32:39
you know, you do run into a few
32:39 – 32:40
of those ranches a few of those
32:40 – 32:41
farms that at the end of the
32:41 – 32:42
day, if you look at it,
32:43 – 32:44
they might have other sources of
32:44 – 32:45
income that they want to do this
32:45 – 32:46
to their land, correct?
32:47 – 32:49
But you can't have that lag.
32:49 – 32:50
You have to be able to show a
32:50 – 32:51
return on investment
32:51 – 32:52
immediately.
32:52 – 32:54
Yeah. The pieces that I
32:55 – 32:56
would say
32:57 – 32:59
depends a little bit on how you
32:59 – 33:00
define immediately, but our
33:00 – 33:02
experience has been that the
33:02 – 33:04
single greatest ROI
33:05 – 33:08
and most immediate ROI
33:08 – 33:09
is
33:09 – 33:10
seed treatments,
33:10 – 33:11
microbial inoculant seed
33:11 – 33:12
treatments.
33:13 – 33:15
We have a product called BioCoat
33:15 – 33:17
Gold that costs $4 an acre to
33:17 – 33:18
apply on corn and soybeans.
33:19 – 33:20
And the
33:20 – 33:22
ROI, as you can imagine, the ROI
33:22 – 33:24
threshold there is very small.
33:24 – 33:25
And the crop that
33:26 – 33:27
response that it produces
33:28 – 33:29
What is interesting about
33:29 – 33:31
biococcal is its consistency of
33:31 – 33:34
response, that it produces a
33:34 – 33:35
yield response the majority of
33:35 – 33:36
the time.
33:36 – 33:38
There's lots of microbinoculants
33:38 – 33:40
that produce tremendous
33:40 – 33:41
responses some of the time,
33:42 – 33:43
but what we really need is
33:43 – 33:45
product performance consistency.
33:46 – 33:47
So the applications that we
33:47 – 33:49
found to be consistent
33:49 – 33:50
performers are seed treatments,
33:51 – 33:52
well -designed foliar
33:52 – 33:53
applications,
33:53 – 33:55
And then in some settings, in
33:55 – 33:56
some contexts, treating your
33:56 – 33:59
cover crop as a cash crop for
33:59 – 34:00
the following crop also carries
34:00 – 34:01
a substantial ROI.
34:02 – 34:03
Isn't that how nature works?
34:04 – 34:05
I ask the question sometimes
34:05 – 34:07
because I want to really
34:07 – 34:08
understand things from a first
34:08 – 34:09
principles perspective.
34:09 – 34:10
And I ask the question, how did
34:10 – 34:12
we get to this place in
34:12 – 34:13
agriculture? How did we arrive
34:13 – 34:14
here?
34:14 – 34:16
And because a lot of this
34:16 – 34:18
knowledge of how to do things
34:18 – 34:20
differently was prevailing
34:20 – 34:22
knowledge and it was there were
34:22 – 34:24
many pioneers and voices in the
34:24 – 34:26
40s and 50s and 60s who said,
34:26 – 34:27
hey, we need to go down a
34:27 – 34:27
different pathway.
34:28 – 34:29
But we ended up not going down a
34:29 – 34:30
different pathway than the one
34:30 – 34:31
we've gone down.
34:31 – 34:32
And then I tried to wanted to
34:32 – 34:33
understand why.
34:34 – 34:35
And I'm
34:36 – 34:36
of the persuasion
34:37 – 34:40
that the foundational reason why
34:40 – 34:41
we've gone down this pathway
34:41 – 34:43
that we have in agriculture is
34:43 – 34:44
because of our intellectual
34:44 – 34:46
property protection framework.
34:47 – 34:49
You can patent a pesticide that
34:49 – 34:50
has a specific mechanism or mode
34:50 – 34:51
of action.
34:51 – 34:53
You can patent a GMO.
34:53 – 34:54
You can patent
34:54 – 34:56
all types of different
34:56 – 34:57
intellectual property.
34:57 – 34:59
You can patent one particular
34:59 – 35:01
bug, one particular microbe to
35:01 – 35:02
treat one particular disease.
35:03 – 35:04
You know what you can't patent?
35:04 – 35:06
You cannot patent or you cannot
35:06 – 35:07
protect the intellectual
35:07 – 35:09
property of having a consortium
35:09 – 35:10
of 20 or 30 different microbes
35:10 – 35:13
that in concert with each other
35:13 – 35:14
produce an interesting effect.
35:15 – 35:17
And yet that's how natural
35:17 – 35:18
ecosystems actually work.
35:19 – 35:20
And so we
35:20 – 35:24
have all of these various
35:24 – 35:25
products that are,
35:26 – 35:28
there are developed specific
35:28 – 35:30
mechanisms, specific modes of
35:30 – 35:31
action or specific microbes for
35:31 – 35:32
specific problems.
35:33 – 35:35
But what we should be doing is
35:35 – 35:36
we should be using broad
35:36 – 35:38
spectrums. We should be using
35:38 – 35:39
consortiums and groups of
35:39 – 35:40
microbes because that is how
35:40 – 35:41
natural ecosystems actually
35:41 – 35:42
work.
35:42 – 35:44
And I'm of the persuasion that
35:44 – 35:46
if there were an intellectual
35:46 – 35:47
property protection framework to
35:47 – 35:49
protect that, we would be much,
35:49 – 35:50
we would have gone down a much
35:50 – 35:51
further,
35:51 – 35:52
we would have gone down a very
35:52 – 35:54
different pathway 60 years ago.
35:54 – 35:55
We wouldn't have, if there were
35:55 – 35:58
a, if there were a pathway for
35:58 – 35:59
protecting
36:00 – 36:02
crop genetic improvements other
36:02 – 36:04
than GMOs, we probably wouldn't
36:04 – 36:05
have GMOs. So how do microbes
36:05 – 36:07
act as the engine that pushes
36:07 – 36:08
the plant up these levels?
36:08 – 36:10
We're talking back again about
36:10 – 36:11
your plant health pyramid.
36:11 – 36:12
Well, I'm trying to think of how
36:12 – 36:14
to compress this long
36:14 – 36:15
conversation down into a few
36:15 – 36:16
minutes.
36:16 – 36:18
The simple framework is that
36:19 – 36:21
we have been taught in
36:21 – 36:23
mainstream agronomy for the last
36:23 – 36:24
half
36:24 – 36:26
century or longer that
36:26 – 36:28
plants primarily absorb
36:28 – 36:30
nutrients as soluble ions from
36:30 – 36:32
the soil solution, where we have
36:32 – 36:33
calcium ions and magnesium and
36:33 – 36:35
sodium and nitrogen ions in the
36:35 – 36:36
soil solution and plants absorb
36:36 – 36:37
those.
36:38 – 36:38
And we're
36:39 – 36:40
now coming to understand that,
36:41 – 36:41
well, first of all, that is
36:41 – 36:42
true. Plants do have the
36:42 – 36:43
capacity to do that.
36:44 – 36:45
After all, that's how
36:45 – 36:46
hydroponics works.
36:47 – 36:49
And if we depend on that model
36:49 – 36:50
of plant nutrition,
36:51 – 36:52
that hydroponic model for
36:53 – 36:54
our agricultural nutrient
36:54 – 36:55
delivery, then
36:56 – 36:58
How much sense does that make,
36:58 – 36:59
particularly in the environment
36:59 – 37:00
that you're in, Brandon, in a
37:00 – 37:01
dryland environment?
37:01 – 37:03
Why would you rely on a
37:03 – 37:04
fundamentally hydroponic model
37:04 – 37:06
for a dryland environment
37:06 – 37:08
agriculture? It makes no sense,
37:08 – 37:09
because what
37:09 – 37:12
happens when you either A, have
37:12 – 37:13
too much water, or B, you have
37:13 – 37:14
too little water?
37:15 – 37:16
Your water -soluble nutrients
37:16 – 37:18
are either diluted or
37:18 – 37:19
unavailable.
37:20 – 37:21
And
37:22 – 37:23
over the last,
37:25 – 37:26
this has been knowledge that
37:26 – 37:28
actually has been around a long
37:28 – 37:29
time. There were pioneers who
37:29 – 37:30
pointed in this direction.
37:31 – 37:32
But the knowledge has really
37:32 – 37:34
accelerated in the last 20
37:34 – 37:35
years, the realization that
37:35 – 37:36
there is another model of plant
37:37 – 37:38
nutrient absorption.
37:39 – 37:40
And this model is based on
37:40 – 37:43
plants absorbing nutrition
37:43 – 37:44
through biology, where we
37:44 – 37:45
understand that
37:46 – 37:49
this is going to be a rather
37:49 – 37:50
crude oversimplification.
37:50 – 37:51
But for the interest of time,
37:51 – 37:53
I'll just oversimplify it to
37:53 – 37:54
say, I'll frame it in terms of
37:54 – 37:55
bacteria.
37:58 – 37:59
Yeah, but
37:59 – 38:01
I'll frame it in terms of
38:01 – 38:02
bacteria
38:02 – 38:03
are
38:04 – 38:05
bags of nutrients.
38:06 – 38:07
Bacteria are nutrient
38:07 – 38:08
transporters. They are nutrient
38:08 – 38:09
truckers.
38:10 – 38:12
Bacteria are in the soil.
38:12 – 38:13
They extract minerals from the
38:13 – 38:14
soil mineral matrix.
38:14 – 38:15
They incorporate them into their
38:15 – 38:17
own cells. Then they migrate
38:17 – 38:21
into the mycorrhizal fungi and
38:21 – 38:22
mycelial network or directly
38:22 – 38:23
into plant roots.
38:23 – 38:24
They have the capacity to do
38:24 – 38:27
both. and they move rapidly
38:27 – 38:30
through the mycorrhizal fungi
38:30 – 38:31
and mycelial network into the
38:31 – 38:33
root system and then they move
38:33 – 38:35
up through the plant to wherever
38:35 – 38:36
the plant needs them.
38:36 – 38:38
They unload nutrients and they
38:38 – 38:39
can go back into the soil and do
38:39 – 38:41
the exact same thing over again.
38:41 – 38:43
They're like a dump truck that's
38:43 – 38:44
moving nutrients back and forth.
38:45 – 38:46
Bacteria have the capacity to do
38:46 – 38:47
that. There is this very
38:47 – 38:49
different model of plant
38:49 – 38:49
nutrition.
38:50 – 38:52
based on the pioneering work of
38:52 – 38:53
Dr. James White and his
38:53 – 38:54
colleagues that they call the
38:54 – 38:55
Rhizophagy Cycle.
38:56 – 38:58
And there's been some other
38:58 – 38:59
interesting complementary work
38:59 – 39:00
to this as well.
39:00 – 39:01
But the short version is that
39:02 – 39:04
this model of biological
39:04 – 39:06
delivery of plant nutrients,
39:07 – 39:09
we are coming to understand can
39:09 – 39:11
also deliver the large majority
39:11 – 39:12
of crop nutrients,
39:13 – 39:15
even in high yielding
39:15 – 39:16
agricultural environments.
39:17 – 39:18
So this model,
39:19 – 39:20
This model already,
39:20 – 39:21
like if you have an
39:21 – 39:23
undomesticated ecosystem, if you
39:23 – 39:24
have wild forest soil,
39:27 – 39:29
the concentrations of soluble
39:29 – 39:32
nutrient ions in that type of
39:32 – 39:33
environment are very, very low.
39:34 – 39:35
Your levels of nitrates and
39:35 – 39:37
soluble potassium and
39:37 – 39:38
phosphorous and so forth are
39:38 – 39:39
going to be very, very low.
39:40 – 39:42
So this process, this rhizophagy
39:42 – 39:43
cycle in
39:43 – 39:45
that environment, in that
39:45 – 39:47
ecosystem delivers upwards of 90
39:47 – 39:48
% of a plant's nutrient
39:48 – 39:50
requirements.
39:51 – 39:53
And one of the first questions
39:53 – 39:54
that I asked Dr.
39:54 – 39:55
White when I was discovering
39:55 – 39:56
this process was, well,
39:56 – 39:58
how does this transfer into an
39:58 – 39:59
agricultural environment?
39:59 – 40:00
And to what degree can we
40:00 – 40:02
deliver a crop's nutritional
40:02 – 40:03
requirements with this response?
40:04 – 40:05
At the time I asked that
40:05 – 40:06
question half a dozen years ago,
40:06 – 40:07
we didn't know the answer.
40:07 – 40:08
But now,
40:09 – 40:10
based on a lot of field
40:10 – 40:11
experience, it's obviously, it's
40:11 – 40:12
difficult to measure this and
40:12 – 40:13
prove this definitively.
40:13 – 40:15
But you can look at the absence
40:15 – 40:17
of free soil ions in the soil
40:17 – 40:17
solution.
40:18 – 40:19
And you can look at the quantity
40:19 – 40:20
of nutrients are being removed
40:20 – 40:21
by the crop,
40:22 – 40:24
and you can do some basic
40:24 – 40:25
arithmetic,
40:25 – 40:28
and it's becoming apparent that
40:28 – 40:30
we can deliver the great
40:30 – 40:32
majority of high -yielding
40:32 – 40:33
crop's nutritional requirements
40:33 – 40:35
through this microbial feeding
40:35 – 40:36
process.
40:37 – 40:39
And when that happens,
40:40 – 40:42
these plants become very robust.
40:43 – 40:44
They have very robust immune
40:44 – 40:45
systems because
40:46 – 40:47
I find this intriguing, you
40:47 – 40:48
know, when you start really
40:48 – 40:49
studying
40:49 – 40:52
the plant and the plant
40:52 – 40:54
microbiome after a while, it
40:54 – 40:56
becomes difficult to tell where
40:56 – 40:57
the plant ends and the
40:57 – 40:59
microbiome begins.
41:00 – 41:02
We have all of these different
41:02 – 41:03
compounds,
41:04 – 41:05
such as
41:06 – 41:07
plant hormones, we call them
41:07 – 41:08
phytohormones,
41:09 – 41:10
and we have these plant
41:10 – 41:12
secondary metabolites that we
41:12 – 41:13
call phytonutrients.
41:14 – 41:17
Oh, but as time goes on, one by
41:17 – 41:19
one, we discover that
41:20 – 41:21
Perhaps, in fact,
41:22 – 41:24
the biology is synthesizing the
41:24 – 41:25
majority of each of those
41:25 – 41:26
compounds.
41:26 – 41:28
Perhaps it's biology that's
41:28 – 41:29
synthesizing the majority of
41:29 – 41:31
phytonutrients and not just the
41:31 – 41:32
plants alone. Like we know,
41:33 – 41:35
we have this entire group of
41:35 – 41:36
bacteria that
41:36 – 41:39
we call PGPRs, plant growth
41:39 – 41:41
-promoting rhizobacteria.
41:41 – 41:42
Why?
41:42 – 41:43
Because they synthesize
41:43 – 41:45
phytohormones such as cytokinins
41:45 – 41:47
and feed them to plants to
41:47 – 41:48
change the plant's behavior and
41:48 – 41:49
to change the plant's
41:49 – 41:50
expression.
41:51 – 41:51
Yeah.
41:53 – 41:54
It is
41:56 – 41:57
the microbes that are
41:57 – 41:58
synthesizing them, not just the
41:58 – 41:59
plants alone.
42:00 – 42:01
You know, as you get these
42:01 – 42:03
microbes built into plants,
42:03 – 42:05
like you said, they're robust,
42:06 – 42:06
they're energetic,
42:07 – 42:10
they have just amazing health.
42:10 – 42:12
On this spectrum of vibrantly
42:12 – 42:14
healthy versus pre -disease
42:14 – 42:14
versus a disease,
42:15 – 42:16
they are now on the vibrantly
42:16 – 42:17
healthy end of the spectrum.
42:18 – 42:18
And the reality is,
42:19 – 42:20
this
42:20 – 42:22
is difficult to convey to
42:23 – 42:24
people who've never observed it.
42:25 – 42:27
Most of us have never observed
42:27 – 42:29
crops that were vibrantly
42:29 – 42:30
healthy. I mean, my goodness,
42:30 – 42:31
most of us have never observed
42:31 – 42:33
crops that were resistant to
42:33 – 42:33
disease. They weren't even in
42:33 – 42:34
the pre -disease state.
42:35 – 42:36
Most of us have never observed
42:36 – 42:38
crops that were truly resistant
42:38 – 42:39
to diseases and insects.
42:39 – 42:40
And I hate to say it, some
42:40 – 42:42
farmers at the end of the day,
42:43 – 42:44
they aren't even observant of
42:44 – 42:45
any of their crops.
42:46 – 42:47
And that's when disease and
42:47 – 42:48
those things take over.
42:49 – 42:50
Some of them, you know?
42:51 – 42:52
What do you think about that?
42:53 – 42:55
Well, there's this Chinese
42:55 – 42:55
proverb,
42:56 – 42:57
something to the effect of,
42:58 – 42:59
the best fertilizer is the
42:59 – 43:00
farmer's footsteps.
43:01 – 43:01
Sure.
43:01 – 43:03
And I think us being in the
43:03 – 43:05
field and being observant, I
43:05 – 43:07
don't work with many farmers who
43:08 – 43:09
aren't out in their fields.
43:09 – 43:10
I mean the people that we work
43:10 – 43:11
with are out there, they're
43:11 – 43:12
paying attention.
43:12 – 43:15
So I don't have the experience
43:15 – 43:16
of the comment that you made,
43:16 – 43:19
but the reality is it is our
43:19 – 43:21
presence and our observation in
43:21 – 43:23
the field that is fundamental to
43:23 – 43:24
determining our or to
43:24 – 43:25
influencing our degree of
43:25 – 43:27
success in whatever path or
43:27 – 43:28
direction we're going down.
43:29 – 43:31
It's our care and intention and
43:31 – 43:32
stewardship that matters.
43:32 – 43:33
Absolutely.
43:33 – 43:34
And that's going to take it into
43:34 – 43:35
the long, long term.
43:35 – 43:36
Let's walk into the next part of
43:36 – 43:38
this, the valley of death.
43:38 – 43:39
Let's think about this.
43:40 – 43:42
Many growers fear a yield drag
43:42 – 43:43
when moving over, right, to a
43:43 – 43:44
regenerative practice, John.
43:45 – 43:47
We all know, you know, when we
43:47 – 43:48
talked about this a little bit
43:48 – 43:49
before, but if you would explain
43:49 – 43:51
how to navigate the first one to
43:51 – 43:52
three years of transition.
43:53 – 43:54
If you could lay that out, I
43:54 – 43:55
think that's the most important
43:55 – 43:56
part, John, because I think
43:56 – 43:58
that's what's holding some of
43:58 – 43:58
these guys back.
44:00 – 44:04
The art and the science of
44:04 – 44:06
regenerative agronomy that
44:06 – 44:09
delivers an immediate ROI...
44:10 – 44:11
figuring
44:11 – 44:13
out how to navigate
44:14 – 44:16
providing an on -ramp for
44:16 – 44:18
biology and
44:18 – 44:20
biological nutrition while
44:20 – 44:22
simultaneously providing an off
44:22 – 44:24
-ramp for electrolyte nutrition.
44:24 – 44:25
That's it. That's the
44:25 – 44:27
fundamental bottom line is
44:27 – 44:29
figuring out how you balance
44:29 – 44:30
those two pieces
44:30 – 44:31
and
44:31 – 44:33
I'll frame it in terms of
44:33 – 44:35
nitrogen management on a corn
44:35 – 44:36
crop because that's a common
44:36 – 44:38
crop and a common scenario that
44:38 – 44:39
people can easily relate to.
44:39 – 44:41
You can adapt the information to
44:41 – 44:42
all types of other contexts.
44:43 – 44:43
Perfect.
44:43 – 44:44
So
44:44 – 44:45
traditional
44:46 – 44:47
nitrogen management.
44:47 – 44:49
Let's just say for the sake of
44:49 – 44:51
discussion that in a particular
44:51 – 44:54
given region, soil type, crop,
44:54 – 44:55
rainfall patterns and so forth
44:55 – 44:57
that it's common to apply 200
44:57 – 44:58
units of nitrogen to
44:58 – 45:00
a corn crop, the majority of
45:00 – 45:01
that being pre -plant.
45:01 – 45:03
Perhaps it's fall applied,
45:03 – 45:04
perhaps it's spring applied, but
45:04 – 45:05
it's all applied either at
45:05 – 45:06
planting or before planting.
45:07 – 45:08
That
45:09 – 45:09
type of environment,
45:10 – 45:12
you've shut down any opportunity
45:12 – 45:15
for microbial collaboration with
45:15 – 45:16
that plant because you have this
45:17 – 45:20
abundance of free nutrients and
45:20 – 45:21
free electrolytes in the soil
45:21 – 45:21
solution.
45:22 – 45:24
So the way to manage that
45:24 – 45:26
and to produce a different
45:26 – 45:28
response is to time the
45:28 – 45:29
applications differently and to
45:29 – 45:31
change the amounts to only match
45:31 – 45:33
peak crop needs.
45:33 – 45:35
and peak crop demand when the
45:35 – 45:36
crop actually needs it.
45:36 – 45:38
So, we change the applications
45:38 – 45:40
in time and we change them in
45:40 – 45:41
efficiency.
45:41 – 45:43
So, here's an example.
45:43 – 45:45
Actually, I'll add one more
45:45 – 45:46
thought, one more frame of
45:46 – 45:47
reference and that is
45:47 – 45:50
depending on who you listen to,
45:50 – 45:52
which university, which part of
45:52 – 45:53
the country, the
45:53 – 45:55
nitrogen requirement to grow a
45:55 – 45:56
bushel of corn is anywhere from
45:56 – 45:59
1 to 1 .3 pounds per bushel of
45:59 – 46:00
corn.
46:00 – 46:02
And yet, there are many
46:02 – 46:03
biological farmers
46:04 – 46:06
are using cover crops or perhaps
46:06 – 46:07
they're using manure compost
46:07 – 46:08
applications. They're
46:08 – 46:09
experimenting with different
46:09 – 46:10
things.
46:09 – 46:12
It's very common to get to
46:13 – 46:15
only be able to account for 0
46:15 – 46:17
.65 to 0 .75 pounds of nitrogen
46:17 – 46:18
per bushel of corn.
46:18 – 46:20
And there are many growers who
46:20 – 46:21
are pushing that envelope even
46:21 – 46:22
further and they're still
46:22 – 46:25
producing average to better than
46:25 – 46:26
regional average yields with
46:26 – 46:28
only a half a pound of nitrogen
46:28 – 46:29
per bushel of corn that they can
46:29 – 46:30
account for.
46:31 – 46:32
So there might be some coming
46:32 – 46:33
from biological nutrition that
46:33 – 46:34
they're not accounting for, but
46:34 – 46:35
that's what they can account for
46:35 – 46:36
in the system.
46:37 – 46:38
So
46:38 – 46:39
the
46:40 – 46:43
way that I'll just give an
46:43 – 46:44
example of a type of
46:44 – 46:46
recommendation that we would
46:46 – 46:47
make in our consulting at AEA
46:48 – 46:49
when I'm running completely
46:49 – 46:50
blind. I know nothing.
46:50 – 46:52
I know nothing about the soil
46:52 – 46:54
context, the crop context, the
46:54 – 46:55
history, the irrigation.
46:55 – 46:56
I'm just,
46:56 – 46:57
I'm just, this is, this is a
46:57 – 46:58
starting point.
46:58 – 46:59
This is a template and a
46:59 – 47:01
starting point from which to
47:01 – 47:02
adapt. Yeah, absolutely.
47:04 – 47:07
I would start with 40 units of
47:07 – 47:07
nitrogen
47:07 – 47:10
maximum at planting in the form
47:10 – 47:12
of ammonium and nitrate, no urea
47:12 – 47:13
or
47:13 – 47:14
limited urea, I shouldn't say no
47:14 – 47:16
urea, but I don't want 100 % of
47:16 – 47:17
it urea.
47:17 – 47:18
And I'm making that caveat
47:18 – 47:19
because everything else for the
47:19 – 47:21
rest of the season, I want as
47:21 – 47:21
urea.
47:23 – 47:24
And so
47:24 – 47:26
there's some reasons for that.
47:26 – 47:27
I won't go into the detail in
47:27 – 47:28
the time that we have here, but
47:28 – 47:31
then I want to add and
47:32 – 47:33
that nitrogen,
47:35 – 47:36
is ideally applied at planting
47:36 – 47:37
or before planting.
47:38 – 47:40
And I want it off to the side of
47:40 – 47:41
the seed, not in the furrow.
47:42 – 47:43
Preferably it can be strip
47:43 – 47:44
tilled, it can be in a two by, I
47:44 – 47:45
don't want it any closer than a
47:45 – 47:47
two by two. I would prefer it
47:47 – 47:48
even be farther away than a two
47:48 – 47:49
by two, but that's the closest I
47:49 – 47:50
want it to be.
47:51 – 47:51
And I
47:52 – 47:54
want that, we've, we've put
47:54 – 47:55
together what we call a nitrogen
47:55 – 47:56
efficiency program.
47:56 – 47:57
People can find it online.
47:58 – 47:59
But the short version is we
47:59 – 48:00
combine that
48:00 – 48:02
with sulfate
48:03 – 48:04
in some form, either ammonium
48:04 – 48:06
sulfate or thiosulfate, whatever
48:06 – 48:07
makes sense for the given
48:07 – 48:08
application.
48:08 – 48:11
We want a minimum of a 10 to 1
48:11 – 48:12
nitrogen to sulfur ratio.
48:12 – 48:14
And then we also add, to make
48:14 – 48:15
substances,
48:15 – 48:16
a humicarb at 3 % of the
48:16 – 48:18
solution, and we add rebound
48:18 – 48:19
molybdenum at a pint per acre.
48:19 – 48:21
And the reason for those things
48:21 – 48:23
is it drives and accelerates the
48:23 – 48:25
conversion of the applied
48:25 – 48:27
nitrogen into microbial
48:27 – 48:28
nitrogen. So bacterial cells are
48:28 – 48:29
now holding it.
48:30 – 48:32
And that means that it is
48:32 – 48:32
available,
48:32 – 48:34
but no longer water soluble.
48:34 – 48:35
It doesn't leach.
48:36 – 48:37
And so we're putting on a
48:37 – 48:38
smaller dose.
48:39 – 48:41
And my preference would be to
48:41 – 48:42
put on less than 40 pounds.
48:43 – 48:45
I would like to go down to as
48:45 – 48:47
little as 10 to 20, but I'm not
48:47 – 48:47
comfortable making that
48:47 – 48:49
recommendation without more
48:49 – 48:50
information and knowing what the
48:50 – 48:51
history is and where the soil is
48:51 – 48:52
coming from.
48:52 – 48:53
That's perfect.
48:53 – 48:54
Then the
48:54 – 48:56
second application would be
48:56 – 48:59
somewhere between V3 and V5,
48:59 – 49:00
depending on soil context and
49:00 – 49:01
continuity,
49:01 – 49:03
an additional 40 pounds,
49:04 – 49:07
side dressed, vertigated, top
49:07 – 49:08
dressed, whatever fits the
49:08 – 49:09
application or the farming
49:09 – 49:10
context. And
49:13 – 49:15
This 40 pounds is again combined
49:15 – 49:16
with our nitrogen efficiency
49:16 – 49:17
program.
49:17 – 49:19
And I want a minimum in these
49:19 – 49:20
two applications, I want a
49:20 – 49:22
minimum of 25 pounds of sulfur
49:22 – 49:23
per acre.
49:23 – 49:25
And we can, we know that we can,
49:25 – 49:28
we can count the first 25 pounds
49:28 – 49:30
of sulfur, you can count as the
49:30 – 49:31
equivalent of a nitrogen unit in
49:31 – 49:32
terms of the crop response that
49:32 – 49:33
they get.
49:34 – 49:36
So then we've now applied a
49:36 – 49:37
total of 80 pounds.
49:37 – 49:39
And then I want to come back and
49:39 – 49:41
plan for two foliar
49:41 – 49:42
applications.
49:44 – 49:46
And this is different from what
49:46 – 49:47
lots of farms have been doing
49:47 – 49:49
historically and extremely
49:49 – 49:49
valuable.
49:50 – 49:51
So I want two foliar
49:51 – 49:52
applications, the first one
49:52 – 49:53
around tasseling and the first
49:53 – 49:54
one around R1.
49:57 – 49:59
Those two foliar applications
49:59 – 50:01
will each be 10 units of
50:01 – 50:02
nitrogen
50:02 – 50:04
as melted urea,
50:04 – 50:06
as low biuret urea.
50:08 – 50:11
There's been a number of farmers
50:11 – 50:12
that we've worked with, people
50:12 – 50:13
who've done interesting work,
50:14 – 50:15
documented their research quite
50:15 – 50:16
well.
50:16 – 50:19
Our rule of thumb is that at
50:19 – 50:21
minimum, most conservatively,
50:21 – 50:25
every pound of nitrogen that is
50:25 – 50:26
applied as a foliar,
50:26 – 50:28
and in terms of foliar urea,
50:28 – 50:30
will produce the same crop yield
50:30 – 50:31
response as four pounds of
50:31 – 50:33
nitrogen applied to the soil.
50:34 – 50:35
At best, that's the most
50:35 – 50:36
conservative. We've even had
50:36 – 50:38
some crops go all the way up to
50:38 – 50:39
one to seven ratio.
50:40 – 50:42
So now we're
50:42 – 50:44
doing these two applications and
50:44 – 50:45
ideally we also like to add some
50:45 – 50:46
of this nitrogen efficiency
50:46 – 50:48
program to these foliars as
50:48 – 50:49
well.
50:49 – 50:50
So now you think about what I
50:50 – 50:50
just described.
50:51 – 50:52
We did 40 units of N,
50:53 – 50:54
40 units of N, 10 and 10.
50:54 – 50:56
We've got 100 units of N and 25
50:56 – 50:57
pounds of sulfur.
50:57 – 50:58
With that application,
50:59 – 51:00
you will get a greater crop
51:00 – 51:03
yield and higher quality than
51:03 – 51:05
you will with 200 pounds of
51:05 – 51:06
nitrogen applied up front.
51:07 – 51:09
And your costs, if you figure in
51:09 – 51:11
the application costs
51:11 – 51:13
and for additional further
51:13 – 51:14
applications, you figure in the
51:14 – 51:15
nitrogen efficiency program,
51:16 – 51:17
your cost per acre is going to
51:17 – 51:18
be roughly a wash.
51:19 – 51:20
but you've applied half the
51:20 – 51:21
quantity of N.
51:21 – 51:23
Now that's the first half of the
51:23 – 51:24
coin. You now have an off -ramp
51:24 – 51:25
for nutrition,
51:26 – 51:26
for electrolyte nutrition.
51:27 – 51:28
Now the next step is the on
51:28 – 51:29
-ramp for biology.
51:29 – 51:31
Now you add BioCoat Gold as a
51:31 – 51:32
seed treatment.
51:32 – 51:33
Perhaps you add
51:34 – 51:36
another microbial inoculant in
51:36 – 51:37
the furrow with your starter.
51:37 – 51:40
And that is the on -ramp for
51:40 – 51:40
biology piece.
51:41 – 51:43
And then you do that year one.
51:43 – 51:45
Year two, you come back based on
51:45 – 51:46
what you've learned and you
51:46 – 51:48
adapt. Instead of 40 units of N,
51:48 – 51:49
maybe you're now down to 10
51:49 – 51:50
units of N in the furrow.
51:50 – 51:52
and 30 units side risk.
51:52 – 51:53
But usually like if you're going
51:53 – 51:54
to hone something in.
51:55 – 51:56
you're going to be taking soil
51:56 – 51:57
samples, you know, throughout
51:57 – 51:58
this.
51:58 – 51:59
What I'm what I'm giving you is
51:59 – 52:00
a template starting point.
52:01 – 52:02
All of these starting point
52:02 – 52:03
recommendations would be revised
52:03 – 52:04
and adapted based on SAP
52:04 – 52:06
analysis or soil analysis
52:06 – 52:06
results. Absolutely.
52:07 – 52:08
Perfect.
52:08 – 52:08
All right, let's hear it.
52:08 – 52:10
So keep on going, buddy.
52:10 – 52:11
So we're on year two now.
52:11 – 52:13
So year two, you're looking at
52:13 – 52:15
further reducing usually.
52:15 – 52:16
OK, again, there's context
52:16 – 52:18
dependent, but usually you're
52:18 – 52:19
looking at further reducing the
52:19 – 52:20
nitrogen applications at
52:20 – 52:22
planting and perhaps
52:23 – 52:24
putting more in the side dress.
52:24 – 52:25
And it's actually
52:26 – 52:28
Getting the nitrogen number as
52:28 – 52:29
low as possible at planting is
52:29 – 52:30
actually quite important.
52:31 – 52:33
We don't want it at zero in most
52:33 – 52:36
cases. We want a touch of
52:36 – 52:38
nitrate because nitrate really
52:38 – 52:41
drives the synthesis of a
52:41 – 52:43
whole range of different plant
52:43 – 52:45
phytohormones, the cytokinins,
52:45 – 52:47
the gibberellins, the auxins,
52:47 – 52:47
etc.
52:48 – 52:50
If we want to develop this large
52:50 – 52:52
root system and plant biomass
52:52 – 52:54
very quickly, we want a small
52:54 – 52:55
dose of nitrates.
52:55 – 52:56
The key word being small.
52:57 – 52:59
You can do this with two pounds
52:59 – 53:00
of nitrates per acre.
53:00 – 53:01
It doesn't take much.
53:04 – 53:05
If
53:05 – 53:08
you
53:09 – 53:11
keep nitrogen levels low in
53:11 – 53:12
those first couple of weeks
53:12 – 53:13
after germination,
53:14 – 53:17
you develop not zero, small
53:17 – 53:18
amounts of nitrates, but not an
53:18 – 53:19
overabundance of nitrogen.
53:20 – 53:22
the biology will drive the
53:22 – 53:24
development of this extensive,
53:25 – 53:26
robust root system.
53:27 – 53:29
And you get this large root
53:29 – 53:30
biomass and you get very good
53:30 – 53:32
microbial colonization.
53:32 – 53:34
And now the plant has
53:34 – 53:36
established that community.
53:36 – 53:39
It hasn't been, you haven't
53:39 – 53:41
created a drug dependency for
53:41 – 53:41
the rest of its life.
53:42 – 53:43
You've set it up.
53:44 – 53:46
It's like baby animal receiving
53:46 – 53:47
colostrum.
53:47 – 53:49
You've set it up where you have
53:49 – 53:50
this microbial knock on it.
53:50 – 53:53
It's now set up for success with
53:53 – 53:55
this microbiome for the rest of
53:55 – 53:56
its life.
53:56 – 53:57
And this is why I would actually
53:57 – 53:59
prefer to have smaller amounts
53:59 – 54:01
of nitrogen at planting and
54:01 – 54:02
larger amounts in the side dress
54:02 – 54:04
because it gives us that initial
54:04 – 54:06
critical several week window to
54:06 – 54:08
set up the microbiome so that we
54:08 – 54:10
have an opportunity for greater
54:10 – 54:11
success for the rest of the
54:11 – 54:12
season.
54:12 – 54:13
Yeah. What about year three?
54:13 – 54:15
Do you have one more step or is
54:15 – 54:15
that it?
54:16 – 54:17
And then you're pretty well on
54:17 – 54:18
your, you're pretty well on your
54:18 – 54:19
way at that point, John.
54:20 – 54:21
At this point, you're well on
54:21 – 54:23
your way, but also we
54:24 – 54:25
make all these decisions going
54:25 – 54:26
forward based on data.
54:26 – 54:27
That's great. Like what does the
54:27 – 54:29
data tell us? How, how much can
54:29 – 54:30
we reduce? How much can we
54:30 – 54:31
reduce further?
54:31 – 54:32
Like what else is in the system?
54:32 – 54:33
Or is there nitrogen coming from
54:33 – 54:34
cover crops? There's,
54:35 – 54:36
there's lots of variables in
54:36 – 54:38
this, but you make, you just,
54:39 – 54:40
You don't guess.
54:40 – 54:41
I think that's been one of the
54:41 – 54:43
foundational aspects of our
54:43 – 54:44
success in our consulting work
54:44 – 54:46
at AEA is you do not guess about
54:46 – 54:47
something that is possible to
54:47 – 54:48
measure.
54:48 – 54:49
It is possible to measure a
54:49 – 54:51
soil's ability to contribute
54:51 – 54:51
nitrogen.
54:51 – 54:53
It's possible to measure a
54:53 – 54:54
crop's nitrogen status.
54:54 – 54:56
And so you don't guess.
54:56 – 54:58
And it's because of that.
54:59 – 55:01
You started this question by
55:01 – 55:02
asking me about the Valley of
55:02 – 55:03
Death.
55:04 – 55:05
I'm of the persuasion, there is
55:05 – 55:07
this narrative that
55:08 – 55:10
You should expect to see yield
55:10 – 55:12
losses and yield drag the first
55:12 – 55:13
couple of years during a
55:13 – 55:14
regenerative agriculture
55:14 – 55:14
transition.
55:16 – 55:18
I vehemently disagree.
55:19 – 55:20
If you do,
55:21 – 55:22
it is not the result of
55:22 – 55:23
regenerative agriculture.
55:24 – 55:25
It's the result of poor
55:25 – 55:27
agronomic management decisions.
55:27 – 55:28
I'd
55:28 – 55:30
have to agree 100 % with you on
55:30 – 55:31
that. Might take some time to
55:31 – 55:32
set up the entire system.
55:32 – 55:34
But the bottom line is the ROI
55:34 – 55:35
is going to be back in your
55:35 – 55:36
pocket. You're going to be
55:36 – 55:37
making more money as a producer.
55:38 – 55:39
And that's really where the
55:39 – 55:40
money should be going.
55:40 – 55:40
If you ask me,
55:41 – 55:42
you know, at the end of the day,
55:43 – 55:44
to farmers, to producers, to
55:44 – 55:45
ranchers,
55:46 – 55:48
the ROI starts going back in the
55:48 – 55:49
right person's pocket.
55:49 – 55:50
Well,
55:50 – 55:50
when you think about all the
55:50 – 55:51
less money that you're spending
55:51 – 55:52
on nitrogen,
55:53 – 55:55
spending on nutrients now in the
55:55 – 55:56
first couple of years,
55:57 – 55:58
we
56:00 – 56:01
every every farm in every
56:01 – 56:03
context is unique.
56:04 – 56:06
But in the first couple of
56:06 – 56:08
years, we often don't expect to
56:08 – 56:09
see
56:09 – 56:12
inputs go down significantly.
56:12 – 56:13
They just go to different
56:13 – 56:14
places. They're going to cover
56:14 – 56:15
crop seed or they're going to
56:15 – 56:17
microbial inoculants or they're
56:17 – 56:18
going to more sulfur and less
56:18 – 56:19
nitrogen. They're going to the
56:19 – 56:20
nitrogen efficiency program.
56:20 – 56:21
They're going in different
56:21 – 56:22
places.
56:23 – 56:24
But also we
56:25 – 56:27
do not expect to see yields go
56:27 – 56:27
down.
56:28 – 56:30
We expect pesticide applications
56:30 – 56:31
to go down and
56:32 – 56:33
we expect profitability to go
56:33 – 56:34
up.
56:34 – 56:35
So
56:35 – 56:37
that often that increased
56:37 – 56:38
profitability comes from
56:38 – 56:40
incremental yield advantages and
56:40 – 56:42
it comes from reduced pesticide
56:42 – 56:43
requirements.
56:43 – 56:45
and then over time it comes from
56:45 – 56:46
reduced inputs.
56:47 – 56:49
We don't, we don't, we're not,
56:49 – 56:51
I'm not particularly aligned
56:51 – 56:52
with
56:52 – 56:53
low inputs year one.
56:55 – 56:55
Reducing,
56:56 – 56:57
look,
56:57 – 56:59
there is no other industry,
56:59 – 57:01
there is no other place outside
57:01 – 57:02
of agriculture and region of
57:02 – 57:04
agriculture where you have this
57:04 – 57:06
idea that you can save yourself
57:06 – 57:06
successful.
57:08 – 57:09
Don't save yourself successful.
57:10 – 57:12
It's in how do you make the
57:12 – 57:14
smart and wise investments.
57:15 – 57:16
particularly in a transition
57:16 – 57:17
period.
57:18 – 57:19
And that's what all those are
57:19 – 57:20
cover crops,
57:21 – 57:22
biological inoculants.
57:22 – 57:23
It's all an investment at the
57:23 – 57:24
end of the day.
57:24 – 57:25
These aren't things that are
57:25 – 57:26
going to be here this year and
57:26 – 57:27
then gone next.
57:28 – 57:29
You know,
57:28 – 57:30
I mean, when it comes down to
57:30 – 57:31
it, and you start to put inputs
57:31 – 57:32
onto a farm,
57:32 – 57:33
and that's one of the things we
57:33 – 57:34
talked to, you know, you know,
57:35 – 57:36
the growers we work with in the
57:36 – 57:37
ranches we work with.
57:38 – 57:39
It's the same thing.
57:40 – 57:41
Hey, man, are you if you're
57:41 – 57:41
going to spend this money?
57:41 – 57:43
Are you going to put like you
57:43 – 57:44
said, cover crops on and gain 60
57:44 – 57:45
or
57:45 – 57:46
50
57:46 – 57:48
pounds, right? What are you what
57:48 – 57:49
are you going to do?
57:48 – 57:49
Correct.
57:49 – 57:51
And at the end of the day, john,
57:51 – 57:52
would you I
57:52 – 57:54
mean, you you look at it and you
57:54 – 57:55
think about it.
57:57 – 57:58
And the amount of money that
57:58 – 57:59
they're spending is just an
57:59 – 58:00
investment. So where do you want
58:00 – 58:01
to just put your money you want
58:01 – 58:02
to put in investments or direct
58:02 – 58:03
expenses?
58:04 – 58:06
Well, many farms, many farms
58:06 – 58:07
today don't have the financial
58:07 – 58:08
resources to put significantly
58:08 – 58:11
to make any investments, even
58:11 – 58:12
though there's an argument that
58:12 – 58:13
can be made from a soil
58:13 – 58:14
amendments perspective.
58:14 – 58:15
I mean,
58:15 – 58:16
we have so many agricultural
58:16 – 58:18
soils now that are completely
58:18 – 58:19
depleted of cobalt and
58:19 – 58:21
molybdenum and selenium and all
58:21 – 58:22
these important trace minerals
58:22 – 58:23
that add a great deal of
58:23 – 58:24
economic value.
58:25 – 58:27
But regenerating the
58:27 – 58:28
levels of those
58:28 – 58:30
is an investment.
58:30 – 58:32
It belongs on the CAPEX side of
58:32 – 58:33
the ledger,
58:33 – 58:35
not in operating expenses.
58:36 – 58:39
and so that's that's yeah that's
58:39 – 58:41
an interesting conversation
58:41 – 58:42
that's worth digging into but
58:42 – 58:44
let's get down to some closing
58:44 – 58:45
and rapid fire what do you say
58:46 – 58:48
yep go for it one piece of
58:48 – 58:50
advice for a grower who only has
58:50 – 58:51
the budget to change one thing
58:51 – 58:53
this season what should it be
58:53 – 58:54
the one thing john
58:55 – 58:57
seed treatments and 10 books 10
58:57 – 58:59
books yep
58:59 – 59:02
read good books okay i like it
59:02 – 59:03
all right the
59:04 – 59:05
region legacy what does john
59:05 – 59:07
want the landscape to look like
59:07 – 59:08
what do you want it to look like
59:08 – 59:09
john in 20 years
59:09 – 59:11
Well, in 20 years,
59:11 – 59:13
my dream would be that there is
59:13 – 59:15
no such thing as a region of
59:15 – 59:16
agriculture and conventional
59:16 – 59:17
agriculture.
59:17 – 59:18
It's just agriculture.
59:19 – 59:20
It's the way we do it.
59:20 – 59:21
Where to follow you, if you
59:21 – 59:22
would?
59:22 – 59:23
Websites,
59:23 – 59:24
social media,
59:24 – 59:25
where to get your book?
59:25 – 59:26
Most anywhere.
59:27 – 59:28
I have a personal website at
59:28 – 59:30
JonKempf .com. I have a blog up
59:30 – 59:31
there.
59:32 – 59:33
I have a podcast of the Region
59:33 – 59:34
of Agriculture podcast.
59:34 – 59:36
You can find me on many of the
59:36 – 59:37
mainstream social media
59:37 – 59:38
platforms.
59:39 – 59:40
Well, John, no, I appreciate it
59:40 – 59:41
for sure. You know, and our
59:41 – 59:42
audience, you know,
59:42 – 59:44
I just want to ask our audience
59:44 – 59:45
if you would follow us, you
59:45 – 59:47
know, like this, share it with
59:47 – 59:48
everybody. This right here is
59:49 – 59:50
what agriculture is.
59:50 – 59:51
It's not the future.
59:51 – 59:52
We're not living in the future.
59:53 – 59:53
It's now.
59:54 – 59:55
And it was like this even years
59:55 – 59:57
ago, but it just took time to, I
59:57 – 59:59
feel like, blossom completely.
59:59 – 1:00:00
But this is
1:00:00 – 1:00:02
moving forward the way
1:00:02 – 1:00:04
agriculture will be done.
1:00:04 – 1:00:06
Talking to John about it, having
1:00:06 – 1:00:07
him spill out his knowledge, we
1:00:07 – 1:00:08
appreciate it, John.
1:00:09 – 1:00:10
We appreciate that you've shared
1:00:10 – 1:00:11
it with our audience and just
1:00:11 – 1:00:13
taking the time to literally
1:00:13 – 1:00:15
spend it with us and sharing
1:00:15 – 1:00:16
this wisdom.
1:00:17 – 1:00:18
Yeah, glad to be here.
1:00:18 – 1:00:19
Thanks for having me on,
1:00:19 – 1:00:20
Brandon. I look forward to more
1:00:20 – 1:00:20
conversations in the future.
1:00:21 – 1:00:22
Absolutely. Happy growing season
1:00:22 – 1:00:23
to everyone. Yeah, same to you.
1:00:24 – 1:00:25
Happy growing season to you and
1:00:25 – 1:00:26
we definitely appreciate you,
1:00:26 – 1:00:27
John. Have a great day.
1:00:37 – 1:00:39
The team at AEA and I are
1:00:39 – 1:00:40
dedicated to bringing this show
1:00:40 – 1:00:42
to you because we believe that
1:00:42 – 1:00:44
knowledge and information is the
1:00:44 – 1:00:45
foundation of successful
1:00:45 – 1:00:46
regenerative systems.
1:00:47 – 1:00:49
At AEA, we believe that growing
1:00:49 – 1:00:51
better quality food and making
1:00:51 – 1:00:52
more money from your crops is
1:00:52 – 1:00:53
possible.
1:00:53 – 1:00:55
And since 2006,
1:00:55 – 1:00:56
we've worked with leading
1:00:56 – 1:00:57
professional growers to help
1:00:57 – 1:00:58
them do just that.
1:00:59 – 1:01:00
At AEA, we don't guess.
1:01:01 – 1:01:02
We test. We analyze.
1:01:03 – 1:01:04
And we provide recommendations
1:01:04 – 1:01:06
based on scientific data,
1:01:06 – 1:01:07
knowledge, and experience.
1:01:08 – 1:01:09
We've developed products that
1:01:09 – 1:01:10
are uniquely positioned to help
1:01:10 – 1:01:12
growers make more money with
1:01:12 – 1:01:13
regenerative agriculture.
1:01:13 – 1:01:15
If you are a professional grower
1:01:15 – 1:01:17
who believes in testing instead
1:01:17 – 1:01:17
of guessing,
1:01:18 – 1:01:19
someone who believes in a
1:01:19 – 1:01:20
better, more regenerative way to
1:01:20 – 1:01:21
grow,
1:01:21 – 1:01:24
visit advancingecoag .com and
1:01:24 – 1:01:26
contact us. see if AEA is right
1:01:26 – 1:01:26
for you.
1:01:27 – 1:01:28
Thank you for listening, and we
1:01:28 – 1:01:29
look forward to working with
1:01:29 – 1:01:30
you.
